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What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

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Comments

  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    While hardly a sub-compact, I was kind of intrigued by the Mazda5. It seems like it is a mini-van (back doors slide on either side) and it seats 7, but it is actually mini. The current crop of "minivans" are about the same size as a full size van a few years ago. Maybe this "microvan" thing is starting to make it from over there to the states.
  • ratbert1ratbert1 Member Posts: 72
    We were going to buy a Mazda 5 until we came across the Suzuki SX4. The difference that sold us on the SX4 was having AWD.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I was actually thinking of Iluvkia guy the other day as the local Ford dealer just got a Suzuki franchise.
    Great, where the heck were they when I was looking all over for a Swift GT 16v??
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    If they can sell you a new Swift GT now, I'd like their address please...

    :-)

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'd bet with loaded roof racks and/or roof-side luggage you'd lose about 3-5 MPG in just about any car.

    If one is regularly piling stuff on the roof of a Fit you really should have bought a Navigator in the first place.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,718
    my explorer loses maybe 1 mpg with all kinds of stuff hanging off it; cargo box on the top, 4 bike rack off the back.
    of course, the mileage is not too good unloaded.
    yeah, it is a compromise.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I was running a Yakima roof rack all summer for moving bicycles around and there was a 2mpg hit from the rack (the bikes didn't seem to make that big difference, although they did spend a lot of time up there).
    Going to a trailer hitch rack, I don't notice any hit at all to the MPG for the rack. I actually did it so someone 5'2" could load and unload bikes, the mpg was a bonus.
    With 4 bikes on the back you are getting close to the tongue weight limit for the hitch (class 1, 200 lbs tongue- 4 bikes * 30 lbs/bike + weight of bike rack) and the handling of the car changes.
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    or any other appendage will compromise the dynamics and fuel economy of a vehicle. But when used on an occasional basis to increase the utility of a small vehicle, they make far more sense than to drive a larger, more clumsy, more fuel hungry vehicle ALL of the time.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    So true, I have used the roof rack of my Elantra several times and it was pretty much a God send those times. But I haven't used it nearly enough to warrant a bigger vehicle.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Oh I definitely agree. A good rack system turns any vehicle into a utility vehicle. I brought home 20' deck boards on that rack, a kitchen sink, small furniture, and I borrowed a SpaceCase for trips that mounts to that rack. Normally, its just bikes up there though, or occasionally skis.
    You just have to make sure not to exceed the vehicle's roof rating or the rack's cargo rating (the deck boards were pushing my luck!!).
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,022
    kinda hard to attach nowadays, since cars don't have those lips with the little rain gutters running along the roof edges anymore?
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    maybe, I don't know, but since I have a wagon the car came with one built onto it. Its really handy.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    No, it's really easy, just not cheap. Thule and Yakima both make racks that use "fit clips" which is a bent piece of metal and a rubber pad that clip onto the integral rain gutter that is built into the roofline.
    The first time you install it, it takes about 30-40 minutes, and then after that it takes about 10 minutes. The rack and attachments aren't cheap, replacing my system would be about $500 (4 towers, 4 fit clips, 2 load bars, 4 fork mount racks with full trays, a fairing and locks [rack to car, fork mounts to rack]). To move to another vehicle, I am out about $40 for new fit clips (less on ebay).
    I have had really good luck with mine, its been used on 4 cars, it holds up really, and helps me schlep all this cr*p without a bigger vehicle.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I remember those, down to the "Real-Time 4WD" badges. That actually evolved in to the CR-V if you think about it, Civic based and still using RT4WD.

    Today's cars have everything you mentioned plus more insulation, side-impact door beams, and bigger wheels and tires. The 600 lbs makes a huge difference in crash protection, I can't imagine how poorly an '84 Civic hatch would do in today's IIHS offset crash tests.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They're great, I use mine all the time.

    Just check the capacity (mine's 150 lbs) and don't exceed the overall payload. For light duty jobs they work like a charm.

    Who needs a pickup to haul 4'x8' sheets of plywood? I average over 25 mpg and never had to rent from U-Haul or even those trucks Home Depot rents by the hour.

    -juice
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,022
    The 600 lbs makes a huge difference in crash protection, I can't imagine how poorly an '84 Civic hatch would do in today's IIHS offset crash tests.

