What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

fintail

I'd think iQ vs ForTwo would be more comparable, once the former is available.

kyfdx

Plus, the iQ has seating for four... a "normal" front engine configuration, etc...

After seeing one at the car show, no way you could get me in a Smart, instead...

fintail

I saw one at the local dealer, it did look like a much better design than the original (which is now also ancient and needs an overhaul anyway)

ateixeira

iQ is less bad, but I doubt it'll do much volume.

Veloster is doing well:

http://www.bizjournals.com/prnewswire/press_releases/2012/03/01/LA63064

And did not cannibalize the Accent, which is the real news. Those are pure incremental sales for them.

fintail

No surprise to me, the dorky cheapskate who buys an Accent would be scared by something as odd as a Veloster.

ateixeira

Some times the marketing folks get it right, and they get incremental sales like that.

Another example is the Honda Element. I know it's been cancelled, but for the first few years it sold well, and more importantly it did not take away from CR-V sales (the platform it was based on).

Ironically, the CR-V actually became the best selling SUV only after the Element was offered for sale right next to it.

So these oddballs manage to appeal to different buyers than the pedestrian cars they're based on.

fintail

Niche marketing. Even though people who like something unique are the minority, there are enough of them to buy unusual cars. What really competes with the Veloster, as it is weird looking and unconventional? Nothing comes to mind. Probably didn't cost a lot to develop either, so margins will be healthy.

ateixeira

I've seen a lot of comparisons to the Honda CR-Z, itself an odd ball.

Even though the Veloster isn't a hybrid the highway MPG is in the same ball park.

I guess the turbo has the quirky oddball sports niche all to itself.

fintail

Yeah the hybrid part is different for me, and I have heard the CR-Z isn't very sporty either - not a CRX replacement.

Hyunkia is determined to be everything for everyone - surprised they haven't gone for pickups yet.

ateixeira

Haven't been following close enough to know but they just might have one overseas. At least a van-based one.

I always thought Honda should do a non-hybrid CR-Z, even the Civic engine would be peppy enough. Or build a Fit Si.

There would be demand for a small/sporty car, I think.

fintail

Fit Si and CRZ-Si would be pretty cool, and would cost very little to add to the lineup. Honda needs some dynamic product dearly.

ateixeira

Civic has grown too much, those 2 are better suited now.

How else are you gonna get 54.5mpg and still have fun? :shades:

stickguy

stopped at a Honda dealer late Saturday afternoon this weekend. Snooze fest (though the wife did think the CRV could work for her, and felt comfortable with the "honda-ness" aspect of it), and the place was crowded. Seemed to be someone at every salesmans desk.

the Hyundai dealer was even busier. Was still packed at 6:30 (1/2 hour past closing), so they must have been working on legit deals!

ateixeira

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20120305/OEM04/120309933/1164-

Cute, but I worry about visibility given there's no windows behind the rear door.

Still, looks 1000 times better than the BMW 1 series 5 door.

fintail

I don't like the fussy over-creased side detailing.

It's coming here, and I bet it will sell fine - people will buy the badge.

ateixeira

M-B just has to be careful not to water down their name. Doesn't seem like they will, given the options it'll have.

I predict it'll do well.

fintail

As long as it isn't troublesome, I don't see any problems. The brand survived the recent dark ages, the star has more brand equity than anyone can imagine - even if it lost a bit lately. The A will still be in the 20s too, so not too cheap.

ateixeira

The best purpose it can serve it to take the entry level stigma away from the C class, let that model slide up the price scale. Ditch the $299 lease specials for the C, sell the A to the cheapskates.

kyfdx

to the cheapskates.

We prefer "thrifty" ....

fintail

That makes some sense - seems to be what has happened to the 3er, at least in loaded form, too - can be pretty expensive, which makes room for something under it.

ateixeira

Don't worry, I count myself among them.

kyfdx

Yeah... I never felt better about a car, just because I paid a lot...

Could have leased an E350 diesel for under $500/mo.. for just 24 months... I'm pretty sure my nose would still have been pointed up... lol..

Didn't feel any less cool driving the Z4, just because the payment was $335/mo... etc, etc...

ateixeira

Buddy of mine just picked up a CPO Z4.

fintail

I'd probably go for that E deal if I could custom build my car and negotiate off some options. How much was the initial payment?

kyfdx

1st payment + 10 multiple security deposits due at signing (refundable).. That was a 24 month, 10K/yr lease.. and, included sales tax...

