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What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

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Comments

  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    they ran the thing into a concrete barrier at high speed and it sort of just bounced off to the right, more or less intact?

    Yes that would be it. But at the same time, it violates the common knowledge that crumple zones are included to dissipate part of energy. If they aren't, it is the occupant that gets more of it. That would worry me.

    It would also worry me that big SUV drivers would mistake it for a soccer. But, that can be a good thing (they will stop!), or bad if they decide to play. :P
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    It might meet your needs, but it also will require for you to have a second vehicle to carry 2-3 people and luggage. While, a car like Fit wouldn't require a second vehicle in the house.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    It might meet your needs, but it also will require for you to have a second vehicle to carry 2-3 people and luggage. While, a car like Fit wouldn't require a second vehicle in the house.

    I think that is a great argument up to a point. For practical reasons, I need 2 cars that can each carry 2 adults and a baby and required supporting paraphernalia on a regular basis. That puts me most in midsized categories. However, for the 3-4 times a year I need to carry more people, I rent a minivan for the weekend. For the 3-4 times a year I need to carry more stuff, I rent a trailer from uHaul for $20.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Bingo Andre, you've exploded the parking myth. Fact is, a parking space, especially metered spaces in big cities, is a certain size and they aren't going to let you park two Smarts in there.

    As for being able to squeeze that Smart between two SUVs, well good luck when you look at your car's front end later in the day.

    I think people have a good instinct for "price point". They look at the object, touch it, feel it, whatever, and come to some conclusion about its value.

    You pick up a small but heavy container of ripe cherries and you might pay $4. But if it's a box the size of a cigarette pack, full of 12 cherries, you aren't going to pay that.

    I just stared and stared at a real Smart, and thought "this is not worth any $15,000 bucks!"

    Same with an electric motor scooter I saw. It wasn't worth $8,000. It was worth maybe $3,500. It's small, it's got two wheels. I can buy a Harley for $8,000.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,021
    Bingo Andre, you've exploded the parking myth. Fact is, a parking space, especially metered spaces in big cities, is a certain size and they aren't going to let you park two Smarts in there.

    Oh yeah, that's right...I didn't even think of metered parallel parking spots, which are going to be a consistent, standard size. I was down in DC on Monday, with my pickup, and the area I was in had a mix of metered spots and other areas were it was more of a "free for all", where if you could fit, go for it. I'll admit there were plenty of spaces I had to pass up with my pickup but honestly, they were tight enough you'd pass them up with almost anything. Except, maybe, a SMART!

    No matter how big or small your car is though, eventually it's going to end up with something parked less than a foot behind it, and less than a foot in front of it. So you're almost better off with some old beater that you really don't care about...preferably something with sturdy bumpers!

    If I lived in downtown DC or some other urban area, I'd definitely get a small car. Actually DRIVING in DC isn't a problem with a big vehicle. After all, if a driver can pilot a 40 foot bus through that city, then any private passegner vehicle is going to be a cake-walk in comparison. But parking can be an annoyance, if you're not in an area with metered spots. And in many cases, even if you have your own private parking, it's often in an alley out back. An alley that was designed for a horse and buggy, not a car.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    You guys are forgetting that you can save your bumpers by pulling straight in to the parking space. Nevermind the door dings.

    Know how you get all excited to see a parking spot and there's a durn motorcycle sitting in it? Smarts are going to be the same way.

    Assuming this link still works, here's a modded smart drifting all over and saying upright. And this is the smart crash vid.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,021
    You guys are forgetting that you can save your bumpers by pulling straight in to the parking space. Nevermind the door dings.

    But not in parallel-parking situations, which I find is the most common type of parking when I go into DC.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    That's how they park 'em in Europe in the parallel slots. :shades:

    Never saw a parking ticket on one parked that way either. Like this.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,021
    Okay, gotcha...guess you *could* do that with a SMART, but not with much else. Just imagine me trying to do that with my pickup, or one of my New Yorkers! I'd not only block the lane next to me, but probably part of the next lane over, too!

