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If it creates a market for the car it is very smart. Sacrifice profit now for more profit later on down the road. Might work and if it does its very smart.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Cars like the Scions are marketed with the expectation that some kid will buy them and either put in an ear shattering stereo or hop-up the performance using TuRD factory parts. Dropping 12.5k for an xA, then adding $500-600 worth of factory warranted suspension changes and some $$ to +0 or +1 the tires and you will have much better handling.
I don't think the braking is limited by the brakes but by the tires. If you add Kumho VictoRacer V700s, the car will corner and stop on a time (for a few 1000 miles anyway), but the fuel economy will take a big hit vs the LRR tires that are on there.
My point is that they are optimized to be efficient and that includes compromises like small LRR tires. There is factory support to personalize the vehicle to meet different needs, but as shifty pointed out, after a point its not such a bargain anymore.
This month, one of the R&T editors talked about trading his Mini in for a Vibe and the compromises that required.
Five or six of my friends have Smart cars. Most of them are micro car collectors and they do like the Smart Cars as they are modern vrsions of what they collect.
Having said that, when they show their vehicles, people will look at the Smart Cars and the reaction - even among younger people - is very mixed. If they bring an Isetta or a Gogomobile or a Fiat 500 with the Smart Car, the older car gets more reaction.
Personally, I do not think that DCX is going to make money on the vehicle - EVER. The price is too high and the reliability too low.
I think there might be enough of a market for the car as a second "commuter" car to make it viable in the future. I can easily see having a Smart for commuting and light errands and the wife having the larger sedan that would be used for her commute and the "family" car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
But if you surveyed the public, I think you would find that the automakers have taken a wise tack with this: way more people want low-priced reliable transportation than want pavement-ripping mini-road monsters. The market speaks, the carmakers listen. Maybe you will see a proliferation of sporty trim levels on these otherwise basic cars, if they really take off. Which would be fine with me.
And as lilengineer pointed out, until then some of these companies, notably Scion and Honda, now with Hyundai jumping into it as well from what I hear, will provide plenty of factory support for making these cars faster and better-handling.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
And if the manufactureres don't do it, surely there is a growing aftermarket business for pretty much every make and model available.
Yes, you are correct that there will be plenty of factory support to make these little cars faster and better handling. I agree 100 percent. And once the factories see that people are making these little cars faster and better handling what do you suppose will happen to the showroom factory offerings? If more people wanted the cars are you suggesting it would be a no brainer and the Smart and several other small cars would have been here last summer or even two years ago.
There has to be some reason for the caution manufacturers are exhibiting and I just happen to believe it is the experience they have had trying to release small economy cars in the US over the years only to see them get bigger and more powerful. Or are we saying there is no HP wars?
Heaven knows many of us are more than willing to accept even a sub compact or micro car as a city car but we also can remember what happened to the Metro and the Suzuki. We remember the Echo even more recently. If people wanted them they would have bought them but they didn't. I understand Shifty and your position that just because history is against them doesn't mean they will not make it this time. I simply don't hold as much faith that we as a nation have learned to accept less as more. Someday we might but the drop in fuel prices over the last two months has started to show how easy it is to refocus the consumers fears. It also shows that Sub Compacts were at least in part Fear driven. Just my reasoning on this however.
Maybe in Athens this would be a good car, or Rome, with skull-crushing gas prices, centuries old narrow streets and very generous parking regulations.
Gee, take a hint from history, DC...the MINI was a smash right out of the box, but this "micro" has been struggling in its BEST markets, and now comes here to succeed? Huh?
I don't disagree that its our own fault, but that is even more reason to be dissatisfied with the situation.
That's something I've always wondered about. I think it would be interesting if the buff rags like MT, C&D, etc would add in a test where they put 2 or 3 passengers, and list the added weight, so we can see how it pulls down the performance of various cars.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You are absolutely correct, in this case we have met the enemy and the enemy is US. I don’t see us changing anytime soon.
Really I understand your point about the gas prices, but $3 a gallon isn't going to drive people into microcars. It would have to be like $10 a gallon, and would you bet me that Toyota doesn't come up with a better, bigger competitive product with equal gas mileage?
The Smart's mileage isn't all that great considering the incredible compromises you have to make. It would have to get 100 miles a gallon in a $5 a gallon world to tempt me. If it's going to cost so much, it had better earn its keep.
At least my xA puts $1,200 a year in my pocket, vis a vis my old car's fuel costs (or at least it DID put that into my pocket when gas got expensive....now, maybe $800 a year). And it seats 4 + luggage.
