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i love my '02 eb, but have the itch for a new one. based on what is available, forget about it.
True, but Volvo is actually in good shape. It is the only profitable PAG member and one of the few profitable Ford subsidiaries. The sales decline (following record sales in 2003 and 2004 with the release of the XC90) is due simply to aging models. The heart of the line-up - the S60, V70, and XC70 - have been in-market for over 5 years and the S80 is 8 years old.
Volvo is releasing 5 new models in the next 18 months, starting with the new C70, whose initial production is already sold out on pre-orders. Next up is the C30, followed by the new S80, V70 and S60. Volvo is on the right track.
A new Sport Trac was just introduced in L.A. or Detroit so they at least have some worthy competition for Honda come later this year.
The Freestyle has never been on the chopping block IIRC. It looks like it will disappear as a Ford but be re-born exclusively as a Mercury (the Magellen I believe it's named). Then the minivans will die a deserved death. Mercury does not have a version of the Edge slated for production as of yet either.
We also have to remember that the Fusion WILL get AWD this fall for MY07 as well as any other upgrades Ford has in mind. The hybrid version should follow shortly. Even Toyota and Honda don't offer AWD in their mid-size sedans and that includes the '07 Camry. Give me AWD over stability control, in a car, any day.
Ford could have done better with a couple of their cars on release but they are upgrading most of them in a short period of time therafter which deserves some praise.
I saw fusion upclose and it still has ways to go before it can match the size, fit & finish and overall refinement of camry. Dont get me wrong.. I am not trying to bash fusion but just giving my opinion...
Dash had cheap plastic and not many soft touch materials. Gaps were large and rear seat was not as comfortable as camry's. Also rear floor is not flat either. Fusion disappointed me since it looks and feels so nineties... too late IMO. Design both inside and outside is not cohesive and appealing.
I won't bash the Camry then either.
As for the size, I currently drive a 2004 Mazda6 and it's plenty big for our family of four so the Fusion, being a stretched Mazda6, should be plenty big for any family too. An inch here and there doesn't make that much difference to me especially if the car handles like a sports car and puts a smile on my face. I understand that most people look at the numbers and decide based on them, but I bet none of them are smiling every day while they drive to work.
There really is too much talk about an extra inch or two and a few extra HP these days. FWD cars can have too much HP. Just ask anyone who owns an Altima V6.
How is Ford any worse off than GM, leadfoot? Ford has launched an extremely successful new F-150 recently, The Mustang is an unqualified barnstorming success, and has (once again, I may add) spawned a resurgence of the pony car, with Dodge feebly bringing back a Charger poeser, now the Challenger is coming. The Challenger only lasted 5 total years the first time, with the 1970 being the only year they sold well. So, now GM is bringing back a 70sish Camaro.... But GM has just launched their entirely new full sized SUV line - exactly when SUV's started to tank. Now, IMO, THAT'S a mess. Billions invested - meager sales - Billions in debt - Returement and heath benefits out of control - too many lines of cars - too many dealers -
Ok, so Ford needs to get their new engine out. Agreed. But the Fusion & pals is out and a hit. They have started getting cars out - just when cars became popular again. Ford has always been able to turn the corner faster than the GM elephant can, so they are less suseptible to timing woes. I'm sorry, but I just don't see how Ford is worse off than GM. Plus, don't forget, Bill Ford (not that I think he's all that smart BTW), can personally afford to buy back ALL of the Ford preferred stock, and run the place as a non-public, family owned company again. Literally. So, my bet is that Ford will not fold faster than GM. But I don't think GM will fold either. More likely that Ford & GM would merge or something like that, or GM should file BK, and bust their obligations and union contracts, so they can survive. Anyway, that's how I see it.
Replies to this message
The disappointment was the Zephyr. The display model in Harrisburg had EVERY body panel misaligned. It was embarrassing. Completely unacceptable for a luxury car - even an entry-level one.