    I looked up some specs on a SMART, and it looks like they're 98.4" long. So if one pulled into a spot like that, say, behind my pickup, it probably wouldn't stick out into traffic. My trucks' probably about 78 inches wide, so you figure if I get lazy about it and get 12 inches from the curb, but that SMART pulls in with its front level with the curb, its rump would only stick out about 8 inches more than my truck. And the mirror on my truck would probably still stick out further.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I do wonder what the meter readers are going to do. If they try to ticket you for parking that way, you can point out that they don't ticket motorcycles for parking straight in or doubling up on a space (or maybe they do?). And lots of motorcycles are longer than smarts.

    If the city gives you flack about it, there's always the Parking Day protest approach.

    PARK(ING) DAY RETURNS This September

    image
  • stevecebustevecebu Member Posts: 493
    Well this YouTube video shows a Smart car crashing into a concrete barrier at about 70mph. The car survived, but would you?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju6t-yyoU8s
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    It will be hard to tell which way is front anyway. :P
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Your insides would be liquefied by decelerating that fast.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Ecology may be to the max.

    One Smart owner in Canada had vandals tip his car over in his driveway. I also think that euro magazine that does moose avoidance tests rolled an early first-gen model, but they changed the track width, tires, and/or suspension plus they made stability control standard.

    Parking spots: I was definitely thinking of special-made smaller spots for this express purpose. Hence my idea that they would need government help/subsidies.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Thats why I said "require". Smart is only a safer motorcycle. Unless one can live with just a motorcycle, then the argument won't apply. I use that approach for pickups. I can't justify owning one. When I need a pickup, I give a call to my neighborhood Enterprise.

    I do need space to carry a person or two, and/or my dog and have room to put stuff. With a car like Fit, I wouldn't need another vehicle. Unless there is a need to carry more than 2 passengers or haul more stuff. This is why Asian and European countries are fine with small vehicles that are very Fit. :D
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,729
    Ecology may be to the max.

    Nah. A scooter would beat it. A bicycle even moreso. ;b

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You just contradicted yourself, though.

    You could own a Smart and then rent a car for when you did have increased needs.

    90% plus of the cars on the road have only one single driver inside at any given time. So Smart meets 90% of our needs. Look at it that way.

    Most families would own more than one car, so a Smart and a minivan should be able to meet the needs.

    And you can still call Enterprise when you need 2 big cars, which is probably not often.

    It's not about NEED, though, it's about WANT in America. People want big, luxurious, fast cars.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,401
    I think the tipover car was the MB A-class
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I've owned several scooters, and trust me, those 2 cycle engines are anything but green. Not sure if nowadays they're all 4 cycle, but I doubt they're very clean in terms of emissions.

    What's the size of the Smart's engine? 1000cc?

    My scooter was a 125cc, but 2 cycles burn oil with the gas and I imagine they're polluters.
  • stevecebustevecebu Member Posts: 493
    Your insides would be liquefied by decelerating that fast.

    Yep, most likely, still I guess it proves that hitting a concrete barrier is a very bad idea. Somehow i don't think I'd want to hit anything that fast again.
    I hit a tree at shall we say an extra-legal speed when I was a young driver too fast in the rain. BIG tree. The car looked a lot like the front end of that Smart car except the engine was in the front seat with me. :surprise:
    They still can't figure out how I survived it. I'm just thankful that I did. :D
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,729
    new ones are world's beyond what we're used to. My BIL just got one. Its a 4-cycle. It can keep up with highway traffic and get like 80 mpg, IIRC. Pretty impressive.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    You just contradicted yourself, though. You could own a Smart and then rent a car for when you did have increased needs.

    There is no contradiction. For me, renting will become an everyday business. That is why I couldn't just have a motorcycle. Something like Fit, seems to hit the right balance, without going to either extreme.