    Actually something like a 1984 Civic might not do too poorly in one of those offset crash tests. In that type of crash, running something into a fixed barrier, additional weight will often work against you. Basically, those tests are designed to simulate you running head-on (either dead-on or offset, depending on the test) into another car of similar mass and speed.

    However, out in the real world, we can't predict what we're going to hit or what's going to hit us. And there isn't exactly a surplus of 1984-Civic-mass cars running about!

    I have an old Consumer Reports auto issue from April 1984, stashed away somewhere, and it had a safety article. I remember it started off with something like "No car built today can withstand a 35 mph impact into a fixed barrier. Yet the driver has a surprisingly good chance of emerging with either minor injuries or no injuries at all..."

    But then I wonder what started happening, because I remember by the late 1990's, many cars, regardless of size, were getting poor crash test ratings. Maybe the tests are more accurate now? Also, I'd imagine that the offset test would actually penetrate further into the car than a flat-frontal test, since a smaller area of the car is taking the full force, instead of the whole front-end.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    True enough about the lesser mass equating to much lower levels of energy to absorb, but I still think they'd do poorly. Improvements in the 90s were pretty dramatic.

    And yes, the biggest issue would be the mis-match against today's heavier cars in a multi-vehicle collision. A tiny car like that would have to absorb the brunt of the impact.

    -juice
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    who killed himself in the delusion that he could hold down 4x8 sheets on the roof of a car by lying on top of them.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Did he fly away, or what? That's nuts! :surprise:

    No, mine were held together with that plastic and some rope, and then tied down with rope and several bungees.

    -juice
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I wasn't thinking so much of bicycles as a severe limiter of MPG...I meant bulky, boxy things.

    How easy is it to load a bike on one of those racks?

    Shoot, if I could invest $500 in a rack system I'd rather do that than consider buying a slightly larger vehicle to accomodate my bikes (the xA interior just....just...allows one mountain bike with the front wheel off---it's a tight fit).

    Also you can add a trailer hitch and buy one of those types of bike racks...just plug 'em in and out.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    That rack has been on a Contour, a Civic, and an Accord. I am 5'7" and have no problem loading and unloading the rack on these relatively low vehicles. The other main user is 5'1" and has considerably more trouble, which lead to the trailer hitch mounted rack.
    Both current vehicles have a 1 1/4 trailer hitch, the rack slides in and bolts on. Ours will hold up to 4 bikes, but as I said, that much weight that far back you can feel when you are driving. Both of us can load and unload. Our hitch rack doesn't do anything fancy at all (got it on sale for $70 from REI). Nicer ones hold the bikes much better, fold away from the car more effectively and easily, and, most importantly the arms that hold the bikes fold down so you don't need an extra 2' to parallel park.
    [EDIT] One downside-the hitch rack will fit any 1 1/4 receiver and ours had an adapter to fit any 2" receiver...all of my friends want to barrow it all the time and its never at my house when I want to use it (the upside to this being I can usually make them go riding with me and they then have to drive since they have the rack, so I save gas... :D
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Ah, good tip...I'll be sure to buy the Norwegian 1 & 7/32nd inch hitch rack that no one else can use :P

    I've never yet been frustrated loading cargo into the interior of the xA but bikes and other "long" items are a hassle.

    Personally I'd rather own a vehicle that works 95% of the time for my uses and fails 5%, then one that is in maximum use 5% and empty for 95%. Driving, insuring, buying and feeding a large vehicle that carries one person and a container of milk around 95% of the time seems irrational to me just because you might "need it" for the occasional event. I always used to laugh at the "plywood" comment when judging the interior size of a vehicle, as if the person did this regularly when in fact it was 2X a year. I just have the yard pre-cut it to pieces close to what I want and then I do the trimming at home.
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    are infrequent, it may make more sense to rent a vehicle for those occasions. The one exception that I found is that its difficult to rent a vehicle for towing, short of a U-haul truck.
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    This is exactly our strategy. We own small cars, and whenever we need a larger vehicle for a specific application, we rent one. In fact, we decided a number of years ago that whenever my wife and I plan a driving vacation, we rent a car. It's cheaper in the long run and eliminates the wear-and-tear on the main vehicle. For a recent 6 day trip to western NY from the midwest, we rented a 2007 Camry SE - total rental cost, excluding gas of course, was $170.

    Just how many times do people who own a large SUV, or even a minivan, actually use the extra space?
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    Just how many times do people who own a large SUV, or even a minivan, actually use the extra space?

