What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

carlisimo

A FWD car with great handling won't feel the same as a RWD car with great handling, but it'll still have great handling. Any drivetrain configuration can be made to out-handle any other, though ultimately AWD probably has the highest limit. Different dynamics, no less ability or fun. (The latter is entirely dependent on personal taste.)

The original Mini Coopers beat plenty of RWD cars in the Monte Carlo rallye, and a Mini Cooper S set the record on a certain SCCA autocross track that was previously held by a 911 Carrera S.

Lastly, the new 3-series is huge.

kyfdx

The MINI Cooper S has amazing handling... If you do the right things with rubber and suspension, you can get great results.. Of course, you pay for it in tire wear..

You won't forget that it is FWD, but that doesn't mean that every single RWD car has better handling.. Different, but not necessarily better..

In subcompact cars, you almost need FWD for packaging considerations.. otherwise, you might as well have a 2-seater (Miata)..

I liked nippon's comparison of the Aveo and xA.. Those are the kind of things that would make me pick the Scion (or Yaris.. I expect it to be similar).. But, taken to another level, it is what would also make me pick the MINI... I already go to that dealer for service, anyway.. and it is right on the way to work..

snakeweasel

Lastly, the new 3-series is huge.

First time I sat in a 3 series it was mighty cramped, no headroom, my legs were pressed against the steering wheel and I almost couldn't close the door due to lack of shoulder room. I recently sat in one and I was amazed that now I had plenty of head and leg room. However my left arm is still pressed against the door.

carlisimo

Yeah, I agree with everything you said. I also know what it's like to pay for excessive tire wear =].

prosa

The Mini of course has a "cute" image that no doubt has helped sales, while the xA enjoys Scion's trendy image. The Aveo, in contrast, is just utilitarian transportation, with no special image.
It'll be interesting to see if the Fit/Versa/Yaris will have any particular image beyond basic transportation.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't see the base MINI as worth $4K more than an xA. What do you get for the $4K?....you get cute, that's true, you get a car that runs on premium fuel (oops, there goes .30 cents a gallon), you get a dealer about a jet plane ride distant, you get scary reliability ratings, and you get acceleration about the same. Better handling, yes, but xA is fixable...easily...lowering springs 20 mm, 38 lbs air in the tires, bingo you are in a different car.

Once I priced out the Mini I REALLY wanted, it was $24,000....now THAT MINI was a lot different than an xA and you noticed it.

nippononly

Yeah. I didn't mention it, but the xA's handling is way better than the Aveo's too, while not as good as the Mini's.

The Mini has all sorts of quirky things that I figure will break before the car gets too old, like those windows that seal themselves after you close the door.

I see Honda trying to turn the Fit into the darling of teenagers everywhere with its trendy advertising on the website. I expect that to continue with the TV and print advertising when that time comes, so the cutesy thing is going to be big for the Fit. People on the Fit thread hate this aspect of the car.

The Yaris, not so much I am sure. I can't imagine any of them being particularly trendy, and I would like to see the ad exec that can manage to sell the Versa as "cute".

As for Rio and Accent, I think they have bitten off more than then can chew with the price jumps on the '07 models, but we will see. It should boost Aveo and maybe bottom-end Yaris sales though. I haven't yet personally experienced the '07 Accent, but if it is similar to the '07 Rio, then a price of $13-15K as I have seen posted on Edmunds is going to be higher than the market will bear, I think. Maybe they will also try for "cute" advertising themes....

kyfdx

Well.. yeah... the MINI that I really want is $25K...

Where do you guys live? The local MINI dealer is only ten miles away, and right on the way to work.. actually, much more convenient than any of the six or eight Toyota dealers in town.. Free service will make up for the $0.22/gal. premium for premium... and free loaners, if the car is in the shop..

I'm thinking there is some extra content in the way of amenities for that $4K, but I'd have to check... It isn't just pure handling prowess... I think the whole "feel" of the car will be an upgrade...

I'm really going to have to drive an xA or a Yaris..

regards,
kyfdx

nippononly

with the Mini you do get that bank vault feel that old Volvos had, but it comes at a price, to the tune of hundreds of pounds of weight. The xA has the advantage of being lighter, but feels a little less substantial, more light on its feet than the Mini.