    I could fit in just one car, with a wife and kid. Smart would force a second vehicle, even if just one needs to be driven. Today, I don't need room for more than one person during the day (commute). When I get home, I will take my dog out, and perhaps stop by on the way at Home Depot or do groceries. Smart would be half as fit in performing the duties.

    For single guys who would do just fine with a motorcycle or a scooter (minus safety aspects as they apply in the USA but not in Europe or Asia), Smart could work by itself.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It's not for you, but what I'm saying is your own idea makes it a viable option for many others out there.

    I have a 2 seater, so I know what it's like. There have been a couple of times where I was short on space. Once I offered my boss a ride and he brought his wife! Didn't tell me beforehand, of course.

    Plus I have 2 kids in the same school now, so I can't give them both a ride.

    But a lot of people can get by with just 2 seats for their commute. In fact most commute alone. Then just use the other car when they need space.

    Don't most households have 2 or more cars? We have 3 for 2 drivers. :D
  • jlawrence01jlawrence01 Member Posts: 1,757
    Wouldn't mind owning a SMART car as most of my driving is commuting OW to work 11 miles alone. Most trips with my wife are done in her lease Impala.

    However, since I have doensized to my Corolla, I have noted that some people find some great joy in tailgating compact cars with their bright light on at night. At that point, the Corolla seems pretty small when the offending car is an Expedition. And a SMART car would be that much worse.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Wouldn't mind owning a SMART car as most of my driving is commuting OW to work 11 miles alone.

    When my commute in California was 11 miles, I just rode my bicycle. In fact, there were times when it rained and localized flooding closed freeways and surface streets but I was able to get home using bike paths, sidewalks and yards.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well if you want to own a car that will appear in a coffee table book next year entitled "Cars of Yesteryear", then buy a Smart.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Like I said earlier, it can be seen as a safer alternative to motorcycles and scooters, nothing more. At $14K, a couple, with or without a kid or two, will need another car even if there isn't really a need for another. OTOH, if a family or a couple could do away with just one car, Smart won't Fit.
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    If someone does not need more capacity than offered by a Smart, why do they "need" anothe car? to my mind, the question is not the Smart's size, but whether it provides adequate performance.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    They were covered in my post. :)

    It won't be unlike someone who finds motorcycle to be sufficient. Except that Smart should be a safer choice.
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    That won't work in my State. Here is what the drivers hand book says and what they site you for.

    "When you park alongside a curb, the front and back wheels must be parallel and within 18 inches of the curb. Park parallel to the street if there is no curb."

    Posted from the official DMV site.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Ok, so you argue that the wheels are parallel (be sure to park nice and perpendicular to the kerb).

    But the back wheels won't be within 18" of the curb they say. Well, the outboard wheels aren't either when I parallel park normally.

    |xx
    |xx

    Curb's on the left in that ascii illustration. Who's to say which tire is which? They all are parallel to the curb, and the front and back wheels are parallel with each other (unless you hit that barrier at 70 mph).

    Now, the handbook is just a summary of the law, so there's probably a gotcha somewhere. But it'd be fun to mess with the magistrate's head with this argument. :shades:
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    I have always said that the Smart most likely would not be the choice car if its your only car. I have always said that it would be the perfect second commuter car.

    While, a car like Fit wouldn't require a second vehicle in the house.

    It would if you have two people who work at different locations. In that case something like the Smart would be the perfect second car for the other wage earner to commute to and from work.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    The question is would you be much better off in any other small car crashing head first into a concrete barrier at 70 MPH?

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • jlawrence01jlawrence01 Member Posts: 1,757
    When my commute in California was 11 miles, I just rode my bicycle.

    Unfortunately, my last bike ride ended up with me tossed head first off the bike into a ditch in Cincinnati. And the clown who hit me with hos truck took off.

    And I am afraid it would be worse in this area.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Parking spots: I was definitely thinking of special-made smaller spots for this express purpose.

