GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda...Who will sell you your next car?

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Comments

  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    My gut tells me the Fusion will have good resale, assuming Ford has the cojones to not dump thousands of them in the rental market. The Five Hundred already has good resale, and I was astonished how many people were checking it out at the auto show.

    Your gut is correct. Ford is betting heavily on the Fusion, the car is reportedly hot, while the company claims that it will make few fleet sales. Ford will be adding a third shift to its plant in Mexico in order to build more.

    However, the Five Hundred is already being cited as a failure, with Ford claiming that going forward, it will avoid "European styling" in the US market based in part on this flop. (I personally don't believe that the Five Hundred looks very "European", but the folks in Dearborn want future designs to emulate styling cues from the Mustang, instead.)
  • pernaperna Member Posts: 521
    I'm a little late to this Civic/Focus comparison, but judging from those pics in post 426, I don't really see the Focus as being a generation behind. Now it might just be a camera trick, but the Civic looks wider inside.

    It's not so much a camera trick, as the angle of the dash. I sat inside the '06 Civic at the auto show, and there is a weird "cab forward" type effect going on. It's a bit like sitting on a minivan, actually, but lower to the ground.

    I prefer the current-gen Focus interior, myself. The controls are more intuitive, and overall it just looks better.
  • pernaperna Member Posts: 521
    I am stuck though because the Honda, Toyota, Infinity, etc make the most bland, dull, boring vehicles that I simply could not stand to own one - even though they are probably well built and reliable.

    You can say a lot of things about Nissan/Infiniti, but they are *not* boring cars for the most part. Go drive a Maxima, Altima 3.5, or Infiniti G35. They will blow your hair back.
  • pernaperna Member Posts: 521
    However, the Five Hundred is already being cited as a failure, with Ford claiming that going forward, it will avoid "European styling" in the US market based in part on this flop. (I personally don't believe that the Five Hundred looks very "European", but the folks in Dearborn want future designs to emulate styling cues from the Mustang, instead.)

    I think the Five Hundred looks like one of Audi's designs they threw away.

    That said, I will seriously consider one for my next car once they throw the Fusion's front grille on there, put in factory satellite radio, and put the 3.5L engine in. All this is supposedly happening by the '08 model year.

    I don't really care so much about how a car looks on the outside. I'm more into what the interior looks like, and how the car performs. A buddy of mine has a Five Hundred, and it's a really nice ride. I can put in Sat Radio myself, and even get over the dull grille, but the lack of guts just flat-out kills the car for me.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I think you're onto something with the Fusion-like grille on the Five Hundred. That alone would improve the car's appearnce exponentially. It would also give Ford sedans a family resemblance. I wonder how a Fusion grill would look on a Crown Vic? I wish they'd just dump the aging Crown Vic for something like the 427 concept. Yeah! Baby! Yeah!
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    How is GM going to compete in the entry level cars like the Civic and built it as good, but price it similar ????

    The problem I see is that GM is not competing in ANY car segments (except Corvette, Solstice). They aren't building a good car to compete against Civic, etc. They aren't building good smaller upscale cars either (compete against BMW 3, Acura TSX, VW Jetta, Audi A4, etc.).

    I've often wondered, given that GM is losing a lot of money, why don't they just say "what the heck, let's build such a good car that people will forever change their opinions about GM". They could build a true Accord/Camry killer, work on it until it is better than those cars, and then price it competitively. Go ahead an lose money on it. It would create such a positive perception that it might be worth it anyway. Yet nobody - Ford, GM, Chrsyler -- does this.
  • jlawrence01jlawrence01 Member Posts: 1,757
    Your gut is correct. Ford is betting heavily on the Fusion, the car is reportedly hot, while the company claims that it will make few fleet sales

    They can afford to make few fleet sales as the "brand new" 2007 Ford Taurus has been introduced to rental fleets. No kidding.
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    I've often wondered, given that GM is losing a lot of money, why don't they just say "what the heck, let's build such a good car that people will forever change their opinions about GM".

