What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

snakeweasel

Of course, I could just take my pickup and thoughtfully rearrange things from time to time

That would only give you momentary pleasure and is bound to get you talked about.

rorr

"That would only give you momentary pleasure and is bound to get you talked about."

Has that ever really stopped ANY of us before?

Mr_Shiftright

Well okay, you are one of those people who value "smallness" over anything else....fair enough. The Smart's for you then. I can buy that, if that's your criteria.

But any argument presented to me right now, based upon "fuel economy" or "parking" all fall apart when you do the numbers in the real world IMO.

I think the next generation of TDIs coming out are going to be really tough to compete against for fuel economy. I bet they'll bust 50 mpg EPA.

snakeweasel

Well okay, you are one of those people who value "smallness" over anything else.

No I am not. Do you read what I write?

I value the "right sized" vehicle. Of course that is tempered by other considerations. I am all fine for paying more for a bigger car if you need a bigger car. However why pay more for something I am never going to use? I mean if we take the bigger is better route we would all be driving Greyhound buses.

So answer me this, if in the last two or three years no one has been in my back seat why would I need a car with a back seat, especially if there is another car with one at my disposal?

In short if the Smart fits my needs for a commuter car and is at a low enough cost and has as goo or better gas mileage then why not get one?

As an only car I would not recommend a Smart, but in my case my wife would still have the larger 4 door sedan that she would use for commuting and we have the Caddy so why get bigger when I won't need it?

But any argument presented to me right now, based upon "fuel economy" or "parking" all fall apart when you do the numbers in the real world IMO.

The numbers for fuel economy are true and hold up. If I drove the diesel smart my weekly fuel costs would drop in half. Thats nothing to sneeze at. As for parking that is wholly dependent on where you are.

I think the next generation of TDIs coming out are going to be really tough to compete against for fuel economy. I bet they'll bust 50 mpg EPA.

I think the last ones were mid 40's. Still even in the low 50's they are not close to the Smarts 63MPG. Not to mention that if the Smart comes in at the same price that they are selling in the UK it will be a lot cheaper than a TDI.

Mr_Shiftright

Okay so let's do the math. What's the annual savings from 50 mpg to 63 mpg over 12,000 miles? Figure $3.25 a gallon.

comes out to.....$162 a year.

Don't you think most people operate out of "incentives" of some sort? Well economists and social scientists seem to think so. Does anyone see any "incentives", either economic or social, that would lever *most* people out of their Honda Fit, Toyota Yaris or VW TDI and into a Smart? That is, on the horizon right here right now, with the Smarts that are available to us?

stickguy

I'll go back to the competition from above. That is, the "compact" (even though some compacts are getting kind of big..) are getting to be darned nice.

I just read a review of the new Sentra, and it sounds like it is approaching the Altima in interior space! Well, probably as roomy as the last generation. Plus, it has tons of features, respectable power, drives nice, etc.

So, combine that with the fact that it gets almost as good (rated) MPG as the Versa, and doesn't cost much more, it just seems like a good value, plus it is probably more of the type/size of a car that most American's prefer.

You can make a similar case about the Fit/Civic, and Yaris/corolla (although I hate the current Corolla).

Maybe it's just the supersize mentality (hey, who gets a medium soda at the movies when the gallon trough is only $.25 more??

On the flip side, to my liking at least, the smaller models at least offer hatchbacks, unlike the compact class. A nice Civic or Sentra wagon (or that nifty 5 door Euro Civic) would be really sweet, even if I would be one of the few people to buy one.

final point, when you are trying to win over buyers trying to get out of an Explorer, or some other relative gas guzzler, even an Accord looks like an economy car, so i don't think the average buyer is desperate for ultra mileage. Probably anything over 30 is plenty to make them happy.

snakeweasel

comes out to.....$162 a year.

Good since $162 is no big deal for you I will send you my address and I will expect a yearly check from you for $162. Also remember that gas is going to do nothing but go up. Not to mention that the TDI will most likely cost more to begin with. It all adds up.

