What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

stever

You noticed that too eh?

stever

The List: 4 Sweet Subcompacts (Straightline)

stever

A reporter is interested in talking with recent buyers of the Fiat 500. If you care to share your comments, please email your daytime contact info to pr@edmunds.com no later than Wednesday, July 27, 2011.

Thanks!

motorcity6

We have a dealer in Sarasota, however no sign of any Fiats roaming the streets..Lots of "SmartforTwo" roaming around Sarasota County..Really puzzling why anyone would spend $15k for anything this small to save a few bucks on gas..Every time I pass one on the highway, I make sure that I crawl by it for one wouldn't want to upset the air dynamics surrounding this little toy..

ateixeira

I don't think that's why someone would buy a 500.

Get it to be noticed, have fun, zip around town, park in small places, etc.

nippononly

I'm starting to see them in my area. Women at work just swoon over them when they have seen one. I have to admit, they are cute.

bobw3

here are two reasons Americans don't generally like small compacts as compared to the rest of the world:
1. Americans are much more obese, so many simply don't fit in a small car.
2. Other big cars: in Europe, there aren't nearly as many big cars/SUV on the roads, so when you're in a small car in Europe, you driving more of an average sized car. You don't feel "tiny" compared to the other traffic around you.
3. Gas price: gas is much cheaper in America, so there's not the same incentive as in the rest of the world.
4. Insurance: in Eruope, engine size affects your insurance rate, so there's again more incentive to go small.
5. Parking lot size: In most of the world, parking lot spaces are smaller, so it's a lot more difficult to park a full-sized American car.
6. Street size: much wider streets here.

michaellno

I'm starting to see them in my area.

Same, too, here in Colorado. I think the Fiat dealer just opened up a month or two ago - only one in the state, AFAIK.

I've also seen a handful with the rental car barcode stickers on them, so I know they are going out as fleet sales as well.

ateixeira

Babe magnet, then. :shades:

ateixeira

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/09/20/tata-finally-shows-off-its-4-6m-nano-gold-plu- s/

stever

A reporter is interested in talking with someone who considered buying a small car, but instead bought a Ford, GM or Chrysler SUV or truck after deciding that the size sacrifice wasn't worth the savings at the pump. If your experience fits this description, please send a brief overview and contact information to pr@edmunds.com by Sunday 11/27.

nippononly

My case is exactly the opposite! I decided the gas savings were worth it, and just bought a new subcompact (the new Yaris)....

$5/gallon projected by spring? Not too hard to figure this one out. Besides, small cars are a LOT more fun to drive.

tifighter

Whoa, wait a minute. Nippon pulled the trigger after all that comparing, and there's no story? Details needed...

nippononly

Well the story is that I have a friend whose car was repo'ed, and I gave him my Echo so he could get to work and wouldn't lose his job.

Which left me in the market for a new commute car.....and since I test drove all those cars, I have also driven the Fiat 500 (too slow and a funny seating position), and they have totally redesigned the Yaris. In doing so, they fixed some of the issues I had when comparing it to the Fit. The new Yaris SE model is a great handler (the downside to that is a slightly stiff ride, a tradeoff I was EAGER to make), I like the looks a lot more, and they finally have the features I want in the SE package.

Add to that the fact that I wanted to go ahead and nobody anywhere near me had a manual shift Fit Sport, and the decision was made. I have had it 3-1/2 weeks and I'm already at 1600 miles, and loving every minute. :-)

Now if there were a Hyundai dealer within an hour of my house, I would have test driven the Accent SE before going ahead, but I like to have a dealer in my county. I do see lots of the new model around on the street. A couple of years back I drove the old model, and that was a fun drive.

ateixeira

Congrats. How's the MPG so far?

Manual trans?

nippononly

OF COURSE manual trans! :-)

The running average for mileage is only at 38, which is about the same as winter fuel economy was in the Echo, but I was hoping it would go up a bit....however, since it's a ton more fun to drive, I am perfectly satisfied with the mileage just the way it is. :-)

One thing I liked about the Echo which I was also hoping would be true of the new Yaris was that you didn't see one on every corner, but I have already seen several riding around and it has only been out a month or two!

hpmctorque

Congratulations!