Unfortunately (or fortunately), my wife had test driven an E-Class by the time they came back with that deal... and, she had decided it was too large for her.. Otherwise, I would have jumped on it...

This was just one month after I leased the service loaner Z4.... which she also said she didn't want (after we got it)... So, I sort of learned my lesson... Her friend is now driving the Z4, and my teenager is bummed that his mother is an old lady... lol

fintail

Sounds like a heck of a deal. I don't know much about leasing, but I look at it as a payment of 1% or less of final price being an acceptable deal - so say a 55K car for 500/month isn't bad. Lease is kind of short, but I am sure that can be worked out. Did the car have to be taken from the lot?

I have thought my next car purchase might be a lease to see if I really want the car for the long haul, then buy it when the lease is up, or drop the keys and move to something else without risk.

kyfdx

Yeah... that was back in September/October.. There were only 3 or 4 available within 300 miles of me... and, the killer deal was on the diesel, only...

Usually 24 month leases are a lot higher than 36 months... I like the short ones, though... .never have to worry about replacing tires, etc...

1% of MSRP is a really good lease payment... but, getting harder and harder to find.. not a ton of good leases, right now...

explorerx4

Candy Red Fiesta today (she is 82). Bringing it for it's first service tomorrow.
Since mid August last year it has almost 2300 miles on it.
Had 2 other drivers cut me off in a 5 mile round trip.
Still the worst thing about small cars.

fintail

Do leases usually have to be taken from available stock? That might be the tough thing for me, as I like weirdo cars.

kyfdx

No.. you can order...

Some banks allow you to lock the lease program for orders... others don't...

randybey

I am one lucky dad. My daughter had an accident in her Mini Cooper. She had rear ended the car in front of her because two cars in front of her slammed on their brakes as did the car in front of her. Greatfull that it was a low speed impact and the car in front of her was not damaged. The bonnet (hood) of the Mini Cooper was bent and imediately the car burst into flames. The flames and smoke from the engine compartment filled the inside and luckly my daughter could get out of the car. Within minutes the car was totally in flames and the whole car a total lost. This site says that the safety of this car is good. Look at the safety tests on impact and there is none. No lawyer will touch this because there were no deaths or major injuries. How many people must die before Mini and BMW pull these death traps off the street. The transmissions, water pumps and electrical systems also cause fires to this car. Check to see how many recalls to the late model Mini Coopers there are. I just thank God that my daughter or no one else was injured or killed. If she had be stuck in the car for one minute more she would have died from the fames or smoke.

ateixeira

Spontaneous combustion. They all do it.

stickguy

at some point a Mini must have been barrier tested, and certainly didn't burst into flames. That is exceptionally rare for any car, especially in a low enough speed collision to not even damage the car in front (so what, 5 MPH? did the air bages even go off?)

Curious though, did they determine what actually caught fire and what caused it?

qbrozen

Good luck getting a reply. The guy signed up and posted the same thing in 5 threads in one day. I don't think he'll be back.

alltorque

So, according to the OP transmissions and water pumps cause fires in the MINI. First time for everything I suppose. The whole "incident" is just odd and doesn't feel real. Did this actually happen or do we have a Troll in the building ?

All European cars are tested by Euro Ncap and the MINI fared pretty well. If you search for euroncap you can see the test results for all the euro stuff together with the associated comments. Nowhere is the possibility of fire mentioned. I suspect I know why.

plekto

Cars are not crash-tested in running form/with all of the fluids and fuel in it (ie - not running at the time). They are looking at structural damage only and so occasionally electrical and/or fuel issues after a crash are missed.

But there are a lot of factors as well. If you hit one of those bars on the back of a semi trailer, for example, you would likely find your roof and windshield taking most of the force (and your head if you didn't duck in time). If the vehicle in question was lifted had a trailer hitch or steel bumper and it punched a hole in the hood (car dove under it, essentially missing the Mini's bumper entirely) and took out the fuel rails, and/or hoses, I could see a fire starting. Crashes are always part luck.

qbrozen

over 80k minis with the turbo engine were recalled for fires caused by the water pump (as odd as that sounds). Troll doesn't say if her's was a turbo, but I would think he would have said so (MINI S and not just MINI Cooper). And since MINI admitted there is a potential problem and issued the recall, I'm not sure how its a big secret or a conspiracy or whatever he's trying to claim.

busiris

over 80k minis with the turbo engine were recalled for fires caused by the water pump (as odd as that sounds). Troll doesn't say if her's was a turbo, but I would think he would have said so (MINI S and not just MINI Cooper). And since MINI admitted there is a potential problem and issued the recall, I'm not sure how its a big secret or a conspiracy or whatever he's trying to claim.