Don't you think most people operate out of "incentives" of some sort?

Yes I do, thats why I think the Smart would have some limited success if it come in under $13K.

Does anyone see any "incentives", either economic or social, that would lever *most* people out of their Honda Fit, Toyota Yaris or VW TDI and into a Smart?

Well lets see, I can easily see economic incentives if the Smart comes in at the price that they are selling in the UK of 6,775 Pounds (12,800 USD) which would make it cheaper than most of these cars, as well as saving gas money.

If it fits my needs and saves me money what more incentive would I need?

tsgeisel

Recently the workplace picked up some Gem cars - really just glorified golf cars - for getting between buildings. I can see Smart cars being used in similar situations; as a fleet car for inter-office transportation.

Because it's a car, there's no special training needed. While it's only a 2-person vehicle, that works in its favor in loaner terms, as there's less incentive to abuse it. And good gas milage is a bonus.

So perhaps it will have a home on large sprawling corporate campuses and such.

isellhondas

I would happily spend 162.00 a year so I wouldn't have to drive around in a cramped, noisy goofy looking car like a Smart.

snakeweasel

Have you sat in one? I didn't feel cramped. And I wouldn't talk goofy if I were you, Honda has a few [Element] dogs out there.

andre1969

so I can't comment on how it would feel compared to a Fit or a Yaris. For all intents and purposes, a Fit/Yaris BECOMES a 2-seater when you put the front seats all the way back. Or at best, a 3-seater if one of the front seat occupants is short, or you put the third passenger in sideways. But I guess a Fit/Yaris would still have much more cargo room than a Smart.

I can see the thing carving a niche out for itself. And it wouldn't take up much room in the garage. I wonder though, if that $162 a year you save in fuel might end up getting offset by higher insurance costs? Would they really jack you up for something like a Smart, or would the insurance rates still be comparable to a Fit/Yaris?

Mr_Shiftright

Well, we're goin' around in circles here aren't we?

QUESTION:

Could it be that the concept of the Smart is the "reverse fallacy" of the concept of the Hummer? In other words, if large is good, larger is better, and larger still better still...ad absurdum....

Maybe a "small" car has a point where it's too small just like large car has a point where it's too large....?

Or putting it another way, the "smallness" or the "largeness" becomes increasingly of less and less benefit the larger or smaller it gets....

snakeweasel

Or putting it another way, the "smallness" or the "largeness" becomes increasingly of less and less benefit the larger or smaller it gets....

That would depend on what your needs are and at what stage you are at in getting larger/smaller.

boaz47

It is a true sub Compact. The Versa isn't and I am not sure the Fit qualifies. I agree the small cars do have a weirdness factor built in and that may be proportional. Even if Gas has dropped 50 cents a gallon in my area I realize people might be looking for something smaller than a Expidition. But if I was looking for something strictly for transportation I think a Motorcycle is a better option for those of us that live in Southern California. If parking is a problem for anyone they are much easier to park than a Smart. You can get much better fuel mileage with a motorcycle and still get on the freeway quicker than most cars. I used to park mine on the sidewalk next to the store I was visiting or even on the dock where I worked. I can get a 250 or 500 and still get better fuel mileage than a Smart. So if you don't carry anything or anyone why even bother with a Smart? Other than they will get you looks. Now for just driving around our little community? Those goofy electric cars someone was talking about earlier are looking better every day, even if I paid less than 3 bucks a gallon for gas today. It just that nothing looks all that good if it going to cost me more than 10k for a second vehicle. And if it is more than 14k I just think I should get more than an entry level Sub Compact. For 25 cents more why not supersize? If you live in states that resemble the frozen tundra in the winter then a 4 wheel tupperware car might make sense. But to each his own as they say. The smart isn't any less attractive than a Element or xB, or Sportage.

Mr_Shiftright

Electrics make more sense because in converting electric charging rates to MPG it comes out to about .50 to 1.50 cents a gallon, roughly, more or less, depending where you live and your charging voltages. Or so I've read.

