What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

ateixeira

I'll bring a camera to the Philly show if you're going again.

-juice

hwyhobo

the chair-like seating position of the xA dictates that the higher adjustment would be necessary for a long-legged person

Operating a vehicle could be affected as well. Things like that, and the problems resulting from a short distance from the pedals to the wheel, could be easily saved by a sufficient telescoping adjustment on the steering column. More and more manufacturers are waking up to it. VW offers it now on every passenger model sold in the US. Ford offers it on Focus, but it's a short adjustment. Let's hope we start seeing it on most subcompacts. Proper and comfortable driving position would go a long way in making them more popular. Then the manufacturers will have to educate the dealers that such options exist. In recent past almost none of the salespeople I talked to heard of telescoping steering wheels on vehicles they were selling - most of them were offering it. One even insisted that it was not available. After I showed him the brochure that listed it, he was surprised.

jlawrence01

I agree though, that a lot of it can simply be what you're used to

When I need to make an out of town trip, I rent a Toyota Corolla from Hertz LE. After driving a Corolla for a few days, I can now get in normal style. But it takes a lot of getting used to.

Mr_Shiftright

I'd rather have a car with a tight entry for steering wheel clearance than my nemesis, which is a car with a long drop down to the seat AND a low roof line...a deadly combination (e.g. Porsche 928--the skull fracture car).

To prove this point, pound your fist on your knee and then hit yourself in the side of the head. Repeat until you believe me.

boaz47

When I bought the ZTS for my wife we had been looking at Miatas. My son is 6'2 and I am 5'9. we know my wife had loved our old 124 Spyder and thought the Miata would make a nice replacement after so many years. we sat in one with the top down and thought, "Ok it is cramped but with the seat all the way back not too bad." However with the top up and the seat where my wife would have had it if she had been driving, no way. I don't know how daysailer does it but you put on a Miata you don't get in one. We tried a P-5 after that and knew we needed to move to something bigger than the Miata. The Next day the ZTS was in the driveway with a huge red bow on the roof. She thanked me and said, even if I said I liked the Miata you remembered that I do have friends. It turned out for the best.

Mr_Shiftright

I can't fit in a Miata comfortably either. Oddly enough my MGB had a lot more room, as did my Alfa Spider. I'm not sure where all the room in the Miata went to...not the trunk certainly, and the engine isn't very big.

hwyhobo

I can't fit in a Miata comfortably either

I can be quite comfortable in a 2006 Miata (and drive) with an automatic, but who wants an automatic in a Miata? Unfortunately, with a stick I can't depress the clutch pedal - my knee gets caught in a vise between the steering wheel and the door.

I tried Pontiac Solstice just recently, and it was even worse, although considering mediocre fuel efficiency on that vehicle, I probably would not consider it seriously anyway.

jlawrence01

You may be right there ...

Until you ram your knee into the dashboard and tear your pants getting underneathe the steering wheel (which happened on my 1st entrance on the Corolla). And tears form.

My usual drive sits low, has a high roof, and a steering wheel that is easy to get under ... a great car for the elderly (g).

daysailer

I also had an MGB ('66) and it did have more room - I couldn't depress the pedals with the seat fully aft, although the steering wheel was a bit close. But the Miata's IRS requires much more space than the antiquated live axle of the MG and I believe the front wheels may have been nearer the front end of the car as well.

daysailer

Ease of entry/exit is far less important to me than the fit once I'm in the car, and I can think of no current vehicle that fits me as well as the Miata, except fot the angle of the lower seat cushion and lack of lumbar support. If the Miata had lumbar and seat tilt adjustment, it would be near perfect.

andre1969

my uncle had a 1988 LeBaron turbo coupe, which he later sold to me when I was married. My uncle's only about 5'9", but he has a large frame. Also short legs and a long torso, and over the years he's chunked up a bit.

I think he ended up buying that LeBaron spur-of-the-moment, because after the fact he said he hated it. To get in and out of it he had to put the seat back as far as it would go, and leave the steering wheel tilted fully up. It was pretty low-slung, and the seating position was low, too. And worse, the doors had no detents to hold them open, so they'd swing back on you if you parked on the slightest grade. Or depending on the slope, swing away from you and aim at nearby cars!

He also had a full-sized pickup, and ultimately used that for most of his driving. Now the LeBaron was a comfortable car once you got down into it. I was even impressed by its comfort, and little cars don't impress me easily. :P It was a pain for me to get into and out of too, though.

I'm only 36, but I've even noticed that getting into and out of these low-slung cars isn't as easy as it once was. Maybe that's one reason I've been driving the truck so much instead of my Intrepid?