Well, maybe that would be relative if the turbo engine had caught fire, thereby causing the front of the car to explode in flames and then the subsequent crash.... However, it appears the fire erupted AFTER the crash.

And, lets remember that a recall doesn't apply to problems, but "potential" problems, which in most cases, no one actually ever experiences.

Sounds like someone "venting" to me...

qbrozen

This was experienced by at least 4 owners, however. Whether it could happen after a crash is anyone's guess. I would imagine, since the cause is a cracked circuit board, that a crash could induce one on the edge to fully crack and start such a fire.

And, yes, it is obviously someone venting, if the story is true, that is, and probably reposted the same thing in 100 different places and we'll never hear from that person again.

ateixeira

Venting or trolling?

If that's all they say and then disappear, it's trolling.

qbrozen

well, I called him a troll 2 posts up, so I switched it up this time.

busiris

Read the article. Yes, you are correct in that it did happen to 4 cars, but no accidents were tied to the issue.

The point I was poorly attempting to make was that, in most recalls, the odds of the recalled "event cause" happening to any particular car are extremely low. And, this particular issue bears that out. 4 incidents out of a potential 89k, if I remember the number correctly.

I guess I just find it odd how some folks, in this case, the "venting individual" (wanna be politically correct, you know...) often see clear lines between 2 events (in this case, vehicle fire), when there aren't any clear lines at all.

stever

If that's all they say and then disappear, it's trolling.

I have to disagree. I will post a one off post on other sites about bad service or a bad product. Vent posts aren't necessarily inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic nor intended to disrupt the conversation (paraphrasing Wiki).

btw, if you ever get to Callahan Florida, be sure to eat at the Pig Bar B Que. The BBQ sauce was so good I had to buy a bottle, and the fried oysters were the best we've had yet this trip. Even saw a subcompact Fiat 500 as I was pulling out of the parking lot. :shades:

ateixeira

Vent posts aren't necessarily inflammatory

His was.

Well, maybe his was incendiary.

stever

A reporter is interested in talking to any car shoppers who are thinking about buying any one of the following small cars: Chevy Cruze, Ford Focus, Hyundai Elantra, Honda Civic or Dodge Dart. Please send a brief description of your shopping experience and your preferred contact information to PR@edmunds.com by Monday, June 18th.

andre1969

Cars are not crash-tested in running form/with all of the fluids and fuel in it (ie - not running at the time). They are looking at structural damage only and so occasionally electrical and/or fuel issues after a crash are missed.

Wasn't there some Isuzu that was crash-tested and failed because of a fuel leak? They probably didn't use gasoline in it, but maybe some other liquid, so that they could see if there was a rupture? For some reason I'm thinking it was a Trooper?

Oh, as for the Mini that burst into flames, they forgot to mention that the car that was rear-ended was a 1965 Ford Mustang with a lift kit in the rear, and a rusty gas tank! :P

stever

Good memory - 2000 Trooper and some substitute fluid for the fuel. IIHS (pdf file).

Similar problem happened with 2001 Dodge Grand Caravans too.

And the 2004 Toyota Sienna got retested because of a fuel leak in the first test. (IIHS). That one led to a recall.

Oh, another one for the 2004 Elantra. I need to quit searching - must be a dozen of these out there.

nippononly

Not ONE of those is a subcompact, in fact the Chevy and the Dodge are bordering on midsize!

ateixeira

It is Dodge's smallest car, if you don't count Fiat.

andre1969

Even the Chevy Sonic isn't *that* small. There's a lady at work who recently traded in her old Chevy Tracker for a new Sonic hatchback. Not surprisingly, it's too small for my tastes, but it doesn't look deathtrap-small, like how little cars used to back in the day.

A couple weeks ago, I saw a Sonic sedan pull up next to an '04-07 style Malibu. I swear the two looked to be roughly the same size, and the Sonic, thanks to its higher beltline and rump, and thicker roof pillars, actually looked beefier!

Going by specs, the '04 Malibu is on a 106.3" wb and around 188" long, compared to a 99.4" wb and 173" long. That sounds like a pretty big difference on paper, but somehow, the Malibu does a good job at hiding those extra 15 inches, and ends up looking diminutive, IMO.