Shifty says the Mini and his xA would accelerate about the same, but I dunno. I have driven both with the A/C running (the base Cooper, not the S), and while the Mini strains going up freeway ramps and the like, the xA revs freely and feels quicker. I have no idea what the instrumented times are. But certainly the xA gets better gas mileage.

And I have the choice of two Mini dealers, basically - I can drive into downtown SF, not my first choice usually, and the Mini dealer is then about 20 miles away, or I can drive to a suburban dealer which is two counties over, and would be about 35 miles away. Neither is close enough to easily combine a visit to the service department with a workday.

logic1

You won't forget that it is FWD, but that doesn't mean that every single RWD car has better handling.. Different, but not necessarily better..

I would not go so far as to say all RWDs handle better than the FWD Mini.

In my book, the 3 cars I mentioned, the 3 Series, Miata, and Solstice get the nod.

logic1

Lastly, the new 3-series is huge.

At 178.2 inches, the new 3 Series is larger than prior years. But it is still considered a compact sedan.

Mr_Shiftright

They gear the xA down for city driving, that's why it feels faster...but at 80 mph the engine is pretty tightly wound up.

There is no MINI dealer at all in Marin county. You have to go either to San Francisco (one dealer in entire city!) or way east to Pleasanton (an hour's drive and no way to ever get home again). The "only game in town" routine doesn't appeal to me.

Basically, the problem with some of these sub-compacts is that they are rather high risk propositions (do YOU want a first year GM product?!!!). I for one am not confident of a MINI's longterm reliability or a Kia's ability to not fall to pieces in 3-4 years.

But you know, you see that "Toyota" name, and you relax.

nippononly

a first year GM product, which is ACTUALLY first year Daewoo product! Less than inspiring, to be sure. But they are keeping the price low, something Hyundai apparently doesn't feel the need to do any more.

robertsmx

Yup. Hyundai Accent with 4-speed auto, A/C, and power locks/windows carries an MSRP of about $15K.

andre1969

the BMW 3-series is no longer today than it was 20 years ago. I just pulled out my handy-dandy Consumer Guide from 1985. They had a 318i and a 325e listed. Overall length was 176.8 inches. Looking up the stats on a new 325 coupe they're 176.7". The sedan is a touch longer, around 178.4". The 3- is one of the few cars that hasn't grown much, compared to other cars. Now it has put on about 4-5 inches of width (from around 64.5 to 69 inches) and it's put on around 500 lb (from around 2700 for the 1985 6-cyl to around 3200 today)

And the wheelbase has shot up, from around 101" to around 107". Basically, I guess you could call it a midsized car with subcompact overhang, and a compact interior.

Interestingly, the current 3-series is slightly lower than the old model as well in 2-door form: 53.9 inches versus 54.3 inches. The sedan's a bit taller, 55.9". Back in the 80's though, the 2-door was really more of a sedan than a coupe. Most likely back then they used the same roof, windshield, cowl, etc to save money, instead of going through the restructuring necessary to make a "true" coupe. Or was it the other way around back then...that the 2-door was first and the 4-door was added later? My Consumer Guide mentions something about how "The addition of a 4-door makes it even more appealing..." which suggests that it was a new introduction at the time.

kyfdx

Yeah.. the E30 started as a coupe.. then added the four door.. The cars were almost identical, though..

The E90 (the current model) really isn't very big... The biggest difference between it, and the '80s models is weight.. but, that isn't any different from any other modern car..

To re-visit an earlier discussion... I don't see the MINI as being a porker... I realize 200 lbs. is an 8% increase over the Aveo or xA, but still.. it is only 200 lbs.. It is still a fairly lightweight little car...

regards,
kyfdx

andre1969

Heck, at the DC auto show I remember seeing a Hyundai Elantra with auto, a/c, power locks/windows, and I think even a sunroof for around $15K! Definitely a lot of car for the money. There's still a trade-off though. It's EPA-rated at 24/32. So if hugging trees and that warm, fuzzy feeling you get by getting a car with high EPA ratings is a priority, there are better cars to do it in. Many midsized cars like the Accord and Camry actually do a bit better, and compacts like the Civic and Corolla blow it away. Heck, even some bigger cars like the Impala and 500 can come close to that highway figure!

