Not a strawman argument because you yourself stated that it is better to buy a popular car because of resale value. I am just making a point that resale value is not a very good reason to purchase a car.
But perhaps they're just dumb, and we should all buy Hyundais, instead.
Why not? They're just as good (even though people like you with an obvious agenda will never admit that) and will save you big bucks.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Not a strawman argument because you yourself stated that it is better to buy a popular car because of resale value.
Could you please provide the number of the post in which I advised that people should buy a car that they disliked? I'm looking back here, and I'm having trouble finding it...
Unless some drastic changes have been put in place for 2006+, the 5.3 is not even close to the smoothness of a Toyota/Lexus v6, much less Toyota's v8s.
Well I have both and the GMC 5.3 is quieter starting and running. It may be what they have done on the hybrid version. You cannot hear it start or stop. You have to look at the tach to tell if it is running. The Lexus V8 is old so that may explain. I will have to drive the new one to tell. I have not driven the Nissan Titan. My neighbor has two of them and they are ugly. My 5.7L Suburban was very noisy just as a reference. And my Passat TDI is very noisy idling in comparison.
I think the assumption is it is better to buy a car with strong resale value all else being equal.
No one is suggesting that a person buy a Civic rather than the F-350 they need to tow a horse trailer simply because the Civic might have better resale.
Hyundais are NOT as good as Hondas, Toyotas, or even Subarus. Period. It sounds like you have the agenda in trying to get people to accept Hyundai because you can't afford more expensive cars and had to buy a Hyundai. They're OK cars, but far from being as good. But, of course, because you say they're as good, the rest of the world will be wrong, and you'll be right.
No one is suggesting that a person buy a Civic rather than the F-350 they need to tow a horse trailer simply because the Civic might have better resale.
I'd squeeze the horse into the back of a hatchback. If it was possible to cram fifteen guys into a Beetle, I can't see why you couldn't make room for just one horse in a Civic...
BTW, w/o Trucks & SUVs GM would have been bankrupt ago. They've essentially subsidized all of the cars GM has sold for the past 10 years.
I would agree, but GM does makes good trucks. Their Chevy brand is third in brand loyalty, only behind Toyota and Lexus. Heck, Chevy beats out Honda in brand loyalty. Not sure where I read it, but it was from a decent size survey.
Now who is presenting a strawman argument. You specifically stated that the popularity of a car was important and one of the reasons was resale value. I am just commenting that resale value is really a non issue and giving example of why that is.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I think I still have the 1994 Olds catalogue sitting around from when I bought my 1994 Cadillac DeVille. The Ninety-Eight was on my car-shopping A-list.
I would say it is better to buy a car that is what you want and meets your needs. If it has a high resale value than thats icing on the cake. But also remember that in many cases high resale value is paid for up front.
I just think that resale value should be low on ones list when deciding on what to buy, especially if your going to keep it for a while.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
So, I guess you can't provide a quotation from me that advises people to buy cars that they don't like. (Makes sense, being that I never said such a thing.)
Resale value is obviously an issue when it comes to selling or trading in a car, something which should be obvious...
Hyundais are NOT as good as Hondas, Toyotas, or even Subarus. Period.
real world experiences prove that wrong.
It sounds like you have the agenda in trying to get people to accept Hyundai because you can't afford more expensive cars and had to buy a Hyundai.
I have a 2005 Cadillac CTS-V sitting in the garage try again.
While I have a Hyundai as a daily drive I really don't care what anyone else drives. My next daily drive might be a Hyundai, Honda, toyota, Ford, Dodge, or whatever. Of course 131,500 problem free miles will be incentive to get another Hyundai. I use Hyundai as an example seeing that they do make a highly reliable car at a low price and closed minded people like you will never accept that fact.
because you say they're as good, the rest of the world will be wrong, and you'll be right.
I only say so because I can provide evidence of many, many people with many problem free miles on their Hyundais. All you can do is bad mouth cars you don't like and people who say things you don't agree with.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
How so? Saying you give preference to one make of car due to experience does not equate to not researching other vehicles. That was my feeble attempt at making light of Lemko's comments about lazy customers. I know, I am going to keep my day job.
Many people are relating high mileage with no issues.
In other words, unsubstantiated words of mouth. Not something I would go by.
Sure Hyundai builds a better car now. But I too feel they lag Honda in the total package. They do lead the pack when it comes to lowest price. Keeps Honda on its toes tho.
You can't go wrong with 95% of the cars out there now. Take car of it and it'll take care of you. I'd love to buy another GM product one day(had a great Chevy truck in the late 90s). I think Ford would fold sooner than GM. They're a mess.
I can't bring myself to do it. I can't go to the dealer and buy something new. I've done it once, made me nervous, sweaty palms, and it was a pre-arranged deal from working in the industry. They couldn't have made it any more painless, and the deal was okay. ...but for most cars, 2 years of depreciation gets them close to 60% of their original price, and most of the time they still have some warranty. I'm picky and need a manual trans so it requires more searching, but the pay off is in the savings. Then I just drive it into the ground over the next 7-10 years. I don't think any manufacturer is going to sell me my next car directly, unless I buy an off lease WRX that belongs to Subaru or something.
