What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

british_rover

Yeah but it is not really free. It is just like our complemntary service for Rovers it is built into the price of the car.

Mr_Shiftright

My only complaint with center gauges, at least on the Scion, is that you have to reach too far to reset the mileage counter (trip meters--there are two of them).

My only other complaint is that there is no temperature gauge, which I consider an abomination on a modern car.

kyfdx

Shifty goes to the dealer and pays $28.. I go to the dealer and pay $ZERO... Apples to Apples..

Even if I buy my car used from a private seller, I pay $ZERO...

rorr

Of course, the bill for the 10,000 mile service on a BMW 3 series is....ZIP.

Notice, I didn't say that the service was 'free'. You've already PAID for the service, it's just included in the initial purchase price.

rorr

Hey! You beat me to it!

tsgeisel

Tachometer has become standard, even on cars with an automatic. Probably because they want to use the same info console as for the manual transmission cars.

There's little that's more useless than a tachometer on an auto transmission car, but there you go. I can see it being useful in a few years, when I can compare my idle RPMs then with where they are now; similarly with comparing while at cruising speeds as well.

andre1969

for $28? An oil change? I can't imagine they'd do much more than that for $28. Maybe change the air filter if they're really running a special.

kyfdx

.has dropped the temperature gauge, I think.. silly..

andre1969

the last time I overheated a car. I think it was my 1989 Gran Fury way back in 2000, which had its cooling system clog up on me and ended up needing one new freeze plug and a new radiator. But still, as high-strung as today's engines are, not to mention the high cost to replace them when you destroy them, I'd think a temp gauge would be one of the most critical gauges there is in a car. Unless you want to just play it by ear and wait for the warning light to come on and hear the valves clatter, and wait until then to shut it off! :sick:

It seems to me that with the way they have computers monitoring everything these days, it would almost be cheaper than back in the day to have more gauges in the car. Or is the computer smart enough these days that if the car begins to get too hot it can go into limp mode, and stave off real damage? Somehow I doubt that.

snakeweasel

There's little that's more useless than a tachometer on an auto transmission car, but there you go.

Oh I don't know. My daily drive is an auto with a tach. Since it is getting up in age, and miles, I tend to keep an eye on the tach as not to let it get above a certain RPM during acceleration. Helps save gas too.

andre1969

Oh I don't know. My daily drive is an auto with a tach. Since it is getting up in age, and miles, I tend to keep an eye on the tach as not to let it get above a certain RPM during acceleration. Helps save gas too.

Yeah, I like to do that too. Plus, I like to be able to compare what different cars rev at, at various speeds and it makes it real easy to do so. Of course, it's not always a reliable indicator of fuel economy. My Intrepid does about 2000 rpm @ 60 mph and gets about 26-28 on the highway. Just imagine what kind of mileage it would get if I could keep it at 60! My buddy's Xterra looks like it holds around 1600 rpm @ 60, but if you totally take your foot off of it, it'll drop to 1000. However, it doesn't get anywhere near 26-28! :P

A tach is also a good tool to use to check up on the condition of your car. If you notice that normally you pull 2000 rpm@ 60 mph but suddenly you're spiking a bit above that, you know something's wrong. Or if you normally idle at 600 rpm but lately it's been doing 400, you know something ain't right either. But then, the engine might be making some kind of stupid noise by then anyway to give you a clue.

michaellno

Funny, I'm trying to remember the last car I've owned that didn't have a tach!

The '87 Isuzu P'up that my first wife bought before we got married, I believe.

kyfdx

'76 Jeep CJ-5..

Only other one without.. '70 Ford Galaxie coupe..

tsgeisel

My '96 Civic DX didn't have one.

nippononly

I think even now, the Civic DX doesn't have a tach, but I forget. Tachs are ALMOST standard now, though. It just blows my mind that they economized with something so obvious and so cheap to begin with.

Meanwhile, the trend is the other way with temp gauges - more and more cars don't have them. The latest to join this trend - the new Volvo S80. And the new 3-series as mentioned above. And the Fit, on the subcompact end.

And yes, andre, there are cars that go into limp home mode when they are overheating, so a temp gauge is less and less necessary as time goes by. I still would like to have one though. But it's less important to me - the Echo and Yaris (and Scions) have a blue light for 'cold' and a red light for 'overheat' (which flashes at temps above normal but below redline), so I can tell if it's in trouble or stone cold.

Besides, if this is the latest trend, who am I to fight it, eh?! ;-)
Too much information for the driver is a BAD thing, right?? :-P

andre1969

Besides, if this is the latest trend, who am I to fight it, eh?!
Too much information for the driver is a BAD thing, right??

