1. They did not sign a marriage license to GM/Ford. 2. You claim that before they retired they had been the hardest working, the best educated, the most efficient, the most sophisticated, the cream of crop workers in the planet, arguably even Solar system, so pension is their hard worked money they reportedly deserve. 3. It is their money now so they can do it what they please. There is no clause in their contract saying "it is you money as long as you spend it on our products". 4. Their first obligation is to welfare of their own and their families and as such they have a duty to pursue the product they see best suits them and offers best value. 5. If they see that Accord is such a product, it is their duty (to family) and their free choice (their hard-worked money, remember Rocky?) to buy Accord.
This is regardless of what you, I, or anybody else may think about validity of their choice (i.e. whether Accord is really better) or what is their moral obligation or loyalty. If you like it otherwise, move to Cuba or North Korea, Rocky. That's the country (as was USSR and my own Poland, thank God no more), where there always was somebody else who knew better what was good for others and what was ones duty even at their own time or what they were supposed to spend their money on.
The name Roadmaster was on the largest Buicks with the most portholes back in the ?50s?. That was before my time.
But the people for whom Electra, Roadmaster, et others bring up posistive images are older; younger potential buyers don't have those associations. They associate with EX, DX, LX, 230, 540, N4, type naming. So the Buick replacement is called "Lucerne" just like Toyota named their larger model after the singer Frankie Avalon.
1. They did not sign a marriage license to GM/Ford.
Yeah they did sign a morale marriage agreement. When you have enough guts to backstab your company and union by buying a non domestic nameplate then you deserve to have you pension, retirement, terminated immediantly. :mad: The UAW and the workers it represents have members trying to work their butts off to keep what they faught for. That also means keeping the company afloat so it can continue to pay it's retirees health insurance, pension at 100%. I'd personally slap a ex-autoworker that worked for the Big 3 for doing such a thing and bragging about it. :mad:
2. You claim that before they retired they had been the hardest working, the best educated, the most efficient, the most sophisticated, the cream of crop workers in the planet, arguably even Solar system, so pension is their hard worked money they reportedly deserve.
I think you are taking what I said WAYout of context. However some of what you said is actually funny. You making a mountain out of a mole hill pal. Neways, yes the majority of UAW workers are very hard working folks. Yes some are college educated, and yes some have unique skills that can only be acquired with alot of "OJT" time. They are a very efficient workforce as a whole. They are loyal to company, country, and care about the good folks of this nation. Their are few bad apples, in every pot. Those apples should be discarded. :mad:
3. It is their money now so they can do it what they please. There is no clause in their contract saying "it is you money as long as you spend it on our products".
You are correct. However it's a matter of personal morales. Either you got em' or you are a big fat pig that needs to go to the processing plant ! :mad: I have no respect and won't have anything to do with such pigs.
4. Their first obligation is to welfare of their own and their families and as such they have a duty to pursue the product they see best suits them and offers best value.
Well selling out your union and your union brothers and sisters is the exact same as selling out your personal family. If it wasn't for the good contracts and sticking togeather of the UAW and it's members they wouldn't have a pension, health insurance, etc. They'd be a greeter at Wally World, exactly where a trader deserves to retire and spend his last days.
5. If they see that Accord is such a product, it is their duty (to family) and their free choice (their hard-worked money, remember Rocky?) to buy Accord.
I also see it as a duty to run them off the road for being the trader/coward they really are ! Your trying to fire me up this morning.
This is regardless of what you, I, or anybody else may think about validity of their choice (i.e. whether Accord is really better) or what is their moral obligation or loyalty. If you like it otherwise, move to Cuba or North Korea, Rocky. That's the country (as was USSR and my own Poland, thank God no more), where there always was somebody else who knew better what was good for others and what was ones duty even at their own time or what they were supposed to spend their money on.
My relatives found this country, and it should be you that moves back home!!!!!! I guess you lack patriotism or perhaps you might not know what that word means yet ????
I agree Poland is far from a world class established country, they have a populus that's exploited by a corrupt government. I had a good friend from Poland "Warsaw" I used to work beside at Johnson Controls, and he said that's why he came to the states. Well if we keep on this economic trend of outsourcing everything to China, and every other 3rd world country we will be about as well off as Poland, in the not so distant future. Perhaps you don't see it coming ????? Some of us unfortunatly do
Well, I always wondered where the Avalon came from, but the older set liked Frankie and Annette so maybe it's the very American Vegas and Frankie Avalon connotation that Toyota was hoping to click on!
Avalon is a mythical city in an uncharted part of the Pacific, where mankind is isolated from war, famine, disease, etc. Mankind lives only for pleasure, freed by the servo mechanisms that provide everything...food, shelter, scanty clothing, etc. It's almost a utopia, except for one small catch. Life must end at 30, although if you really believe and your heart is true, you will be reincarnated.
Since they kill 'em off at 30, there's nobody left to drive Buicks! :P
That means no Avalon buyers around here. And I'm noticing, almost no Camry buyers...
I wonder why the Japanese companies don't name their vehicles Tokyo, Kyoto, Hokkaido, Nagasaki, and other Japanese name etc., instead of Dakota, Tacoma, Avalon???
