What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

british_rover

Yup the last RWD toyota car was the previous Gen MR2 and it wasn't all that great either.

wale_bate1

Honestly rorr, I think it's more a case of once-bitten, twice shy. Or, as W put it: "fool me once, shame on you, uh me... fool me twice... uh, you can't fool me twice."

The margins for lower-priced enthusiast's cars just aren't there, according to their bean-counters. You and I can disagree with that hypothesis, and likely establish a case, but the buying public will tear it apart with their insistence on "equipment" that has little to do with driving.

Remember Dodge's Razor concept? RWD sporting fun for under $15K? They had the whole thing ready from a parts bin, and on-target for pricing, but by the time their marketing studies were done, the level of "necessary" equipment indicated drove that to just under $20K, which put it in competition with a whole different group of cars.

I definitely agree with your frustrations. And don't even get me started on the new IS... :sick:

rorr

"The margins for lower-priced enthusiast's cars just aren't there, according to their bean-counters."

Well, if Toyota can't build a low-price enthusiast car (according to their bean-counters), then I'll just have to support those manufacturer's who CAN.

damn, it shooooore is a short list though.....

wale_bate1

They'll remeber the Altezza, my friend. Someday, they will make it happen again...

rorr

"Someday, they will make it happen again..."

You know, I'm naturally an optimist.....no, really.

But you're asking for Toyota to eventually come back to the reasonably priced, smallish RWD sedan/coupe/wagon, and I just don't see Toyota moving in that direction. One iota. Their stuff is getting bigger, heavier, and more expensive and they are adding hybrid systems to everything in a sop to the green side of the buying public. With that corporate plan in place, I just don't see any remeberance of the spirit of the original Altezza in the cards.

Now Mazda on the other hand.....I think they've got the stones to go there. Everytime I think of the Kabura concept, it's like I'm the subject of some Pavlovian experiment. Small, light, inexpensive RWD with room for at LEAST a couple of human passengers and enough grunt to be entertaining.

boaz47

just points out the problem. One the smaller manufacturers seem to be willing to fill the niche of the small light weight car. The bean counters have a point when they see you drool over some light weight little RWD sporty puppy and then your ten next door neighbors go out and buy something bigger, heavier and more profitable from their competitors. Just look at the tC some have been touting. The thing weighs close to 3000 pounds, Just over 2800 and it is supposed to replace a sport coupe? Our ZTS is 4 door sedan and it is 200 pounds lighter. For all of that people are buying the tC 3 to one over the small lighter xA. And they are willing to pay more to do so.

We may know more about what we want or like than the average buyer but auto enthusiasts are a bit like good hunting dogs in this society. we are forced to take whatever scraps are left after everyone else has been satisfied. I even read somewhere that by 2008 they may mandate Skid control on all car? I don't know if that is even true but it will add weight and cost to whatever we buy after that date if it is.

wale_bate1

Pshaw, yet again, brother boaz.

"For all of that people are buying the tC 3 to one over the small lighter xA. And they are willing to pay more to do so..."

Styling. Performance aside for a moment, just the styling alone of the tC is so much more mainstream and common denominator for an American public that the sales difference could be lumped on the factor alone.

Personally, I think the xA is a niftier looking package, but with a little drop. The talk here also involves some level of performance, which the xA really only achieves with some help.

Apples to papayas, boaz...

But no :lemon: s

daysailer

Your hunting dog analogy is painfully on-point! The auto enthusiast seeking a lithe, nimble, responsive vehicle has for decades been left with diminishing choices as vehicles in all segments have become bloated, not to mention the dissapearing manual transmission.

If only I could buy a new, '84 Civic with the Fit engine/transmission..................

rorr

"If only I could buy a new, '84 Civic with the Fit engine/transmission.................."

Stop it. I'm recalling how much of a blast I had in my '84 CRX with 'only' 76hp.