    When we leased our Expedition back in 1998, my wife was working at a job where she had to go to Sam's Club every other week to buy $500 worth of groceries. No way was that amount of food was going to fit in something smaller!

    We took the Expedition (and the Explorer that followed it) on a couple of road trips to Los Angeles and Las Vegas.

    At the time, our kids were pre-teen and teenagers, so we were constantly hauling their friends around. Wife refused to buy a minivan, so we stayed with the SUV's.

    However, like you, the first time we did the trip to the west coast, we rented a Taurus that cost us nothing - used my Amex reward points.

    Now, we drive what we feel are "right sized" vehicles - Saturn VUE for the wife, and a Saturn L300 for me.
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    can be a mixed bag. Last year we decided to rent for a long weekend trip because the rate was less than the cost of using our vehicle. We ended up with a Buick LaCrosse and upon return, we agreed that the savings was not worth the discomfort as compared to our own vehicle
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'd take that bet. I bet I could get $500 worth of groceries into a Scion xA...unless you guys eat plywood :P
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    The majority of our furniture has been sourced through the classifieds or Craigslist. You can rent a 5x8 single axle U-Haul trailer for $18/day including insurance. When we need more space for bringing home a dining room set or the entertainment center, 2 days advance notice and $20 gets me a trailer.
    Can you tow that with an xA? Probably not (the trailer and contents are less than 1000lbs though so maybe). Can you tow it with an Accord? Definitely. (nothing against the xA, I was just making the point that you can still have a relatively small vehicle like a 10 year old Accord function as an SUV on occasion).
    Unloaded the car gets ~30mpg, loaded pulling the trailer it gets like 12, but thats not important. It only tows maybe 2 or 3x a year so I am not paying for capacity I am not using.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,022
    Would an xA have a larger cargo volume than a 1998 Tracker convertible? My roommate and I used to go to Costco and load up, sometimes spending about $200-300. We'd have that sucker packed to the ceiling in the back, and often I'd have to sit with stuff in the passenger side footwell behind my legs, and sometimes with groceries on my lap.
    However, that $200-300 worth of groceries would usually include bulky items like toilet paper, paper towels, a 50 pound bag of kibble, a 30 pound tub of cat litter, a 24/30 pack of bottled water, etc.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Bikes aren't too hard because the Forester has the lowest roof in its class.

    And the roof rack cross bars came standard. So all I'd need to buy are clamps, and then Subaru re-sells all the Yakima stuff. You can even use Chase credit card's Subaru Bucks rewards to pay for them.

    Any how, I have what you mentioned later - a hitch-mounted bike rack. It only fits 2 bikes, I wish it could hold 3, but at least it does tilt out of the way so I can open the hatch.

    -juice
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    If I had it to do again...which I might if I don't get my current one back eventually (and win the lottery), is something like this...
    Swing-Away Thule 998XT Trailblazer hitch bike racks
    It swings away from the car altogether to give access to the hatch, and the arms fold down so it doesn't stick out as far behind the vehicle.
    I think there is a 1 1/4 version of this rack as well.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Seems to me if you have a 4-door car, access to the hatch isn't all that important.

    Scion xA cargo area -- oh, way more than a Tracker.

    Here's what you can stuff into an xA:

    xA Cargo

    So that stuff is way more than 10-15 grocery bags.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,022
    Here's what you can stuff into an xA:

    That really doesn't look like a whole lot to me. Throw that 2-drawer cabinet in the back of my Intrepid and the rest of that stuff would probably fit in the trunk. My buddy's Tracker could probably swallow most of that with no trouble. Maybe if you had a pic of all the stuff packed in the car, or with a person standing by it, I'd get a better visual of just how much stuff that is.

    When I moved a few years ago, we used the Tracker to transport the tv sets...a 25" console tv that dates back to the Iran hostage crisis and a newer 32" tube tv. NOT at the same time though!

    I do remember there was something funny about the way the back seats folded on that Tracker, though. Seemed like they still took up an awful lot of room. I think the seatbacks folded forward, mostly flat, and then the whole thing tumbled forward. It's a shame they didn't make them where you could easily remove them.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I don't really know how big a Tracker SUV is inside, sorry:

    xA usable cargo space with back seats flipped down is:

    54" front to back

    31" of height

    50" of width

    So it's a far amount of room. I don't think your Intrepid could take an object as bulky as what might fit in an xA even though you might have similar cargo area in inches.
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    FWIW . . . my daughter has hauled a 18.5 cu.ft. Amana refrigerator, along with some other "stuff" at the same time in her Classic SAAB 900S 3-door hatch. Amazing volume in that car!
  • szetoszeto Member Posts: 4
    We bought a 2007 Mazda 5 Touring with auto transmission about 10 weeks ago and have enjoyed its driving feel, flexible 2+2+2 seating, and convenient non-powered sliding doors. Mileage in mixed driving has been about 23.5 mpg.