Yep and so did GM, maybe GM should hold up their moral obligation and build a car they want. Its a two way street.
You are correct. However it's a matter of personal morales.
Again its a two way street.
Well selling out your union and your union brothers and sisters is the exact same as selling out your personal family.
No its not, there is a saying that goes "blood is thicker than water". Plus ever sat in an union negotiations? Unions sell out there membership all the time.
I also see it as a duty to run them off the road for being the trader/coward they really are ! Your trying to fire me up this morning.
You see it as your duty to punish people simply because they have a different viewpoint? Did you once belong to the KGB?
I guess you lack patriotism or perhaps you might not know what that word means yet ????
I think it pathetic to question someones patriotism because of their buying choices. IS everything you buy American made? I doubt it.
And BTW when your relatives came here mine most likely greeted them.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
doesn't the mid-line trim level with the V-8 start around $29,995? Actually doesn't seem like a bad price, considering that's around what a Charger V-8 or 300C V-8 would base at.
Sorry Avalon is a legendary British Island know for its apples (Avalon from the gaelic word for apple). According to legend King Arthur is buried there (or rather asleep there until Briton needs him again).
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Yep and so did GM, maybe GM should hold up their moral obligation and build a car they want. Its a two way street.
So you don't believe in loyalty to the hand that feeds you. I guess this is american morale ethics by some today. Perhaps that's why we have so many problems in this country. No loyalty to company, co-worker, neighbor, country. It actually makes me sick. I sometimes wished I would of grew up in the day when America was actually "tight" and one another gave a rat about each other.
No its not, there is a saying that goes "blood is thicker than water". Plus ever sat in an union negotiations? Unions sell out there membership all the time.
I guess you'd have to define selling out its members. Yeah when your company is going through some hard times such as the Big 3 are then some members might feel that way. However yes I've been through a few negotiations and haven't expierenced feel that way. However I'm not going to say it doesn't happen. The non-union alternative is fired with no recourse.
I think it pathetic to question someones patriotism because of their buying choices. IS everything you buy American made? I doubt it.
That wasn't a direct response/reply to the poster, but was a response to a retired UAW member, that turned out to be a trader, coward, pig, backstabber, etc. :mad:
And BTW when your relatives came here mine most likely greeted them.
>The non-union alternative is fired with no recourse.
Acquaintance in Tennessee has just gone through this. Had an injury under workmen's comp; employed by another company; problems with inept workman's comp in state; new company dumped him in favor of part-timers with no benefits; no rights under state rules. No wonder Nissan built a plant there; the companies rule and the state departments are pathetic.
So you don't believe in loyalty to the hand that feeds you.
I believe in loyalty, but I also believe that its a two way street. If the "hand that feeds me" isn't being loyal to me why should I to it? Now don't try blaming problems that GM has on GM retirees not buying their product. Its not the lack of loyalty that causes the problems, but rather the problems that cause the lack of loyalty.
I guess you'd have to define selling out its members.
Perfect example was UPS back in the 90's. The union kept the union members from getting a better retirement plan simply because the union would loss control over it.
That wasn't a direct response/reply to the poster, but was a response to a retired UAW member, that turned out to be a trader,
Again don't blame the consumer for GM not producing what the consumer wants. Its not the retirees fault the GM won't produce what he/she wants/needs.
Perhaps we are distant "kin"
I seriously hope not.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I believe in loyalty, but I also believe that its a two way street. If the "hand that feeds me" isn't being loyal to me why should I to it? Now don't try blaming problems that GM has on GM retirees not buying their product. Its not the lack of loyalty that causes the problems, but rather the problems that cause the lack of loyalty.
Agree on some of what you had to say. However if your neighbor see's you as a retired UAW member not driving the products that you once built then it would have a drastic effect on the image of the company, thus perhaps you losing your retirement benefits because your company filed bankruptcy. Alot of the vehicles sold in this country are by word of mouth still. However back on GM in particular they have been loyal to its UAW members. GM put food in my mouth, gave me shelter, clothes, and other luxury material things. I owe them my loyalty.
Perfect example was UPS back in the 90's. The union kept the union members from getting a better retirement plan simply because the union would loss control over it.
I having close friends working for UPS, know that's false propoganda put out in the press. However it was a nice smear campaign. :mad:
Again don't blame the consumer for GM not producing what the consumer wants. Its not the retirees fault the GM won't produce what he/she wants/needs.
GM doesn't produce as bad of cars as many of you label them to be. Their is no reason why you can't find a product your company makes. :confuse:
actually, right now it is looking like I might buy my sister's RSX off her when her lease is up in about two years. The deal looks decent.
If not that, then my next car will come from the new group of subcompacts just hitting the market, and all of them are in contention except the Rio and maybe the Aveo - I haven't decided on that one yet. But when the time comes (probably about two years out) I will be checking out all the rest of them. It would be nice if Ford's global small car could come here by then too. And Suzuki's new Swift. I would include both of them on the list, although the Suzuki is a long shot because of the non-existent dealer network.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Most likely Subaru Impreza WRX or Legacy GT/Outback XT wagon. If I can afford (not likely), maybe BMW 325xi wagon or Audi A4 wagon. Possibly also Audi A3, Saab 9-3 wagon or Volvo V50.