At the Philadelphia show, a gentleman asked what I thought of the Zephyr. I replied, "I really like the Fusion, but the Zephyr looks far too much like the Fusion and Milan, and the 3.0 engine is not competitive in the near luxury class." He just smiled and said, "I agree."
It is telling that in William Clay Ford, Jr.'s "Way Forward" plan, he specifically said that Lincoln will be the big gun under the Lincoln Mercury banner. Which tells me that Lincoln will become "cheap luxury," and its lineup expanded. Mercury will become the red-headed stepchild, if it even survives. Kind of letdown for the marque that gave us the K-Series Lincolns of the 1930s, the original Zephyr and Continental, the suicide-door Lincolns of the 1960s and the Continental Marks III and IV.
A Lincoln-Mazda dealer combination would be good for both brands...no overlap between Lincoln and Mercury, and a bigger dealer group for Mazda. Whether this happens remains to be seen.
Lexus IS350
Nissan Altima SE-R (6-cyl)
Honda Accord sedan (6-cyl)
Ford Fusion (6-cyl)
Chevrolet Impala
Hyundai Sonata
Most likely my next car will indeed be the IS350. Mainly because my current 2002 IS300 has been as close to flawless as a man can expect regarding build quality and reliability. But each of the six cars listed above appeal to me quite a bit. I would be surprised if any of these six would turn out to be a complete waste of my money. However, you never know with automobiles.
Ron M.
As for who will sell me my next car - probably either Honda or Ford, provided the Edge drives as nice as it looks. Our current vehicles are a 2003 Honda Accord EX sedan and a 2005 Ford Focus SE sedan, and we don't have any major complaints about either one.
I don't doubt the Fusion and Milan have some misaligned panels and I too have seen them on Camrys and Accords. No manufacturer is perfect. My 2004 Mazda6 has outstanding build quality inside and out (not perfect either). Since it's a second MY copy maybe Hermosillo just needs some time to work out a few build bugs and those gaps between panels will disappear. Then again, maybe Mr. Mays made the sheet metal a little too agressive for the Mazda6 chassis. :surprise:
Only thing I'd worry about concerning the Escape is that it's a little dated. Neither the outside nor the inside looks good enough next to some of the newer entries (the Rav4 and that Suzuki, namely). But I'd have to say the same about Honda's entry in the segment (the current CR-V is as old as the Escape now).
It seems to me that when compared to GM, Ford is taking bigger steps to turn things around. Bolder looking products along with some actual company changes makes Ford seem like maybe, just maybe it is getting a chance at surviving. I don't tend to look at ford products really as I'm a guy who owns 3 Hondas and usually prefers GM products/styling.
The biggest let down for me was the 2007 Tahoe. I love everything about it really, except that they completely omitted the flat folding third row seat, which I'm sure other people besides me, want in an SUV. It doesn't even have to be fancy Powerfold or anything, I could've been perfectly fine with a manual folding seat but even that option isn't there. The interior is awesome looking, exterior is handsome, and love the GM powertrains. Oh well, they'll probably end up adding one in eventually after several years, then again by that time I might be able to get one.
The Expedition went to an independent rear suspension around 2003, which made it easy to design a fold-flat third seat. I think that's also why they were able to put a fold-flat third seat in the Explorer starting in '02.
Yes the rear seat can be removed. Then you have the nice clamps in the back sitting there, plus the third row seat would get a little dirty if you had to store it outside of the vehicle all the time.
Based on my positive experiences with Honda products, she most likely will end up with the TL (6-speed, NAV, Redondo Red
I have half considered replacing my Caravan. My only complaint with it is that it handles like what it is, a FWD van. A Dodge Magnum R/T AWD with the tow package would be perfect. The SRT doesn't come with AWD, and with cylinder deactivation the RT's Hemi gets better milage than the sixes. A person could easily spend more money on an SUV with worse milage, handling and towing capacity.
