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2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
The only thing wrong with the subcompacts so far, IMO, is their total lack of availability. They are selling so fast you can't even test drive a Fit or Yaris hatchback, and even the Yaris sedans come in and go out pretty quickly. To buy one the way you want it requires some fancy footwork.
Maybe the Versa (just now getting to dealers) will have a better supply channel and there will be more available to choose from. The xA and xB, of course, continue to be readily available because they are older models. And cripes, the only car model my local Chevy dealers stock is Aveo, rows and rows of them. Which means they must sell decently.
Where's the Fiesta? Come on Ford! They say, MAYBE by 2009. Well geez! How much lead time do you need? This is an existing model guys!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
For me to even consider a Nissan it's gonna have to wow me something large, ladies and germs. Nissan has come out with some of the homiest rigs on the planet IMHO. The Versa breaks that mold and looks pretty good.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Same here but I am hoping for the diesel.
Consider that like 90% of people commute alone. Not to mention, as stated above, RWD and mid-engine design.
While I don't think it is that high I will agree that a majority of people commute alone. Because of that and its high gas mileage I do think it has a chance here.
But I am worried - seems like there is no manual available. That will throw a wrench in the works, of course.
I think there is an automatic available, but not to sure on that.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
For $7,500 brand new, I'd get it.
Maybe one obstacle to my thinking is that, historically, the microcar has always been born out of poverty---certainly in Europe and even in the USA.
Cars like the bugeye Sprite or even Miata were justified as "sports cars" and the VW bug justified as "the affordable second car".
But the Smart coupe is neither a sports car (hardly!) nor any cheaper than any variety of excellent, roomier competitors.
I don't get how these things will sell except in very limited numbers to a narrow niche.
Unless a narrow niche and small sales are the point.
That assumes you *want* twice the car, and are willing to sacrifice mileage to get it. Most people do want that, which is why Honda sells a lot more Civics and Accords than Fits. However, there are enough people who flip that equation to make the Fit a viable offering, and I (and Roger Penske) think there are enough people who want to push that equation further to make the fortwo a viable offering.
And just to kill the "city car" meme, I live out in the boonies and I want one because almost all my driving is steady cruising at 60 mph, where most hybrids are just about useless. I carry a passenger (singular) maybe half a dozen times a year, and the bulkiest thing I'd put in a car is a 40-pound bag of salt pellets (bigger stuff goes in the truck). From that perspective, a 48 mpg Smart is a much better buy than a 33 mpg Fit with a trunk I don't need and a back seat I'll never use.
Fashion statement? And helps people with very poor parking skills. It's so hard to mess up parking it's not even funny.
I rented a Smart in Rome and drove it down to Napoli. This stretch of highway can get rather breezy in December when I made the trip.
The Smart was fairly skittish at speed already. The gusts of wind made things worse. I made it there and back alive. Nevertheless, I think a little bit more weight would be welcome.
Indeed, I believe even a motorcycle would have been preferable. The high profile of the Smart fortwo does not seem particularly aerodynamic.
Although there are places in Roma and Napoli where a Smart may as well have been a Hummer, so tight were the parking spaces in those ancient cities. :P
I look at it this way, for my daily commute and running some errands if the Smart can do it why not? Why buy the bigger less efficent car when I won't need the extra room. My daily drive rarely has a second person in it and I can't remember when there were three in it. I figure I will save $50-75/month in fuel costs so a Fit or Yaris/xA or Versa would actually cost more due to greater fuel usage.
I figure something like the Smart would be the perfect second car for commuting.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Speaking only for myself, gas prices would have to go up to maybe $6 a gallon for me to sacrifice the carrying capacity of a Fit for a Smart but still pay the same MSRP.
I see the Smart as a European concept that will not translate to America except in big cities or as a city carshare vehicle that receives parking and financial perks from government.
But a free market competitor? I still can't see it at that price point.
There is no "bang" for this buck, is there? Where?
Again if I am never going to use the extra two seats and the extra luggage capacity then losing it in exchange for $450/year in gas savings is a bargain.
And then you'll get whacked on resale, because your relatively expensive Smart car,
Well we don't know what price point the Smart will be in the US. Hopefully it will be on the low end of what they are going for in Europe.
I see the Smart as a European concept that will not translate to America except in big cities
My understanding is that it will only be marketed in urban areas.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If they're cheap enough to make, and sell at the lower end, they might be profitable enough to sell. And that's the key.
