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What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?



  • boaz47boaz47 Posts: 2,751
    "Why bring up the Amish as they don't OWN vehicles?"

    Simple hyperbole. It was to point out that Americans do not tend to think about things based on need. It is the thought process or structure I was referring to. That question was asked Rhetorically by Nippon about how to get people interested in driving only what they need and I don't believe that will ever happen. We as a society tend to be dreamers. Many of us buy big SUVs because we feel we might want to be rugged and go off road or pull our boat out of the water with ease. The problem is most SUV owners never realize that dream and so they buy what they don't need but rather what they want. That is why advertising works so well. It gets us thinking about having the best of something not about if we need it or not. Sub Compacts can be useful to many I am sure. For 80 percent of the time they might be all I or anyone still working needed. But they don't represent having the best of anything,"in our culture". Our country was founded on the very idea that everyone could be whatever they wanted and work towards having whatever they can afford. That idea isn't likely to change in my life time.
    All I am saying is that basic transportation isn't likely to become the goal of anyone trying to succeed in this country. Sub Compacts may have a bright star now and then in cars like the Cooper. But they will not be the mainstreams first choice so they aren't likely to pay more for them as so will almost always remain basic transportation.

    At least they are more likely to provide Nippon with his manual transmission longer than the mainstream cars will.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Manson, WAPosts: 7,236
    but this is what epinions are for, eh? And I did mean epinions, not opinions. That's because we're all online. Tee-hee.

    Americans obviously must think that they deserve what they want and not what they need. What I "needed" turned out to be what I wanted the most, anyway. I was thrilled by the performance of the 1999 Kia Sephia that first turned me on to Kia Motors of South Korea. I tend to look for value and I tend to look for body styling (the Sephia bodystyling blows away Civic and Corolla bodystyling) and good powertrains. The Kia motor vehicles deliver in all of those areas.

    I would never be happy with a behemoth pick-em-up truck or a behemoth SUV. They're huge, they're ugly, they're an annoyance to everyone on the road because of how much space they take up and they get crappy gas mileage. I am of the epinion that ghastly is not going to go down in price, only stay the same or go up. I gave my opinion here on Edmunds about 3 months ago that ghastly would level off around $2.00/gal for 87 no-lead and only go up from there. What do you all see happening?

    I love the Kia interiors and I am fixing to trade in my 2001 Kia Sportage 4x4 for a 2006 Kia Rio LX in a few weeks. With the recent college grad rebate of $400 and the owner loyalty rebate Kia just told America about of $500 my 2006 Kia Rio LX in Sapphire Blue, 5-speeds and otherwise equipped just how I need (and want!), I will pay a whopping $12,155. Whoo-pee. Writers are raving about it's quiet interior for such a small car and it's great acceleration up to freeway speeds. It doesn't even make sense for me to look at used rigs. The new Rio's are European-inspired in design and Kia has really done a great job in styling on this new Rio and Rio5. I may go for a Rio5 still. Won't know until early February when I go in with my proof of Sportage title, college degree and huge smile on my face 'cause I'm gettin' a new Kia. :D

    These guys just keep getting better and better. Closing quip for y'all: anyone know who produces the brightest students year after year?

    Did you guess South Korea? If you did then you're correct. Now, you know at least a fraction of those smarties are coming to work for Kia Motors (South Korea's oldest car maker)and Hyundai Motors.

    Early reports are very favorable concerning the new Kia Rio twins. Motor Trend's January issue includes the 2006 Kia Rio5 as one of it's 28 contenders for 2006 Car of The Year.

    I noticed the fine quality and value of Kia motorcars way back in 1999 while America slept and revered their oversized pick-em-up trucks and SUV's. Kia quality has only improved since then and their prices are so low that I couldn't pass up a new Kia if I wanted to.

    Did anyone mention Warranties? :)

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 58,488
    Maybe in the old days a subcompact felt like a bargain basement vehicle, but not any more. After test driving I see no difference in a $14K car and a $20K car, because really a lot of the price difference is in gadgetry, not the basic car.

    As for the Mini, I shopped one as a "step up" kind of car, but when I saw the reliability records I couldn't believe how troublesome they were. No thanks. And really, you want the "S" model (the base car is rather slow), and with options that busts through $20K and goes up from there.