Did you do a comparison test drive of the regular Yaris vs. the SE, and, if so, is there a significant difference in the ride characteristics?

Also, how does the Yaris compare with the Ford Fiesta, in your opinion?

nippononly

Toyota is not yet building the Yaris LE (cheaper model with the smaller rims and the softer suspension) so there was no opportunity to compare. However, I have no doubt I would not be interested in the cheaper trims, because I like the look of this one with the alloys and the spoiler, this one has firmer seats with more bolstering, and I won't buy a car without cruise.

One thing they dramatically improved, at least for the SE trim, is the seats - they actually have lumbar support now and hold you in place when cornering. It is a much firmer, more supportive seat in general. I would say the seats are now on par with those in the Fit Sport, and the issues I was critical of when I drove the 2011 Yaris last year are gone.

As far as the Fiesta? I would say the Fiesta wins the battle of the interiors, although the Yaris has a soft-touch dash now on the top trims, which I like. The Fiesta has nicer-looking materials and more style inside.

However, the Fiesta is slow to rev and feels super slow to drive. The ride is comfortable at the expense of handling. The steering is light and non-communicative. All of which will be appreciated by people coming out of bigger cars, but run totally against all my preferences in a car.

They say that the new Fit is coming maybe as soon as the end of this year, and supposedly the Yaris itself will get a new powertrain with a 6-speed manual in a couple of years, so I hope I don't wind up regretting pulling the trigger now, but I do very much like the one I bought, and besides, there's always the option to trade in a few years if they make major improvements to either model by then. ;-)

hpmctorque

Thanks for your comments.

motorcity6

"Fix It Again Tony"

maxx4me

Stuart, can you shed any light on a new gasoline Fit by the end of the year, or were you just speaking about the EV?

nippononly

No I am not really following Fit news that closely, but there was a rumor that Honda might do the next model revision of the Fit early, meaning the 2012 MY might be the last before the new model. If so, I would expect to see the new model in the fall this year. But seeing as they did make some improvements to the 2012 for North America, I am thinking that any new model would probably be Japan-only for the first year.

As for the Fit EV, is this looking like a reality for the North American market? I thought we got the Insight instead, which is for all intents and purposes a Fit hybrid? I'm thinking that my next car, before 2020, could be an EV if they could just get the range up.

maxx4me

Thanks very much for that post. I do hope a new refresh comes out this year since Honda has missed the ball on a few things in the Fit and are getting waaaayyyy behind Hyundai in the head turning quotient. Having been doing some serious car shopping in this car class as of late (Fiesta, Focus, Sonic, Rio 5, Accent, Forte 5, Fit, Juke), I am embarrassed that these car companies do not take 10 seconds to listen to what customers want, and just blast out whatever they want. Here are some simple items that should be in every car. Shame on the car companies for not having them on each car seeing that it is now 2012:
1. 6 speed automatic transmission
2. hands free phone
3. auto headlights and daytime running lights
4. all radio, phone and cruise control buttons on the steering wheel
5. rear seat headrests that lower down into the seat when not in use to increase the visibility to the rear window.
6. a normal sized rear window. Half of the rear windows are so small, they might as well just do away with them altogether.

Honda's Fit is becoming a dinosaur real fast. With such a small engine, their horsepower/torque and gas consumption numbers look pathetic against Hyundai. No center arm rest/console? Are you kidding me? No hands free phone unless you fork over the money for the navigation system. That's a trick car companies used to play over a decade ago. In general, the Fit is an amazing car which just needs some minor tweeking to blow the competition away. Their main selling point is over 8 years of Jazz and Fit models worldwide with hardly one reliabilty issue; now that's amazing.

stickguy

I agree about the trend toward over styled rear ends that impede visibility out the back.

