What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

boaz47

At last we all come to the same point in the road. Vehicles are moving away from the enthusiasts ideals and towards something closer to transportation pods. Now that could be good or bad depending on what you personally think of driving. When I used to spend and hour and a half or even two hours on the freeway going to and from LA I didn't care about much of anything other than getting there and back in the most comfortable, economic and safe way I could. Transportation pods or air tubes wouldn't have made much of a difference.

Nippon you have always had a softer view of this than I have and seem to be willing to grasp at whatever is left of what we once called driving experience. I accept it as inevitable more as a cynic and at times am ready to toss in the towel and go with the majority. I am not sure the future of Sub Compacts isn't 3000 pound cars with CVT, ABS, five cup holders, taller than it is long, and with a design look as if a kid with an etch a sketch drew them. Even here they seem more cars to be put up with as all one needs rather than cars we dreamed of owning when we were first learning to drive. what could be wrong with todays sub compacts? They don't inspire any passion of ownership. Resignation and even some pride, yes, but no passion.

kyfdx

If I can find a car that loses two pounds per year, I can break even over the long term... :surprise:

snakeweasel

To sit inside. In all honesty I couldn't even close the door.

tsgeisel

Read the long term log entries on Edmunds/Inside Line. The Solstice gets high marks for its looks, but low marks for everyday functionality.

It's also a 2-seater, so "way too small" can apply to any number of things - from grocery shopping to a weekend away, depending on how you pack.

british_rover

Just pick any Italian car made in the 80's or 70's and leave it in the Northeast.

rorr

"Resignation and even some pride, yes, but no passion."

Oh, I dunno. I mean, look at ilumvysephia: he's proof positive that one can have passion even with the most pedestrian of transportation pods.

The only downside is the amount of meds I'd need to get his level of passion....

british_rover

Yeah the trunk on the Solstice is non-existant.

kyfdx

LOL...

british_rover

Whats the LOL for what word did I butcher?

wale_bate1

"Read the long term log entries on Edmunds/Inside Line. The Solstice gets high marks for its looks, but low marks for everyday functionality..."

Remember in the first "Pirates" when Johnny Depp gets Orlando Bloom at sword-point and Orlando says, "you cheated", and Johnny says, "pirate"?

I read the above and say, "sportscar".

I say it's a tad too big for what it is. A tad.

wale_bate1

You know, I used that quote in context at a dinner party the other night, in a group of my contemporaries, and not a one of them knew the source. Damned depressing.

Ahhh weight gain. I hear fresh spinach can take care of that. Maybe permanently... :surprise:

boaz47

That was funny. It is that look someone gets when they see a cool car while looking out the window of a down town restaurant of an add in a magazine. Sub Compacts, at least today's sub compacts just don't do that. As far as driving experience? Well do you ever close your eyes and picture yourself on a winding mountain or canyon road in a sub compact running with a few friends in sports coupes or even sports sedans? Can you see yourself talking about the driving experience of such a road at the coffee shop afterwards? Can you see yourself out with several friends in the parking lot looking at what they have done in tires, exhaust, intake or suspension? Maybe on a Mini but not much else smaller than a RSX, Mazda3 or the like.

british_rover

MINIs do do it

MINI Cooper Tail of the Dragon

I had plans to go to this in 2004 but ended up moving to CT and changing jobs right in the middle of it.

I just couldn't drive all the way to North Carolina from CT for just a weekend.

rorr

"Can you see yourself out with several friends in the parking lot looking at what they have done in tires, exhaust, intake or suspension?"

On a subcompact? Oh, absolutely YES!

Of course, I was 16 at the time.....

boaz47

You maybe still able to do that but with what is being offered in todays Sub Compacts by the time you got to the coffee shop everyone else would have left.

plekto

It looks like maybe a stripped down Miata is about the only RWD car out there under 20K(~19K for a base special value model).