    So basically the diff between a Mini S and a well-equipped subcompact was $10,000!! Is it "built" any better? I didn't see it. Is it faster, more fun, etc...? Oh, yeah!

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  • Rio is better than the new Accent. Why?
    Had seats back in th e Rio, and room to sit(I got behind the driver's seat, after I adjusted it for comfort).
    The Accent... I do not know what the numbers say, but I could NOT get behind the driver's seat, after adjusting for my comfort, w/o sitting sideways :surprise:
    I am not a tall guy, either.

    The Accent bored me with it's external look, also.

    I asked the Kia dealership, and they can put sunroof on(if ordered) but the cruise control, would have to be a 2 hour job, they said. They use an aftermarket place, and has 3/36K warranty.

    I could get one loaded like I want(where's the leather? Aveo 07 model has it as an option! and rumored loaded for 15K, with sunroof and cruise, etc).
    Even Reno has leather(of sorts) for 15K, and sunroof, et al.
    7/100K warranty on major parts is good.
    I am looking towards the rumored(on "future vehicles" Sporty Reno for 07.
    If it fits the bill, may buy one.

    At this stage of my life(middle-aged) I am wanting Maybe an Eclipse!
    All I need is room for the dog(back seat) and spouse(passenger seat).
    10/100K warranty, too.

    Anyhow, If I had to go for small, I'd wait for Summer, look at the Aveo(from what I have read and have seen, it looks decent, and should be a solid car. 5 star crash test for current model), and Kia Rio. Rio5 is sharper looking, but smaller.
    Maybe too small for the land of giant vehicles?
  • boaz47boaz47 Posts: 2,751
    Might I ask why you stick your chin out like that? We start talking about sub compacts and their image and maybe even reliability and you come in with Kia who is once again on the bottom of JD Powers dependability list? Have they ever been off the bottom? Even the discontinued Daewoo is rated as more dependable. If I were in the market for a sub compact why in the world would I consider a car rated lower than the Mini Shifty mentioned? Remember the JD Powers study is done by interviewing owners of the vehicles listed. It sure doesn't look like they got your survey back. I am glad you have a good Kia and I hope it continues to give you great service. But they still don't seem like a good choice if they are still rated so low.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    Exactly! The Echo I just got is basically the current-gen Yaris in the rest of the world, which is to be replaced by the next-gen car that debuted at the LA Auto Show.

    I was checking out the AW AutoFile on it:

    0-60 in 8.46 seconds, beats Camry 4-cyl and is about the same as Corolla.

    Noise: 40 db at idle, 68 db at 60 mph, about the same as those other cars, and notably better than many sporty cars out there.

    60-0: 132 feet, about the same among these three models(and better than the much more expensive Matrix I had for a while a couple of years back, as are all these numbers).

    Skidpad is mediocre at 0.75g, but it's not like the Camry beats it by any significant amount (0.77, I think?). Corolla is a similar story in base form.

    At the $14K price point, it has A/C, 6-speaker CD, cruise, tons of in-cabin storage, and a tilt wheel. It's a comfortable, reliable, peppy round-town ride, and it's just one example.

    With its looks, of course, it is also the original mutant klown car, but there are other subcompacts out there with the looks nailed. As will the Fit, next-gen Yaris, Rio5, and Aveo, IMO. Subcompacts do NOT have to feel like bargain basement cars any more. They do not have to look like them either. And they can out-sport larger more expensive cars with, in some cases, significant dollar savings.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • boaz47boaz47 Posts: 2,751
    why do you feel that mid sized cars are preferred to sub compacts by such a great percent? Or better yet does anyone think the sub compact market is likely to gain on the larger vehicles? will the American consumer ever be ready to stop buying bigger vehicles and embrace the sub compact? I doubt it personally. Sure they may make some kind of comeback but I doubt it. The Accord started small and got bigger. The Civic was smaller than it is today. even little trucks, the compact truck market is getting bigger. Just to ask a question, what do you think will happen to the compact truck?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 58,488
    If the price point is good, they will switch, especially in urban area and especially on both coasts I think.

    Right now, subcompacts are offering a LOT...a LOT...of value for the buck and this is irresistable to the very young, to retirees and to third car families.