Other than that, just don't complain when the cost goes up on these cars (when they add all the extra features).

and there are some on your list that other people will not have an interest in (or paying for!)

nippononly

...like me: of those six items there are only 2 I would want - large window glass for good outward visibility and cruise/radio on the steering wheel.

I would pay not to have an automatic and also not to have the price-raising-for-no-good-reason DRLs and auto headlights.

But Fit is behind the competition in the fuel economy and features arena, that's for sure. There's only so far the Magic Seat can take it before it must one-up the competition somehow.

OTOH it is still one of the best drivers in the segment.

spacemaned

"I am embarrassed that these car companies do not take 10 seconds to listen to what customers want, and just blast out whatever they want. Here are some simple items that should be in every car."

That's YOU. Not ME. I love to shop cars and have driven every vehicle on your list. Just bought a Fit base with manual trans. Which is what I wanted. It meets your #3, #5 & #6. I believe than manual transmissions are better than automatics in EVERY way. More people should drive them. I believe that EVERY car model should have one available. But that's what I feel.

The Ford Fiasco was very disappointing to me. It is a one-person vehicle. I'm only 5'8", my wife is 4'10" and WE couldn't get into the back seat. Lots of bells and whistles but totally non-ergonomic. You NEED controls on the wheel, because your eyes need to leave the road to do anything.

The other cars were beyond my price point for my use (mainly, my kids' use). Our second choice was the new Hyundai Accent sedan. Lots of value in that car. Looks nice enough for now, but will blend in two years from now. The hatchback is sharp, but the storage space "stats" don't match up to the real-world usability. The 6-speed manual was FAR better than the AT. Plenty of pep. Willing to say it's the best value $15-16K car on the road,

My kids liked the Fit base because it had what they need, no more, no less. Very ergonomic and versatile. You don't need to reach for anything nor take your eyes off the road to change a control. They can schlep their friends or their stuff or both comfortably. We have a another car with Bluetooth and the bells & whistles you mentioned. But we've hooked up the mobile phones to our Fit's USB with no prob. I don't really want them on the phone while driving anyway. I TOTALLY agree that it needs a 6th-gear.

For a car with many selections of trims and plenty of room, the Nissan Versa can be had at many different pricepoints. Unfortunately, a manual trans is only available on their bareboned base. The Versa is a fine functional car, but no "sizzle" at all.

As far as EPA ratings, they are a very loose guideline. Heck, I averaged 44 mpg on a long road trip with 3 soccer players, my 2007 Altima (6-speed man trans, of course) trunk crammed with their gear, suitcases, and a large full icebox. Depends on the driver and the conditions.

I'll allow you your "needs". But I don't want you to be my spokesman to the manufacturers. And I won't be yours.

maxx4me

thank goodness for that.

nippononly

is more common options made available. The one that stands out for me is a factory moonroof. If lots of compact and midsize car buyers want them, why wouldn't lots of subcompact buyers potentially want them? And yet we have exactly two models out of many - the Fiesta and the Mini (and now the 500, although I think of that as more of a microcar) - that offer one.

Until recently it was hard to find cruise control, a must-have for me and I'm glad that is more widely available now. You pick your favorite option - HIDs perhaps? Or a NAV system? Perhaps a power seat or a leather interior?

There is no reason those couldn't be options on top trims of subcompact cars, and I'm sure some people would buy them - in fact, it might make more people interested in subcompacts that end up buying a larger car instead because of the lack of optional features on the smaller cars.

And consider that for all of these models sold elsewhere in the world, all those options are widely available and many are even standard on top trims. It is only in the U.S. that the subcompact buyers gets the shaft.

stickguy

i am with you. I like smaller cars, but have to eliminate a lot of them because I insist on a moonroof.

I also really want a power driver's seat, though I can live with manual when they don't use the ridiculous ratchet system that dumps you forward when you raise the seat.

plekto

It appears to be a modern phenomenon, though. The Volvo 240, for example, was available with all of the luxury goodies. Sunroof, leather, and so on. It seems as if they are just being cheap and cutting corners with smaller cars, which is a shame.