    Because it's simply so much easier to:
    -Blame the Japanese (They don't look like us, so that's easy)
    -Blame the Koreans (Ditto)
    -Blame the Germans (OK, so they do look like us, but we'll blame them, anyway)
    -Blame the economy (Always a good one)
    -Blame the yen (Never mind that the yen has strengthened against the dollar over the last few years, we can conveniently ignore that)
    -Blame the workers (Because otherwise, we might have to blame the people who manage them)
    -Blame the customers (Apparently, Americans just ain't smart enough to buy more Cobalts.)
    -Blame trade barriers (because without them, the Japanese with $6 per gallon gas and narrow roads would just love to buy wide Impalas with steering wheels on the wrong side of the car)
    -Blame Car and Driver (Media Conspiracy)
    -Blame Road and Track (More Media Conspiracy)
    -Blame Motor Trend (Still More Media Conspiracy)
    -Blame Automobile Magazine (and more...)
    -Blame Autoweek (and more...)
    -Blame Consumer Reports (Damn hippies)
    -Blame JD Power (Never mind that they are PAID by the automakers to produce their reports)
    -Blame Edmunds (Oops!)

    (Feel free to bring up any other scapegoats who I may have forgotten to include.)

    No point in blaming the poor designs, lower reliability, lack of desirability, the bad corporate acquisitions, low resale values, the rental car stigma or any of the real problems that impact product demand.

    If they actually acknowledged those problems and fixed them, then management might actually have to roll some heads and take responsibility for what they hath wrought. Perhaps they should have 12-Step programs for automakers -- the first step is admitting that you have a problem...
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    You are right, I've been buying 05 Impalas for $9000 at the auction lately. That's about $2000 less than a comparable Elantra.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Funny, there is a comercial on TV here that has some sales guy with an 05 Impala. First he says he'll sell it for $9000. Smashes the rear window out "don't like that price? I'll sell it to you for $7000". Samshes the front window out. "Don't like that?" - throws a lighter on the hood and the front of the car goes up in flames". "I'll give it to you for free!"...

    Kind of an amusing commercial but really shoots down any kind of value that the Impala may have had in the first place... Oh he also advertised a new 06' Impala for LS for 22k. What'll it be worth next year :surprise:
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I know Rocky, but he has a point. I know some UAW members. All I ever here from them is how management is screwing them. NEVER ONCE have I heard one say they need to build a better car cheaper to survive. When they retire, to a man, they have bought Asian cars to drive.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Allendale, I used to drive through their to pick the pops up from Delphi, Coopersville when my car was in the shop and I borrowed his. Caledonia, is a very nice place to live. G.R. even in this recession is still growing very fast and is connecting up to Caledonia, Hudsonville, Zeeland, Holland, etc. Those city's are basically becoming part of "Greater" Grand Rapids and thus are suburbs. ;)

    Do you know where Pullman, Mi is ????? I graduated from Fennville High 11-12, but also went to Wyoming Park High. (K-10)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    When they retire, to a man, they have bought Asian cars to drive.

    I've honestly have never heard of retired UAW members that have worked for GM ever buy Asian cars. I really question the truth in that statement !!!! :confuse:

    Rocky
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    During my college internship at a GM distribution center, I saw plenty of Toyotas, Nissans, etc. in the UAW labor employee's parking lot.

    On the other hand, the only non-GM car that was in the management parking lot was mine. (And it was clear that anyone in full-time management would be expected to drive a GM car to work, I only got away with it because I was a student trainee.)
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    There is a union hall right across the street from where I work. Most of the cars parked there are U.S. makes, few foreign ones.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    - Blame NAFTA (if we kept the Malibu et al. assembly line here, it would be even more expensive so it could steal even more potential BMW buyers).
    - Blame globalization (otherwise, we would get even more expensive steel without it, which would push their price even higher)
    - Blame World Bank and International Monetary Fund (just for sake of it - everybody blames them for everything possible including floods and droughts).
    - Blame Katrina, Rita, and Wilma (what? everybody says they are to blame, so can we).
    - Blame Bush or Clinton, whatever your affiliation is.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    - Blame NAFTA (if we kept the Malibu et al. assembly line here, it would be even more expensive so it could steal even more potential BMW buyers).
    - Blame globalization (otherwise, we would get even more expensive steel without it, which would push their price even higher)
    - Blame World Bank and International Monetary Fund (just for sake of it - everybody blames them for everything possible including floods and droughts).
    - Blame Katrina, Rita, and Wilma (what? everybody says they are to blame, so can we).
    - Blame Bush or Clinton, whatever your affiliation is.