Hell, we might as well wish for a late '70s Fiat X1/9 with my Celica's drivetrain......uh, and an electrical system....or ANY working electrical system....

tjw1308

Pretty much dead on... as sad as some of the truths you point out are.

The problem with small enthusiast cars (these days) will always be the niche they fall into. There may even be thousands of rabid buyers for the car, but it's still just a niche in the overall market. Until that changes (which it sadly won't), there will always be more choice in the "family sedan" segment.

Personally, I don't want Vehicle Skid Control to "help" my driving. Some people like that feature though, and it's a way for manufacturers to make more $$$. It also lets more people drive with a false sense of invulnerability (the same as 4WD in the snow). It's a good way to ask for more $$$ I guess, that is: being able to drive like an (insert insult here) and have the VSC bail you out...

But that's why we won't see a revivial of the CRX :P: $$$... But can you really blame them?

Why sell 10 when you can sell 2 for more $$$? To make people like us happy? I bet their shareholders would appreciate that too

And if they built profitability into the little ones, all of a sudden, they'd be priced right with the big ones. The niche would grow smaller... less $$$ for them... less fun cars for us... It's just really a shame.

T

boaz47

But what are the kids doing with the few CRXs they get their hands on? Popping in a Prelude or Type R motor into them. Now think of a CRX with 240HP or maybe 300? One of the young drivers working for me is doing just that. He even had a tC on order but the 3000Lbs and waiting list did nothing for him. He found a clean CRX and is turning it into a modern day hot rod.

What real choice do we have? If you want a small light car it has to be designed for someone in their teens and the interior is orange and has SVT or SI or Type S on it. And now you can't even get a SVT Focus. Sub compacts today don't seem to be the answer to the small light car some have been praying for. One lone exception in the Cooper S.

wale_bate1

I like orange...

boaz47

I should have known there was someone that did.

wale_bate1

explorerx4

performance-wise an svt doesn't get you much if anything over a 2.3 zts. svt looks/trim are better. 2 door might be a subcompact.

lilengineerboy

Hell, we might as well wish for a late '70s Fiat X1/9 with my Celica's drivetrain......uh, and an electrical system....or ANY working electrical system....
Someone did that, albut at a higher price point.
Lotus Elise
Further, I think the comments about the nitch manufacturers filling in the gaps are right on. Smaller companies may be better positioned to turn profit on fewer cars in smaller markets. The mini might be a case in point. They really don't sell that many but BMW has the highest profit margin of any company right now.
A company like Toyota makes a good solution for the majority of the motoring public, say some where in the 80% range...is it worth them doing the development and effort to get the last 15 or 20%? Is that someone else's nitch?

lilengineerboy

Personally, I don't want Vehicle Skid Control to "help" my driving. Some people like that feature though, and it's a way for manufacturers to make more $$$. It also lets more people drive with a false sense of invulnerability (the same as 4WD in the snow). It's a good way to ask for more $$$ I guess, that is: being able to drive like an (insert insult here) and have the VSC bail you out...
While I am sure you are an excellent driver and never compromise driving safety by driving while distracted with a radio, map, phone, or any other device, and would never eat while driving, and are definitely positively always sure to have at least 2 seconds of following distance on the highway and leave plenty or room in bad weather, and would never drive in anger of the guy that just cut you off...
... the majority of drivers out there do talk on the phone and eat and futz with the radio and tailgate, etc. Given that they are doing all that, I would like to have a chance in hell of them not slamming into me, so any electrical gismo that will help that possibility, I am all for it. Especially given the total lack of training with respect to vehicle control most drivers are given. They aren't even required to have a basic understanding of physics.
My point is that while I am sure you are an excellent driver, most people are idiots and need all the help they can get.

plekto

Who makes an under $20K car with RWD that's small? Anyone? I do remmber BMW having their 318Tii and Mercedes having their C230K coupe for about 25K, and of course, you can easily haggle to 25K on a RX-8, but is there anything under 20K?

iluvmysephia1

the 2007 Suzuki SX4 is a blazing bargain that is also a rig that enhances safety in driving. Think of it as a small Volvo built in Japan for the U.S. and European market. Don't forget the Italian Fiat influence. Did someone mention Fiat X 1/9? Are ya catching my drift?