OTOH, you can get a C class with everything on it, as well as a few cars like the Mini and the upcoming ATS. Of course, they aren't cheap. But then again, neither was the 240 when it was being sold (25K for a car in the 80s was a LOT of money)

andre1969

And consider that for all of these models sold elsewhere in the world, all those options are widely available and many are even standard on top trims. It is only in the U.S. that the subcompact buyers gets the shaft.

I don't think it's just subcompact cars, but all smaller cars. Just the American way it seems. They'll usually introduce something cool on a bigger, more profitable car, but then it takes awhile for it to trickle down to smaller cars.

For instance, back in the day, I don't think there ever was a Dodge Dart or Plymouth Valiant built with power windows. You could get them on bigger cars, and they were standard at some point on Cadillacs, Lincolns,and Imperials. And, while rare, you could get them on midsized cars. My '76 Grand LeMans, for example, has power windows. And for its era, it was a midsize.

But, even by '74-76, when they started offering Valiant Broughams and Dart Special Editions that had enough velour, shag, and plood to rival a Cadillac, they were still afflicted with crank windows.

Oh, and on the subject of sunroofs, that's one point of contention I have with domestic cars. It's not hard to find something mainstream and somewhat modest like a used Accord or Camry with a sunroof. But, when it comes to a Buick Park Ave, Lucerne, Caddy DTS, Lincoln Town Car, etc, well, good luck with that. Seems like sunroofs are the exception, rather than the rule.

fintail

I think lately for those large cars - especially DTS, TC, and Lucerne, a lot go to fleets - and fleet buyers don't want to pay for a moonroof. Sometimes it is an easy clue - a late model used CTS or DTS with base wheels and no moonroof probably wasn't owned by a private party when new.

nippononly

It seems as if they are just being cheap and cutting corners with smaller cars, which is a shame.

I agree. And it's going to hurt the cause of subcompacts in a much more vital way very soon, as DI engines make their way into all the compact cars, but not into subcompacs for cost reasons. The result will be that the compacts have better fuel economy than the smaller lighter cars, which is a ridiculous state of affairs, and yet it will exist. And it will turn people off the small cars even more, even though the smaller cars will still be a few thousand $$ less to buy.

Another factor which impacts subcompacts - labor cost and currency exchange. Most of the compacts available here are now built here or in Mexico, while the subcompacts are almost all made in places with expensive labor and bad exchange rates like Japan or South Korea (except the Sonic, bless its Ohio-built soul, and the Mexican Fiesta)

ateixeira

Veloster and BRZ had useless back seats, bummer. Veloster has no head room, go over a speed bump and the rear passenger could be knocked out cold. The BRZ had no room for legs.

The CT was also tight. Same for the 500 (had to try again now that the Abarth is out).

The Kia Rio was also disappointingly small, half the size of the Kia Soul next to it. Wonder if the Accent is much better? The Kia also had poor visibility.

The Impreza surprised as very roomy with toe room under the seat to boot.

The Cruze was also comfy, but not the Volt, too cramped in back. The Leaf is much roomier.

Just some small cars I had a chance to sample at the auto show. Dart was closed up, so was the Spark.

nippononly

The one that really surprised me was the CT. I could barely fit myself in the front seat and close the door, and I would not have been comfortable for long if I had to ride that way. And I don't have big space requirements, I just a bought a YARIS for goodness' sake!

stickguy

I sat in a Yaris 4 door, and it was surprisingly roomy and comfortable up front. I would not, however, sit in the back.

ateixeira

Yaris was comfy, indeed. I like that they moved the gauges to the driver's side more, too.

Sales were up 64% so consumers like the new one, too.

andre1969

I sat in a Yaris 4 door, and it was surprisingly roomy and comfortable up front. I would not, however, sit in the back.