I've been told by my wife that my little coupe needs to go away. I told her sure, I'll trade it in for a new GTO. A Corvette with a back seat for half the money. It doesn't stand out like a new Mustang, but with 400hp I want to blend into traffic (We be lead foots and stuff). With 10,000 in annual sales, its going to be a collectable.
Realistic "next cars":
Ford Five Hundred
Ford Fusion
(after the 3.5 engine goes in, and the 500's grille is changed out, not to mention built-in Sirius)
Pontiac Grand Prix GXP
Chevy Impala SS
(can't beat that V8 rumble - drove the GXP, inadvertantly smoked the tires. Twice. My Max has a lot of torque, but it's more gradual!)
Dark Horses:
Ford F-150 (NICE trucks)
Infiniti G35x (the REAL '04 Maxima)
I like the F-150, but will probably end up with something similar to my Maxima: four doors, and gut ripping power. I drove a Fusion, and if that car had 100 more horsepower it would be in my garage. It handles very, very well, and reminded me pretty strongly of the mid-90s Jetta I used to have.
The Infiniti is nice, but frankly it's not a good value. The interior is only marginally better than my car, it has the same engine.. so really all I'm getting for the $12k over what my Maxima cost are updated electronics such as built-in satellite, plus AWD. I'm also tired of taking crap from friends and family over driving a Japanese car (West Michigan).
If I had to guess, my next car will be a Grand Prix GXP. The Impala SS is nice, but it's not quite so much a driver's car as the Pontiac (still, the Impala's interior is more appealing to me). I'll still give it a whirl when I'm ready to buy, though. I have to gird myself for the resale value, however. I'm spoiled by my Nissan!
I've driven in Europe many times and that's the place where horsepower really means something. Not in America with straighter roads, slower speed limits, lots of traffic lights, and rarely the need to pass on a two lane road.
In Europe when you're driving between towns, you really need the horsepower to pass trucks and other slow moving vehicles, and on their divided highways, you need the horsepower just to keep up with traffic.
It really makes me laugh when I hear comments about the Fusion, Freestyle, or some other vehicles being good, but not having enough power. When I used to drive an old Ford Escort on twisty roads, I'd come up behind a Corvette or some other "powerful" car that was using 10% of the available power. Then I'd pass using 80% of my power and wonder why the Corvette owner didn't just buy a Buick!
Anyway, I'm way off topic and I'm sure that on these forums are the exceptions to the average US driver, so I'm sure I'll get someone who will have the opposite opinion, but before you respond remember, I'm talking about the average American driver and driver needs versus the average European driver and driver needs based on the roads, rules, and traffic patterns
Not sure where you drive in the U.S. but on all my driving on two lane roads there are plenty of farmer Ted's driving around holding up traffic.
In Europe when you're driving between towns, you really need the horsepower to pass trucks and other slow moving vehicles,
What you don't have that here in the states?
and on their divided highways, you need the horsepower just to keep up with traffic.
Drive I-294 around Chicago and I-94 between Chicago and Milwaukee at say 80MPH and see how many cars pass you compared to how many you pass.
Not trying to argue with you here but the reasons you give for Europeans to have high horse power can be found here stateside. I would say we need it more here if only to drive through boring places like Nebraska faster.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
It seems like people sometimes like to exaggerate how fast the traffic is in their area (just like they exaggerate how long it takes to drive someplace..."yeah I found this great shortcut that gets me to Town X in 2 hours"...even if the town is 250 miles away!).
It's really just a different type of driving in Europe. In Europe on two lane roads, cars are passing each other all of the time, not just for the truck driving 25mph. In America, on 2 lane roads you'll see cars driving about 60 and nobody passing each other.
Like I said, I'm comparing the average American living who lives in the suburbs...not the small percentage living in rural areas.
No exaggeration here, outside of rush hour traffic along that route can easily do 80+. Its not a stretch in any sense to say that speeds on open interstate highways exceed 80 MPH. Especially since many states have 75MPH speed limits.