My basic requirements are wagon/hatchback body, manual transmission, good fast engine and (preferrably but could waive that) AWD.
If Cadillac manufactured manual wagon CTS, I would test it, but they don't. If Ford had manual wagon Fusion with V6, I would try it, but they don't. Heck, even 4-cylinder would be worth trying. If Chevy offered Malibu Maxx with manual, I would at least sit inside. If Dodge came with Magnum manual (even V6), I would give it a try, too.
So, Rocky, before you send your death squad to my house, please point a car from UAW that would satisfy those criteria and I will be happy to give it a chance.
And if I was shopping today it would be for a red F150 SuperCrew. I saw one yesterday and it looked great!
BTW, Some of you guys need to brush up on your English. "Morale" is what you inspire in people. "Morals" are those internal guiding principles of right and wrong. A "trader" is found on the floor of the NYSE. Benedict Arnold was a "traitor".
However back on GM in particular they have been loyal to its UAW members.
I know many that would disagree with that.
I having close friends working for UPS, know that's false propoganda put out in the press.
Having seen both plans (as well as also knowing people who worked at UPS) I can tell you it wasn't false propaganda.
GM doesn't produce as bad of cars as many of you label them to be.
No they don't, but for the most part they don't have the "WOW" factor. I mean who in their right mind wants to be seen in an Aztec?
Well if you are part Norweigan, then
Lets see there are two types of people in the world, Scandinavians and those who wish they were. There are two types of Scandinavians in this world, Danes and those who wish they were. :P
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
"If Ford had manual wagon Fusion with V6, I would try it, but they don't. Heck, even 4-cylinder would be worth trying."
I think Ford wants you to try out an Edge when they get here later this year. :-)
The Maxx is due to expire entirely this year or next, isn't it?
The A3 is sweet, I almost bought one when I drove it. The Legacy GT looks real nice too, but it is bigger of course. I would be surprised if you bought any of those over the A3 once you drive it, unless you get the Legacy.
And of course, the five-door GTI will be here this year, which is just a less expensive VW version of the A3...something to consider. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Well my next car will most likely be an inexpensive compact or subcompact. It will just be used to run to and from work, take the dog places and run occasional errands. So it might be:
Hyundai Accent - have good experiences with the make, good price with lots of options. Also waiting to see the hybrid.
Chevy Aveo - Rock bottom price with no frills but its only for a 12 mile commute.
Some other possibilities
Scion xA Saturn Ion Mazda 3
But its a few years to go so who knows what will be out there when I am ready.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Lets see there are two types of people in the world, Scandinavians and those who wish they were. There are two types of Scandinavians in this world, Danes and those who wish they were.
OMG I'm also part Danish :surprise: Norweigan, Danish, German, lol. However your reply was most humourous.
I'd pass on the Aveo. I'd wait for a GM sale maybe on the Cobalt. I'm not sure when your going to buy, but the G4 might be inexpensive. The Toyota Carolla is also a good deal and is better than the yuk AVEO.
"you see that I just picked a Japanese car over a chevy" :surprise:
So, Rocky, before you send your death squad to my house, please point a car from UAW that would satisfy those criteria and I will be happy to give it a chance.
What do you want ???? A Wagon ???? How much do you want to spend ???? Is a SUV ok ?????
Lessee... first choice from whoever offers a subcompact diesel hatchback in 2007. Failing that, whoever offers a hybrid subcompact hatchback. Failing that, whoever's subcompact hatchback I like best (unless I decide to put together an S13 Silvia J's first).
As many know, I'm as hard on GM as anyone. When I look at pics of the Saturn Aura, I shake my head wondering how the same company that has designed this fine looking automobile, also designed the GP, G6, and Malibu. Wow, GM may finally have a midsize sedan I might want to buy.
Great looks (IMO), great looking interior (IMO), and a competitive powertrain (FINALLY). Assuming the car drives as nice as it looks (big assumption here with GMs reputation, but I'm being optimistic that it will perform well overall), the only thing that might actually keep me from buying one is availability and of course price. We might need to purchase a vehicle by August and the Aura's may still be hard to get that soon.
Yes, a midsized/"midsized-" wagon with low CG, manual transmission, and decent/high power. What's so strange about that? I want driving capabilities of sporty sedan and extra accommodatios/cargo space of rear hatch. All I need and want is to get sporty car, to which I can put a box of newly bought TV or other medium-sized box. I don't tow, I don't haul people, I like to play with the shifter, I like to go fast, whenever conditions allow, I like good cornering even on wet surface. I like to put my bike on a trailer hitch mounted rack behind my car. I am single, have resources for one vehicle and want "all in one" package with one small extra requirement, which is manual transmission. If I need a truck, I rent one for a day (or ask a friend who has one and is willing to help). If my folks come once every five years, I rent a minivan.
Only sporty wagons can offer it. Only foreign companies understand that mindset, as everywhere esle in the world it is not so odd to actually wanting it all. It's not my fault that in this country people cannot comprehend that you can have it all and do not need a roadster for good driving or a tank for good cargo space.
SUV IS NOT ACCEPTABLE (to me) - too big, too high CG, too poor handling, no manuals available. Period. The closest to what I may want in Nissan Murano (no manual) or BMW X3 (manual available, but not so hot inside).