I wonder how the new Yaris compares to the previous model? I didn't think the previous Yaris was bad inside, considering how small it was. It didn't seem much, if any smaller than the Corolla and, IIRC, the driving position was a bit better...higher seat, steering wheel less obtrusive, etc.

nippononly

Funny thing is, even though it doesn't give the impression this would be true, a 5' 9" person like me can "sit behind myself" (adjust the driver's seat to fit me, then climb in the back seat behind it) in the Yaris without chafing knees on the driver's seat. :-)

The problem in the front of the Lexus CT is the dash and center console are WAY too intrusive, leaving no space for knees, elbows, etc. And even the footwell comes up short - did they stuff a second battery pack between the firewall and the engine compartment or something?

toyotafan6

Bought a 2012 Yaris LE 3 DR almost 2 wks ago - so far, so good! It's very roomy in the front (haven't sat in back yet) and I am very happy with my choice of car - am averaging almost 33 mpg so far -

I had a 2001 Corolla LE before and I loved it too - just sold it to a friend.

One thing I have noticed is that the Yaris' engine is not as quiet as the Corolla, it's not loud, just not as quiet - but it handles well and I like the fact that I am sitting a little higher off the ground = good visibility.

The interior design is very nice and well laid-out - the exterior looks good too IMO - this is only the 3rd car I've had in the last 26 yrs so I spent alot of time researching before deciding on the Yaris - my color is Wave Line Pearl, a sky blue color - beautiful!

I've always like smaller cars and the Yaris is just what I wanted.

maxx4me

I think you made a great choice. I just sat in a Yaris LE today. It is now #2 on my list of cars I will buy in the next year. The Fit is still on top. As for the Yaris LE, if Edmunds and Toyota show that the LE comes with hands free phone, why are there no buttons on the right side of the steering wheel? Did you get bluetooth/phone in your car? I'm going to another dealer to ask again since the one I went to today was useless. I also want to see if the driver's visibility improves with the two door versus the four door. The B pillar blocks my view when I put the seat all the way back. Since the door will be bigger on the two door model, I'm curious to see if it offers more over the shoulder viewing of traffic on the driver's side.

toyotafan6

Yes, I believe the Bluetooth capability comes standard with the LE - it comes with alot of stuff I probably won't use - I do like the fact that I can change radio stations or adjust the volume from the steering wheel...

The door is certainly "longer" on the 2-door (3 DR liftback), I have to be extra careful when opening it when parked next to another car - I rarely have passengers in the back and the 3 DR was a little less $ than the 5 DR so I opted for it -

Unfortunately, I did a really dumb thing a couple of days after I picked up the car - I hope you car guys can tell me that what I did hasn't damaged the engine -

The shifter for the automatic is not straight up and down like what I'm used to, it's a little of a zig-zag - to the left of "D" for drive it has "3" for third gear, when driving home one night I noticed on the display it had the "3" but when I looked down at the lever it appeared to be in the correct position for Drive - so like an idiot I drove 24 miles home in 3rd gear! I remember thinking:"why does it have a 3 when I'm in drive?" After I realized what I had done I looked in the owners manual (in the section for driving tips for a new car) and it said not to drive "continously" in low gear and not to exceed 53 mph - I don't think I went faster than that - I didn't sleep much that night worrying that I damaged the transmission, the car only had about 150 miles on it when this happened -

I asked a few people at work the next day if they thought it hurt anything and they all said "no" - one would think at my age I would know when I'm in 3rd gear but for some reason it didn't sink in at the time...I haven't noticed any weird sounds or anything and no indicator lights have come on so hopefully it's OK -

The day I went to pick it up I wanted to drive it around some because I had not driven this particular car (the dealer had to bring the car in from another dealership because he didn't have this color) and after I started driving it I noticed the parking brake was on! Luckily I hadn't gone very far or fast - then while driving to work a couple of days later there had been a wreck up ahead that had just been cleared away and I drove over some broken glass in the road (I couldn't go around it or I would have) so I was worried I'd get a flat tire but that didn't happen, by the way the tires are Goodyear Assurance (pretty good tires).