Y'know how there are small car people and big car people? Well there are also car people and truck people. I've noticed that with my uncle, even nowadays he only drives his '03 Corolla when he has to, such as on his commute to work where he really benefits from the fuel economy. When he's home though, he does most of his local driving in his '97 Silverado.

I wonder if I'm slowly transforming into a truck person? I got my pickup back from the body shop the other night, and drove it this morning, and damn it felt good! Can a confederate flag and a gun rack be far behind? :shades:

andre1969

It's been ages since I've been in the old Miata, so I can't remember how I felt about it. I sat in the new one though, and it didn't feel too bad. Kinda hard to get in and out of, but I thought legroom was okay. It was definitely a better fit for me than the Solstice or S2000. I just can't get past the styling, which looks like a cross between an Oldsmobile test mule and a Good 'n' Plenty

snakeweasel

The only Miata I ever was in was my sisters way back when they first came out. From what I can recall I fit in it ok, but I wasn't all impressed with it.

I tried Pontiac Solstice just recently, and it was even worse,

So did I, while she who must be obeyed liked it I couldn't close the door (Ok I know I am big but come on now).

daysailer

Apparently, neither "snake" nor "weasel" is an apt physical comparison.

snakeweasel

Apparently not, the nickname I got as a kid for having the ability to keep from being in trouble (slippery as a "snake" and could "Weasel" out of anything).

That being said I found the Solstice to be lacking in elbow room. The door was already pressing against my body while it was still ajar. I am sure it would have closed completely and I could have driven it (as long as the window was down) but that side room that I desire was non existent.

kapbot

Maybe some of the problems you guys have fitting in cars is related to the amount of "fiddle" time you've had with them?
I've had my new car for about a month now and had ample time to fiddle with seat adjustments. I am about 5'10" with a 30" inseam, so I'm not tall or short. I haven't met a car yet that didn't fight me in regard to being close enough for the pedals, as compared to the steering wheel.
It's taken about a month in my new car to come up with a compromise of seat height, back recline and fore/aft adjustment that I am now pretty comfy driving the car.
Just a thought.

ateixeira

I have a '93 Miata and it's definitely tight.

A couple of things you can do if you own one:

* autocrossers often remove padding from the seat so they can sit lower in the car
* I've raised the front seat track using spacers, this gives my thigh some support

It's a bit better, but I'm about 6' with a 30 or 31" inseam so it's really borderline. I squeeze in.

Another thing - there is a time limit. I start feeling cramped after about an hour or so. It's not a good road trip car, for many, many reasons. But for my 45 minute commute, it's fine, I never feel that way. In fact I enjoy it thoroughly.

Oh, and it's 13 years old and reliable enough to drive every day.

-juice

boaz47

We don't get to talk as much anymore. But I am still waiting to see Subaru get passed third place in manufacturers in WRC. In fact right now Ford has a good chance to take first if they don't blow the last two races. Doesn't look like there is any way Subaru can break out of third even if no one else races the last two.

ateixeira

The Subaru WRC team has to get their act together. They've won one driver's championship but no manufacturer's championship for about a decade. :sick:

-juice

Mr_Shiftright

It seems like some interior room compromises are easier to get used to than others; for me, I can work with the steering wheel issues and shoulder room; but a low roof line that tickles the top of my head, or a car WITHOUT A DEAD PEDAL is absoutely not for me.

Also another real gripe for me is a car with the console situated in such a way as to put pressure on my right calf---that drives me nuts after 100 miles.

andre1969

With me it's not so much measured shoulder room as elbow room...how far away the door panel is from my elbow. My buddy's '06 Xterra has something like 58-59 inches of shoulder room, which would have done any 70's midsizer proud, but the way it's designed, you still sit right up against the door. I've whacked my elbow and forearm on it several times, especially if I'd go to put my arm up on the window sill like I would with my '85 Silverado.

I can deal with some steering wheel issues, as long as it's not so far away that I can't reach it (which the Corolla's would be if they gave it adequate seat travel) or right up in my chest like a 1947 Buick. And as long as it's high enough that I don't have to sit bowlegged around it and/or it interferes with getting to the brake pedal (Corolla, xA, Versa, Gremlin, 1957-59 Ford).

As for legroom, I prefer to sit stretched out, which is something that many cars these days simply can't provide for me. However, if the seat sits up high enough, it'll compensate for the lack of stretchout room. Like in my 1985 Silverado, for example. And provided that the raised seating position doesn't then interfere with the steering wheel and make me sit bowlegged.