Would y'all be afraid to buy an SX in it's first production year? I wouldn't. That 7 year and 100,000 mile Warranty would cover the first run errors sufficiently.

You just can't get all of those safety features and new world order drivetrain and great looks and features the SX4 has for under $15,000.

Meanwhile, I'm gonna tool around in my 2001 Kia Sportage 4x4 for obvious reasons.

daysailer

in the same sentence? You apparently have never driven an X1/9!

bumpy

and it ain't a subcompact. Too wide, too tall.

bumpy

Not what you were looking for, but the smart fortwo fits the bill (minus the markup and federalization costs on the current model).

boaz47

Makes you wonder if he has ever driven a Fiat? While I like Fiat and most of the other Italian makes I know full well that you have to have two cars if one is a Fiat. While they may be a step up in dependability over a Kia I am not sure that they are a good example for Suzuki to follow. However like I pointed out earlier, we can be discussing the merits of a real sub compact, lightweight, sporty vehicle and somehow we were doomed to hear about a small SUV. Maybe it is the Sport in Sport Utility? But it is hardly a feather weight.

rorr

"Don't forget the Italian Fiat influence."

There is very little GOOD in a Fiat influence......

snakeweasel

Think of it as a small Volvo

I tried but I couldn't do it with a straight face.

Would y'all be afraid to buy an SX in it's first production year? I wouldn't. That 7 year and 100,000 mile Warranty would cover the first run errors sufficiently.

Tell me does that 7 year 100K mile warranty reimburse me for the hassle of taking the car in for warranty work? No.

You just can't get all of those safety features and new world order drivetrain and great looks and features the SX4 has for under $15,000.

I can get all the safety features and more room and better gas mileage for less. Just won't get that unneeded. AWD.

rorr

BTW iluv - I've been meaning to ask:

What happened with your luv affair over the Scion tC? A month ago you were all over the tC board singing IT'S praises. Now the Suzuki?

snakeweasel

I guess Suzuki pays more

rorr

Oh, I dunno. Iluv strikes me as having HONEST rabid yet fickle enthusiasm.....

nortsr1

He still hasn't told us about his trade-in value of his KIA that he says is worth $4900.00 and now he has decided to "tool around a while longer in his "KIA". We will await his next "perfect vehicle for $15000.00.

brightness04

Ford Mustang. It's pretty small on the inside (no bigger than 318ti or C230k)

w9cw

I've owned FIATs here in the USA, as well as in Europe (current models). I've never owned a Kia, but have driven and rented several of the current models. From my short experience with the current Kia products, I would have to say that they are a step up from any FIAT I've owned old or new, not in terms of driving experience mind you, but in terms of build-quality, potential reliability comparisons, and the overall experience.

boaz47

I have had a Fiat or two myself. I have driven one or two Kias as well. While I don't trust my experience with Fiat as being objective, they were always a blast to drive when they were running. However even if we could get a Fiat over here I doubt if it would stay on the bottom of JD powers dependability list as long as Kia has. The irony of that is that the owner of Kia, Hyundai has moved up considerably over the years. They must just allow Kia to build their seconds. But even assuming you are correct equating Suzuki with Fiat is hardly inspiring from a dependability standpoint. But at least they are in the same ball park as Kia. I still believe it is a slam against Suzuki however. It also would seem to be something of a dissing of subjects of sub compacts, and small light cars to interject a SUV no matter who it was made by.

nippononly

Boo...hiss....it may be a RWD car under $20K, but it is an example of old-school design: STILL has a live rear to save money, heavy, big on the outside and drives like a big car yet has small-car space inside.

