What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

samm43

"truth" over 2 decades ago perhaps
It is unfortunate that even though diesel costs more per gallon, that people still lack the ability to use the calculator to get the favorable result.

Sam

stever

People have long memories and it's hard to change them, even if they are being a bit irrational. Remember the Oldsmobile diesel?

But you don't even have to go back that far in time - plenty of horror stories in the Who is Happy with their Jeep Liberty CRD? discussion.

What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car? is one place where you'll find like-minded fans (not all of us there are fans though ).

fezo

I would love a diesel car but no one that makes a car I both like and can afford makes them.I still can't quite pull the trigger on a VW based on pst experience. I was waiting for the diesel Accord and then they canned it.

samm43

Liberty owners have issues with their automatics. TC being the biggest offender. And they have EGR valve issues, but that is not the fault of it being a diesel. I have heard that owners who know what to attend to and when, absolutely love their Liberty, but most wish it had either a decent auto or a good stick.

Sam

stever

The one that stuck with me was Winter - he hasn't posted for a month, so maybe that was part of the deal with Chrysler when they finally agreed to help him out with a replacement engine.

Here's the first post in the series (if you go back, you'll see a lot of his posts about his enjoyment of the SUV and his maintenance work).

winter51, "Jeep Liberty Diesel" #11074, 2 Dec 2010 4:14 am

Let me know if you want more examples; my skimming over the years indicates that the CRD engine isn't any more bulletproof than a typical gasser.

ateixeira

Wow, $26,616 for a TDI DSG.

Do you still get that $750 tax rebate?

They have only 5.

They have 59 Prius starting at $23,459. Those will sell quickly with current gas prices, but you gotta wonder if Toyota will have enough supply to replace them.

samm43

Let me know if you want more examples

No thanks, that ought to do it.

I think that using the term CRD is doing a disservice to other CR diesels, when referring to the VM Motori. Either it is a bad engine in that defective parts (con rods) made their way into them, or Chrysler painted it with one or two too many strokes with the cheap brush.

It is no wonder some people are shy to trust a diesel in this country when we have the likes of GM and Chrysler rowing the oil boat backwards for all they're worth.

Sam

stever

What's sad is that many of those Jeep Liberty owners really like their rides. Many had hoped to drive them for 300,000 miles.

samm43

Yes, and the attitudes seem to be surprisingly forgiving and patient overall. I'd have been livid. It is no wonder they sourced the next diesel they offered from MB.
I wonder if Mitsubishi didn't have an appropriate engine for the Grand Cherokee? I'm sure they would have for the Liberty though. Perhaps Chrysler has no shared interest with Mitsubishi any longer.

But in defense of the VM Motori, I read a post there about someone deciding to finally get the thermostat replaced. The onslaught of cold weather and no heater was probably the only reason. I got the impression it had been stuck open for quite some time. Engines aren't designed to run at 100º F. But on the other hand, stuck open thermostats were another common issue. We will never know if this was due to Chrysler's finishing touches or VM design.

Sam

samm43

I have noticed a common theme lately in looking at entry level small cars. It seems that if you want cruise control, you had better also want an automatic. The Accent is this way as is another one I can't recall the name of just now, (Yaris) but the Rio did not restrict cruise control with a stick. I give them credit for that but after sitting in one it will not be on my short list if I went the economy car route. In fact, the most impressive cars I sat in for comfort at the Kia dealer was the Forte and the Sorento. They had no Sportage. The Rondo, Soul and even the Boreggo which is an expensive Korean car with power seats, all fell short on comfort. Although some will no doubt say the opposite as we all are different shapes and want different things.

Another common theme and is very discouraging, so much so I might pursue a new/used 08 or earlier car, is that in practically all the new cars I have checked out lately, all had active head restraints that are way too aggressively tilted forward for anyone who sits with a fairly upright seat back. This trait makes no discernment between North American badged, Japanese, Korean or German in the cars I have sat in so far. The Jetta, Cruze and Sorento seemed to be the least intrusive even though it still is too far forward. I think we are going to start seeing crash statistics with worse whiplash results due to these being too aggressively designed, because people are turning them around backwards, thereby dodging their effectiveness and of course being far worse than the old style.