I do not say others are wrong with their choices - buy whatever you want or like. Let me buy whatever I want and like.
If Ford/GM/Chrysler offer a UAW vehicle that fits my description, I am not going to refuse it.
By the way - new Caliber, esp. SRT-4, may join the list. Lets just wait and see what they actually offer at the time of my shopping. It may already be too small - I have a car that size/image right now (WRX) and feel I grew up a notch. So, just a bit too late, but I may at least take a look at it - nothing wrong with that.
the Corolla will only be a good deal for about one more year, as the old model run runs out. I am sure there will be deals available in early '07, what with the new Civic and brand new Sentra to contend with.
But you can bet that after that the Corolla will no longer be a bargain priced alternative to a subcompact - it will move upscale a bit to match the new Civic and allow the Yaris some breathing room.
I guess early '07 is my window of opportunity, eh?! ;-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Have they officially announced the engines for the Aura? Because I wouldn't assume that the engines they forecast back when it was a concept will be the ones that actually make it in there.
Could be, they decide they need the Aura to siphon off their excess capacity for the Chinese-built 3.4! ;-)
I also wonder how many of the nicest touches in the interior will make it into the production car.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
..The U.S. is the most lucrative market in the world by far - but it has become a dumping ground for every emerging automobile industry in the world. While we basically throw our ports open to various countries and their auto companies and say, "Come on in!" - those same countries add tariffs upon duties to U.S. vehicles in a carefully calculated and orchestrated attempt at destroying any hope of a U.S.-branded product from establishing a foothold in their home markets. The U.S. market amounts to the biggest poker game in the world, except that instead of being one of the key players, our own U.S. manufacturing industries are rapidly being relegated to the sidelines. Every country that can muster a product gets to play "all in" in our game - while this country's leaders stumble around talking about such quaint notions as "free" and "fair" trade, "playing by the rules" and the concept of integrity. And because of our bumpkin-like, "Mr. Smith goes to Washington" demeanor when it comes to dealing with these fundamental trade issues, our government's naively-skewed view of what the world should be has allowed our home market to be turned into some sort of maniacal "Wheel of Fortune" for every country but our own. While Washington is fiddling around with archaically naive trade policies and suggestions as to what the "right" way is for these countries to approach our market, they're gorging at our dinner table with impunity - as our own industries are sentenced to sit at the kids' table in the backyard. As we like to say around here, not good. It's time for tough actions and tough measures from Washington. This country is getting its clock cleaned by the unchecked economic engines of Japan, Inc., China, Inc. and Korea, Inc. And our government's relentless inaction is opening the way for the step-by-step dismantling of a manufacturing sector that was once the envy of the world. It's time for this one-way street to end. (snip)
Washington must get real about the concept of USA, Inc. and start looking out for our own industries. Some people actually think it would be no big deal if this country were to lose most of its manufacturing base, and I feel sorry for them, because they really don't know what they're wishing upon this country when they say that. Once upon a time, there were textbook ideals of a happy economic world that would revel in free and open markets and "fair" trade. That's a nice, idyllic fantasyland to conjure up, but it has nothing to do with what's going on in the world today. We live in a world where countries will take as much of the economic action as they can possibly get their hands on. And for Washington to continue to embrace the notion of "acquiescing" indefinitely to make the world a happier place for everybody is simply nonsensical and detrimental to this country's welfare at this point. A few months ago, I said that the looming crisis that the domestic auto industry is facing due to the unfair trade practices and the manipulation of currencies by its foreign competitors' host countries, combined with this country's growing inability to deal with the health care and pension issues was the "canary in the coal mine" for the rest of industrial America. This isn't a Republican issue or a Democratic issue - it's an American issue - and I grow more convinced by the day that Washington's failure to take definitive action to counteract this accelerating crisis will have catastrophic implications for this country's economic well-being for years to come.
Could be, they decide they need the Aura to siphon off their excess capacity for the Chinese-built 3.4! ;-)
LOL, I wouldn't put anything past GM. If they end up throwing a pushrod v6 with a 4 speed in it, I'll laugh my way over to Honda, Toyota, Mazda, Ford, & VWs dealerships to find something that meets my criteria.
The pics on Saturn's website still look like it will be a good looking car inside and out. Unfortunately, they aren't mentioning the mechanicals. I guess the "hacks", I mean accountants still have time to wipe it from my buy list.
aren't the Equinox/Torrent the only GM offerings that are still getting stuck with the 3.4? If the Aura's supposed to be an upscale car, I'd hope that it would at least have the 3.5 standard, and maybe the 3.9 optional. Or that 3.6 DOHC that gets used in the LaCrosse.
Last I heard, I believe it will get the 3.5 and 3.9. I am not sure whether there will be a 4-cylinder version, but I think they offically cancelled any notion that it might get the DOHC 3.6 you mentioned, strictly reserved for "high feature" cars. Too bad, Saturn customers!