Funny, but I think they started trending away from real gauges and to idiot lights back in the late 50's for just those very reasons. I think people might have started panicking when they saw a certain gauge spike too high, swoop too low, or even fluctuate like those amp gauges would do when you had you were at a full stop and had your turn signal on. So instead of worrying people like that over minor little things, they started taking out gauges and replacing them with idiot lights. I know in '57 a Plymouth didn't have an amp or oil pressure gauge, but I can't remember if it did in '56. I think Chevies only had fuel and temp, but I can't remember now. Buicks, interestingly had full gauges that year but Oldsmobiles only had a fuel gauge. I think Pontiacs still had full gauges, as did Cadillacs. Dodges, DeSotos, Chryslers, and Imperials had full gauges. Can't remember Mercury or Lincoln, though.

I think Chevy went to the "hot" and "cold" lights for temperature in 1959 or soon thereafter. I had a 1967 Newport that had a green light that came on when the engine was cold and the requisite red light for overheating. Also in 1967, the big Pontiacs only had fuel and amps. I thought it was odd that they'd make an amp gauge standard...wouldn't temp or oil be more important? :confuse: In 1969 it was just a fuel gauge, although full instrumentation was optional. I was downright shocked when I got my '79 Newport and saw it had full instrumentation! I think that actually WAS a cost-cutting move. Chrysler used the same dash in copcars, and a lot of Newports, St. Regises, and Gran Furys ended up in police squads where they required the full instrumentation, so it was probably cheaper for Chrysler to just build them all with it, and have the only change be switching from an 85 mph speedo to a 125 mph. Oddly though, the gauges are complimented with idiot lights! There's a low fuel light, a low oil light, and little LED looking things built into the temp and amp gauges that light up if they go too high or low, respectively. My '79 NYer has the same dash. And in typical Chrysler fashion, I've actually seen the idiot light for the temp come on while the gauge is nowhere NEAR hot, and in situations where I know it couldn't be hot, such as the first start of the morning. Go Chrysler! :shades:

I don't know if this is true or not, but I've heard that some automakers program the gauges like temp and oil to read right about in the center of their range, instead of fluctuating like they really would like after the thermostat opens or closes, or how the oil gauge would drop down at idle. The reason? To keep people from panicking when they see those little fluctuations!

Well, maybe they're reasoning that if they have to fake out the driver with gauges like that, might as well just put in an idiot light.

Mr_Shiftright

Analog gauges are GREAT for the human mind because you can see the PROGRESSIVE DETERIORATION of a situation. With an idiot light, all it says is "Ooops, your cylinder head is warped!"

$28 Scion Service: that's a bolt tightening, oil change, filter, rotate tires, replenish all fluids, measure brake pad wear and report, measure tire wear and report, check for leaks, etc.

BMW service: It's free but not on a CPO car, as there is a deductible of I think $50 a pop.

After two full days in the BMW 3 series and 400 or so miles, I think what I want to do is put the BMW engine in the Scion and then I'd be really happy.

(forget it, it won't fit, I already measured.)

british_rover

Oh you can make anything fit if you try hard enough.

explorerx4

even with an automatic, i like a tach. sometimes i find that i can give it a little gas and upshift into overdrive and settle back to the same speed i was before.
my manual shift focus does not have a tach. since i don't know how many revs it is turning, i tend to never push the limit(whatever it is).
from what i understand, aluminum engines are much less forgiving of over heating than than cast iron. i read about it in a truck forum.

wtd44

I sat in one of these at a local "dealership", if the term fits. And indeed, I fit in the Smart. It was quite comfortable, but I didn't drive it. I was put off by several factors, such as warranty service by arrangement elsewhere, and the "importer" being a cyberspace address on the West Coast. And the price (did I get it right?) was something north of $27K! The engine was a three cylinder of middle weight motorcycle displacement. And now I have read in C and D magazine that Mitsu has an 11K model that would possibly compete with the Smart. Isn't the Smart car to be imported and distributed in the foreseeable future by Daimler Chrysler?

andre1969

I just checked my old car encyclopedia, and in 1978 Chevy sold:

Impala wagon 3-seat: 28,518
Impala wagon 2-seat: 40,423
Impala coupe: 33,990
Impala landau coupe: 4,652
Impala sedan: 183,161

Caprice Classic wagon 3-seat: 32,952
Caprice Classic wagon 2-seat: 24,792
Caprice Classic coupe: 37,301
Caprice Landau coupe: 22,771
Caprice Classic sedan: 203,837

Still impressive numbers overall, although down a bit from 1977. And those numbers would drop a bit more for 1979. So it looks like Automotive news or whomever it needs to look it up in their Funk & Wagnalls! Unless the auto editors of Consumer Guide are pulling their sales from an inaccurate source?

john500

The smart car is made by Mercedes (as a Scion is made by Toyota). My understanding is that the safety regulations are not currently sufficient for the US market and some hustler company called Zap or something is making the vehicle US street legal and evidently really marking up the price. I've seen several of the Smart cars in Toronto. $27 K is absurd for that car.

logic1

SMART and Mercedes are both brand names of a company called DaimlerChrysler.

