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On the forrester even witht he seat all the way back and all the way down I still dont' really have enough leg room.
I'm shocked that you have the nerve to criticize anyone's style preferences when you believe the SX4 is some sort of beauty contest winner. Simply amazing!
I'm not saying the SX4 is ugly, and I'm not saying a Subie Forester is attractive, but let's face it, neither will be taught in design school.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
....and worth every penny.
It seems easier to make a small car attractive, because you have that pupply like cuteness working for you.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Cuts right to the heart of this discussion! There seems to be the natural assumption that everyone would rather have a bigger car -- I don't.
There's more driver room in today's subcompacts than many large cars in the "long hood, short rear-deck" '70s (i.e. Monte Carlo, Cutlass, etc.).
I wanted small and frugal (drive 70K miles/year) and will buy a B-class vehicle next time, as well.
To be fair, aside from the MINI none of the subs' designs really knocks anybody out either apparently. I think the xA is kinda different (eccentric) enough to be interesting but not exactly attractive. I don't know why the sbus can't be more bold, like the Figaro was---even a smaller Hyundai Tiburon would be nicer to look at than these little loaves of bread they are selling.
It's been awhile since I've sat in a Pacer, but I remember them actually being pretty roomy up front. Kinda like a midsized front seat mated to a subcompact back seat.
Please oh please anything but like this.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
As the owner of one of those long hood, short deck 70's cars, a 1976 LeMans, I'd have to disagree with you there. I'm 6'3", and the thing fits me better than most cars built today, even so-called full-sized cars. I'd say the only thing I don't like about the driving position is that the windshield is a bit close. If I have the wheelt tilted up enough and "palm" the steering wheel instead of gripping it, I can hit my fingers on the windshield.
Now where it really gives up interior room is the back seat. It's wide, actually has decent headroom for such a low-slung car, but legroom, especially once I get the power front seat to where I like it, is probably worse than many subcompacts.
Its low profile also forces it to give up some trunk space. I think it has about 15 cubic feet of trunk space, which isn't that generous for something that's 208" long.
I think the biggest problem I have with most of today's subcompacts is legroom, or lack of it. Headroom in most of them is great, but the lack of legroom, which forces my knees to a higher level, coupled with a steering wheel that won't tilt up high enough, makes for an inhospitable driving position. Cars today also tend to have wheel wells, dashboards, center consoles, etc which intrude into the passenger cabin more than back in the day.
I can understand the appeal of a smaller car though, for the right person and in the right lifestyle/circumstances.
Cuts right to the heart of this discussion! There seems to be the natural assumption that everyone would rather have a bigger car -- I don't.
I agree! Why the pervasive assumption that everyone considers bigger to be better! I don't buy vehicles by the pound! I would sooner pay a premium for smaller/lighter than for bigger heavier. Everyone would not "really rather have a Buick"!
I consider bigger to be better, but only to a point. That point being where it's big enough to be comfortable for me. As a general rule small cars ARE more space-efficient than bigger ones, but all the space efficiency in the world isn't worth a damn to me if I don't fit comfortably!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
If you look at the Beetle, the PT, or even the Mini, they are virtually unchanged since the day they came out.
It will be curious to see what the next Mustang will look like.
Aside from that most subcompacts are basically variations of basic boxes on 4 wheels with maximum room inside, that's all they have going for them, unless you look at cars like the Mini, the Smart Car, or the New Beetle for that matter, as they have a little bit of style to them.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Can't speak for every model, but I've been in a number of very large 2-ton cars that have my knees crushed against the dash with the steering wheel, dash and windshield too close.
One of the worst was a former boss's Chrysler Cordoba. Getting inside was excruciating, yet I pop right in and out of my Aveo effortlessly and I'm 6'4" and 250#.
Wasn't comfortable in the front seat of a last-generation Lincoln Town Car either -- not enough leg room. And don't get me started on the 90's era S-10 Blazers with that sit-on-the-floor with legs-straight-out-cuz-the-floor-is-too-damn-high driving position -- horrible!!!
Yeah, to be fair, not all of those mammoth 2-ton (or more) cars were built the same. One of my friends has a 1978 Mark V, and it's not especially roomy inside given its huge external dimensions. I think the legroom's actually okay, but you sit really low to the floor, and headroom's not all that great. And Ford products back then seemed to have a dashboard that cut real low, and while it didn't actually come into contact, just seemed too close to my shins for comfort.
I've been in both generations of Cordoba, and they're really not that huge inside either. I think the 80-83 is a bit more comfy than the 75-79, partly because the seat feels a bit higher up, feels like it goes back a bit further, and it uses a modified dashboard from the 1979-81 fullsizers which slopes away, but I think My LeMans is better than both.
And yeah, entry/exit isn't so great on those older cars, and the older I get, the more I notice it! Oddly though, I took my 82 year old Grandma to the doctor once in my '76 LeMans, and she remarked about how easy it was to get into and out of! One thing that my LeMans might have going for it though is the power seat. I put it all the way back and raise it up kinda high, which negates that low seating position that made many of those older cars irritating to get into and out of.