For the record, I drive an old beater that gets me the ten miles OW to work each morning. If it should ever NOT start - and that hasn't happened in six years, I could take the train to work.
The problem that I have with the Smart Car is that you are paying top dollar for a vehicle that offers no flexibility and will have some pretty high operating costs. By high operating costs, you'll pay more for insurance, maintenance, etc, than the usual subcompact. The mileage that I have been quoted from my friends all hover in the 50-55 mpg range. (I have been through all the numbers as my friend has been twisting my arm to join him.)
Personally, I would be more tempted to head to Mexico, purchase an econo-vehicle, license the beast in Nuevo Leon or Chihuahua, and drive it back to Chicago and achieve pretty much the same for less.
Or buy another midsized car off-lease.
No, it's not. The 1st-gen fortwo is only available in the US in an aftermarket-legalized form, so that extra conversion work is going to jack the price up, just like any other car not built to US regulations. The 2nd-gen fortwo (just introduced at some European auto show) is built to meet US regulations, and all indications are that it will arrive here next year in the $15k neighborhood.
So, your $15,000 can get you an xA with four seats, a little trunk, and mileage in the upper 30s; or it can get you a Smart with two seats, a little trunk (in front), and mileage in the upper 50s (the diesel will be a bit shy of 70 mpg). Trading the back seat and ~600 pounds for 20 mpg and RWD is a good deal for anyone who doesn't need the back seat (no one with any sense needs the extra 600 pounds).
Yeah but that is a gray market car bought overseas at a minor discount from sticker shipped here and then modified for the US. That adds a lot of cost to the car. You can't go by that. I would suspect if you did that to the xA it would be in the 20's too.
Really I understand your point about the gas prices, but $3 a gallon isn't going to drive people into microcars.
It was more than enough to get people to cut back on their driving. A 50% increase in gas prices is significant.
and would you bet me that Toyota doesn't come up with a better, bigger competitive product with equal gas mileage?
Well since there is only so much gas mileage you can squeeze out of a car before you have to make it smaller to do so I would take that bet.
The Smart's mileage isn't all that great considering the incredible compromises you have to make.
Well lets see, I said it makes a good second car for commuting in a two (or more) car family. So lets see what compromises do I have to make? Since my commute is just me and my lunch and maybe some paperwork with the occasional stop off at the store to get a few things I guess there really is no compromise.
Remember I am not saying its a good car for everyone nor is it a good car as a primary one. But as a second car it will meet most peoples needs.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Yeah, I'd imagine that the ride of most cars would deteriorate with 6 people on board! Unless it's something that's overly beefed up to the point that it's almost begging for more weight to hold it down. But that's usually a feature of trucks; cars usually aren't designed that beefy. My '85 Silverado, for instance, rides better when it's loaded up, than when it's empty. Empty it bounces too much.
I remember CR making a stupid comment along those lines about an Olds Toronado. I forget the year, but they were comparing it to cars that they had no business comparing it to, like a Honda Prelude. I remember them saying that the while the Toronado had more legroom in the back seat than the other cars, that only meant that taller passengers would be as cramped as shorter passengers in the other cars! Or something half-cocked along those lines.
I could see complaining about a headrest being too low for a tall driver when it's fully UP. But fully lowered?! Sounds like someone at CR was just having that time of the month, and wanted to find something to gripe about on the Stanza.
For the record not everyone could take the train to work.
The problem that I have with the Smart Car is that you are paying top dollar
The problem I have with that is no one knows what the price is going to be yet so that comment is pretty much nonsense.
Personally, I would be more tempted to head to Mexico,
Good luck getting it licensed in IL.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Sorry, I don't buy this manufacturers' omniscience. Had they been so insightful, they wouldn't have been struggling on the verge of bankruptcy now with inventories of unwanted behemots skyrocketing.
No, it's true that the American market is different from the Asian market. That's why we get Camrys, Altimas, and Accords designed specifically FOR the American market. The Accord that the rest of the world gets is considered too small for American tastes, so we get it offered to us as more of a niche-market upscale sporty car, the Acura TSX.
However, I do see your point about the domestic manufacturers not "getting it". But Toyota, Honda, and Nissan do show with their products that the American market is different. They just adapt to it more quickly!
This car makes no sense whatsoever to me. I couldn't think of one reason to buy one. It is basically functionless except maybe on a golf course. $15,000 for what exactly?. If it could undercut a Daewoo for $7,500 bucks, well maybe.