    Excellent. Thanks for the outstanding additions, this should help get GM through another couple of quarters of losses!
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Well that's hard for me to believe, but whatever.

    Rocky
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,792
    scenario: I'm a manager at GM. I can get a sweet deal on a GM vehicle, or buy a competitor's brand.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    I'm a manager at GM. I can get a sweet deal on a GM vehicle, or buy a competitor's brand.

    There was more to it than that. It was more about the expectation that management should engage in flagwaving for GM than it was for the employee discount.

    The UAW guys didn't seem to care, either way. I was surprised to see Japanese cars in their lot and asked some of the UAW guys about it, and none of them seemed to be particularly worked up about it. As for the managers, most of them were just playing along.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,792
    i support the company i work for. it only makes sense. well, at least to me.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,691
    I find that hard to believe, based on my observations in this part of the country. NV's area may be different. But here in Midwest, doesn't happen much. Retirees have supported what the union members have been forced to assemble by the GM management.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I actually have never seen it happen at 3 GM & Delphi plants I' visited on many occassions.

    Rocky
  • jefferygjefferyg Member Posts: 418
    One thing to keep in mind is that the UAW has workers in Honda and Toyota plants around our great land as well as on Chevy and Ford assembly lines. The union workers are in my observation often much more loyal to the union than to the company. The managers however, usually have to give up union ties, which means they have no protection from big brother.

    BTW, you can't blame the union for inferior products. They just build em, they don't design them.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    agree with you pal. However their is only one UAW Toyota plant, and that's in California where they build the Tacoma and Carolla. Honda has no UAW or unionized plants pal.

    Rocky
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    "BTW, you can't blame the union for inferior products. They just build em, they don't design them."

    Exactly. It isn't the unions fault most GM interiors are cheap and chintzy. Isn't the unions fault if GM is enamored with pushrod engines and outdated 4-spd trannys'. And it isn't the unions fault that Red tag fire sales are implemented to move mediocrity from the dealer lots... ;)
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    It isn't the unions fault most GM interiors are cheap and chintzy. Isn't the unions fault if GM is enamored with pushrod engines and outdated 4-spd trannys'. And it isn't the unions fault that Red tag fire sales are implemented to move mediocrity from the dealer lots...

    Yet it's supposedly your fault that you wouldn't want to spend your hard-earned money to own such a car. Imagine that: the consumer gets to take the blame for rejecting inferior products. Very convenient.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    I know. If people like us would just stop being so damn satisfied with non-GM products, the world would be a much better place. :blush:
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    That's the way it is - the biggest anti-capitalist (anti-free choice of product, anti-market) are forces of status quo regardless of their origin, whether it is so-called labor movements or big corporation. As Bill Gates once said - he could be put out of business by a kid a garage, therefore, he will make darn sure no such kids or garages exist anymore the moment he established his dominant position in the market.

    All those slogans about protecting worker etc. are basically smoke screen for turning USA into USSA (United Soviet States of America), or at least into total welfare state (for both corporations and labor).

    As it is easier to organize workers or businesses than consumers, the "representation" groups will do basically everything to obscure basic basic truth that we are "employees" or "manufacturers" only for less than 1/4 of our life (8-12 hours a day between ages of say 18 and 65, many much less than that), the rest of the time, we are consumers.

    As much as we would like to get MORE MONEY, we actually are better off by PAYING LESS or receiving BETTER PRODUCT, i.e. reward of being "taken advantage" for 1/4 of our life to consume the fruits during remaining 3/4.

    Of course, like in all games, everybody would like to get ahead at cost of others, hence strikes, corporate welfare, political pressure, etc., as an attempt of changing rules in ones favor at cost of others. Companies want subsidies, labor wants special treatment, etc.

    Basic dream of both UAW and GM management is the same: get toothpaste at discount and make toothpaste manufacturers (or toy manufacturers, or barbers, or you name it) pay full price for their products. Everything else is just a smoke screen.