But, if the car saves you $3-4K over a Corolla or Accord, that can pay for a lot of gas.

andre1969

yesterday in DC. As small as the new one is, it's a monster compared to the original! I'm guessing this one was really old...had a "Morris" badge on the back. Traffic was at a standstill and I was right beside it for some time. I don't know how long they are, but I'd swear that the front of my car was about even with its front, yet where I had the seat positioned, I was about level with the back of it! What are they, about 10 feet long?

As for the new one, I guess the reason it seems so heavy to me is that it's about 3 feet shorter than a Corolla, yet weighs about the same. The Civic is about 100 pounds heavier though, but still, it's a car that's over 2 1/2 feet longer than the Mini.

But then, I'm sure the Mini is a sturdy, solid little car.

nippononly

or, looking at it in a slightly different way, you could get the 200+ horses of the Lexus IS250 or the VW Group cars with the 2.0T, and have the same fuel efficiency! This despite the fact the Elantra makes, what, 125 hp?

REALLY not good, not good.

As for the Civic/Corolla comparison, there is a $2K difference in price, max.

badreligion

it's actually 138hp, and considering I got my 05 Elantra GT hatch, with automatic, leather, 15" alloys, spoiler, and 4 wheels discs for $13,500 brand new, out the door, I'd say that is a good trade off for the gas milage. Of course, if I had the money for a $30,000 car, I'd probably buy a Dodge Charger R/T, but gas mileage wouldn't be a concern at that point.

robertsmx

At $15K price point, the one things subcompacts lack is quality (interior, and drive train). Worsened, in some cases, by their poor fuel economy despite of having much less powerful engines.

If a new choice, or two, could fix these issues, the subcompact world will get a lot of attention.

nippononly

you are a fan of Honda - do you think the Fit will change that landscape in a significant way?

badreligion: I hear what you are saying and you have a point. The implication then is that you can't get the complete package in a car in this price range - you can get a load of equipment but yestertech under the hood, which I feel all the Hyundais are with the possible exception of the new Sonata, or you can get a stripped out vehicle with top-notch mechanicals, which the Echo mostly was.

Or you could get both but pay significantly more (the Mini).

The way I see this segment changing is that there are about to be a number of choices that would seem to finally give you both, a trend that began with the availability of the xA (Echo mechanicals including the superlative fuel economy, with a full complement of equipment, even SAB and curtains for $14K) and will now grow with the Fit, Versa, and Yaris, and yes, even the next-gen Accent and Elantra, and to a lesser extent Rio.

explorerx4

the mini is pure artwork on wheels. i don't care about the hp. i'm sure it is enough.
i saw an ad in the local paper today for an '06 aveo 'value model'. price 8972.

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah sure, try and buy it. Bet you can't.

snakeweasel

Why not? the invoice price is $8,836 and accoring to edmunds the price most people pay is slightly under $9,100.

robertsmx

do you think the Fit will change that landscape in a significant way?

Not by itself, but should play a huge role in it, along with Yaris and Versa.

Mr_Shiftright

If it's a stripper they only have one at the dealer I betcha (the ad might say "only one ...or ...only three at this price) and when you get there, they are gone...BUT...we just happen to have this OTHER one....)

kyfdx

I have a cheap Aveo ad in my local paper, as well... MSRP is under $10K with a $500 factory rebate... so, I don't think you'd have any trouble getting under $9K, assuming they have them in stock.. They would only need to discount the car $500-$600....

I'm wondering how stripped is "stripped"... I'd at least like a steering wheel and a brake pedal..

snakeweasel

Of course its a stripped car its the Special Value model. It has a 1.6 liter engine and a 5 speed and no optional equipment save an engine block heater. No power anything, no A/C, no theft deterrent, no keyless entry, no sunroof, no cruise, no anti-lock brakes, no CD player and no automatic transmission. And none of those things are options.

I did check inventories of Chevy dealers around town, now while there are not "loads" of them around they can easily be found.

Mr_Shiftright

Okay, I'll eat my words on that one....but....who would want such a car? An xA sounds like a Lexus compared to that thing...

snakeweasel

As a primary car I wouldn't want it. But my next car purchase will be something for the 25 or so mile round trip commute I have. I want something inexpensive thats good on gas. For that the Special Value model might work, I can drive a stick and I never use A/C.