Also, since I do like to sit with my legs stretched, most dead pedals are useless to me as they rob the footwell of precious legroom. Often with FWD cars though, the wheel well intrudes far enough in that you need the dead pedal to help square off the protrusion, so that would be a useless area anyway. This is one area where old 50's, 60's, and 70's cars excelled. Even in my '68 Dart, a compact, I can stretch my left leg out straight up under the dashboard. And the footwell area is shaped well enough that you really don't need a dead pedal.

Another thing I can't stand is when the seat forces you to sit off-center from the steering wheel. The Toyota Tacoma is like this, as is the BMW 6-series, and I'm sure countless other cars.

The only time I've ever had a car ceiling actually tickle the top of my head is if the headliner's coming down, though! :P I can't think of anything right offhand that's had inadequate headroom for me up front, although many modern cars have a side curvature, tumblehome, or whatever you call it which interferes with my peripheral vision, and if I were to lean too far to the left I'd come into contact with it.

I've experienced plenty of cars though, where I can hit my head on the rear window. And the way I see it, if something low-slung like a '70's LeMans coupe or a Dart hardtop still has enough headroom for me in back, then there's no excuse for a modern car to be inadequate! This might be one area where many subcompacts excel these days, since they tend to be more squared-off and upright.

imidazol97

You all have made me feel well off with my car adaptation problems. I have shorter legs than average for my height. So reaching pedals with steering wheel closer to me is the odd position in some cars. I've found the tilt wheels on GMs work well and our friend's new Corolla felt "odd." My adjustments are easier than some I'm reading here. In one Mustang I used a thin pillow that worked perfectly for long trips.

boaz47

Yes, it is all personal bias. I want elbow room. I don't sit that high in the seat but I do tend to slide the seat back so my legs just have enough room to hit the floor with the clutch. But I don't want to hit the door or my passenger with my elbow. So I will sacrifice a bit of height for a bit of width. Not a lot mind you. Ideally I will get both head room and elbow room. It was one thing I liked about my old SUV. It was like sitting in front of my TV in an easy chair. The passenger could swivel and almost walk back into the back seat to retrieve a drink from the cooler on long trips. I don't take as long of trips as I once did and I stop more often now that I have a smaller car. But I still looked for as much elbow room as I could get considering the size difference.

Mr_Shiftright

I agree about the elbow room. I would never have bought the xA if it caused me to scrape my elbow on the door---not a problem with this car, thank god.

Also agree about off-center steering---drives me NUTS!!

wale_bate1

Definitely personal.

Greatest cockpit I ever encountered remains to this day the '97 Eclipse. Tight little business center with everything where it should be and nothing that shouldn't be there. An absolute driver's delight, and great on a long haul too.

Last thing I want in a car is my living room, in any shape or form.

Definitely personal...

Mr_Shiftright

If I wanted to drive mom's sofa, I would have already put wheels on it. :P

wale_bate1

So you have driven a Buick or two...

hwyhobo

another real gripe for me is a car with the console situated in such a way as to put pressure on my right calf---that drives me nuts after 100 miles.

Amen! I don't get it. Everybody is putting huge center consoles now that play no useful role, just take up space with ugly plastic. Even some trucks or stately sedans with automatic transmissions experiment with this "form over substance" invention and put shifters on the floor in the middle of huge blobs of ugly black plastic. Put the shifters back on the steering wheels, where God intented them, and give me back my legroom!

smalltown

imidazol97, try a Hyundai or a Kia. They are very comfortable for people with shorter legs.

bobw3

I remember a Taurus I rented had a first row bench, with a center console that flipped forward then down and became the middle seat. Even if you never used it for a seat, it made for great legroom up front. And it would be nice to have the option of putting in an extra person (small or medium size) for short trips. If they can put 3 across in the second row, then there must be enough space in the first row. And I agree to put the automatic shifer back on the dash.

ateixeira

Gotta agree with you there, shifty, a dead pedal is absolutely necessary.

On the Miata I sometimes have issues when I wear bigger shoes or boots, I feel like my feet get tangled up in the pedals and carpets. The footwell is so small. There is a dead pedal, at least.

Much better with mocassins or even barefoot.

-juice

Mr_Shiftright

don'tcha feel like a dope when that happens? You come to a light, go to put in the clutch, shoe gets hung up, car stalls and hops---and people look at you and shake their heads......

Well the xA can't be TOO uncomfortable unless I'm a born masochist...in 11 months I'm just turning 14,000 miles.

Of course, over 200 miles in one trip, I'd rather have a BMW 7 series.

bumpy

Pfft. A shifter doesn't belong on the steering column any more than it belongs in the trunk. People who drive automatics don't deserve to have a shifter. Put a rotary knob on the dash, a little indicator lamp in the instrument cluster, and little paddles for manumatics.

british_rover

Agreed.

andre1969

I don't think they'd work on a lot of smaller cars these days anyway, because the moment you put them into a low gear they'd dig into your leg. Would a column shifter be harder to engineer into a car where the whole column clunks up and down, compared to having a stationary column and only having the wheel and a few inches of the column pivot?