DaimlerChrysler is set to start importing the SMART to the US either late next year or early '08. There is already a website up with information about the car and US dealerships that are signing on.

My understanding is the pricing for base models will be well below $20k

logic1

I was put off by several factors, such as warranty service by arrangement elsewhere, and the "importer" being a cyberspace address on the West Coast. And the price (did I get it right?) was something north of $27K! The engine was a three cylinder of middle weight motorcycle displacement.

These issues will all be addressed once DaimlerChrysler starts importing them through its own system. Much of the extra cost you pay for a SMART in North America now relates to after market pollution and safety control add ons needed to make the car street legal.

Daimler will import a new design SMART that will have US and Canadian regulations met with the basic design.

I have driven the SMART in Italy. I think it is an excellent urban car, but would never recommend it for US interstate (and even max speed limit highway) driving.

Maybe the next generation Smart will address ride and handling at speed better.

jlawrence01

My understanding is the pricing for base models will be well below $20k

My friend just bought one for $22k. After modifications to meet the US regulations, the car was $30k FOB Pittsburgh (not LA as I had previously posted).

I would be very surprised if the base was much less than $22k. It was never meant to be - or marketed as - a budget car.

logic1

In Italy they are marketed as step up from a scooter (which are still very popular there) and maybe a little more cool than the small Fiats and other makes there.

If you are an Italian with money, or want to look like you do, you either buy a real nice motorcycle or a BMW.

SMART will have a hard row to hoe if they try to get big dollars for the cars.

kyfdx

Finally!!... proper spelling and usage of this phrase..

Thanks!!

logic1

Aw shucks.

If truth be told, I had to edit once before getting it right!

Mr_Shiftright

How true. A friend of mine stuffed a Chevy 350 into a 1970 Porsche 911 and I was most amused and found it fun to drive in a scary "can you look death in the eye" kind of way....until.....UNTIL....as I got out of the car, I realized (to my horror), that this car was not a lazy-boy 911T as in "touring", but a former rare 911E, as in early fuel injection lighter weight coupe.

I could have killed him chopping up a car like that.

But yes, some homicidal maniac with talent could put a BMW 3 liter into a Scion, you bet (and WILL someday, god willing).

michaellno

I remember seeing an article somewhere about shops that would substitute the puny 2.0L 4 banger with a VR6 .. I want to say the conversion costs were on the order of $6K.

Would have made for one fast bug!

snakeweasel

When I was in High School I had a few friends that were busy stuffing small block V8's into cars like the Vega.

plekto

Go to www.smart.com and navigate to UK.
8060 Pounds for the standard Smart - or roughly 14K, give or take. The base model is 6775 Pounds. That's just over $10K, since that price includes a chunk of the VAT.

It's a $10-12K car and Zap is doing their typical 100%-200% markup trick. I used to live in Santa Rosa back when they were making electric vehicles and bicycles and so on - about 15 years ago, now. They were greedy bastards.

Take for instance when ni-mh batteries came out. They were selling them and small appliances and so on. They hadn't gotten into bicycles and were out of a tiny hole in the wall shop in Santa Rosa. They charged twice what you could buy them for elsewhere(mail-order(web didn't exist back then))

For $10-$12K, they will be gobbled up. For $30K - you have to be kidding.

lilengineerboy

There haven't been real temperature gauges in cars since the 80s. There is a high, medium, and low for the gauge, its no longer analog even though it appears so. My Contour was like that, our Caravan was like that, Volvos are like that (IPD sells a kit to repair it so it is analog, or with the resistor and diode to keep it functioning the same) so it basically amounts to a telltale.
I agree with Shiftright where its helpful to see how fast things are going down the toilet, but gauges dont convey that info anymore.
Oh and Fuel gauges don't actually provide any information either. They stay on full for the first 100 miles or whatever then drop to half then drop to empty. This was because of complaints about perceived fuel economy (and because people aren't smart enough to actually compute their MPG).

Mr_Shiftright

Well it's interesting. I guess what I've been doing slowly is "building the Scion Toyota should have built". I'll let you know how much extra that ends up costing me.