As for the 3.4, I was mostly joking, but who could have seen it coming that GM would take a brand new model (the 'Nox) and throw in the oldest, least competitive engine they have in the stable? So I would not put anything past them. They still have a couple of months to make the final decision as to what engine will go in the Aura, I imagine, and if the GMT900 sales don't go as hoped they may be looking to economize on other new models this year.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Mazda6 is one of them Speed6 wagon would be sweeet. But - they are not UAW cars, are they? I was just making point to Rocky, that my choices do not come from sentiment of pro- or anti-American unionized labor. As long as the final product is in the range, I am not going to reject it based on nameplate, labor source, etc.
I could not care less who and where it was made, as long as it is not stollen and it is done to my satisfaction both feature and qualitywise. It may be tiebreaker if I see products equivalent. Likewise, I do not wishe to be shuved upon some product I don't want/like just because of its origin, or (even worse) be barred from purchase (by tarrifs or bans) from choice.
Wow, that's sad about the Aura. Seemed like a pretty competitive entry, at least the supposed 6-spd Auto will make the cut (or maybe not :surprise: ) There goes the notion that the concept was 95% complete...
Isn't that typical about domestic concepts vs. import? When you see import concept, you know that 90%+ of the stuff will make it to the production in one form or another. Domestic? Oh, yeah great skin, great specs., so what will we see? Same old, same old...
One exception: the Solstice, which as far as I remember stuck fairly close to the concept through all the Lutz promises and successive pre-production models.
But yes, the Aura appears to be getting gutted much as most GM concepts do. You can bet that very cool steering wheel won't be in the production car. However, I wish I had recent info on that model, as the last stuff I remember reading on it was quite a while back.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
But yes, the Aura appears to be getting gutted much as most GM concepts do. You can bet that very cool steering wheel won't be in the production car. However, I wish I had recent info on that model, as the last stuff I remember reading on it was quite a while back.
Where are you getting this info? Everything I've read, mentions the 3.6L w/ 6speed.
While I wouldn't be a bit suprised that GM will offer the 3.5/3.9 v6s in the Aura. I never like to say "never", but I just don't like GMs push-rod v6s. Maybe if they offer the 3.9 with the 6 speed I might be able to look the other way, but that is a big "if".
Comments
2. You claim that before they retired they had been the hardest working, the best educated, the most efficient, the most sophisticated, the cream of crop workers in the planet, arguably even Solar system, so pension is their hard worked money they reportedly deserve.
3. It is their money now so they can do it what they please. There is no clause in their contract saying "it is you money as long as you spend it on our products".
4. Their first obligation is to welfare of their own and their families and as such they have a duty to pursue the product they see best suits them and offers best value.
5. If they see that Accord is such a product, it is their duty (to family) and their free choice (their hard-worked money, remember Rocky?) to buy Accord.
This is regardless of what you, I, or anybody else may think about validity of their choice (i.e. whether Accord is really better) or what is their moral obligation or loyalty. If you like it otherwise, move to Cuba or North Korea, Rocky. That's the country (as was USSR and my own Poland, thank God no more), where there always was somebody else who knew better what was good for others and what was ones duty even at their own time or what they were supposed to spend their money on.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
But the people for whom Electra, Roadmaster, et others bring up posistive images are older; younger potential buyers don't have those associations. They associate with EX, DX, LX, 230, 540, N4, type naming. So the Buick replacement is called "Lucerne" just like Toyota named their larger model after the singer Frankie Avalon.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Yeah they did sign a morale marriage agreement. When you have enough guts to backstab your company and union by buying a non domestic nameplate then you deserve to have you pension, retirement, terminated immediantly. :mad: The UAW and the workers it represents have members trying to work their butts off to keep what they faught for. That also means keeping the company afloat so it can continue to pay it's retirees health insurance, pension at 100%. I'd personally slap a ex-autoworker that worked for the Big 3 for doing such a thing and bragging about it. :mad:
2. You claim that before they retired they had been the hardest working, the best educated, the most efficient, the most sophisticated, the cream of crop workers in the planet, arguably even Solar system, so pension is their hard worked money they reportedly deserve.
I think you are taking what I said WAYout of context. However some of what you said is actually funny. You making a mountain out of a mole hill pal. Neways, yes the majority of UAW workers are very hard working folks. Yes some are college educated, and yes some have unique skills that can only be acquired with alot of "OJT" time. They are a very efficient workforce as a whole. They are loyal to company, country, and care about the good folks of this nation. Their are few bad apples, in every pot.
Those apples should be discarded. :mad:
3. It is their money now so they can do it what they please. There is no clause in their contract saying "it is you money as long as you spend it on our products".
You are correct. However it's a matter of personal morales. Either you got em' or you are a big fat pig that needs to go to the processing plant ! :mad: I have no respect and won't have anything to do with such pigs.
4. Their first obligation is to welfare of their own and their families and as such they have a duty to pursue the product they see best suits them and offers best value.
Well selling out your union and your union brothers and sisters is the exact same as selling out your personal family. If it wasn't for the good contracts and sticking togeather of the UAW and it's members they wouldn't have a pension, health insurance, etc. They'd be a greeter at Wally World, exactly where a trader deserves to retire and spend his last days.
5. If they see that Accord is such a product, it is their duty (to family) and their free choice (their hard-worked money, remember Rocky?) to buy Accord.