But getting back to my cruise control question I was going to ask you guys. Since all new cars are drive by wire now, is there a place under the hood that still uses a cable mechanism somewhere that eventually gets results at a throttle body that you could install an aftermarket cruise control? The type I am wondering about, has to be able to hook onto the throttle linkage somewhere and I think that to try to do it under the dash at the pedal itself will be too hard and complicated. Any thoughts on this?

Sam

cannon3

My feelings are many of these are just plain ugly, with the exception of the Mini. Why can't small vehicles be attractive? The Nissan Versa, Fit, Yaris line are just plain ugly. The Hybrids are the same way. The Prius and Insight.. Ugly!!!. Styling/Character was lost on these.

tifighter

A new review from TTAC of the 500.

iluvmysephia1

with this subcompact, brudders?



Name the first thing that comes ta yer mind negative about the new world order Ford Fiesta. Do y'all like this mustard-ee color, for instance?

samm43

The front fog light accent area. Too dominate. But the signature shape of them carried over onto the new Focus was a good idea. I am ok with the mustard, but feel it is a fad color that may not endure the test of time. Ford is infamous for this though, with their lime green and purple Mustangs, and carmel colored boot buckle straps/interiors on the old T Birds for example.

Sam, (being a bit picky).

plekto

It''s the crazy high belt line. I bet that despite it's puny size that it's a disaster to park and has a blind spot as large as a SUV.

hpmctorque

Rear seat leg room is too restricted, even for a subcompact, making back seat hardly usable for adults, except for short distances. Compare with the Fit, Versa and Yaris. Of course, the Fiesta has certain advantages over these competitors, too. It depends on which attributes you value.

As for that particular color, it's interesting. Color is all a matter of taste. Buy what you like.

explorerx4

In person, that color is a lot more metalic looking.

iluvmysephia1

It's more metallic looking in person? Interesting, Captain Kirk.

ateixeira

My friend bought one in that Eggplant purple color. Had to have the transmission replaced already, but other than that she likes it. I took a quick spin and it drives nicely.

samm43

Auto?

ateixeira

The new 6 speed, yes. The dealer told her there was another one with an issue IIRC in Arizona or something.

They did replace the whole shebang and gave her a 100k mile warranty on it.

fezo

Had to have the transmission replaced already, but other than that she likes it.

Other than that,Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?

ateixeira

LOL, guilty.

whachaknow

Now that we've discussed the Ford Fiesta how about some other new models like the Chevy Sonic or Cruze? I understand they're both supposed to be totally new, not just re-treads of the Cobalt and Aveo. Also, has anyone heard anything about Toyota releasing a hybrid Yaris in the next couple years?

ateixeira

Thankfully those are new and improved models.

Dunno about a Yaris hybrid - Toyota will have a Prius C slotted below the regular Prius, though it may be loosely based on the Yaris platform.

nippononly

And the Prius C will certainly be a subcompact, but it will also be as drab to drive as the regular Prius. Nothing to celebrate there, except what will probably be the best dollars to mpg ratio of any car on the market.

hpmctorque

Have you driven a Fiesta, and, if so, what was your impression? How would you rank it compared with the other small cars you've driven?

I rented one, and was favorably impressed.

nippononly

The Fiesta is the opposite of everything I like about small cars, which is why it will be a big hit with most Americans I suspect.

There is no steering or road feel, the ride is that of a larger car, handling isn't very good, and it feels very slow (and I believe it has been proven to actually BE quite slow, although the only fast subcompacts are the Fit and the Mini). OTOH it has the nicest interior and the best features list of any of the subs right now, and it is the quietest at speed.