In America, on 2 lane roads you'll see cars driving about 60 and nobody passing each other.
Again I am not sure where you drive but drive in Northern Illinois, Northern Indiana, Southern Wisconsin or Eastern Iowa on a two lane rural road at 60 MPH and watch how fast and how often you get passed. I routinely drive those roads at 70-75MPH and get passed.
Like I said, I'm comparing the average American living who lives in the suburbs...not the small percentage living in rural areas.
I would suspect that the percentage of Europeans living in rural areas is small too.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The two brands that will NOT, for sure, sell me my next car, are Pontiac and Saturn. Had one of each, left me stranded, in the rain, one of them twice. Swore I would never forgive their manufacturers, and I'm sticking to it! :-)
Only other car that ever literally left me stranded was a 220K-mile, 18 year old Celica. Dead fuel pump (it was the original). By contrast, the Pontiac and Saturn were both under warranty (both times, in the case of the Saturn), and fairly new.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That would depend on where you are in the Midwest. In Naperville (a high priced far western suburb of Chicago) you most likely wouldn't. They might even look down on the GM or Ford owner. Go to some place like Stillman Valley, Oregon or Byron (Northern Illinois communities) and all you will see are Ford and GM. Most japanese makes are city folk passing through. Yes in those places you most likely will take heat driving any foreign brand.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Europe cities, towns & villages are connected in different ways then US suburbia, so you can't compare rural Europe with rural America. And I've driven lots of time out west or in the south were the speed limits are 70 or 75mph, and I've found that most people drive around 70mph regardless of whether the speed limit is 55 or 75.
And even out west there are cops to get you if you drive too fast, but there's a difference between 80mph straight mindless driving, and 100+mph driving in Europe.
Not saying that Americans can't have their high horsepower toys for fun, just that any new car sold in America has sufficient power for American driving, so whenever anyone says that this or that car doesn't have enough power, that's a false statement. They all have enough power to even do a constant 80mph on the highway, but some people want more horsepower for the image of driving a fast or powerful car. The "need" for more power is about as necessary as the "need" for a certain color of car...definitely not a necessity, but more of a marketing gimmick to sell a car for those more concerned with image than substance.
But saying all that, if it was up to me everyone would be driving "boring" but highly practical cars!
It's not just "heat" - you will actually get your car keyed, guaranteed, if you park it in the "wrong" place.
Ironically, my father in law (AND stepfather in law) are both UAW employees. One gives me crap about my Nissan, one doesn't, but neither has ever brought it up as a point of debate. The FiL HAS brought it up in a negative way to my wife, but not to me directly, and it's a shame. He knows that I didn't buy the car because I have anything against the UAW or the quality of American cars, but he doesn't want to talk about the real reason I bought that car. Which is, simply, that at the time I bought it there were no domestic cars that were four doors and ran like hell. They've been focused on SUVs for so long, it's pretty clear that in the 90s, they put zero R&D into making their cars better or more competitive.
At any rate, I wouldn't judge U.S. mfgs by an old Pontiac or Saturn. I would say, on a car-to-car basis, that you can take any U.S. car of the last couple years and pit it up against its foreign competition, and it will hold up extremely well.
Case in point: Honda has been notorious for their grenading transmissions in the past few years. GM arguably makes the best auto transmissions in the world! But since Honda is a Japanese company, they get a free pass on that, which is nonsense.
Additionally, I sat in some Toyotas at the auto show, and was presented with the most horrific interiors this side of a 1998 Chevy Cavalier. You have got to be kidding me. Cheap mouse fur crap on the seats and ceilings, insubstantial switchgear, etc. I actually stared in disbelief when I sat down in a new Camry. My Maxima pounds the dirt out of that car as far as interior quality goes, and Nissan isn't exactly known for their high grade interiors either!