    What sold us were its good value (accessories, interior quality, and amenities relative to its MSRP), driving feel (very quick and sporty), maneuverability (tight turning radius and responsive steering), trim size (about 80% overall size of a typical minivan, e.g. the Sienna) and overall build quality. After some aggressive negotiating, our out-the-door price was just over $21,000.

    We concur with Consumer Reports that the Mazda 5's 4-cylinder engine could use more power (especially when fully loaded), but then its mileage would be lower and its price would be higher. In the end, we chose the better MPG (all the time) over the greater horsepower (needed infrequently). With regard to its size, the Mazda 5 is about 4 inches shorter in length than our BMW 528i. What a surprise!

    Hope this helps.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,718
    the powertrain will loosen up with miles. it will take a while, based on my '04 2.3 focus.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I know, I used to have one of those cars. They were great haulers (when they ran). :P Even better was the 5-door Saab hatchback. There is a shop in Berkeley that totally rebuilds them for people, top to bottom...basically a "brand new-old" Saab 5 door. People love 'em and they are a highly versatile design that is also fun to drive (when they run).

    One reason I got the xA is that the design reminded me (in concept, not look) of the Saab 5-door hatch.

    The new Matrix has a neat feature...it's a 5-door hatch with a front seat that folds completely flat...so you can stuff in an object long enough to reach from tailgate to dashboard!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,022
    was the bottom of the tailgate flush with the floor, like a station wagon?

    I guess that's one thing that makes the newer hatchbacks so versatile, is that many of them have a big station wagon style rear door, instead of the older styles where you still had to lift stuff up over a high sill in back.

    About 8 or 9 years ago, I put a newer seats in my '68 Dart. I forget what they were out of...something like an early 70's Demon/Duster most likely. With the seat all the way back, I could fold the passenger side seatback all the way down to where it was flat. The driver's side would have been able to do it too, except for the steering wheel.

    When I delivered pizzas, for awhile Little Caesar's was selling this mess called "Pizza By the Foot", which came in a long, skinny box about 4 feet long. That folding seatback came in really handy for transporting those things, and getting them into and out of the car easily. I remember we had this other driver, a chunky dude who filled up about half of the cab of his little 80's Nissan pickup truck. He ended up quitting, because he couldn't fit them beside them in the cab! Guess he could've put them back in the bed, but they most likely would have slid around. And they never did think this promotion through...we had no hot-bags that would fit the things! I would usually just take one hot-bag and put it on either end, and that covered most of it.

    That fold-flat front seat is a neat feature. I think my buddy's Xterra does it, too.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    NY Times Article

    Situation
    Insurance Institute for Highway Safety says small cars not intrinsically dangerous on own
    But technology can't overcome inherent weight disadvantage in collision w/ larger vehicle
    In all crash types, 117 driver deaths per million subcompacts in 2004 vs 68 for midsize cars
    Driver fatality rate in multiple-vehicle crashes highest for smallest category of cars
    Safety advocates say cautious driving can mitigate risk of being injured in crash
    Carmakers increasing crash compatibility of different sized vehicles to reduce injury risk

    Significant Points
    Automakers adding more safety features to small cars: ABS, ESC, side-curtain air bags
    Today's small vehicle shopper less interested in lowest price, more willing to pay for features
    Many new subcompacts earn good ratings in crash tests
    But IIHS says even w/ good performance, size counts against them
    Says 5-star subcompact less safe than 5-star larger, heavier vehicle
    IIHS expects fatalities/injuries to rise w/ shift to smaller vehicles

    Counter point
    In all crash types, 117 driver deaths per million subcompacts in 2004 vs 68 for midsize cars
    More young people by smaller cars because they are less $$$, make riskier driving decisions, have more accidents, etc
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Total nonsense on the counterpoint.

    Anyone can "afford" a couple of year used larger GM or Ford or simmilar for less than the price of the cheapest new car.