For sheer hp per $$, you can't argue with the Mustang, which is why it has always sold so well (that and its low low starter price). That's great for straight-line racers, and that's about it. It is far from a subtle ride. It is the opposite of all the things that make modern subcompacts so good at what they do and so pleasing to the driver in most cases.

boaz47

True, but what choices do performance enthusiasts have? Most of the RWD sporty cars are gone. At least ones that the average driver could afford. And the Mustang is a lot easier to make into a cornering machine than a normal sub compact is into a hot rod. Much like Hondas you can get off the shelf parts for the Mustang just about every where, including 7/11. Sub compact in most American's eyes doesn't equate to performance or sporty. With the avowed exception of Mini Cooper. And the Mini is FWD. Plus how many sub compacts are cutting edge technology wise? Maybe compared to the suspension of a Mustang but not to much else. Most of the R&D money seems to go to high end models of the street cruiser varity. Even the Miata is getting a bit long in the tooth and is developing a rather vanilla reputation. Even if it has aquired the label"chick" car.

wale_bate1

Solstice.

daysailer

close to 3klbm

wale_bate1

Nolo contendre. Then again, aren't they all?

BTW, it never achieved its original target price or specs.

boaz47

and the Sky are indeed interesting. A bit heavy and a bit sluggish with the 2.0 but should be OK with the 2.4. The Cross fire also comes to mind and it can be had with a bit more punch as well. I just feel the Crossfire is a bit on the high end for an entrance fee.

daysailer

that is force fed to 260hp. The 2.3 is 177hp, IIRC.

Of the Solstice, R&T said ".....Lithe and nimble, terms that somehow don't apply to the Solstice."

To me lithe and nimble DEFINE an enthusiasts vehicle!

rorr

"Nolo contendre. Then again, aren't they all?"

Yep.

Even my current favorite Mazdaspeed3 is too porcine at 3150lbs.

Which (and this reflects poorly on me) I was too willing to overlook and excuse as 'not too bad'. Until I looked up my hoary old '93 Mustang 5.0 specs; a curb weight of 2834 lbs.

Yes, that's right: the current Mazdaspeed3 is a FULL 300 lbs. HEAVIER than an early 90's V8 Mustang.

This is progress?

british_rover

No airbags on the V8 mustang of that era and very little sound deading material.

rorr

Actually, my Mustang DID have a driver's side airbag (this was after the era of the mouse-motor passive seatbelts).

From the specs I've seen, it doesn't appear as though the Speed3 has much in the way of sound deadening either.....

I think the biggest difference is in structural rigidity; which was apparently a foreign concept with Ford in those days.

lilengineerboy

I think I am going to withold judgement until I get to autocross the thing in the spring. Undercutting the Miata's pricing goes a long way towards forgiveness of a few sins for me.

wale_bate1

...is in the eye of the beholder?

On the one hand, we all seem to agree that they're heavier than we'd like. OTOH, they (and this has strong bearing on the subcompacts) are a good deal more sophisticated than what we have left behind.

The new subs are all heavier than we recall such cars as being. They are also much quieter, stronger and safer, and most have better performance. They also seem to come with a fair deal more gizmachie (aka: "amenitites") than their sires.

What price progress then?

nippononly

that's awfully philomosophical! :-)

We all have to accept the fact that the days of very basic cars are falling further and further behind us. As they do, fuel economy and road feel go with them. Sure, we may increase handling limits and speed and computer precision of all things related to engine management, but we do so at the expense of the raw driving experience.

This applies to subcompacts no more or less than it does to other classes of car. The thought of the onrush of the day when transportation appliances have finally crushed the life out of the common car depresses me.

kyfdx

That's it..

daysailer

To both of you!

snakeweasel

Solstice.

Way to small.

wale_bate1

"Way to small..."

For what?

wale_bate1

Speaking personally: "We have met the enemy, and he is us..."