Another problem for Smart is that if you look historically at any place where microcars have succeeded (and I think a Smart should be called a "microcar", not a "subcompact", personally), this success was always born "in hard times"...postwar Europe, postwar Japan.

Microcars have the auro of poverty that still sticks to them. I suppose a $24,000 price tag from ZAP cures that, but I dunno.....

Which reminds me....ZAP is near me...I should see if I can drive a Smart and report back...driving is believing (or not).

wtd44

The Smart I sat in at a local "dealership" was very comfortable and accommodating to human anatomy. I stepped out of my Mercury Mountaineer to step into the Smart, so I even had an immediate mind set for comfort that would be difficult for most any smaller vehicle to overcome. Perhaps the Daimlerized Smart has so much seating comfort that little else will fit in the interior. Now, hearing that the three cylinder motorcycle-esque engine was like some 750cc in size, and electronically governed to not exceed 85 MPH, and me living in the Front Range zone of the Rockies, where I-25 is king, I became discouraged. My Suzuki M109R VZR1800 motorcycle will do it all, but not turn back the wetness I'll suffer under bridges while the Smart trundles by in rain and snow...

lhanson

To all the people on this board who wouldn't be caught dead (or is it alive?) in a car without side curtain airbags, the thought of riding a motorcyle to save money must be about as welcome as fingernails on a blackboard. I would assume that the least safe car on the road would be much safer than the safest motorcyle in a crash situation by a huge margin. Does anybody have any accident statistics on this?

wtd44

You must remember that no one rides motorcycles for the purpose of assuring their own safety in traffic! I do recall many years back that some statistics came out that said the only four wheeler on the road more dangerous to the passenger(s) than a motorcycle was the Jeep CJ. Who knows the facts?

Mr_Shiftright

I can only say I feel safer on a motorcycle than in a car, and have a 20 year record of not a scratch. But sure, if I braodside a truck, I'm toast....I think the *real* statistic to find would be "accidents with injuries per miles driven" vis a vis a car. If you did that for instance, you'd find (amazingly enough) that driving and flying are about the same in terms of safety. You would think otherwise if you just read the # of people killed in cars vs. airplanes.... (see "Freakonomics" for a discussion about this).

british_rover

Ask and you shall receive ...

http://www.volpe.dot.gov/infosrc/journal/2005/pdfs/vj05intro.pdf

Not that greatest since it is not per million miles driven vs million miles flown but better then nothing.

nippononly

"Maybe it's just the supersize mentality (hey, who gets a medium soda at the movies when the gallon trough is only $.25 more??"

This is a big part of the problem in America, and not just in cars! Of course, the movie Supersize Me showed the downside of supersizing fast food combo meals, but then, did it change very many peoples' eating habits? Nope.

There are practical downsides to supersizing everything, and that includes the car one drives.

Oh, and for the record, I choose the medium soda at the movies if that's how thirsty I am, even if the unlimited-refill soda bucket is only a quarter more. :-)

What's that old saying? "Moderation in all things..."

edit...PS The Smart Fortwo is DEFINITELY a microcar, not a subcompact. But it demonstrates one of the best modern car design advances that have also been applied to the new subcompacts - maximization of interior space in a small package, ESPECIALLY for driver and passenger room.

snakeweasel

Oh, and for the record, I choose the medium soda at the movies if that's how thirsty I am, even if the unlimited-refill soda bucket is only a quarter more.

I usually get a beer along with a pizza.

stickguy

the motorcycle talk reminded me of an alternative to the Smart in the "micro" arena. I remember seeing on TV (autoweek I think) a review of some kind of enclosed motorcycle, almost like a sidecar wrapped in an egg, but with 2 wheels (how's that for a visual?)

Anyway, I don't remember exactly how it drove, but it had 2 side legs that dropped down when it stopped to keep it from tipping over.