I also see it as a duty to run them off the road for being the trader/coward they really are ! Your trying to fire me up this morning.
This is regardless of what you, I, or anybody else may think about validity of their choice (i.e. whether Accord is really better) or what is their moral obligation or loyalty. If you like it otherwise, move to Cuba or North Korea, Rocky. That's the country (as was USSR and my own Poland, thank God no more), where there always was somebody else who knew better what was good for others and what was ones duty even at their own time or what they were supposed to spend their money on.
My relatives found this country, and it should be you that moves back home!!!!!! I guess you lack patriotism or perhaps you might not know what that word means yet ????
I agree Poland is far from a world class established country, they have a populus that's exploited by a corrupt government. I had a good friend from Poland "Warsaw" I used to work beside at Johnson Controls, and he said that's why he came to the states. Well if we keep on this economic trend of outsourcing everything to China, and every other 3rd world country we will be about as well off as Poland, in the not so distant future. Perhaps you don't see it coming ????? Some of us unfortunatly do
Rocky
Rocky
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Rocky
Since they kill 'em off at 30, there's nobody left to drive Buicks! :P
That means no Avalon buyers around here. And I'm noticing, almost no Camry buyers...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That means no Avalon buyers around here. And I'm noticing, almost no Camry buyers...
I wonder why the Japanese companies don't name their vehicles Tokyo, Kyoto, Hokkaido, Nagasaki, and other Japanese name etc., instead of Dakota, Tacoma, Avalon???
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Nv, why would the '88 Park Ave be the best one in my fleet? I consider it my beater car.
Yeah they did sign a morale marriage agreement.
Yep and so did GM, maybe GM should hold up their moral obligation and build a car they want. Its a two way street.
You are correct. However it's a matter of personal morales.
Again its a two way street.
Well selling out your union and your union brothers and sisters is the exact same as selling out your personal family.
No its not, there is a saying that goes "blood is thicker than water". Plus ever sat in an union negotiations? Unions sell out there membership all the time.
I also see it as a duty to run them off the road for being the trader/coward they really are ! Your trying to fire me up this morning.
You see it as your duty to punish people simply because they have a different viewpoint? Did you once belong to the KGB?
I guess you lack patriotism or perhaps you might not know what that word means yet ????
I think it pathetic to question someones patriotism because of their buying choices. IS everything you buy American made? I doubt it.
And BTW when your relatives came here mine most likely greeted them.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
So you don't believe in loyalty to the hand that feeds you. I guess this is american morale ethics by some today. Perhaps that's why we have so many problems in this country. No loyalty to company, co-worker, neighbor, country. It actually makes me sick. I sometimes wished I would of grew up in the day when America was actually "tight" and one another gave a rat about each other.
No its not, there is a saying that goes "blood is thicker than water". Plus ever sat in an union negotiations? Unions sell out there membership all the time.
I guess you'd have to define selling out its members. Yeah when your company is going through some hard times such as the Big 3 are then some members might feel that way. However yes I've been through a few negotiations and haven't expierenced feel that way. However I'm not going to say it doesn't happen. The non-union alternative is fired with no recourse.
I think it pathetic to question someones patriotism because of their buying choices. IS everything you buy American made? I doubt it.
That wasn't a direct response/reply to the poster, but was a response to a retired UAW member, that turned out to be a trader, coward, pig, backstabber, etc. :mad:
And BTW when your relatives came here mine most likely greeted them.
Perhaps we are distant "kin" :P
Rocky
Acquaintance in Tennessee has just gone through this. Had an injury under workmen's comp; employed by another company; problems with inept workman's comp in state; new company dumped him in favor of part-timers with no benefits; no rights under state rules. No wonder Nissan built a plant there; the companies rule and the state departments are pathetic.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
"Why set up a plant in a state with worker rights"?
Rocky
I believe in loyalty, but I also believe that its a two way street. If the "hand that feeds me" isn't being loyal to me why should I to it? Now don't try blaming problems that GM has on GM retirees not buying their product. Its not the lack of loyalty that causes the problems, but rather the problems that cause the lack of loyalty.
I guess you'd have to define selling out its members.
Perfect example was UPS back in the 90's. The union kept the union members from getting a better retirement plan simply because the union would loss control over it.
That wasn't a direct response/reply to the poster, but was a response to a retired UAW member, that turned out to be a trader,
Again don't blame the consumer for GM not producing what the consumer wants. Its not the retirees fault the GM won't produce what he/she wants/needs.
Perhaps we are distant "kin"
I seriously hope not.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
:sick:
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Agree on some of what you had to say. However if your neighbor see's you as a retired UAW member not driving the products that you once built then it would have a drastic effect on the image of the company, thus perhaps you losing your retirement benefits because your company filed bankruptcy. Alot of the vehicles sold in this country are by word of mouth still. However back on GM in particular they have been loyal to its UAW members. GM put food in my mouth, gave me shelter, clothes, and other luxury material things. I owe them my loyalty.
Perfect example was UPS back in the 90's. The union kept the union members from getting a better retirement plan simply because the union would loss control over it.
I having close friends working for UPS, know that's false propoganda put out in the press.
Again don't blame the consumer for GM not producing what the consumer wants. Its not the retirees fault the GM won't produce what he/she wants/needs.