And to be fair, I've driven cars without tilt, or with the older style tilt and putting it into low would still get in the way.

My only issue with a floor shifter is if it's in a bad location for me, or if the center console gets in the way. I know some people like having 3-across seating, but IMO, "true" 3-across front seats became history once downsizing started in the late 70's and split bench seats became more common.

snakeweasel

I would agree but in place of the little paddles for manumatics I would have a little sign saying "if you really want to shift do it right and get a manual".

iluvmysephia1

are an abomination.

Cars with manual transmissions - a shift above the rest.

snakeweasel

Really? Get your manual tranny and follow me home from work some day. Then tell me how autos are an abomination.

bobw3

...and no A/C, power windows, power door locks, cup holders, power brakes, ABS (a "real" driver will pump their brakes), air bags (a "real" driver can avoid accidents), navigation systems, starter (a "real" driver will go to the front of the car and give it a crank), etc....

tsgeisel

I heart my abomination!

Read the long-term log book entry for the Civic SI back on the Inside Line site. There's a recent entry on driving that car (with it's manual transmission) in rush-hour traffic in LA. Makes me glad for having an automatic.

And after that incident with a manual transmission and a parking garage when I was first learning to drive, I'll take an automatic, thank you. Especially because I visit SF on occasion, and that's not a place for an inexperienced manual transmission driver.

I feel the same way about cruise control as you feel about an AT, btw...

boaz47

I didn't used to believe Cruise control was very necessary. However it is an option that came on most of my cars since 1989. Looking at the last two cars I have bought one has Cruise and one doesn't. One has power door locks and one doesn't. One has ABS and one doesn't. Now I am considering getting Rid of my F-250 diesel and one of my two Sedans. I sat down with my wife and we looked over the positives and negatives of the two cars in dispute. I have gotten so used to Cruise and Power door locks. I can't imagine driving anywhere over 25 miles away and not using cruise control.

Mr_Shiftright

I'm still determined to invent a magnetic force field generator so that I can hook onto the car in front of me in 5 mph traffic.

But seriously, if you get the RIGHT stick shift, with very easy clutch, short throws, and a clutch pedal positioned so that you can just rock with your ankle and not lift your foot---it's not so bad at all.

snakeweasel

Read the long-term log book entry for the Civic SI back on the Inside Line site. There's a recent entry on driving that car (with it's manual transmission) in rush-hour traffic in LA. Makes me glad for having an automatic.

I have to agree with what was written. I for one think a manual can be a lot of fun. But not stuck in rush hour traffic in one of the largest metro areas in the country.

boaz47

Yes, but in heavy traffic a stick is the least easy option. You should try it in a KW with a 45 foot trailer and 12 gears. My sister in law is a Bus driver for OCTD and they converted to Allisons or something.

iluvmysephia1

beneficial exercise, too, it's not so bad. Switching to a new or different car's clutch and pedals can require a break-in period, yes. But the benefits gained in additional exercise are yet another reason that a manual transmissioned rig is a superior one.

snakeweasel

it's not so bad at all.

Yes its that bad at all. If I want that much foot action in my commute I would get a bicycle.

ateixeira

You still have plenty of foot action with an auto. For instance you have to keep your foot on the brake to prevent creeping.

Traffic stinks, period.

The clutch doesn't bother me on my 45 minute commute. I really did on a 10 hour road trip that should have taken 5 hours, though.

-juice

boaz47

Somebody has to call Bandini on that. Exercise? Is lifting a coffee cup exercise? Maybe getting a super gulp is more exercise because it is bigger and heavier and you have to lift it more? Wouldn't jack rabbit starts be more healthy? Mash the pedal to the floor, lift off. Mash it to the floor again and lift off again? Good thing the Pinochio story isn't true.

hwyhobo

Put a rotary knob on the dash, a little indicator lamp in the instrument cluster

Fine with me, just don't shove that mostly decorative stick right where I need the space most. Remember, we'ra talking about automatics, so the shifter is more pretentious than practical.

lilengineerboy

Read the long-term log book entry for the Civic SI back on the Inside Line site. There's a recent entry on driving that car (with it's manual transmission) in rush-hour traffic in LA. Makes me glad for having an automatic.

I feel the same way about cruise control as you feel about an AT, btw...

I just prefer to live somewhere with a reasonable commute and traffic doesn't suck. How people put up with that I have no idea.