    I don't blame them for trying, but the role of government and us all is not to buy all that gargle and basically go for better product as we see it. For that I can still thank both republicans and democrats that despite efforts of some, we still do not "have to" buy GM/Ford or whatever.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • pernaperna Member Posts: 521
    I think you're onto something with the Fusion-like grille on the Five Hundred. That alone would improve the car's appearnce exponentially. It would also give Ford sedans a family resemblance. I wonder how a Fusion grill would look on a Crown Vic? I wish they'd just dump the aging Crown Vic for something like the 427 concept. Yeah! Baby! Yeah!

    You know what boat I missed out on? The Marauder. When it came out I couldn't afford it, and Ford never put the money into it to give it the guts it deserved. Just a bit more horsepower...
  • pernaperna Member Posts: 521
    Do you know where Pullman, Mi is ????? I graduated from Fennville High 11-12, but also went to Wyoming Park High. (K-10)

    I've heard of Fennville (I think Allendale used to play them), but not Pullman. I went K-12 Allendale Public, then went to GVSU. After graduation, I had to move out of Allendale just for a change of scenery. :)
  • ubbermotorubbermotor Member Posts: 307
    They just build em, they don't design them

    I'm not arguing with your point, but build quality can have just as much impact as design quality. Have you ever heard of a recall for an improperly tightened whatever? Americans have been more accused of poor build quality than poor design. Have you ever seen the movie "Gung-ho"? Japanease managers yelling and Union workers for slapping things together. (I found it interesting that the cars were Fiats)
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Do you think the Big builds a Quality Car, Truck, SUV ??????

    Just curious......

    Rocky
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    Depends on your definition of quality...# of repairs over X miles, cost of repairs over X miles, squeaks, rattles, "feel" of interior, etc...
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Well as good as ya'lls beloved Toyota, Honda products.

    Rocky

    P.S. all factors
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Infiniti is bland??? I don't think so - on the rest of the Asian cars, I pretty much agree. The Infinitis of today are striking. You may not care for the design, they look a lot like the new Cadillacs, but they're not dull. Is the quality there? I think Nissan is about up to GM quality now. That's a step backward from their past. The French have really helped them sell cars, but at the expense of reliability.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Lemko - the best car in your fleet, IMO, is the 88 Park Avenue......
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Believe it, Imidazo - lots of retired GM & Ford UAW pensioners retire in Vegas, it's warm and sunny here. Most of them are in Hondas and Yotas, but to a person, NONE of them are driving GM or Ford cars today. There may be some, but I don't know them, nor have met them.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I do. I think CAdillacs are pretty good now - just don't like their design and HATE putting 6 Cylinder motors in an STS. That's just wrong.

    I like the Colorado - however, my nephew has one, and the spare the truck comes with is a size smaller than the ground tires, and when applied to the front end in the case of a flat, it ruins the front transfer case in 30 miles. Complaints to the dealer will only get you, "well, that's the way they're shipped to us. Nothing we can do for ya, except fix the truck." After it happened the second time, Matt just went to Discount, and bought 5 new tires, all the same size.

    The Corvette is great for the money.

    The Impala isn't bad - though not very high tech, it's nice to drive.

    Buicks seem to work well - but they have become worse than Oldsmobile in cache. I just couldn't drive one, and 10 years ago, I wanted one. What's with dumping all the heritage names anyway? GM didn't learn anything from Olds?
    "Not your Father's Oldsmobile" absolutely killed the brand, because it was Dad's Olds that we all liked!

    And Buick needs a Minivan? Paaalllllese.

    Saturn - what the heck is that here for now? It's just an uglier version of Chevrolet, IMO.

    I like GMC trucks - but Fords are better designed, IMO.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,691
    >Buick needs a Minivan? Paaalllllese.

    We agree.

    >, because it was Dad's Olds that we all liked!

    Agreed. And I think several had said GM could resurrect the Buick with a hot new Special like the 55-56 models. I saw a new Lucerne in what looked like a strong, dark blue going across a parking lot. I had to figure out what car it was. It looked foreign but neat. The large wheels with chrome spokes really set it off. What does it take for the Northstar and the powerful image to change the total perception of the car so it doesn't become an Oldsmobile and disappear?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I'm not sure if I buy the ex-UAW employees buying hoyota story. :D

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    And Buick needs a Minivan? Paaalllllese.