Funny you'd mention the Town Car...I'm not really all that impressed with them either. It seems like ever since the Ford "Panther" body went aero (~1990 for the Town Car, 1992 for the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis) they just didn't feel as roomy inside to me. And yeah, those S-10 Blazers were pretty cramped inside if you were tall/big-framed. They were narrow inside as well, with small-ish seats, not a lot of footwell room, etc.
One area that they've definitely improved cars is the ease of entry and exit. A month or so ago I tried to get into the back seat of a 70's Dodge Coronet sedan. Now it was pretty roomy once I was inside, but you had to practically be a contortionist to get into it! I was also recently in a 1974 New Yorker 4-door. This sucker felt HUGE inside to me, but entry/exit wasn't all that easy. In contrast, I don't think my uncle's '03 Corolla is very comfortable to drive, but it's fairly easy to get into and out of. And while the driving position sucks, IMO, the front passenger seat and even the back seat aren't bad.
The secondary problem sub compacts have is that same buying public that will buy 400,000 Camries might be willing to get a smaller car. But only if they can have it for a lot less money. There is almost no way to get the image of a small car is less car out of our collective cultural mind. I big house is always worth more than a small house. A big boat is always worth more than a small boat. The idea of super sizing works because it is perceived getting a better deal. 50 percent more for only 10 percent more money sounds pretty good to most people. To the enthusiast that might be frustrating but to the marketers it makes perfect sense.
So I'm thinking, MazdaSpeed3, new VW GTI, new Civic Si.
All great, fast "little" cars.
And you know what---they're TWICE the price of the xA.
Would I pay $12,500 extra dollars for 9 inches more room and 2 or 3 seconds off 0-60?
Not sure...makes me what to just stop screwing around and buy a Mustang GT and be done with it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
i'll bet i could do a smoke show with my zts that could show up on the weather channel. oops, sorry, flashback to my younger days in the mustang.
the 'st' models have the old svt suspension. my '04 zts only has the rear anti roll bar.
You all assumed that I meant a Buick. Compared to an Aveo, a Civic is a huge monster. 40mpg highway, tons better built, and I can guarantee less problems even at 3-4 years old than the Aveo will have new.
Timeless design. For less.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Other than that though I like it. One area I give it bonus points for is the front, where it looks like they got the proportioning down right for the grille and the headlights. Often, cars end up with headlights that are too big and a grille that's too small and it gives them kind of a :surprise: type of look.
1990-1996 300ZX, 196x-1998 911
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Agreed, how about this one?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I don't mind seeing all his posts - they are entertaining - but they really should be transferred to the Suzuki SX4 forum.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I don't see it that way, the car does offer some value at its price. Is it a great value? That depends on what you are looking for. Will Suzuki sell heaps, loads and globs of them? No, but I don't think they will be sold at basement bargain prices either.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
they are, after all, still related to GM.
There are loads of decent cars out there that get firesaled year after year. Will it be the bargain bin for the SX4? Well, that's going to depend alot on how you define big incentives. you probably won't see $10k off on a cheap little car like you do on the big SUVs, but that's not exactly a fair comparison. If I had to make a wager, I'd say we'll see $11,500, if not less, by the end of next summer. That's about 25% off.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I would take that wager, they will not go that low. They may (mind you may) hit the $12,500 mark with incentives. Even then it would be $1900 under invoice. Realistically I would say they would be in the $13's at their lowest.
However if they do hit $11,500 or less I might snap one up. But I would suspect that if prices drop that low (or even drop to $12,500) the car will be discontinued.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Besides, I'm talking about the end of the summer, when several manufacturers are throwing around the big incentives money. Just because a car sells cheap at that time of the year, doesn't mean it was a failure all year round.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Because those cars with larger discounts have a larger profit margin than the SX4 has. The profit margin on the SX4 is razor thin.
Besides, I'm talking about the end of the summer, when several manufacturers are throwing around the big incentives money.
Again the margins are not there.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
As for SX4 pricing taking any drops any time, I wouldn't expect SX4 pricing to drop much at all for months. Some manufacturer rebates might come by the spring of '07 in the $500-$1,000 range. I think the car is a great deal at invoice.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
No its not, the profit margin on many SUV's and pickups are much greater than for small cars like the SX4. Compare invoice verses sticker on a dodge Ram verses the SX4. The Dodge Roms invoice is about 88% of the sticker price while for the SX4 the invoice is 96% of the sticker price.
That means that if you sell a Dodge Ram at invoice you sold it at a 12% discount, but a SX4 at invoice is only a 4% discount.
Or look at it this way in order to sell the Ram at 75% of sticker I would have to make the price 85% of the invoice. To do the same with the SX4 I would have to sell at 78% of invoice. Which is more likely to happen?
On these small cars there just isn't a whole lot of fat to cut, even if you look at it percentage wise.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D