Of course you can get a different model with a power package, A/C sunroof, CD player and all that but then you would be looking at around 14-15k fully loaded.

andre1969

originally wanted to get a cheap, stripped Echo for a commuter car, because he wanted to spend as little as possible. And for him it was just something to drive back and forth to work and beat into the ground, racking up miles and sacrificing itself to save his truck, which was getting up to around the 100,000 mile mark.

Unfortunately, he couldn't find a cheap, stripped Echo. I think they were also packaged so that to get one feature that he wanted (forget what it was now) you had to buy a whole bunch of other crap that he didn't want. Echos were also a rare sight on car lots around here at that time (early 2002) and the few he could find were usually stickering for $14K+. So he ended up just getting an '03 Corolla with more features for somewhere in the $15K range.

As for me, I actually prefer open windows to air conditioning. Except that nowadays, open windows seem to screw with the aerodynamics of cars so you either get too much wind in your face, or that annoying "helicoptering" thumpthumpthumpthump effect from the rear windows that splits your ear drums, and/or a noticeable drop in fuel economy so you're almost just better off with the a/c!

nippononly

Your uncle and I have exactly the same idea! Difference is, I bought used to get the car I wanted, which was $14,5 new because of exactly what you said (options packaging and whatnot, wanted the A/C and CD, liked the cruise). I got it with 60K miles and new tires and brakes for $9K. Hopefully they will package and actually BUILD the upcoming Yaris a little more prudently - minimizing price crossover with the Corolla, yet also building more basic cars that aren't total strippos.

And the Echo has the helicoptering thing going on too. You can drive it around town up to speeds of about 50 mph with no problem, but get it going 60, 65 mph and the helicoptering is annoying. I just close the windows and run the A/C, and FWIW the new '07 Yaris will have A/C standard, even on the most base model.

Mr_Shiftright

I couldn't be more pleased with the xA. I think it is a tremendous value for the money.

Now we need to IMPROVE it... BWAHAHAHAHA.....

andre1969

the Yaris at the Philly auto show was only priced around $12.5K, and was pretty well equipped. At that point I think it had an automatic, power windows, ABS, etc. Price almost seemed too good to be true!

And it also fit me a bit better than my uncle's Corolla...better seating position.

bumpy

As for me, I actually prefer open windows to air conditioning. Except that nowadays, open windows seem to screw with the aerodynamics of cars

I usually roll down both front windows about 2 inches and let the blower run on defrost, and that works fine for me.

snakeweasel

As for me, I actually prefer open windows to air conditioning. Except that nowadays, open windows seem to screw with the aerodynamics of cars

So do I and since most of my daily driving is 40 MPH and less I have few issues with the aerodynamics.

andre1969

my ears are very sensitive to that helicoptering effect. I think my Intrepid might have damaged my hearing! Or, if nothing else, made me more in-tune with that horrible sound. I can even hear it in cars where I never noticed it before. Seems like any car that has rear windows that don't roll down all the way will do it, it's just that some will do it worse than others.

Even on my old '89 Gran Fury, where the windows only stuck up about an inch and a half when rolled down in back, I could still hear the effect! Now cracking the front windows a bit will ease the effect or even cancel it out, so maybe it's really not THAT big of a deal.

I think I could start hearing it on my Intrepid at around 30 mph, but it would get bad around 45 or so. If you have someone you don't really like in the back seat of your car, rolling the back windows down at around 75-80 or so is always a fun thing to do! :P

FWIW, with my 3 1/2 mile commute to work, I could get by without air conditioning. In the mornings it's usually not that hot, even in the dog days of summer. And in the evenings, I'm in the car for less than 10 minutes, so I could deal with no a/c.

But now, when I went down to Florida last spring, it was so danged humid that I got addicted to the a/c!

carlisimo

Am I the only one who likes opening the vents and turning on the fans without the A/C on?

You get the benefits of closed windows. No drain on power. You get fresh air. It's not blowing in your face. You get enough of it even with the fan on low, practically silent settings. You have some temperature control as long as your car hasn't been parked in sun. It's all good!

snakeweasel

Am I the only one who likes opening the vents and turning on the fans without the A/C on?

No your not. I will always have the fans on to vent the car no matter what. However on those hot humid midwestern summer days we get just doing that with the windows up is not enough, you have to either turn on the A/C or roll the windows down.

nippononly

Yeah, if I had been ready to spend $14K, my car would almost certainly be an xA today, instead of "Nemo", my Echo. My original intent was to buy in the $5-7K range, which kinda got dragged up to $9K after everything I looked at in the $5-7K range was junk, or at least not worth the money.