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  • socala4socala4 Posts: 2,427
    We start talking about sub compacts and their image and maybe even reliability and you come in with Kia who is once again on the bottom of JD Powers dependability list?

    I know someone who used to manage "lemon law" buybacks and processing for Kia. That job kept her very busy...
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    why do people prefer midsizers, you ask? Why, the answer is simple, rampant out-of-control commercialism! We tote so much unnecessary junk around in our lives, we think we need extra space in our cars just to store it!

    More seriously, I don't expect subcompacts to overtake midsizers any time soon, no. But we have the first serious wave of subcompact contenders just hitting American shores in the next few months that we have had in a long time. Sure, we have had the niche Scions, only recently selling in large numbers, and the Rio/Accent/Aveo marginalized by their Korean reputations and funky looks.

    The next Aveo and Rio, including the Rio5, actually look modern and are fully outfitted at low prices. The Fit and Yaris will carry HonToy's reputation, while being a decent value in their own right.

    I agree with you boaz, that people are very susceptible to advertising that encourages to buy what they want rather than what they need. The gas price spike this past summer was the first time they were forced to pause and think, "what do I actually NEED?". Large SUV sales dropped by 20-40% as a result.

    Sprawl in our larger cities is slowing down, as people become aware of its negative effects. As the infill that results from this realization increases, more and more people will realize the benefits of owning smaller cars, not because it's cheaper but because SMALLER is what's actually needed, and in fact has advantages for maneuvering, parking, etc.

    But that will be a slow process, so in general I agree that midsizers will not be knocked off their sales throne any time soon. The only thing that might cause a RAPID ramp-up in small car sales is a larger gas price spike than we saw six months ago.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • carguy58carguy58 Posts: 2,303
    "You can bet when the 2 inches longer Elantra comes out, it will jump a few grand."

    Of course its going to jump up in price. All cars jump in price every year. I don't think the Elantra will jump a few grand but maybe 1 grand. I can't see a compact car jumping 3 grand in price in 1 year.

    "Guess they are all trying to "grab the cash" before China, Inc hits USA?"

    People on these boards act like the chinese are already selling cars in the US and taking market share. They(the chinese manufacturer's) aren't even here yet and haven't even proven themselves yet. The chinese manufacturers when they get to the US don;t have even have the respect of Kia in the states. The chinese manufacturers are going to have to compete head to head with Kia. They can't come right out of the gate in the US with a Camry competitor.

    About supcompact cars of course they are going to be tight inside. I wouldn't be expecting headroom like the curent Altima has.
  • boaz47boaz47 Posts: 2,751
    Lets try this approach. If you had your choice between a sub compact and a mid sized car and they both cost the same what would you buy? Think about it and put yourself in the mainstream consumers shoes.

    Now not knowing what you answered lets say you said the Mid sized of course because you get more car for the money. Then that whole discussion breaks down to a cost issue. To sell a sub compact you "have" to offer it at a lower cost than you would a Mid Sized car. So how do you get away from the entry level stigma? Secondly how to you convince someone that works 45 hours a week that they don't "deserve" a little more room and a bit more comfort if they can afford it? Higher gas prices won't do it because people simply factor in the price of gas. SO if my neighbor has a Micro mini Hondaca hatchback with a 1500cc engine and can seat 4 and I make 20K more a year than my neighbor what will convince me not to look at the Benzolac V-6 that only burns 8 more MPG than my neighbors Hondaca? Considering that I am only looking at an extra 15 gallons a week? After all that is only 45 bucks and I make close to 100 bucks more than he does any way and still I will have a nicer car?

    Isn't that the way marketing and advertising works? Isn't that how our society thinks? Because haven't we learned this from our own history over the last 230 years? I can't see those preferences changing can you? And to tell the truth do you ever think Urban flight will ever turn into a return to the city? Not as long as I am taking a breath I am sure. Those living in the Burbs see the city as pure crime waiting to happen. Maybe a newer generation may see things differently but if you look at real estate I don't see people that are established moving into smaller houses just because all they need is a one bedroom do you?
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,046
    that's been a killer for many smaller cars is that you can often get a much larger car that has better power, is roomier, AND gets better economy, simply because its larger engine doesn't have to rev or strain so much.