Now, I'm not shedding a tear for the domestics. They largely brought this on themselves via the sins of the last couple decades. However, at some point, people have got to wake up to the fact that the domestics are now on par with the foreign competition, and that they should probably buy one before GM and Ford go down the toilet. If that happens, well... your standard of living will noticably drop. Even if you do no business with those two companies, your customers do, and it's most certainly a "trickle up" affect.
BTW speed limit enforcement in the U.S. is a joke.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You're right, to a point. My 4 banger Jetta was worlds more fun to drive than my Olds Intrigue with its 3.5L V6.
However, handling is only half the equation. I live in an area where there are plenty of opportunities to open it up, and I like owning a powerful car because it's a) fun, and b) it makes passing maneuvers much safer. But mostly because it's fun.
Keep in mind, also, that driving is drastically different as you go around the U.S. In western MIchigan, everything is very spread out, so you're driving a LOT of highway/freeway miles where you're generally moving at a high rate of speed. In someplace like northern New Jersey, I'd probably get around fine in a slower car, because driving fast on the "off" roads is very hazardous due to the narrow roads and constant curves.
The other guy's point about berzerk freeway driving was true. I remember when I was a teen, my old man driving through Chicago going 90 mph in his Merkur and getting PASSED. We had to do 100mph to keep even with traffic, and my mother was terrified.
Well, that totally sucks. In Japantown (in San Francisco, where less than 10% of all the cars are domestic makes, I'm sure), you can bring any Chevy or Ford you want in and park it for as long as you like. There will be no keying or getting flipped off by passersby just because the car is American, that's for sure.
" I actually stared in disbelief when I sat down in a new Camry. My Maxima pounds the dirt out of that car as far as interior quality goes"
That's also not a straight-across comparison, you know those cars are at significantly different price points. Also, if your Maxima is more than a few years old, I think you will find that the quality of the Maxima's interior has gone down since your car was built, just like those of virtually every car in the biz under $40K.
As for me and my Pontiac/Saturn aversion, I know it is just childish petulance that prevents me from buying either of those brands - I recognize that the cars themselves are better-made these last few years. OTOH, there isn't a car at either I would want to buy right now, so it isn't a problem! :-)
I understand Pontiac will get a 2-door clone of the Cobalt pretty soon to replace the old Sunfire, and that might be the first car they get that would interest me at all. But since the Cobalt's fuel economy is less than great, it would be a dark horse in the running.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Funny how people describe SF as having only 10% domestic cars. I have pictures from 2000 and just about every car in the pictures is domestic. Did things change that fast in 6 years?
Not where I live in east central Illinois. For example, between myself and several next door neighbors, here is the inventory: 3 ea. Honda (two Civics and an Accord), Mitsubishi, Subaru, and Toyota. With a SAAB and a Hyundai providing European and Korean representation. Not a Chevy or Ford in the bunch . . .
In the US, no one wants to live int he city, so there is urban sprall. Not so many empty country roads (again, I'm not saying there arent people in the boonies).
It's funny, in parts of Michigan, people get in trouble for buying a Fusion (made in Mexico, non-union) versus a Mazda6 (Flat Rock, MI union workers). My neighbor who was frustrated (euphamism) I bought a Subaru (made in Indiana, owned 5% by GM at the time) was driving a Focus from Mexico.
Seriously though, very few cars in SF are American, except the rentals. So if you stayed in a hotel or something, you probably saw a lot more American and Korean cars than there are among the people who actually live here.
In the poorer sections of town, you will see more of the older (late 80s, early 90s) domestic cars, often being held together with strapping tape and string. But among cars less than 10 years old, domestics are pretty rare.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
With NE folk typically being more college (and beyond) educated than others, does education have anything to do with this? I know growing up in the DC suburbs around wealth and cool foreign cars whet my 'tite for German cars and the newer Japanese upscalers. Ford and GM don't have the presence there like they do in the Carolinas and Georgia. Maybe in trucks.