And don't hold your breath about it getting 55 mpg at 80 mph on US freeways either. Reality will set it, just like it did with the Prius. "Oh, it's not 60 mpg, it's 44!"
And that was indeed what I wanted to convey. Our domestic manufacturers seem to be in a constant catchup mode, and adjust only when they're forced at gun point. I remember when the gasoline prices skyrocketed and everyone around me was talking about fuel efficiency, GM first ignored it, and then came out with the most ridiculous commercials advertising the supposed thriftiness of their SUVs. I thought I was going to choke in disbelief when I saw it. You cannot possibly provide a better proof that a company is totally out of touch with reality.
In the meantime Toyota and Honda were cleaning their clocks. Well deserved, I might add.
http://www.aicautosite.com/editoria/asmr/svcoupe.asp
Of the new crop, the Yaris has been around the longest, since roughly March with any sort of real dealer stock. It is on track to sell over 100K/year, higher than Ford's sales targets for ANY of its new models this fall. Not too shabby, eh?! ;-)
Whoever thinks Americans are rejecting subcompacts wholesale maybe ought to think again...
In six months we will have a full year of data for other models which have no meaningful data now, like Versa (introduced late in the calendar year) and Accent (production crossed over with the new model available since mid-spring). Then we will perhaps see that even as Americans rejected SUVs and full-size pick-ups to the tune of a double-digit decrease through October 31 this year (per Autoweek), they were busy buying pretty much every subcompact the automakers could manage to get out the factory door and onto the boat.
And as for the sporty argument, well, the most popular vehicles BESIDES the Ford F-150 and Chevy Silverado (not everyone's cup of tea) are midsize sedans with a very low sport quotient. THAT is why automakers don't put a lot of effort into adding "sport" to cars they view as their transportation bread and butter. Same rules apply to cars of all sizes in this regard, so it is misleading to single out subcompacts on this point.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
11,392 units is certainly nothing to thumb your nose at. If they had its sales posted in with the sedans, it would fall in between the 300 and Prius for the month of August.
I wonder what September and October sales were like for the Yaris? I'd be curious to see if dropping gas prices caused sales to back off any?
I should add that the new Accent is coming on so strong that there is a worldwide shortage now, so it will be intriguing to see what numbers it turns in after the first full year. Versa is selling very strongly, and with production limited to 40K/year, Fit waiting lists are still 6 months long!
Meanwhile, the xA, a car that is essentially a 7-year-old model from the Japanese home market, is still selling to the tune of 35K per year as well even now.
Oh yeah, and they sold 14 Echos this year too!! :-P
(it's been off the market since late 2005, those were just leftovers)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
There are a lot of people getting fat, with huge debts, no savings, and driving around in $40K cars, eating in restaurants every night and owning homes they cannot afford...and of course they complain about their money & health problems and how stressful their lives are (and how they can't fit in a subcompact car!). On the other hand, I'd rather live in a modest home, drive a subcompact, and live with less debt and more savings. I'm just happy that there are plenty of cars out there for less than $20K to satisfy my needs, mostly from Japan.
That's enough to make any car salesperson go pale. Isn't part of the problem that dealers don't want the customer to buy a cheap entry level car? They'd rather you buy (at least) an midsized car. You and I know that there is a difference in ride, performance and quality, but some dealers seem to have an irrational fear about offering the less expensive products.
If you can't afford a proper car and have to get a compact car because of your finances, you should be buying used and saving your money.
There aren't many mercedes you would want to buy for 13-17k unless it is a several year old C-class. Besides Mercedes never did anything for me.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
And, no, currently, most compact cars aren't proper or adequate. They are as people have stated here, what's left over in the parts bin and rental fodder. At best you get something like a Civic that while adequate, is pushing $18-20K out the door and not "economy", and at worst you get something like a Daewoo Kalos(oops - I mean "Chevy Aveo") that's a total joke of a car that rattles, bounces, and drives like a total compromise.
You want side airbags, traction control, ABS, and all the normal goodies that you desire, but you have only $15K? Buy used. Stop complaining that you can't get it in a new car.
The best example of this insanity is a $9995 Budget special Aveo/Rio/etc. Cheap tin can of a car. Or you can buy a three year old Crown Vic. Big, yes. Built four times more solid than the budget wonder? Yes as well.
A Benz, LeSabre, and even an IS300 are large and heavy cars and therefore unfit for consideration at ANY price. $15k will get you a Hyundai Elantra with traction control, ABS, and side airbags if you really need that large a security blankie.