As for weight - my 67 Mercedes is the size of the previous generation Camry, has no plastic anywhere except maybe the tail lights and some buttons and knobs, is heavy gauge metal, wood, leather, double-thick glass...

First made in 1959. 3000lbs. Soething is seriously wrong if almost 50 years later cars are more bloated and made out of flimsier meterials.

brightness04

And it (67 Mercedes) offers precious little crash protection compared to modern cars. Plastic is at a major reason why cars are safer: composite bumper that can aborb collisions, airbags, and interior panels that do not splinter, just to name a few. Mercedes was actually at the forefront of making use of plastic back in the 70's and 80's: they just gave it fancy name . . . MercedesTech :-) what we normally call pleather.

iluvmysephia1

I'm no closer to trading in the '01 Kia Sportage 4x4 on a 2007 Suzuki SX4, but, and it's an interesting butt, I am taking a hankering to the Red color Suzuki is laying down on it's new crossover. Before this I was all but certain I was going to go with Techno Blue Metallic(which works quite well with the SX4). Oh, it is so much fun to gaze and gander upon today's subcompacts.

They really are the only cars(actually the 2007 Suzuki SX4 is technically a compact)worth intently learning about. The Mini is an awesome car but it has so many competitors that it starts paling in it's greatness when you sit it next to a 2006 Scion xA...even. See what I mean?

The xA retails for only $13,330 and does its job very well.

But it can't go out of 2WD(FWD)and in to AWD-Auto and AWD-Lock for true 4WD action when scaling Arizona peaks. Got to keep the big picture in view, gentlemen.

daysailer

In the midst of subcompact discussions, we repeatedly find these random posts about SUVs.

perhaps a reboot?................

bumpy

Well do you ever close your eyes and picture yourself on a winding mountain or canyon road in a sub compact running with a few friends in sports coupes or even sports sedans?

There are no mountains or canyons anywhere close to here, but otherwise that's exactly what the original SE-R was built for. Sadly, the only thing even close to that sold here today is the Mini Cooper S. (Europeans have a few dozen twisty-optimized subs to choose from.)

boaz47

I agree. SE-R, SI, Mazdaspeed. But once again they are not sub compacts. They also have a few more ponies than the traditional sub compact.

I realize that as a commuter a Sub Compact would work just fine. It is just that we don't dream about commuting. We dream of the days we will stop commuting.

daysailer

the closest thing to an enthusiast's "subcompact" today. But at 2700lbm, both its "Mini" and "subcompact" monikers are subject to question. The Mini is 500lbm heavier than a Datsun 510, which was considered a compact, not subcompact (they had the 1200 for that category).

boaz47

Can you believe it? We are in agreement once again.

Mr_Shiftright

A subcompact, if the right one, can be reasonably amusing when you set it up right (that is, the mods you make are not visible). True it is not quite the YEE----HAW! of my old Porsche blasting hydrocarbons out of all 8 cylinders, but it is reasonably amusing to drive. Certainly better than a Camry.

It's "okay". It's better than you think, but less than what you'd wish for. But stuffing it full of junk and still getting 36 mpg at 80 mph, I'm happy. I mean, a car can't be all things, no car is, after all.

It certainly handles and brakes better than anything from the 60s, that's for sure.

daysailer

Stranger things have happened..........

daysailer

The Mini evokes an ambivalence in me that will probably keep me from owning one. That interior design for 20-somethings and its central instrument binacle would be a struggle to live with.....I don't wish to spend $20K to struggle. I've noted that R&T's owner survey reported ambivalence among owners as well, tho not necessarily for the same reasons. The fact that a friend with a Mini has recently installed the THIRD set of tires in 45000 miles also gives me pause.

A more practical and economic choice for me would be the Fit, if less exciting.

fintail

What is "MercedesTech"? Are you referring to MB-Tex, the MB interior material that dates to the early 60s (my fintail has it) that is possibly the most durable interior material used in any car ever?