    I was just thinking about the grocery store I go to, They have angled parking spaces but at the end of one of the isles (right by the entrance) the raised island is perpendicular to the isle so you have this small triangle parking space that the Smart might just fit in but no one else can.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    If someone does not need more capacity than offered by a Smart, why do they "need" anothe car?

    You are missing the point here. Many families need two cars, my wife and me need to cars or one of us has to quit working. So one car can be a larger car for when we need it and the other a Smart just so one of us can earn a paycheck. Why would we both need bigger cars when one will only be used for commuting and will rarely have more than one person it it, if ever?

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    "When you park alongside a curb, the front and back wheels must be parallel and within 18 inches of the curb. Park parallel to the street if there is no curb."

    But does it define which street?

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • stevecebustevecebu Member Posts: 493
    The question is would you be much better off in any other small car crashing head first into a concrete barrier at 70 MPH?

    I personally don't feel you'd be safer in anything under the size of a commercial sized Dump truck!
    Of course you might still die but you also might crash through the barrier. I don't think any passenger car would be very safe crashing at 70mph into anything unless it was like a Rally Car or something designed from the ground up knowing it will probably crash.
    Here are some clips that might prove valuable ;)
    Small cars, big truck
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F81YTwAYG5c

    Of course don't run into these with your Mack Truck
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oswSu2UgKpY
  • lemonhaterlemonhater Member Posts: 110
    The smart is small enough that it gets into the category of totally impractical. If you are a student where are you going to store you books and stuff? If you store them on the other seat now your two seat car has become a one seater and you can’t fit another person in. If you commute to work you might want to do an errand or two and I have trouble seeing how you could fit more than four worth of groceries in that thing without blocking your windows.

    A commuter car needs to be able to do more than just get a person to work. It needs to be able to do an errand or two in a pinch. It needs to be practical and two seaters while sexy are just not practical. Not many people would be able or willing to sacrifice having a back seat even if it is small and uncomfortable. Esp. in a car that has limited trunk space to begin with.

    This is where something like the corolla or versa or fit shines. It is big enough to fix four people if you need to. Granted it could be quite a cramped ride but better than stranding them or making extra trips. Has enough space in the trunk and passenger cabin to do be able to carry something is very fuel efficient while being easy to park\maneuver. Frankly we ask more from a subcompact than we do from a sports car or SUV.

    A smart and a minivan just won’t work. If the minivan is in for maintenance then your need to rent a car just to be able to pick the kids up from school. That is a no go. It is costly and a waste of time to call a rental for stuff like that.

    That creates a very inflexible situation where only one vehicle is able to do errands. Wife unable to get off work in time to pick up the kids? Now you need to drive your smart over to her workplace. Drop it off and exchange for the minivan. What a hassle and not worth whatever savings the smart car gives.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'd have to agree with this line of reasoning...there comes a point where reduction is size goes from being better to being worse. To use a kind of silly example or two.....too small a water bottle for hiking ("it's light, you can carry it in your shirt pocket, and it holds a full 2 ounces!") or a wrist watch so small you can't read the time.

    I think Smart crossed over that line and consequently has been a big sales disappointment since inception.

    It's not the car's engineering, or even its rather odd looks, or even its modest power that's the problem-- it's the size of the car.

    Or, to summarize my opinion---"it's small for no compelling reason".
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    When my commute in California was 11 miles, I just rode my bicycle.

    Unfortunately, my last bike ride ended up with me tossed head first off the bike into a ditch in Cincinnati. And the clown who hit me with hos truck took off.

    And I am afraid it would be worse in this area.


    I agree, I live in a college town in MI and I am still afraid to ride on the road. In CA, they have bike lanes and even left turn lights are geared to see bicycles, they are actually an accepted mode of transportation on the central coast.

    As far as Cincy, who ever let Loveland, OH happen should lose his job and be forced to sit in gridlock 5-6 hours a day for the rest of his life. What a miserable, poorly laid out area. I don't blame you for not wanting to ride around there. I think Wyoming, Cincinnati is about the only place you can ride, and even then its good the sidewalk is near-by.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    A commuter car needs to be able to do more than just get a person to work.