    For instance, back when I bought my '00 Intrepid, it was EPA rated at 20/29 for the 2.7 (I think in the final couple years it moved slightly to 21/29). Anyway, a 4-cyl Stratus was actually a bit worse, at 20/28 for the 2.4! With the Mitsu 2.5 they used back then it was 19/27 (18/26 for California models). The 2000 Neon came in at 25/31 with the automatic, 28/35 with the stick.

    Likewise at GM, getting a Malibu or Cavalier instead of an Impala, or even a LeSabre, really didn't save you a whole lot of fuel.

    It was one thing, back in the 70's when most of those big mastodons were lucky if they broke 15 mpg on the highway, and your CVCC might've topped 30 mpg. But nowadays many large-ish V-6 sedans can push the 30 mpg mark, while precious few economy cars can break 40. Basically, they've just made greater strides with larger cars than they have with smaller ones, so the fuel savings is pretty much a moot least until prices shoot up to ridiculous levels and/or it goes into short supply, Mad Max/Road Warrior style...
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    I could answer you, but would you believe it? Given the choice between an '07 Camry and '07 Yaris (both are redesigned this year, due out in 2 or 3 months), I would definitely take the Yaris.

    Now if there were such a thing as a $20K Yaris, I would take it over the $20K Camry. Agility, fuel economy, these are things that are high on my list. But I must admit that I have a second car, my truck, which is bigger, and if I didn't have that it would be more of a toss-up. But make no mistake: I would be sacrificing many of my vehicle priorities if I were to buy the larger car, and would do so only because it would be more versatile as far as passenger-carrying capacity. Truth is that in this scenario I would ACTUALLY go in-between and get a Corolla.

    And I would expect the Yaris at that price to be well-equipped, as much as the Camry in fact. And to have far better fuel economy. FE keeps inching up at a rate that is wholly unacceptable to me! 24/34 in a 4-cyl Camry just aint that great to my mind, in fact the upcoming Fit's (subcompact) estimate at 33/38 is no cause for celebration either. Likewise, the Yaris's 34/40 is acceptable but not great.

    And infill? It is already happening in a few long-established cities like New York, San Francisco, and others in New England, for instance. It will be 50 years before it begins to happen in the more recently expanded cities like Phoenix, Vegas, etc, and a while also before it comes to some of the other large cities. But it will eventually happen. It is inevitable, simply because the supply of land is not infinite. Especially buildable land clsoe enough to cities to make it worth it to build.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • bumpybumpy Posts: 4,435
    Lets try this approach. If you had your choice between a sub compact and a mid sized car and they both cost the same what would you buy? Think about it and put yourself in the mainstream consumers shoes.

    I'm not Nippononly but I'd take the smaller one, other things being equal (cost, suspension, engine, etc.) since the smaller car would axiomatically have superior handling and performance. My '92 Nissan Sentra SE-R stickered for just over $12,000; I would imagine that $12,000 could have put you in a low-option '92 Stanza, but the Stanza is no SE-R (and the U12 Bluebird SSS would have run a lot more than $12k if it had been sold here). A base Aveo versus a base Cobalt is a squash match except in price, but an Aveo 2.2 versus a base Cobalt (both at $15k) is a whole other matter.
  • carlisimocarlisimo Posts: 1,280
    The smaller car simply has to have something that the bigger car doesn't.

    If they're priced the same but different sizes, the smaller car might be able to have better materials. It might be a funner drive. It might have better styling or a bit of prestige.

    There are people out there buying $27k Audi A3's instead of $27k large Buicks. The 3 series used to be tiny but that didn't stop it. Some buyers are choosing Civic Si's or optioned-out Civic EXs over base Accords. Discounted GM midsized sedans haven't killed sales of Minis and Mazda3s. A few of us here would buy a Lotus Elise instead of an SRT-8.

    Or, just like sportiness or prestige, price can make a deal too. For some people, a new Accent is better than any midsized car you can get for the same price, because that midsizer will have to be a used car.
    Along the same lines as price, gas mileage can make a real difference to someone who drives a lot more than you do.