I would not even go that far. I live in Manhattan. Parking is so scarce and so subject to regulation here that parking a motorcycle on the street can be a major hassle.
Most Manhattan residents either pay out for garage parking -where slots are usually big enough for at least a small hatch - or just use the excellent mass transit.
I suppose if you were making multiple trips around Manhattan on a frequent basis, the Smart may work for you. But unless you were carrying something (and then the lack of storage space will hurt) mass transit or livery service still usually going to be the better choice.
Indeed, something in the area of 25% of Manhattan residents do not even bother getting a drivers license. I don't think many of these people will be running down to the license office just so they splurge on a Smart.
Besides all that, having lived in both Manhattan and San Francisco, I am skeptical of the ability of a tiny car to survive the mean streets. I think it would get demolished just sitting in a parking space. Rugged bumper bars would be in order.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Try getting that among the current crop of subs. Plus, I get the bonus of 60 mpg. And yes, for this privilege I may have to pony up as much as some compact cars cost. But I am so sick of the monotone, hard plastics and lack of options on most of the subs (Mini excepted as usual, of course!), I will pay the premium to get premium.
Footnote: while Mini is a cut above in many ways, I do not find that much more to like about its interior than I do about the interiors of some of the other less pricey entrants in this group.
Edit: try parking in the Haight some time, one area of San Francisco I go quite a bit. Residents there will leave their vehicle in one place for a week and inconvenience themselves if they find a good parking spot. I can just imagine what advantage the ForTwo could be put to there. And in the Sunset, another area where I spend quite a bit of time. Parking is tight, and the Smart seems like the perfect SF runabout.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Sounds as though SF allows overnight parking then.
In most parts of Manhattan, it does not matter how small your vehicle is. For every given parking spot, there is at least some part of the day you cannot park there.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I could see someone in Brooklyn or Queens keeping a Smart for errands and trips around the city. Although even in those Boroughs, the mass transit is pretty good.
I think the last time Magneto (or focusmatt for those of us who go really far back) was posting he had moved to Brooklyn. At the time he said he was going to go carless. Maybe he will pick up a Smart and come back as Smartmatt.
Much of SF is metered now, even on side street corner spots, so the size of the car doesn't matter so much.
What would matter more to me in a metro environment would be how easy the car is to drive. A micro car with a balky shifter or bad visibility for instance, would be of no use to me.
Owning a car in Manhattan is nuts.
Anyway, it was never my intention to make this the ForTwo discussion. The xA is a great little car for downtown maneuvering too, and my only complaint with it continues the same: no factory cruise available at any price! :-(
And some soft-touch materials on the windowsills would be nice too...and a little splash of color? The ergonomics in the xA are perfect though.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
http://www.allscion.com/cruisecontrol.html
Ain't the aftermarket wonderful?
That item is on my list for the "Scion xA March To Perfection", my $1,250 campaign to put into the xA what Toyota regrettably left out.
What's wrong with the xA?
1. Handles like a drunk hog on ice (add rear sway bar, add front strut bar, add better tires with stronger sidewalls)
2. Seat fabric too hot (add Maxi-cool slip covers)
3. No cruise control (see above)
4. Sounds like a can of gnats (add DC Sports muffler)
So do I, put a brick on the gas pedal. :P
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
As for the handling abilities of the stock xA, I think they're pretty good for a $13K car, but you're right, they call for some improvements if you are in any way an enthusiastic driver. :-)
If you leave the stock tires in place, though, they won't be too costly to replace once the time comes. I am sure that was on the minds of the designers when they were designating the rims and tires.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
So what would that do...make it sound like a can of gnats that got into the Pace Picante Sauce? :P
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaammuputugggggggggahaaaaaaaaaa
or something like that.
Very true. You sit high in the car and it has a lot of window space. Depending upon the configuration, you can remove the top in nice weather as well.
The high and narrow design, while great for city driving, however, does make it somewhat skittish at speed.
Of all the micro hatches, I think Mini addresses handling the best. It is no coincidence that Minis ride comparatively low to the ground.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The Mini also has an extra 2-300 pounds of crud buried somewhere in the undercarriage.
On a slightly different topic, I don't see where people get the idea that the Mini is any smaller than other subcompacts. It's no smaller than my Accent, and noticeably chunkier than a '92 Civic hatchback.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
According to Edmunds, a 2006 Accent is 168.5" long. Now to someone like me, who considers anything below about 190" to be small, that difference might be inconsequential, but you're still talking over two feet of difference. That's like the difference between my '79 New Yorker and a new 300!