The xA has great handling, in contrast with the Echo where it's just OK, not to mention a more modern and somewhat less plastic interior. Plus.............a TACH! :mad:

I do prefer wind-em-down windows to power, though.

I would like to see Scion release an unabashedly Japanese ist for American consumption, one trim level well-equipped, just like the xA, and call THAT the next xA. Then my hope would be that Toyota would also start to sell the Yaris 5-door here, under the Toyota badge. That they could sell as "option deleted" as the rest of the Yaris line, or as optioned up as it gets.

I would also like to see ONE of these models (you pick! :-)) get solidly into the 40 mpg range (combined), wihtout resorting to hybrid tricks.

Mr_Shiftright

I bet I can hit 40 mpg in most of the subcompacts if I'm careful...that would be highway driving of course,no strong headwinds or tailwinds, with 40 lb air in tires and speeds no higher than 65 mph. Bet I could do it or come damn close....

nippononly

I'm doing a solid 39-39.5 mpg in the Echo already, and that's in around-town driving with no special measures (tires run at the pressures specified in the manual) but not much speeding either. Hopefully the Yaris and the next-gen xA will come close to matching that, as the EPA rating sounds like it will be almost the same (at least for the Yaris). But I would like to see that rise 3 or 4 points, so everyone could get 40 mpg in their normal driving, and I could get 43 or 44. :-)

I would also like to see maybe 4-wheel discs and an honest to goodness (not just visual tack-ons) optional sport handling package on one of these little cars in a few years. That is why I want this segment of the market to expand, so that more options become available.

If Minis were built by Toyota (and got 40 to the gallon), I might be less leery of buying one. Actually, Toyota could skip all the sporty options if they would just bring over a car with real visual flair like the Mini. That's why I think they should just bring over the next-gen ist (due out any day now, right?) without changing a thing except for the minimum in federalizing. The JDM cars always get watered down before they come here (and Honda and Nissan are just as guilty on that count).

Mr_Shiftright

Reliability reports on the MINI are frightening. "They" say the 2005s are better but I'm not going to be the $22K guinea pig thank you very much.

Minis are a bit overstyled. I think I'd get sick of that interior after a while.

nippononly

with regard to the Mini, I would do away with some of the excess chrome inside, if it were me. And fix the cupholders...or did they already fix those? The Mini has a very hard interior, even if it is a stylish, hard interior. I am of the mindset that interiors that are softer to the touch are better.

And reliability? Let's not even mention that!

andre1969

they should get rid of that sea of cheap 80's VCR/electronics looking plastic. And tone down the oval theme a bit. As it is it looks like Mini hired on the designer of the 1996 Taurus, and also dug up (or exhumed) whomever came up with the dash design of the late 70's LeMans/Grand Prix!

I always liked good old fashioned chrome, or even chrome plated plastic (until it starts peeling, at least). The brushed/engine turned aluminum look is pretty nice, too. But I wish this fetish for the gray 80's electronics look would pass already!

robertsmx

I think I'd get sick of that interior after a while

That happened the first time I got inside one.

210delray

Am I the only one who likes opening the vents and turning on the fans without the A/C on?

I used to do this all the time on my old Volvo 240. It was a 2-door with the flip-out rear side windows. I'd keep these open all the time in the summer (except when it rained), and these plus the old-fashioned vent in the kick panel allowed a very good flow of air through the car at highway speeds. Plus even if I rolled the driver window all the way down, the road noise didn't increase all that much.

Now in my Frontier, there's too much noise when I put the driver window down. Plus, since it's a regular cab with a non-openable rear window, I usually have to turn on the a/c during hot weather, as the fan alone doesn't cut it.

andre1969

is back when cars had the little rain gutters, so you could crack your windows a few inches and still usually not get any rain come in. Most cars today have those little indents in the roof that suggest a rain gutter, but it's just not the same.

I guess those little gutters weren't so aerodynamic though, especially where they rolled down the back edge of the side window at the leading edge of the C-pillar.

imidazol97

The vents in the underdash kick panels were great. Last car that had them IIRC was 67 Mustang. 70 Mustang didn't have them. Might have been on non airconditioned model only in 67, but that was great to let air in on legs in summer time.