    They did, well kinda....How bout the Enclave ????? It's a looker and is better designed, engineered, and will cost less than a Lexus alternative. I personally don't want a minivan in the Buick line-up. Ok maybe a crossover like the Rendevous. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I saw a new Lucerne in what looked like a strong, dark blue going across a parking lot. I had to figure out what car it was. It looked foreign but neat. The large wheels with chrome spokes really set it off. What does it take for the Northstar and the powerful image to change the total perception of the car so it doesn't become an Oldsmobile and disappear?

    I look at the Lucerne as a better Park Avenue, Lesabre, Bonneville GXP, Aurora, Mixed into ONE awesome reliable quality car. Heck on the CXS you can get heated winshield washer fluid to go with your Latte or Starbucks. :D

    Rocky
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    What does it take to improve Buick's image? Well, for one thing, it wasn't that bad at all! Nobody wants to sell cars to old fogies - but the old fogies have money, and new old fogies are made EVERY DAY! They die off, but they are replenished - a fact every marketing dept seems to miss. When Olds was murdered, half the customers went to Buick, half to Mercury and the other half went to Avalon. Great move. Take you most popular brand, change it entirely. Buick did very well after Olds' died. So, now they change it entirely! What I'm saying is I HATE the new Buick names..... Chevrolet has had great success with their Heritage Names. So has Ford, Chrysler, Dodge, so why on earth would they kill Great names like Regal, Century, LeSabre, Park Avenue! IMO, they should have brought back Roadmaster and Electra too. Lucerne, LaCross, repel me. What I liked about Buick is now gone. The Lucerne may be the best Buick in a long time - but with that name, it has no chance with me.

    Bill Ford isn't the brightest bulb in the pack - But GM's alleged strategy is moronic. AND, they keep doing it!
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Buy the story or don't, Rockylee - it's absolutely true. I'm not a domestic hater at all. 2 of my 3 cars are Fords. In fact, it baffles the crud out of me how someone can drive their Accord to the bank to cash their GM pension check..... I couldn't do it.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Buy the story or don't, Rockylee - it's absolutely true. I'm not a domestic hater at all. 2 of my 3 cars are Fords. In fact, it baffles the crud out of me how someone can drive their Accord to the bank to cash their GM pension check..... I couldn't do it.

    No kidding, nothing like cutting your own throat. If GM has retirees purchasing anything but GM products, they should loose there coveted benefits.

    When I lived near Kansas City, I had a retired GM worker who lived a few houses down from me. He did have all GM products in the driveway, as he should have.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Being impressed by heated windshield washer nozzles on a car starting above $30K might be part of the problem! :-P

    Seriously, I would expect all those little doodads and more on a car listing near $35 grand, about the sticker of your average Lucerne CXS. Or would that be $40 grand?

    Hey, how come no-one has mentioned VW as their next car yet? :-)

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    nvbanker,

    Come-on pal.....Regal, Century, is a name associated with Junk-Yard, or pile of crap. Electra is a cool name but was the last Buick Electra ?

    The Lucerne may be the best Buick in a long time - but with that name, it has no chance with

    I can't believe the name of a car would kjeep you from owning one. Are you sure you even like the Buick brand. :confuse: Lesabre and Park Avenue(sorry lemko) have OLD FOGIE written all over it. Lucerne is something fresh and atleast it's not a Letter and Number car. ;)

    Roadmaster just sends me images of a big wagon with faux wood down the doors.....Yuk!.......

    Bill Ford isn't the brightest bulb in the pack - But GM's alleged strategy is moronic. AND, they keep doing it!

    Well we will see where GM is in 5 years vs. Ford :P

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    They should be "beat up" + have their pensions and insurance canceled immediantly. :mad:

    I would be upset if I really saw something like that !!!!
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Lucerne CX Base MSRP $25,990*

    Lucerne CXL Base MSRP $27,990*

    Lucerne CXS Base MSRP $34,990*

    Fully loaded minus Navigation is $37,435.00

    I'm not sure if Navigation is available yet or not but it's not showing up as a option on the Buick website yet.

    BTW- For ya'll that want a Buick minivan isn't the Terazza a van ????

    Rocky
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