GM doesn't produce as bad of cars as many of you label them to be. Their is no reason why you can't find a product your company makes. :confuse:
Perhaps we are distant "kin"
I seriously hope not.
Well if you are part Norweigan, then :P
Rocky :shades:
Rocky
Rocky
If not that, then my next car will come from the new group of subcompacts just hitting the market, and all of them are in contention except the Rio and maybe the Aveo - I haven't decided on that one yet. But when the time comes (probably about two years out) I will be checking out all the rest of them. It would be nice if Ford's global small car could come here by then too. And Suzuki's new Swift. I would include both of them on the list, although the Suzuki is a long shot because of the non-existent dealer network.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
My basic requirements are wagon/hatchback body, manual transmission, good fast engine and (preferrably but could waive that) AWD.
If Cadillac manufactured manual wagon CTS, I would test it, but they don't.
If Ford had manual wagon Fusion with V6, I would try it, but they don't. Heck, even 4-cylinder would be worth trying.
If Chevy offered Malibu Maxx with manual, I would at least sit inside.
If Dodge came with Magnum manual (even V6), I would give it a try, too.
So, Rocky, before you send your death squad to my house, please point a car from UAW that would satisfy those criteria and I will be happy to give it a chance.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
BTW, Some of you guys need to brush up on your English.
"Morale" is what you inspire in people.
"Morals" are those internal guiding principles of right and wrong.
A "trader" is found on the floor of the NYSE.
Benedict Arnold was a "traitor".
I know many that would disagree with that.
I having close friends working for UPS, know that's false propoganda put out in the press.
Having seen both plans (as well as also knowing people who worked at UPS) I can tell you it wasn't false propaganda.
GM doesn't produce as bad of cars as many of you label them to be.
No they don't, but for the most part they don't have the "WOW" factor. I mean who in their right mind wants to be seen in an Aztec?
Well if you are part Norweigan, then
Lets see there are two types of people in the world, Scandinavians and those who wish they were. There are two types of Scandinavians in this world, Danes and those who wish they were. :P
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I think Ford wants you to try out an Edge when they get here later this year. :-)
The Maxx is due to expire entirely this year or next, isn't it?
The A3 is sweet, I almost bought one when I drove it. The Legacy GT looks real nice too, but it is bigger of course. I would be surprised if you bought any of those over the A3 once you drive it, unless you get the Legacy.
And of course, the five-door GTI will be here this year, which is just a less expensive VW version of the A3...something to consider. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Hyundai Accent - have good experiences with the make, good price with lots of options. Also waiting to see the hybrid.
Chevy Aveo - Rock bottom price with no frills but its only for a 12 mile commute.
Some other possibilities
Scion xA
Saturn Ion
Mazda 3
But its a few years to go so who knows what will be out there when I am ready.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
OMG I'm also part Danish :surprise: Norweigan, Danish, German, lol. However your reply was most humourous.
Rocky
"you see that I just picked a Japanese car over a chevy" :surprise:
However their is a hidden secret....
Rocky
What do you want ???? A Wagon ???? How much do you want to spend ???? Is a SUV ok ?????
Rocky
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Great looks (IMO), great looking interior (IMO), and a competitive powertrain (FINALLY). Assuming the car drives as nice as it looks (big assumption here with GMs reputation, but I'm being optimistic that it will perform well overall), the only thing that might actually keep me from buying one is availability and of course price. We might need to purchase a vehicle by August and the Aura's may still be hard to get that soon.
Yes, a midsized/"midsized-" wagon with low CG, manual transmission, and decent/high power. What's so strange about that? I want driving capabilities of sporty sedan and extra accommodatios/cargo space of rear hatch. All I need and want is to get sporty car, to which I can put a box of newly bought TV or other medium-sized box. I don't tow, I don't haul people, I like to play with the shifter, I like to go fast, whenever conditions allow, I like good cornering even on wet surface. I like to put my bike on a trailer hitch mounted rack behind my car. I am single, have resources for one vehicle and want "all in one" package with one small extra requirement, which is manual transmission. If I need a truck, I rent one for a day (or ask a friend who has one and is willing to help). If my folks come once every five years, I rent a minivan.
Only sporty wagons can offer it. Only foreign companies understand that mindset, as everywhere esle in the world it is not so odd to actually wanting it all. It's not my fault that in this country people cannot comprehend that you can have it all and do not need a roadster for good driving or a tank for good cargo space.
SUV IS NOT ACCEPTABLE (to me) - too big, too high CG, too poor handling, no manuals available. Period. The closest to what I may want in Nissan Murano (no manual) or BMW X3 (manual available, but not so hot inside).
I do not say others are wrong with their choices - buy whatever you want or like. Let me buy whatever I want and like.
If Ford/GM/Chrysler offer a UAW vehicle that fits my description, I am not going to refuse it.
By the way - new Caliber, esp. SRT-4, may join the list. Lets just wait and see what they actually offer at the time of my shopping. It may already be too small - I have a car that size/image right now (WRX) and feel I grew up a notch. So, just a bit too late, but I may at least take a look at it - nothing wrong with that.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
But you can bet that after that the Corolla will no longer be a bargain priced alternative to a subcompact - it will move upscale a bit to match the new Civic and allow the Yaris some breathing room.