Interestingly, a Mini doesn't appear to be very nimble in parking maneuvers, given its small size. It's turning circle is 34.8 feet. The Accent's is around 33.1 feet. You'd think that a car with a shorter wheelbase would have a tighter turning circle, but I think that's more of a function of how sharply the front wheels are capable of turning, than wheelbase.
Not sure where I said the Mini is smaller than other subs, just that I feel it handles better than most of its counterparts.
The 07 will come with more hp but apparently no worse gas mileage. While acknowledging the interior is a little cramped, the handling, look, safety, and over all character of the Mini are hard to match. It has had reliability issues. It would be nice if BMW signed up more Mini dealers as well.
Edmunds only specs for the 4 door Accent. The 4 door is 168 inches compared to 142 inch Mini.
Many cars in 2006 are larger than their early 90s counterparts. The Honda Civic itself is larger than its early 90s counterpart. Improvements in aerodynamics, metal alloys, and engine and transmission technology still has them getting better gas mileage and polluting less.
Just for comparison, the '06 Civic sedan is 176.7". That's really not a big increase in length from the 1992. However, weight is up a few hundred pounds, and they're wider and taller, and even though it's rated as a subcompact by the EPA, it rides a 106.3" wheelbase, which is around what most midsized cars were back in 1992.
Surprising indeed.
The only Mini I drove was a rental in LA. I did not have to parallell park all that often. I guess I did not notice. The car was very tight (and this had the base suspension). It really liked cornering on the streets in Laurel Canyon.
I wonder if the Mini turning radius isn't being limited by the relatively large tires and suspension components.
Mr. Shiftright, you have an engineering background I believe. Any thoughts?
On more then one occasion I did a U-turn on a two lane street with almost no shoulder. I even did a 3rd gear full lock power slide turn with the help of the emergancy brake right before I got new tires.
It's still way more maneuverable than anything I've ever owned! For comparison, my Intrepid's turning circle is 37.6 feet, according to Edmunds, but I've had cars that I'm sure are well over 40 feet! I'd imagine my pickup, with its 131" wheelbase, is pretty bad. I actually think my Intrepid is easy to parallel park, simply because its turning circle is tighter than anything else I've ever owned. Plus, the front and rear of the car are extremely tapered, making it more maneuverable in tight cornering than a shorter car with a flatter front and rear might be. The only downside is that visibility sucks, bigtime.
I dunno if large tires would necessarily change a turning circle, although they might if they're wide enough that the wheels need to be redesigned so they don't cut as sharply, for fear of rubbing something. I would think that the biggest factor would simply be how much room there is in the wheel wells for the wheels to be able to cut right and left. With a FWD car with a transverse engine, that takes up a lot of room between the front tires, and might limit how far you can turn the wheels. Or simply a car where the frame/subframe rails are close to the wheels.
Now that is driving!
As you correctly point out, not recommended if you are fond of your tires, however.
Makes sense.
I drove my wife, SIL and MIL to Vermont in back four hour one way trip in the MINI and everyone was ok. Yes the space in the back is very small but luckely my SIL and MIL are both very short. I just slid my seat up a couple of inches and so did my wife and we all fit.
Width and lack of overhang are components in overall better handling character, however.
In any event, the actual length of the car would appear to me anyway to be the most important consideration when comparing size. Especially if you are driving places where space is a premium.
I really liked the MINI (overstyled interior notwithstanding) but the price for the S model and the quite-a-bit-less-than-stellar reliability records scared me off. I had no intention of taking a $24,000 crap shoot on reliability AND getting a car that was fairly lame for carrying anything bigger than a cat and a cantaloupe.
I mean FUN is FUN and god knows I've paid a premium for it in the past, but the MINI strikes me leaning far over on the "frivolous" side of the automobile world. And if I need frivolous and dicey dependability, I can always find an MG :P
Shoot I could put a Blitz turbo kit and handling mods on a Fit or xA and have enough money left over for a posh vacation or two before I ate up 24K total. And I'd probably have a more reliable and useful car than can still run with the wolves...well, with the terriers maybe....
I have to admit that the Mini had tons of leg room and head room, I was pleasantly surprised by that. What I don't like is lack of shoulder room in it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D