Anyway, it just seemed to answer the bad weather (and to a leser degree the safety) advantage of the Smart over a plain cycle.

stickguy

if they sold beer and pizza at my local cinema, I'd see more movies!

plekto

About the size thing:

The reality is that people want a 1-seater for themselves to drive somewhere, and maybe to pick up their girlfriend/etc. In Japanj, for instance, the K-cars do well because they are small, agile, and of course they cost a boatload less than anything else.

Consider the following cars that you can purchase for under $12K:
Aveo
Scion Xa
Yaris
Base Accent
(sorry , the Fit is too pricey)
Now how many actually have ABS, side airbags, a CD player, A/C, and so on? A Yaris is just as crunched, small, and anemic as any of the competition, including the Smart. That's how people will see it. Small and smaller are just parts of the same category.

The thing is... it gets 45-50mpg. The Aveo and Yaris aren't even close, have less features, and honestly, as someone else pointed out, the rear seats are there for looks if you are over 5ft tall/push the seat back more than 2 inches. 35mpg, useless rear seats, and less features or 2 good seats and 45mpg, with the goodies?

Yes, there is a market. Just look at the Mini. Tiny luxury is a big deal for a significant portion of the population.

explorerx4

no 'passenger mile stats'. that was always one of my issues with the archived 'idlswdy?' debate.

brightness04

Why medium soda? does one really need all that sugar and carbonic acid (damaging teeth)? what's wrong with bringing in your own bottle of water, and saving a buck or two in the process? Heck, why wasting gas and money going to the movie theater when the same flick can be had a few months later for nearly free on a netflix subscription?

That's a big part of those self-righteous about car sizing: missing the much bigger picture.

brightness04

To some people, the value of keeping their own address private is worth more than $162. Likewise, the statistic safety advantage of riding in a bigger car for their family is worth more than a few measely dollars.

brightness04

And you'd be really sorry the other half the time if your car were capped at 45mph ;-)

nippononly

Who's self-righteous? It's not a righteous choice to buy enough without buying too much, it's just practical (and often economical).

But the movie theaters don't let you bring in your own drinks or food generally. And besides, the movie drink thing was more of a metaphor than an exact example. :-)

brightness04

What will be enough 3 to 10 years into the future is a highly speculative decision. For most people, buying cars is like buying houses . . . due to the high transaction cost, it's almost always better to buy somewhat more than one's current needs at the time of purchase . . . for the simple reason that if you can keep the car for 4-5 years instead of 2-3 years and have to get a bigger car after that due to life style change (getting married, having kids, find a new hobby, whatever), the savings from avoiding depreciation hit getting restarted far outweigh any savings from getting a subcompact vs. a compact now.

The movie theater metaphor is a rather apt one. Savings you can squeeze out of "precise sizing" is minuscule compared to what you can save by looking at the bigger picture: e.g. smuggling in your own bottled water or wait for DVD release and get to watch the movie for nearly free via netflix delivery.

snakeweasel

There is a place in the Chicago burbs called Hollywood Blvd. that seats you at tables and serves you dinner during the movie. They have a full menu and also serves alcoholic drinks.

You can also just see the movie and get popcorn and sodas.

snakeweasel

Actually the Scion Xa starts at over $12K, plus you forgot the Kia Rio in the under $12K list.

A Yaris is just as crunched, small, and anemic as any of the competition, including the Smart. That's how people will see it. Small and smaller are just parts of the same category.

Yep the first time I saw a Yaris I thought "Man that thing is small"

snakeweasel

why wasting gas and money going to the movie theater when the same flick can be had a few months later for nearly free on a netflix subscription?

[I know this is off topic] Because no home theater has yet to come close to a good movie theater in experience.

snakeweasel

To some people, the value of keeping their own address private is worth more than $162.

What has that to do with the price of rhubarb?

Likewise, the statistic safety advantage of riding in a bigger car for their family is worth more than a few measely dollars.

Bigger does not always mean safer.

snakeweasel

Immaterial since the car is not capped at 45 MPH.