    Exactly. Hence my comparison to it with motorcycles. Its the other extreme. And, SmartForTwo is rated 4.7l/100 km (50 mpg, in standard gallons) in combined cycle with the 61 HP engine in the UK. Compared to that, Honda Jazz (Fit in the USA) is rated 43 mpg (in standard gallons).

    At that point Smart simply becomes an expensive toy that has extremely limited appeal and utility, with a little benefit in mileage.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Smart's real problem is the price point. It needs to be priced at about half what it is, because it's half a real car.

    Maybe the roadster will do better, since it's hard to find ANY cheap roadster...so here the price point is more competitive.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Link
    :P
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,021
    I've noticed that, too, when I'd drive my uncle's Corolla. I dunno if it's true or not, but I've heard that sometimes people have problems judging distance when it comes to small cars. I think it's just a perception thing, like they're using a bigger car as a reference point. If they're perceiving a Corolla to be as big as, say, a Crown Vic, well, the Crown Vic is going to appear Corolla-sized much further away than the Corolla will!

    At least, I think that's kinda how it might work. Speaking of perception, one thing I've noticed is that whenever I drive a car that's low-slung, like my '76 LeMans, '79 New Yorkers, or '67 Catalina, it always feels like people are tailgating me compared to my Intrepid or pickup truck. I think it's because the rear window and decklids on those cars are so low that I can just see more of the car behind me, versus something with a high deck like my Intrepid. Or something like my pickup, where some cars can almost disappear in my mirror if they get close enough.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I don't think the attitude is limited to, only against sub-compacts and compacts. I've noticed quite a few big truck drivers pushing in too close behind my midsize cars. I smile and keep my pace, much to their frustration. It is not that I'm clogging the left lane.

    It can only get worse if one were driving a toy. Most drivers don't respect motorcycles. It actually might be worse for cars like Smart.

    This also reminds me of a road rage incident where an SUV driver intentionally pushed a Wrangler off a bridge. With midsize or larger cars, they can't really do much (unless they are really dumb). But for something that could be mistaken for a soccer...

    (here's an idea, never get a Smart "Passion" model, painted like a soccer). :D
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,021
    I've noticed quite a few big truck drivers pushing in too close behind my midsize cars. I smile and keep my pace, much to their frustration. It is not that I'm clogging the left lane.


    Well maybe they're using other big-rigs to judge against, so EVERYTHING's gonna look small to them! :surprise:

    I knew a guy who was a total screw-up in life, until he became a truck driver. Which is kinda scary IMO. He caused a multiple car pile-up with a Ford Focus, and now they're gonna trust him behind the wheel of an 18-wheeler!

    I hadn't heard from him for a few years, but a couple years ago, saw him. He was driving his father's F-150 SuperCrew. He said that the thing felt really tiny, after getting used to an 18-wheeler! I guess what's big and little is really more in our personal perspective, rather than absolute numbers and dimensions.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,218
    Ironically, the best bike trail in southwest Ohio runs right through Loveland.. :surprise:

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  • ttaittai Member Posts: 114
    It goes to show cheap aint always good. Way too funny.
    Oh dear lord give me a Toyota.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqowtKFpZ_Q
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,021
    That was pretty amusing. And it shows that the Europeans get exposed to a whole realm of crap that seems to have gotten phased out in the States decades ago.

    Is there even a brand-new car sold in the United States that takes 14 seconds to go from Naught to Sixty? I think the last 0-60 time I saw that was that slow was for a Ford Excursion with the base 5.4 V-8. And for something brand-new taking 19 seconds, I think you have to look in motorhome publications these days!

    BTW, that little bright blueish-green car was kind of a neat looking thing. I think they called it a Proton Gen 2? Never heard of that...what is it?
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