Fiesta would be about third on my list right now, with the Mazda2 and the Fit ahead of it. I have great hopes for the Abarth coming this Christmas, and I wonder if Toyota will make any effort in its redesign of the Yaris, also coming this fall. Early reports from Japan where the Yaris is about to go on sale are that the car is substantially improved.

hpmctorque

Interesting. I haven't driven a Mazda 2, but I've driven the Fit, and came away with a different conclusion than you did. Between the Fit and the Fiesta, I prefer the latter, in terms of driving dynamics. The big advantage of the Fit vs. the Fiesta is interior space, especially rear seat leg room.

I'm also anxious to see the '12 Yaris.

stickguy

wonder how the Sonic is going to compare (when is that due to arrive anyway?). Has to be better than an Aveo. Of course, a decent Trabant might be better than an Aveo.

igozoomzoom

"wonder how the Sonic is going to compare (when is that due to arrive anyway?). Has to be better than an Aveo. Of course, a decent Trabant might be better than an Aveo."

"decent Trabant" = oxymoron

A good friend of mine is from Pakistan and he actually says that an 'ox-cart' is better than the Aveo!!! It's faster, more reliable and may even smell better!?

As for the 2012 Chevrolet Sonic, by most accounts (C&D, MT, Automobile, AutoWeek, among others) it is shows a lot of promise! It will come in 4-door sedan and 5-door hatchback bodystyles and the 5-door looks really sharp! The only competitor that looks almost as good is the 2012 Accent 5-door, but the Sonic should be more fun to drive.

The Sonic will borrow both engines from the Cruze- a 1.8L non-turbo I-4 and a 1.4L turbo I-4 both making 138hp. The 1.8L has a 5-speed MT standard, the 1.4L has a 6-speed manual and a 6-speed automatic is optional with either. The Sonic weighs more than 400lbs LESS than the Cruze, so it could be THE performer of the subcompact class with sub-8.0sec 0-60 times and 40mpg or better highway mileage.

Chevy was wise to lose the Aveo name, in a relatively short lifespan (2004-2011) it has become synonymous with CRAP! At least they got over the habit of reviving 'nostalgic' old names, otherwise it might have been the new Vega instead of Sonic!

ateixeira

I imagine a Sonic SS with a tuned 1.4T engine and 6MT would have tons of fun potential.

halsworthy

I don't understand your problem. If you don't like them/don't see the point of them, then simply don't buy one!

stever

And we're not even talking subcompacts.

"There is no justification for keeping a car with that low a volume," said Dan Johnston, spokesman for Volvo Cars of North America. "Americans haven't learned to love small cars."

Discontinued: Volvo S40 and V50 (Straightline)

Meanwhile IL gets some seat time in a Chevy Sonic.

nippononly

I've got news for Volvo - the S40 and V50 are not small cars. They are just subpar for what people expect from Volvo, which is why they haven't sold well.

It would be a big mistake for Volvo not to replace the S40 with a car smaller than the S60.

More on topic, it would be a hoot to see what an S20 might look like, with Mini Cooper pricing. Give it a Volvo interior, and I would be interested.

fintail

Denial from Volvo. S40/V50 are simply outclassed, outdated, expensive, not sought after. Notice the smaller and more interesting C30 wasn't axed. Ah, from a "spokesman".



Nothing wrong with us, Americans just don't want small cars :shades:

ateixeira

Nothing to see here, LOL.

I took a road trip from DC to NYC in a V50 turbo wagon, and it was loud and uncomfortable. I was in the back seat and arrived pretty fatigued.

I feel like that Volvo should have been a Focus, which is what it was underneath. At Focus prices, no complaints.

plekto

That said, the S60 is a fine automobile.

It's a lot like how people complain about GM's not having small cars. My response is... why bother? LET the other car companies waste the resources on cars that make them $300 at most per vehicle.

Nobody has brand loyalty any more. Every car purchase is like a computer purchase. You shop for the best deal. And most Americans simply don't like small, cheap cars.

alltorque

I took a road trip from DC to NYC in a V50 turbo wagon, and it was loud and uncomfortable. I was in the back seat and arrived pretty fatigued.