I guess early '07 is my window of opportunity, eh?! ;-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Could be, they decide they need the Aura to siphon off their excess capacity for the Chinese-built 3.4! ;-)
I also wonder how many of the nicest touches in the interior will make it into the production car.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I think it's called a Mazda6 wagon (though 220hp might not be enough for you...is there going to be a Speed6 wagon?).
Free trade? How about fair trade?
..The U.S. is the most lucrative market in the world by far - but it has become a dumping ground for every emerging automobile industry in the world. While we basically throw our ports open to various countries and their auto companies and say, "Come on in!" - those same countries add tariffs upon duties to U.S. vehicles in a carefully calculated and orchestrated attempt at destroying any hope of a U.S.-branded product from establishing a foothold in their home markets.
The U.S. market amounts to the biggest poker game in the world, except that instead of being one of the key players, our own U.S. manufacturing industries are rapidly being relegated to the sidelines. Every country that can muster a product gets to play "all in" in our game - while this country's leaders stumble around talking about such quaint notions as "free" and "fair" trade, "playing by the rules" and the concept of integrity. And because of our bumpkin-like, "Mr. Smith goes to Washington" demeanor when it comes to dealing with these fundamental trade issues, our government's naively-skewed view of what the world should be has allowed our home market to be turned into some sort of maniacal "Wheel of Fortune" for every country but our own.
While Washington is fiddling around with archaically naive trade policies and suggestions as to what the "right" way is for these countries to approach our market, they're gorging at our dinner table with impunity - as our own industries are sentenced to sit at the kids' table in the backyard. As we like to say around here, not good.
It's time for tough actions and tough measures from Washington. This country is getting its clock cleaned by the unchecked economic engines of Japan, Inc., China, Inc. and Korea, Inc. And our government's relentless inaction is opening the way for the step-by-step dismantling of a manufacturing sector that was once the envy of the world.
It's time for this one-way street to end. (snip)
Washington must get real about the concept of USA, Inc. and start looking out for our own industries. Some people actually think it would be no big deal if this country were to lose most of its manufacturing base, and I feel sorry for them, because they really don't know what they're wishing upon this country when they say that. Once upon a time, there were textbook ideals of a happy economic world that would revel in free and open markets and "fair" trade. That's a nice, idyllic fantasyland to conjure up, but it has nothing to do with what's going on in the world today.
We live in a world where countries will take as much of the economic action as they can possibly get their hands on. And for Washington to continue to embrace the notion of "acquiescing" indefinitely to make the world a happier place for everybody is simply nonsensical and detrimental to this country's welfare at this point.
A few months ago, I said that the looming crisis that the domestic auto industry is facing due to the unfair trade practices and the manipulation of currencies by its foreign competitors' host countries, combined with this country's growing inability to deal with the health care and pension issues was the "canary in the coal mine" for the rest of industrial America.
This isn't a Republican issue or a Democratic issue - it's an American issue - and I grow more convinced by the day that Washington's failure to take definitive action to counteract this accelerating crisis will have catastrophic implications for this country's economic well-being for years to come.
imidazol97, "Buying American Cars: What Does It Mean?" #1327, 22 Feb 2006 11:05 am
There are some there who feel there is no problem with trade practices.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Nippon you make some valid points.
Could be, they decide they need the Aura to siphon off their excess capacity for the Chinese-built 3.4! ;-)
LOL, I wouldn't put anything past GM. If they end up throwing a pushrod v6 with a 4 speed in it, I'll laugh my way over to Honda, Toyota, Mazda, Ford, & VWs dealerships to find something that meets my criteria.
The pics on Saturn's website still look like it will be a good looking car inside and out. Unfortunately, they aren't mentioning the mechanicals. I guess the "hacks", I mean accountants still have time to wipe it from my buy list.
As for the 3.4, I was mostly joking, but who could have seen it coming that GM would take a brand new model (the 'Nox) and throw in the oldest, least competitive engine they have in the stable? So I would not put anything past them. They still have a couple of months to make the final decision as to what engine will go in the Aura, I imagine, and if the GMT900 sales don't go as hoped they may be looking to economize on other new models this year.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I could not care less who and where it was made, as long as it is not stollen and it is done to my satisfaction both feature and qualitywise. It may be tiebreaker if I see products equivalent. Likewise, I do not wishe to be shuved upon some product I don't want/like just because of its origin, or (even worse) be barred from purchase (by tarrifs or bans) from choice.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
But yes, the Aura appears to be getting gutted much as most GM concepts do. You can bet that very cool steering wheel won't be in the production car. However, I wish I had recent info on that model, as the last stuff I remember reading on it was quite a while back.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Where are you getting this info? Everything I've read, mentions the 3.6L w/ 6speed.
While I wouldn't be a bit suprised that GM will offer the 3.5/3.9 v6s in the Aura. I never like to say "never", but I just don't like GMs push-rod v6s. Maybe if they offer the 3.9 with the 6 speed I might be able to look the other way, but that is a big "if".
The 6 is built in the Flat Rock, Michigan plant that used to build Probes and MX-6s back in the day. UAW all the way.