    If you don't want one, that's fine. You're in the majority, as you know. Doesn't mean it's the only way to live.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Manson, WAPosts: 7,236
    what do you mean, why do I go and stick my neck out like that?

    Well, I am one who discovered with his '99 Kia Sephia that Kia's are made well, drive nicely and look bodywise better than all other carmakers out there, including Mercedes-Benz, BMW, etc. Name a huge carmaker and I'll tell you the Kia make and bodystyle that I prefer.

    I will get with my '06 Kia Rio LX a great little car that is well-built, carries a 10-year, 100,000 mile Long-Haul Warranty, looks great and performs well.

    My maintenance costs on the two Kia's I've owned since 1999 have been hideously low. I can not find another car on the planet I would buy that I would prefer over my 2001 Kia Sportage 4x4, except the 2006 Kia Rio LX or 2006 Kia Rio5 SX. I will buy one of those two in a few weeks, unless I decide on a 2006 Kia Spectra or 2006 Kia Sportage. All or any would be great deals. I get a $500 Owner Loyalty rebate and a $400 college grad rebate whichever I choose. The one I want, in Sapphire Blue, the 2006 Kia Rio LX, will cost me a whopping $12,155 with the two discounts I'll be availing myself of.

    Most regulars on here have heard my spiel and know my stance, boaz47. You've been conspicuously gone for a few months and I guess you've forgotten my stance.

    To me, the past, present and future in my own automotive needs is Kia Motors of South Korea. And, even though Americans are extremely thick-headed about realizing it, Kia Motors cares deeply about their quality and greatly want you to be happy with your purchase.

    If you think about it, gentlemen, who would spend the time to build something so complex as an automobile and not want it to be perfect for the buyer? Huh? ;)

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • boaz47boaz47 Posts: 2,751
    I know your stand. I was simply stating that Kia and dependability don't seem to go hand in hand and if Kia was to represent sub compacts as a whole the dependability stats in JD Powers would put them pretty low on the list of vehicles worth buying. You having two that have served you well in no way negates the many that have placed them at the bottom of the JD Powers survey. why, might I ask "you" do you feel they have such a bad dependability rating from their own owners? I am not saying you can't love your vehicle choice. That is never a question after someone buys a vehicle for what ever reason they buy it. But as you may have detected you contention that they are high on the dependability scale leaves a lot of room for debate. Or don't you look at the owner surveys in JD Powers?
    The numbers you are quoting give legs to my contention that sub compacts do best when priced as entry level vehicles. It is like buying a power tool from Harbor freight. You have a functioning tool. But it may let you down much sooner than a name brand. Are their tools worth it? Sure they are but they aren't of the same quality as the professional grade tools.

    Yes I have been visiting other sites over the last few months. Nothing much has changed while I have been gone however.
  • carlisimocarlisimo Posts: 1,280
    " contention that sub compacts do best when priced as entry level vehicles."

    Hm... the pricier subcompacts seem to do well. They're all specialty cars: roadsters plus the Mini and Insight. That's all I can think of, as far as subcompacts starting above $15k.

    And entry level subcompacts are going to be well, only as good as an entry level car can be. I'd call them specialty cars too, as they sell mostly on price.
  • boaz47boaz47 Posts: 2,751
    Once again I agree. But then you have niche vehicles. And it is hard to start a trend with the buying public with a niche vehicle.

    The question I still come back to is for Nippon. What is happening to the compact truck? Are they not an example of what people are looking for? I can tell you that my old 80 Courier was a whole lot smaller than my 98 Mazda series. We had a old 77 F-250 with a 460 was a bunch smaller than our 98 F-250 diesel. So my friend Nippon, is there a future for compact trucks? If not, what is the big difference between between compact truck buyers and car buyers?
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Manson, WAPosts: 7,236
    is they are sharing platforms with Hyundai and, in many cases I have read, people are preferring the Kia model more than the Hyundai model it competes with.

    For just one simple example, on one of the Edmunds threads I was reading online today, one of the Edmunds' regulars, harrychezt, sat in a '06 Kia Rio and a '06 Hyundai Accent. He couldn't fit into the back of the Accent but he could fit into the back of the Rio, and he was comfortable.