I'd rather crash in some of these older cars than some much newer ones. MB interiors of the period were designed not to splinter, these cars had the first crumple zones and safety cells ever, the steering and knobs were designed to break away, etc.

rorr

"A more practical and economic choice would be the Fit, if less exciting."

Given the huge aftermarket for Hondas (particularly the Civic), has there been much noise about hopup parts for the Fit?

boaz47

True again. But then we have a lot of choices in this generation of vehicles that do handle better than a sports car from the 60s. I was reminded of that this weekend. While coming down the mountain taking my mother in law back home to the flat lands. There must have been a sports car show up in Lake Arrowhead because as I was coming down the hill there were some old Bathtub porsches, and XK-E or two a few Healey 3000s and one or two bug eye Sprites. Having had a Sprite in the early 60s I was very interested in the little Sprite in front of us as I pulled onto the main road leading down the mountain. The Sprite had a roll bar and two small wind screens. It was also painted with a racing stripe and numbers on the door. I wanted to get a good look at the car but every time the road opened up he would punch it and take off. I couldn't very well punch it to try and keep up because of the noise that would come from my car generated by both my wife and mother in law. However I have just put new super soft low profile tires on the ZTS and by distracting the two females I could push a bit harder in the turns than I would normally without their audio assistance. I noticed his little car would hop a bit more in the turns than I did and he had more trouble holding a smooth line in the turns. Catching him in the turns turned out to be a piece of cake.

The realization that my Family sedan was sportier in performance than a car I considered on of my favorite sports car was a bit depressing. My old two liter Fiat might have been faster even on a mountain road but I didn't remember my sprite fighting so hard to keep up in the corners. Time marches on however and while sub compacts today are better than they once were they are still pretty low on the food chain of driving performance, in general. Once again they will make excellent econo boxes but only the Mini so far gives us any Hint of sportyness. At least from a dreaming stand point.

daysailer

It really is amazing how much all those cupholders in modern cars weigh. A '66 MGB with all iron engine and nary a piece of plastic in sight was but 1900lbm while a new Miata is over 2500lbm!

daysailer

A Sprite should hop a LOT more!! with its short wheelbase and very short rear leaf springs, it had loads of bump steer - should be no match for most any modern car on undulating pavement, but a lot of fun.

boaz47

Maybe true, but watching it move in the lane was a splash of cold water in my face. It also reminded me of the shock travel on the old mini cooper. With racing blue streaks on the car the old Mini only had maybe 4 inches between the tire and top of the wheel well. I don't think the the suspension had more than 3 inches of travel. You would be able to feel a leaf if you ran over it. I now remember why I hated rain groves.

lilengineerboy

As far as the "audio assistance," I take the time to explain to passengers that all tires enjoy singing, and a such, tend to sing when they are at their happiest. Of course, having actual performance tires instead of the fuel efficient highway tires on my commuter vehicle would help as well.

boaz47

Well, you have to get a good deal on performance tires. I go through two sets a year. But when they are new they sure are nice.

andre1969

The Mini is 500lbm heavier than a Datsun 510, which was considered a compact, not subcompact (they had the 1200 for that category).

Back when the 510 was out, a compact car was something like a Dodge Dart, Plymouth Valiant, Chevy Nova, Ford Maverick, Granada, or Fairmont, or an AMC Hornet. Compared to those cars, the difference between a 1200 or a 510 was pretty inconsequential. It's like saying a jack russell is bigger than a chihuahua and then trotting out a rottweiler! :P

boaz47

Yes, but we all can see the size difference. The line has blurred in this forum. More like a wired hair terrier and a Jack Russell. We can still trot out a Rott if we like, AKA Navigator but we still have a reference for a Sub Compact and a Compact. It looks like the new croup of Sub Compacts are compact size with sub compact size engines.