I think you're about right there. Having travelled in a V50 even the front seats aren't what I would class as "Volvo". That was a large part of the reason I bought an '06 S60 rather than a same-year, or later, V50, (V70 was bigger than I really needed). The new S60 has continued the proper "Volvo" approach to seating. I can't see USA without the S40 and V50 as being a great loss to you. Would be a different story here in Europe, though, as they do enjoy a certain healthy niche even though the Focus is arguably a better car..............but doesn't have the badge. Of course, if the Focus wore BMW badges then demand would outstrip supply by quite a margin. Lots of entry-level BMW 1-series about, (de-badging is generally a giveaway), and badge snobbery is alive and well in dear Olde England. Sad but true.

O.K., rambling off topic. Sorry.

stever

Snobbery is plenty evident here too I think, but brand loyalty is perhaps going by the wayside. Even Asian brands that some people have been wedded to for decades. For example:

hbannis, "How Much Is Brand Legacy Worth To You?" #67, 1 Jan 2011 12:07 pm

Okay, more on the subcompact topic, the Sonic starts at $14,495. (link)

fintail

I think brand loyalty might be harder to come by in the subcompact market, where products really aren't very differentiated and images are very similar. For highline vehicles, I think it will remain intact - the vehicles appear more different and price alone earns fans for some.

stever

True, price and mpg would be bigger factors in the small car market.

fintail

Price, mpg, and affordable gadgetry (like Sync) will all woo future buyers more than anything, exactly. The cars are all very similar otherwise.

puffin1

Well, maybe Americans would buy small,if we didn't have to wait 3 years for them to be driven all over the UK and Europe. We are Second hand Rose when it come to getting good inports.
Also, a small car that doesn't have a torsion beam suspension.Look how long it took Ford and GM to bring theirs across the pond models here.
I suggest you go on to some UK and European sites ie; Auto Express I'd pay extra for a TCDI engine , sunroof muli heated leather seats, and a car with a multilink suspension(except for the Mini as it's a lemon telling a
71 year old senior citizen that their tranny is blown at 5 k because they don't know how to shift.Why, not a luxury small car with an arm rest, alloys,lumbar support and Bluetooth and stuts front@ back. I wish Edmunds would on their reviews of vehicles would tell the people what they are really getting. I just answered a lady who wanted to know why her new Fiesta ,when it hits a bump is so jarring compared to her Toyata pick up. Also, how come there is so much road noise? I think Edmunds ought to help people more when doing car evaluations.27k for a Focus? I think not you can get an Audi A3 for 3k more.

tifighter

Wait a minute. You just said you'd pay extra for the diesel engine, sunroof, heated seats etc. But then you say that $27K is too much for a Focus?

Those features cost money. In the $27k-ish range for a Focus, you can build a Titanium hatchback with DCT, moonroof, leather, SYNC, heated seats/mirrors, rain-sensing wipers, Handling Pkg, the self-parallel park thing, etc. That A3 is just a Golf in drag, and is not as well equipped. Europeans are already used to paying premium money for a premium hatch; the US will still take some time to come around.

hpmctorque

The '12 Hyundai Accent appears to be a winner, according to an early test of this car by AutoWeek.

motorcity6

AutoWeek really doesn't win my vote...not the car, just the magazine...

No Korean car will be on my payroll..Volvo has much more class, however, wouldn't spend any money on one..

Volvo is not into tiny cheap wheels...

stever

Here's Edmunds' take:

"The 2012 Hyundai Accent has become a real car. It's not a cheerless subcompact for the worker bee who can't afford anything better. Rather, this five-door hatchback, along with its sedan companion, is the kind of car that inspires said bee to get out and see the country when he's not working."

2012 Hyundai Accent First Drive

hpmctorque

Edmunds' conclusion confirms/supports AutoWeek's, and vice-versa. It'll be interesting to see a comparison of this class (B?) of car that includes the Fiesta and Sonic.

fintail

5 door looks better IMO (tail lights are weird though)

I suspect the Kia counterpart will be less overstyled.