Anway, so far I am very happy with the Yaris - I think you get alot of bang for the buck and I'd recommend it - I've only had it 12 days so far - my last car I had for 11 years and the car before that I had for 15 years - so it's probably somewhat premature for a recommendation -

ateixeira

it said not to drive "continously" in low gear

They probably mean 1-2, not 3.

I think you're fine. Let's keep in mind a short while ago transmissions didn't have overdrive gears, so they drove like that all the time!

If the parking brake is still strong now, I'm sure that's OK as well. You're just learning a new car, I'm sure you'll be more careful/aware from now on.

maxx4me

Yep, driving in 3rd won't be a problem other than on your gas mileage. You did no damage. I sat in a 2 door Yaris today to check out where the B pillar would be. It definitely is in a better place than the 4 door model. Yes, the doors are significantly heavier and you have to watch as it swings open. No dealers are getting LE models with hands free phone. The right side of the steering wheel is blank, where the buttons would go. I have asked two dealerships to explain why both the toyota and edmunds websites state that the LE model has standard phone when they ones they have shipped from Japan do not. No SE models have been shipped yet. I also sat in another Honda Fit that had navigation; my first time seeing it. I hate to pay all that money for a navigation screen when all I want is hands free phone. Still, the Honda Fit remains at the top of the heap among all the cars I've sat in. The driver's visibility and interior cargo space are the clinchers.

andre1969

I think you're fine. Let's keep in mind a short while ago transmissions didn't have overdrive gears, so they drove like that all the time!

I think a lot of automatic transmissions nowadays might even be "smart" enough that if you have the selector in too low of a gear, as you get up to higher speeds, it will eventually upshift on its own, to keep from over-revving the engine.

Actually, I think lugging the engine...being in too tall of a gear, is actually worse, but I don't even think it's possible to do that with an automatic, as it should downshift on its own when the load is great enough. I guess it can still be an issue with a stick, though.

nippononly

Hi there! The LE and SE (I have an SE) do have the Bluetooth controls, but they are not on the steering wheel as in most other cars - they are on the stereo itself, which I'm told was a cost-saving move for Toyota. Given that it is a small car I suppose it doesn't matter that much, but then I don't use the Bluetooth functionality, so I wouldn't know firsthand.....

Not sure why you would think they aren't shipping SEs yet, BTW. I have had my SE almost two months. It's probably a regional thing though - LEs are only just starting to show up in my area, and most of them have the rental agency barcode thingy in the window.

maxx4me

I'll have to go back and look at the LE again. I did not see any phone button or any indication of bluetooth functionality. Of course the dealers have no clue.

stever

"Subcompacts, as the smallest cars are known, are taking up a growing share of the Texas car market, the nation's second largest after California. They made up 4.5% of about 910,000 total vehicle sales last year, up from 2.7% in 2007, according to Edmunds.com, the auto-shopping firm. As of Tuesday, Fiat of Austin sold more 500s this year than any other Fiat dealership in the country."

Showdown on the Texas Highways (WSJ)

nippononly

...and on the microcar front, I saw Smart was up like 48% for the year so far.

I have had cause to visit my local Toyota dealer a couple of times in the last few weeks, and the same 3 Yarises, 2 white and 1 black (all automatics), have been sitting there all along. I don't know how Yaris is doing nationally but I think sales are slow in my neck of the woods....

OTOH, sales results are beginning to show compact cars climbing the charts to beat out midsize cars, which is a big change. Hopefully subcompacts will not be far behind in making a sales chart climb of their own!

ateixeira

ForTwo sales up 50% means they sold 2 cars last year, THREE whole cars this year. LOL

Yaris actually did quite well nationally, sales up 78%:

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/toyota-motor-sales-reports-increase-in-f- - ebruary-2012-sales-141064693.html

Just a guess, but could those be demo models that the dealer isn't allowed to sell?

(Edit: 3611 Yaris to 769 ForTwo sales, no contest)