    Early reviews on the '06 Kia Rio are very favorable. Test drivers are digging it's quiet cabin, for instance. Kia has put several sound deadening layers in between the wheels and the cabin and it is paying off in the form of a quiet cabin ride. I have also read of reviewers stating that the Rio engine seemed "peppier" than the Accent, even though many of them say the Kia emits more noise during acceleration up through the low gears. Once the car has hit a low cruising speed the engine settles into a quiet hum. Several have commented on the Rio's quiet ride. I know this is true, since I have read them myself, I am reading everything I can get my paws on about this new "Euro" designed subcompact from Kia.

    I am thinking I'll trade for one of them because I don't feel like paying extra for ghastly, for one thing. The '06 Rio in 5-speed form gets 32 city, 35 highway, certainly an agreeable set of numbers.

    Now, it is true dependability figures are not great for Kia. I like to get my Kia in for anything it needs, whether a TSB is out on the rig or not. I have been treated great from the two Kia dealers I've sought service from. If a person keeps up their maintenance schedule and works hard toward keeping their Kia in tip-top shape, you can get what you want from your Kia vehice.

    I am going a lot from my previous experience from Kia. I will also tolerate a repair here or there, even with a new vehicle, too, and I won't complain about it and include it on a new owner's driving survey. Skewing the data, you say? Well, no, it doesn't. It reflects customer satisfaction to handle the surverys that way, eight?

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    A future for compact trucks, boaz? Alas, I think not. The automakers have discovered they can make a stripped midsize pick-up for about $15K, and that there is no need to get much cheaper than that. All the people who wanted one as a cheap rugged runabout back in the day have since discovered they can get a brand new Korean car for about $10 grand, with as much longevity and durability as they really need, and much better gas mileage. And the fleets like pizza delivery will pay the $15K for the basic midsize pick-up, as that is less in 2006 dollars than these trucks cost back in 1986 dollars.

    And UNLIKE subcompact cars, I don't see a lot of advantages to a smaller version of what is strictly a utility vehicle (the truck), rather than one sometimes or often driven for pleasure (the car). The agility, ease of parking, the handling, the joy of a lightweight vehicle, all are absent in a compact pick-up. You do not LOSE anything moving up to the next size. Even the fuel economy of the compacts was never that great - indeed, the Tacoma (the only one I know off the top of my head) maintained its FE rating with the latest generation, despite moving up from compact to midsize, and increasing in power by 20% (and by 0.3L in displacement).

    I hope I have elucidated clearly what the differences are between cars and trucks in this regard. Subcompact cars have the biggest advantage of all - light weight is its own reward. Handling, agility, parking, maneuvering through city streets, the best fuel economy in the market, best of all the knowledge on the way to work each morning that it is just the right amount of car for the job it is used most often to execute. In that sense, it is the least wasteful way to own a car, if one has to own a car.

    Subcompacts are not for everyone, but a lot more people would be perfectly adequately served by them than you might think.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,046
    have a future, but only enough of a future for maybe 1-2 players. It's kind of like the ponycar market, where if you only have a 1-2 choices, there's enough demand that everybody's happy. But if every maker jumps into the market, it just gets too fragmented and nobody wins.
  • logic1logic1 Posts: 2,433
    And to tell the truth do you ever think Urban flight will ever turn into a return to the city? Not as long as I am taking a breath I am sure. Those living in the Burbs see the city as pure crime waiting to happen.

    Well, they must be looking through oddly tinted glasses.

    In New York, Chicago, and LA, crime is going down while in surrounding suburban and smaller urban areas, crime is going up.
  • logic1logic1 Posts: 2,433
    And you know, a great deal is said all the time about people wanting vehicles big enough to stuff all manner of poeple and gear into, but hey! Marriage and child-bearing rates are both on the decline! There are lots of people who just plain don't need all that space! Even childless couples don't need that much space. Now if you feel you do I have no quarrel about that - only you know what you use your car for. But rather than just ASSUMING that "bigger is better", as most Americans do, and never stopping for a second to examine your priorities, how about considering that if you mostly drive around solo, or with just you and a spouse in the car, you don't REALLY need all that space. And perhaps you could take it a little easier on the planet, save a whole bunch of gas money, and buy in to maneuverability all in one shot by buying SMALLER instead.