Mr_Shiftright

oh, c'mon...the Yaris and Scion xA are to a Smart as a house is to a bird feeder...it's WAY bigger, visually and voume-wise. Check out my carspace page and see pix of what I stuffed into an xA. You aren't getting too much more than a cat and a cantaloupe into a Smart. And yes, the xA comes standard with AC, CD, airbags and ABS...no extra cost.

SOME STATS on new diesel hybrids:

Okay tracked down some info on the next generation of small diesel hybrids out of Europe. The Peugeot and Citroen hybrid cars are subcompacts with 1.6 liter diesel engines registering 69 mpg. They will appear late 2007 early 2008. The Smart fortwo hybrid diesel is a microcar with a 799cc unit achieving 81 mpg. Note that the Smart takes 17.8 seconds to go from 0-60, about twice the other cars.

Makes me think all the more that Smart is a limited car for a limited audience and at this point at least, has been rendered basically unmarketable to mainstream America by new sophisticated diesel/hybrid technology. As Road and Track said recently: "this car on our modern freeways?"

logic1

it's almost always better to buy somewhat more than one's current needs at the time of purchase . . . for the simple reason that if you can keep the car for 4-5 years instead of 2-3 years and have to get a bigger car after that due to life style change (getting married, having kids, find a new hobby, whatever)

The argument can just as easily be turned around to say that by buying what you need and maintaining a sense of discipline, you will not be tempted to adopt wasteful habits.

snakeweasel

oh, c'mon...the Yaris and Scion xA are to a Smart as a house is to a bird feeder...

I mentioned the Yaris not the uglymobile. And the Yaris is small.

Check out my carspace page and see pix of what I stuffed into an xA.

I bet I could fit more into my Elantra and thats a small car.

You aren't getting too much more than a cat and a cantaloupe into a Smart.

You can fit a few bags of groceries in a Smart.

Note that the Smart takes 17.8 seconds to go from 0-60, about twice the other cars.

Since the Smart is going to be sold only in major metropolitan areas where traffic rarely gets to 60 MPH and fast accelerations times are a waste I don't see that as a problem with a Smart.

Makes me think all the more that Smart is a limited car for a limited audience

To one extent or another every car is like that. Otherwise we would all be driving the exact same thing.

As Road and Track said recently: "this car on our modern freeways?"

Its not a highway cruising car so please don't make it out to be one. It is a commuter car and lets face it there are plenty of cars out there that are used strictly for commuting and rarely see more than one person in it.

Why are you so dead set against a car that if it comes in at the right price would be perfect for many, many people?

snakeweasel

due to the high transaction cost, it's almost always better to buy somewhat more than one's current needs at the time of purchase . . . for the simple reason that if you can keep the car for 4-5 years instead of 2-3 years and have to get a bigger car after that due to life style change

I wouldn't go so far as to say almost always or even the vast majority of the time. As an example, me and "she who must be obeyed" are empty nesters. Since both brats (oops I mean kids) are on their own and no new ones will come our way why buy a bigger car or house than we currently need? And we are not an isolated case. there are plenty of empty nesters, DINK's (Double Income No Kids), single people with no plans of a family, retirees and the like whose needs are not going to increase.

Even with the young and newly weds who are planning on having a family later one (say five or more years down the line) buying bigger than you need for the future may not be the best thing.

Kirstie_H

You aren't getting too much more than a cat and a cantaloupe into a Smart.

This is silly. Everyone knows that cats hate car rides, and without the cat as a space-filler, the cantaloupe would just roll around.

nippononly

We see eye to eye on this one, logic!

Not to mention, around here a lot of people who improve their financial situation move into San Francisco, where the big car they bought in the burbs would be LESS practical, not more. So your future needs could just as easily be for a SMALLER car as for a bigger one.

People I know that do have kids and bought a larger car as a consequence carry around about a thousand things in the car that neither they nor the kids ever touch. Often, buying the bigger vehicle can indeed just pave the way for adopting wasteful practices.

logic1

Not to mention, around here a lot of people who improve their financial situation move into San Francisco, where the big car they bought in the burbs would be LESS practical, not more.