lilengineerboy

Whoa, 2 sets? What kind of car is that on, or how many miles do you drive a year?
My Dunlops went about 45k before being dust, which given their peformance and how they were driven was fine. The MXV4s (with ~50k)on the other car are gong to be replaced with Kuhmo AGXs ($120/tire for the Michies vs ~$40/tire for the Kuhmos).

boaz47

It has been a season or two since I switched. But I used to put Falken AZENIS RT-615 225x40x17 on both my PT and my ZTS. I do 20 K a year on one or the other. The summer heat and mountain road eats up a performance tire on either car at about 10k miles. I have switched to a bit more mileage performance all season Winston or Nexas in a 50 series on 16 inch rims for a softer ride and about 20K a year.

andre1969

The line has blurred in this forum.

I think to a degree there's always going to be some blur at the extremes of various size classes. And to a degree, there has always been some blur, exept maybe back in the time when there were "standard sized cars" and "everything else". But even then, something like a 1957 Rambler doesn't look much smaller inside to me than a '57 Chevy or Ford, although it was called a compact.

boaz47

Well, I was more compact back then as well but it was easy to get three of us in the back and three in the front of a 57 Chevy or Ford with a bench seat. A 57 Rambler was another story. But the Studabaker. Lark seemed about the same room wise as a Nova or Chevy II. Still, todays sub compact isn't much different from a Compact except you get fewer ponies, the Mini can get a few more as well. In most cases we give up some shoulder room as well. It is like getting a compact with the an engine option of less than the base engine.

daysailer

So, what does one do? The absurdity of an individual using a 3000+lbm machine for daily transportation boggles the mind. Granted, to do the same with a 2500lbm machine is not rational either, only a bit less absurd. At least a return to sub ton machines would be no worse than we were once able to do.

For decades my daily commute has ranged from 15-30 miles with no opportunity to carpool or use public transportation - the lack of rational options is maddening! (and my Wife has threatened to divorce me if I consider another bike)

wale_bate1

Would work for me; I've always wanted a crotch-rocket anyway. Of course, I'd have to up my insurance. Of course, I just need to talk the Mrs. into it. Of course that hasn't happened in the 18yrs we've been married...

wale_bate1

Hey! Did you edit?

Wives. They do little but complain about us, and then when we come up with a viable solution that might accidentally provide them with stress reduction and an insurance check, what's the response?

Sheesh...

snakeweasel

Forget that, how about this?



Thats a 355 HP bike there, and if thats still not enough you can get 502 HP. :shades:

wale_bate1

No thanks.

Crotch rockets only for me. Never was a hog-style fan m'self...

stickguy

Motor Trend had a piece in the latest issue on a bunch of hot small cars (that of course we don't get in the US). I think it was a sidebar to the comparo of the speed3 and WRX.

One was the euro Focus, that looked sweet. My favorite though was an Opel mini-minivan type deal, with a 225hp engine. That would get me to trade in the Odyssey (but don't tell my wife).

Actually, even though it isn't a subcompact (maybe in the world of minivans it is), but I think that Mazda would have a hit if they made a speed version of the 5. Just use the same drivetrain as the speed 3, some suspension/brake tweaks, and viola, a hot rod people mover.

snakeweasel

They are not Hogs, they are Boss Hoss bikes, a small manufacturer in (I believe) Tennessee. You have your choice of engines, either a 350 CID small block V8 or a 502 CID large Bock V8 (Thats 5.7 and 8.2 liters respectively for those of you who are bad at math).

Now thats power.

jtabasz

The sprite doesn't go that fast, it jsut seems like it is, from that close to the ground.

wale_bate1

Sorry, I should've been more general: I don't care for cruisers, personally.

Anything over 750cc seems a waste to me. I could do nicely with a 500...

boaz47

Oh I remember. Everything was geared to 110 MPH. My sprite was lucky to hit the 100 mark. The TR-4 ran out of air at 110, the Fiat 124 might have hit 115 but they all felt like they were flying. My favorite was the TR-3. You could set a coke down at the light on the ground and pick it up just as the light changed.