    But storage space is your most consistent complaint about the Solstice/Sky.

    Given the Kappa car's popularity with many people who probably otherwise prefer larger vehicles, it stands to reason you would appreciate a stealth lesson in less is more to those otherwise reluctant to listen.
  • logic1logic1 Posts: 2,433
    You do not LOSE anything moving up to the next size. Even the fuel economy of the compacts was never that great - indeed, the Tacoma (the only one I know off the top of my head) maintained its FE rating with the latest generation, despite moving up from compact to midsize, and increasing in power by 20% (and by 0.3L in displacement).

    One thing that gets me to wondering was why the Colorado with the I4 is so oft criticized. The I4 has more than enough oomph for hauling furniture, bikes, or towing your jet ski or small boats - in short, what almost every typical consumer not in the building or agricultural trades needs a truck for. It gets decent mileage. It is also a very smooth and quiet little engine.

    Nevertheless, the small GM trucks are blasted for no V6 (and often for no V8).
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,046
    Well, they must be looking through oddly tinted glasses.

    It's hard to change people's perceptions once something gets ingrained in their mind. For example, you could probably never convince my grandmother to move into DC, because she remembers all the rioting, crime, violence, and when DC burned. Nevermind the fact that nowadays some of those once burnt-out rowhouse shells now go for a cool Million $ plus, and these days you could probably dress a man up in high heels, a dress, and makeup, and name him Sue and he wouldn't get jumped!

    But then on the flip side, a teenage girl's body was dumped less than 500 feet up the street from my grandma's house in the 'burbs, and a few years back I was mugged literally right outside my front door! :surprise:

    Now granted, there are still parts of DC where you wouldn't want to get stranded. And there is still a lot of poverty and despair. But by and large, the Big City is not what they made it out to be in "Good Times". I'd say it's more like "Bob Newhart" nowadays...and I don't ever remember Bob getting mugged or Emily getting gang-raped, or Carol the secretary getting kidnapped.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,046
    the Colorado got blasted is because its overall payload capacity and its towing capacity are actually down a bit over the S-10 it replaced. It's still probably more than adequate for most jobs, but it tends to still come in toward last place in most comparison tests.
  • logic1logic1 Posts: 2,433
    It's still probably more than adequate for most jobs, but it tends to still come in toward last place in most comparison tests.

    Clearly, appearance and comfort are an issue in this market segment and many feel GM does not match the competition.

    But the I4 decently, and relatively economically, meets, (as you say) the needs of most jobs in this segment. But people still want the larger V6s (and in the case of the Dodge, even an available V8).
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    I hope you didn't mean to imply that I had some complaint about the amount of storage space in the Solstice, because I have no opinion on the matter and have never expressed one. But if you meant in general, then I might weigh in with the thought that NONE of the little roadsters in Solstice's class have much in the way of storage, so it is to be expected.

    As for the Colorado, I am in agreement with you because I recently had one with the I-4 for several days. I was helping a friend haul out a ton of junk in his garage, off to the dump. We did many full loads above the top of the bed, the thing never felt strained. Hopefully, all of these smallest-class pick-ups will continue to offer a 4-cyl base engine for all the folks who use them for little things like driving their bikes and surfboards around. I should add that economical was one thing the Colorado was NOT, pulling around 18 mpg over two tankfuls of gas. But then it was loaded half the time.

    Now that has no bearing on how competitive the truck's optional engine is, and in this case, I have no personal seat experience in one with the I-5. All the competition are V-6s, most are more powerful aren't they? I guess the presumption is that if you are paying for the optional engine, then you really need the power for towing or heavy loads, whatever. Most likely the I-5 is enough to meet the need for most buyers.

    I am curious to see if the companies introducing new or revamped subcompacts this year see a decrease in sales of their compact cars as a result. I hope not, because that will make it more likely that they will be dropped after this model cycle. Chevy has updated the Aveo in a shorter-than-typical amount of time, while the Cobalt is beginning to age relative to its competition. Toyota has the Yaris against the 4 year old Corolla, while Honda has the Fit against the brand new Civic, some interesting contrasts. And wouldn't it be interesting if Ford reintroduced the Fiesta before they redo the Focus.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

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