    People drive small cars by choice. Not based upon economics.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    No the counter point is valid.

    Younger drivers tend to drive the smaller cars.

    Younger drivers tend to drive more aggressively

    Hence smaller cars are more likely to be driven more aggressively.

    Now since more aggressive driving results in a higher accident rate and a higher accident rate would result in a higher fatality rate. Hence cars being driven more aggressively (more small cars than large ones) would result in a higher fatality rate.

    People drive small cars by choice. Not based upon economics.

    Not true many people drive a small car because of economics. many people who cannot afford larger car will buy the less expensive smaller cars.

    So while some may drive a small car by choice, others buy them out of economics.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I agree with counterpoint---when you factor in demographics, I bet this whole theory falls apart. What you need to do is chop off the extremes of age on both ends of the spectrum, and put middle aged drivers into subcompacts and see what happens to driver deaths per million.

    Remember when the Camaro was billed as the deadliest car in the world? Well, duh, look who drove them.

    Also, we should look at the "relative" safety of the modern subcompact...it's far safer than a 1985 Civic...how could it not be with ABS, side, front, head airbags and traction controls?

    But yes, if a Southern Pacific locomotive hits your Echo, it's going to hurt.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    But yes, if a Southern Pacific locomotive hits your Echo, it's going to hurt.

    No it won't. That Southern Pacific locomotive wont feel a thing and will shrug it off.

    The Echo and its occupants will not hurt either they will simply cease to exists.

    Remember folks ties go to the train.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • mwqamwqa Member Posts: 106
    I look at the big vs. small car safety issue as an environment vs. safety issue. Bigger cars are not environmentally neutral. For the added safety of a big car, you damage the environment more.

    I prefer to drive a small car that pollutes less. Yes, I risk not surviving a crash, but at least I know I'm not killing the planet - or my grandkids.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    My dad's Park Ave Ultra is a huge monster of a car. As big as a Towncar.

    Gets 22/27 mpg highway in normal driving. That's not a whole lot worse than some of the smaller cars like a Mini(23/32) or Mazda 6. 24/31 with the tiny 4 cyl engine - the 6(20/27) is worse than the Buick, despite being 500 pounds lighter(3378lbs vs 3879lbs).
  • tsgeiseltsgeisel Member Posts: 352
    First one I've seen, or at least noticed, on the road here. A very pretty shade of blue.

    And it looked like just about any of the modern 5-door compact/sub-compacts out there. It could easily have been mistaken in passing (so to speak) for an xA, and not so easily for a Matrix. It has that getting taller towards the passenger seat effect that you the Mazda3 or Fit don't have (that I remember).

    So...what's wrong with sub-compacts these days? Smaller cars have less room for design innovation. Or maybe I'm the only one who doesn't consider a taillight redesign to be "innovation" (it *is* definitely design, though).
  • mwqamwqa Member Posts: 106
    Nice example. According to http://www.fueleconomy.gov/ the 2005 Buick Park Avenue (the latest year they have stats) gets 20/29, the Mini gets 26/34 and the Mazda6 gets 23/28. The Park Avenue also has the best pollution score (6) vs. 2 for the other 2 cars.

    However, the Mini does have the lowest Green House gas emissions at 6.3 tons, a ton and a half less than that of the Buick (at 7.9 tons). Not as safe, but still better for the environment.

    Me? I’d choose the 2005 manual Echo – mileage is 35/42, the pollution score is 2 but the GHG are only 4.8!

    As far as NHTSA crash ratings go, the Buick is pretty impressive. It received a front seat, side impact rating of 4 stars, whereas the Mazda6 and the Echo only receive 3. (I couldn’t find the stats for the MINI.) However, at least as far as the Mazda6 goes, it is worse in frontal collisions (3 stars vs. 4 for the Mazda). What’s this? A lighter car safer in frontal collisions than a heavier car? Say it ain’t so! :blush:
  • wave54wave54 Member Posts: 211
    Counter point
    In all crash types, 117 driver deaths per million subcompacts in 2004 vs 68 for midsize cars
    More young people by smaller cars because they are less $$$, make riskier driving decisions, have more accidents, etc


    Anyone know what the average age of subcompact buyers is? I bet it's 30 or better. The current crop of small cars is just too stodgy for most 18 year-olds, with the possible exception of the xA.

    I don't believe that subcompacts, as a class, are being driven by the group of drivers who are most aggressive and prone to higher accident rates.
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