So far:

rear sway bar (the xA needs it)

durable slip covers (I feel the OEM fabric on the seats may not hold up, but I have no evidence of that other than intuition)

strut brace -- the xA really doesn't need it

durable floor mats --

floor lighting

Planned items:

better wheels and tires -- 15" OEM are a good idea, but the OEM tires are too soft and squishy

Pod gauge pak for A pillar -- I gotta have temp and oil pressure analog gauges. Volts I don't care about so much.

About 35 more HP -- not sure how to do that yet or if I will

Things we can't change:

Higher gearing in 5th

Otherwise, they got 95% of the car really right. Toyota could certainly add a sway bar and better tires for not a lot of $$$, given their purchasing power. (The Wal-Mart factor).

logic1

Yes.

Something in the order of $10k up to around $17k for a highly personalized model seems a lot more realistic.

tsgeisel

If you check on the Inside Line/Edmunds.com site, you'll see a some driving impressions of a 2002 model Smart Car. Even though I don't plan on getting one, I'm eagerly awaiting to hear the impressions of the new one, when it comes out.

snakeweasel

For $10-$12K, they will be gobbled up. For $30K - you have to be kidding.

My guess is that they will be in the $12-15K range.

Mr_Shiftright

I can't imagine a Smart car competing in the $15,000 range....if it were $8,000 yeah, they could sell 20,000 a year.

These aren't "cars", they are miniature cars.

Having spent gazillions of dollars scaring Americans to death about safety, now they are going to tell them that this....roller skate....is perfectly safe to drive on freeways at 75 mph?

This I gotta see...

snakeweasel

Oh and Fuel gauges don't actually provide any information either.

Huh? On both my cars you can see the fuel gauge going down long before 100 miles. Its a very good indicator of how much gas I have. In my daily drive you can see a noticeable movement in my needle after driving it for 15-20 miles after a fill up, and I can usually guestimate within a half gallon or so how much gas it will take from the needle position.

kyfdx

But.. .. it is a Mercedes..

I'm guessing $15K-$18K, unless they sell them at Chysler dealers as Dodge Smarts.

british_rover

Nah I think they will sell them at seperate showrooms at Merc dealers like BMW does MINI.

The base price of the smart needs to start under $14K I think to have a hope of strong sales.

nortsr1

I read previously that the Smart car will be sold thru Roger Penske' United Auto Group.

jlawrence01

The real question is how many BILLIONS will they lose before they pull the plug on the project?

My friend has had his SMART car at a lot of the local shows and the response has been at best, lukewarm.

snakeweasel

We have a guy here at work that has a Smart, he simply loves the car. I, for one, am looking forward to the Smart. I like the ideal that I can drive for a week on $12 worth of gas instead of $35. :shades:

jlawrence01

I like the ideal that I can drive for a week on $12 worth of gas instead of $35

Sure that is great, but what is the price of admission?

My friend is getting 45-50 mpg, I am getting 26-28.

I am not going to spend $20-30k to save $10/wk.

Any fuel savings are going to be offset by the repairs and maintenance costs which will be higher.

My prediction is that they'll be introduced in the US and capture a small niche market - just like the MINI has - and just gradually fade away.

snakeweasel

My friend is getting 45-50 mpg

What is your friend driving?

A good high mileage car is going to get mid 30's in the city, which means the Smart would save me anywhere from $38-58 a month, which is enough to offset a $1,800-2,700 price premium.

I am not going to spend $20-30k to save $10/wk.

It would most likely cost 40-45% less than that putting it in the range of more moderately priced economy cars.

Any fuel savings are going to be offset by the repairs and maintenance costs which will be higher.

Your source on this is?

Mr_Shiftright

Shoppers will take one look at a Smart for $15--$18K, then one look at a Fit, Yaris, Versa, Matrix, etc. and that will be the end of the road for Smart.

I wish someone would hire me to sit in board rooms at ridiculously high salaries and then I'd get to tell them to pull the ripcord before this debacle continues...

kyfdx

Maybe they should hire Malcolm Bricklin? :surprise:

reddroverr

I thought i read it was to be around 15k, but it has been a while. Doesn't seem like much car for that much. I really don't need to park perpendicular very often...or ever.

snakeweasel

Shoppers will take one look at a Smart for $15--$18K, then one look at a Fit, Yaris, Versa, Matrix, etc. and that will be the end of the road for Smart.

I am not so sure that will always be the case. While a smart would be out of the picture for an only car, it almost perfect for a second commuter car. My current daily drive is simply a commuter, rarely is there a second person in it and I can't think of the last time I had more than two people in it. I also carry very little in that car, so a Smart can most likely handle that.

If I don't need the extra seating and cargo area that the Fit, Yaris, Versa, Matrix, etc. has (and I don't) and the price is about the same for the Smart would be a very good choice for a second commuter car since it will get much better gas mileage.