Well, if any of my fellow NYers caught me posting this, I would probably be burned at the stake, but yeah, if I could, 900 square feet in SOMA, a SMART and a bike to supplement the BART and Bus. Daily hikes in the Presidio. Weekends up in Marin and Sonoma on the mountain bike trails. What a life that would be!

Mr_Shiftright

I used to drive my cat around....

Well you need a car in SF because public transportation is rather lame...but it's much easier to own a car in San Francisco than NYC, the latter being just about impossible.

ELANTRA---no way you'll get the same cargo into it as an xA....big lunch says you'll get close but won't make it.

check it out,
http://www.carspace.com/mr_shiftright

and yes, you can use the front seat but you can't use a trash compacter! (what'll stop you is the height and length of some of the boxes, not necessarily the volume.

The Smart couldn't carry 1/10th of this stuff even though it's 2/3rds the size.

INCENTIVES TO BUY: Presently with the Prius, you get a) ultra-clean (unequalled) emissions, tax break, commuter lane pass, status of advanced hybrid technology.

With the Smart, you get none of the above at the present time.

jlawrence01

Seems to me that you would be better off buying the smallest car that meets 95% of your need and renting a larger vehicle when you need to haul freight. Home Depot rents pick-ups for $19.99/day in many markets as do some of the U-Haul type organizations.

snakeweasel

check it out,

Checked it out, yep it would fit, no problem.

and yes, you can use the front seat but you can't use a trash compacter!

Wouldn't need the front seat, just would have to fold down the back seat.

Just remember I am driving this:



Not this:



INCENTIVES TO BUY: Presently with the Prius,

There really is no real incentive to buy except for the "look at me" factor and the so called feel good factor. The tax break is fastly disappearing and doesn't really offset the extra cost, we don't have commuter lanes here and even if we did allowing hybrids to use them goes against the reasoning for them. As for the advanced hybrid technology, thats just makes it more complicated, more prone to breakdowns and more expensive to fix when they need repairs.

andre1969

ELANTRA---no way you'll get the same cargo into it as an xA....big lunch says you'll get close but won't make it.

Believe it or not, the EPA actually classifies the Elantra as a MIDSIZED car! 95 cubic feet of interior room, 13 cubic feet of trunk space. The xA is classified as a subcompact, with 86 cubic feet of interior room and 12 cubic feet of trunk space. Of course, being a hatchback, the xA's cargo area is going to be more versatile than an Elantra sedan. Still, if you use the back seat of the Elantra AND the trunk, you're going to have more than enough room to haul the stuff in that picture, without having to spill over into the front seat.

I've sat in Elantras at the auto show, and have been impressed at how roomy they are. They're what I'd call a "4-passenger" midsize, along with the Prius. A car that can hold four good-sized adults in comfort with good room, and has the interior volume to eke past the EPA's midsized standard, but still not having quite the shoulder room of most midsized cars (usually ~57-59 inches)

andre1969

There really is no real incentive to buy except for the "look at me" factor and the so called feel good factor.

Ah yes, the "Smug Alert", as it was called on "South Park". :P

I forgot that you had the wagon, Snake. Still, I'm sure that all that stuff could comfortably fit in the Elantra sedan, as well.

snakeweasel

Seems to me that you would be better off buying the smallest car that meets 95% of your need and renting a larger vehicle when you need to haul freight.

Not always. What if the smallest car that fits your needs costs $20K and gets 35 MPG. wouldn't you be better off getting a bigger car that costs $15K and gets 40 MPG? All other things considered.

qbrozen

Wow!! Its amazing to me how something so convoluted can actually get printed.

deaths per 100m miles driven ... ok... off to a good start ... vs deaths in RR crossings per 100m miles ... ok... makes sense ... vs fatal crashes per million plane departures ... Wha?? Just where the hell did that connection come from??