Give me the Fit Sport or base Mini Cooper any day over those monsters. Heck, why not throw a used Explorer into the mix? Same diff. No desirability at all. And God SAVE US from the flood of used GM rentals. They are the answer to the question "when is an attractive price not really attractive?"
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2) The Smart Car is readily available throughout Canada at a very hefty price.
3) You can drive a vehicle licenced in Mexico in the US. Egads, if the government won't enforce the immigration code, what makes you think that they'll be checking licensure on someone holding a visa to work in Mexico.
At the same time, people think they are saving the planet driving a tiny car that gets 38 mpg as opposed to a Buick 3.8 getting 30mpg.
People have different metrics for making a vehicle purchase decision. Sometimes its logical, sometimes its spiritual, but the argument that someone should spend the same money for this car or that car doesn't work. Different people derive value differently.
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I wouldn't call 23/32 stellar, especially when you can get 22/32mpg out of a midsize GM sedan(Chevy Malibu with the bigger engine).
Even the Grand Prix gets 30mpg highway. To me it's not just about size. 32mpg is certainly not far from what some of the subcompacts get. I'll take the extra thousand pounds of metal and features over a Kia anyday.
BTW: Suzuki Reno. 22/31 MPG. Worse than the Malibu V6. Most of the ones that aren't total tin cans like the Aveo get maybe 34 highway on average. I'll sacrifice 2mpg and not have to search for three months to find ABS and side airbags. Never mind traction control. It's not even available on a Reno or half of the Kias. Power windows, decent brakes... the list goes on and on with extra-cost options. Some of them even charge you for floormats and simmilar nonsense that you get in the bigger used car.(and a Malibu isn't a huge Buick, either)
You seem unable to understand that some of us PREFER smaller/lighter/nimble/responsive. I would choose a Mini over a Buick even if it cost MORE and consumed more fuel!
But their gas mileage really stinks.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
My next-door neighbor bought a new 2006 Hyundai Sonata GL earlier this year with all the above and more for $14.5K, before TTL.
Not entirally true. My choice of where to live is not completely up to me. Certain thing severally limit my choices of where to live, especially when it comes to access to public transportation. Usually it means living in either run down neighborhoods or over priced neighborhoods. In either case it would be over crowded, congested with abysmal parking.
Add to that that more and more jobs are locating to areas where public transportation is poor at best means that my ability to use public transportation more by circumstances than by choice.
2) The Smart Car is readily available throughout Canada at a very hefty price.
It is supposed to be introduced here at under $15K
3) You can drive a vehicle licenced in Mexico in the US. Egads,
You can drive it here, yes. But thats different than getting it registered here.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
In my opinion, as folks over the age of 60 get older and older and stop driving, the need for a lot of GM cars (especially Buicks) will disappear. It seems like the internet-aged folks are more likely to do more research on their car purchases compared to older folks who go back to their GM or Ford dealer every three years to have the dealer "guide" them to their next car that they'll drive for another 3 years.
In general, I think that GM and Ford need to get rid of some of their divisions (Buick, Lincoln, Mercury, Pontiac, etc), consolidate their operations, and just focus on building a high quality subcompact, compact, mid-sized, and full-size car, a minivan, a compact, mid-size, and full-size SUV/Crossover, and a couple of trucks. And then they should improve/upgrade those models year after year instead of retiring models and bring out new ones that last for a few yaers. Right now GM and Ford have so many division with so many different vehicles that are constantly changing, it's no wonder they can't focus on building a quality product.
Look at the Accord, Camry, Corolla, Civic, Odyssey, etc... How many different versions of these cars have been at GM or Ford under different names.
But back to subcompacts...if I'm in the market for a Honda Fit type vehicle, I'm not going to cross-shop a Malibu even if were the exact same price. Besides, why get a Malibu when I can buy a Ford 500 for about the same price and get better safety features? Why...because I'm not in the market for a 4dr sedan. It may sound strange, but there is a value to me in parking my 157" Fit in my garage versus a 4dr sedan that's 2 to 3 feet longer. There is a value to me in the handling of the Fit. There is a value to me in the high quality interior and overall reliability of the car. There is a value to getting 35mpg to me and just doing my part in lessening (yes in a tiny way) our dependency on foreign oil. There's a value to me in buying a brand new car vs a used one where I don't really know how it was driven and maintained. And there's a value to me in not spending thousands more for a brand new car when I don't need to. Bottom line is that I'm very happy that at least some manufactures are producing high quality small cars for those of us that value these things.