I think Ford would fold sooner than GM. They're a mess.
Let me start off by saying that neither one is going to fold. Things will get worse before they get better, but they will get better.
That being said, why do you feel Ford is "a mess"? GM is betting the farm on large SUVs right now. Are you blown away by the new Suburban? I'm not.
Hines Ward was riding through downtown Pittsburgh earlier this week during the Steeler's victory parade (250,000 people there and no arrests BTW) so I got a good look at it. GM couldn't pay me to drive one of those monstrosities. This is the best they could do? How about the Monte Carlo and Implala? Would you buy either of those over a Fusion or Five Hundred? Exclude the "tear your arms off with torque steer" SS models when you answer that.
My current car has more than 200k miles and I'm thinking about buying a new car sometime this year. I'm considering, Camry(I4): a good reliable appliance. Civic: gas mileage, price, looks cool Sonata(I4): good standard features for the price
I have to agree, Ford has a solid seller in the F150, a winner in the Mustang, strong sellers in their SUV's and a nice midsize with the Fusion and Five Hundred. I cant see myself driving anything from GM, what the bloated Covette, and the reason Chrysler doesnt show up on the title is that not one of my family, friends or neighbor has one. I guess they just dont buy much Chrysler down here in South Florida, never did and never will unless the Challenger comes out nice or they bring the 'Cuda back........ :shades:
I think Ford would fold sooner than GM. They're a mess.
I don't think either one is going anywhere soon. If GM does go it will be because they split their lines into different entities which I doubt. GM will survive after some trouble and may look completely different 5-10 years down the road. They have done some interesting things with Cadillac and one or two models in their other lines. If they can transfer that over the board GM will be strong. But it will take some doing.
I think Ford is at a fork in the road right now and their future is in their hands. Their truck line is strong, they have winners in several of their cars. If they play their cards right they could be the number one car manufacturer again in 5-10 years.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The biggest problem I think that faces the Big 3 is they don't do enough marketing research. If I was in charge I would take a new design and show it to "X" number of people. I'd take it inside the GM plants and ask the workers if they like that design both exterior and interior. Most Big 3 workers like cars, and care about what they drive and know what they like and don't like. To get more accurate information they could invite the autoworkers family to get a wider age variety. Then they could feed the family's that came refreshments and coffee and give the kiddies stickers. Inexpensive survey and it could be done at the plant openhouse they all usually have annually anyways.
Any one of those cars are very good cars and will do you well. The important thing is to get what you want, you're the one that has to drive it. Test drive them all and make a decision based on your wants and needs.
You might want to add the Honda Accord into this mix and also check the Ford 500.
Remember that the Civic is smaller than the other cars you mentioned. If that is ok you might want to check out the Accent it gets better mileage in the city (but slightly worse on the highway) and a fully loaded one costs about the same as a base Civic.
As for the Fusion check out the Milan, you can most likely get one with a MSRP that is a few hundred off of the Fusion (don't ask me why though).
As for the Sonata, its a good car that offers plenty for the price and you might be able to get a V-6 for the same price of a I-4 Camry.
Just remember get what you want not what others say you should get.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Obviously not enough !!!!!!!!! I'd smack the person that gave the green light to the Aztec :P Even though I personally think GM has the best designed cars overall, I still think they've let a few slip through the cracks that have cost them dearly.
I didn't mean to imply that Ford would be completely out of the game totally by folding this hand. They just don't have much to play in the car business. Trucks are their strong suit.
What cars do they offer that are players in the non- rental/fleet market? Five hundred? Ew. Zephyr (or whatever they're gonna rename it) is being redone after a few months on the market. Fusion is a maybe. Don't see many of them at all on the streets. What else is there?
Explorer is being discontinued, the Freestar van has tanked, the Excursion is history, Expeditions have become a niche market, the Freestyle sales are waning, Sport Trac - are they done? What's left for Ford right now?
Between Mustangs and trucks, there's the comapny. Volvo's sales are way down. Mazda is OK. Ford's not playing behind a big stack of chips. Will the new crossover vehicle and the hybrid Escape pull them out of the funk? We'll see. I'd hate to be a Ford sales guy right now. Tick, tick, tick.
The biggest problem I think that faces the Big 3 is they don't do enough marketing research.
I have no doubt that GM does plenty of market research, as do all the major automakers. In any case, you don't need a researcher to know that people don't want unreliable cars.
GM has too many brands to support, too many mediocre designs, too many unreliable cars, too much dependency on trucks and fleet sales, and too few features and styles that people want. The demographics of its buying pool is too old (Buick, Cadillac), while the cars that it could use to appeal to younger buyers in the small- and mid-sized sedan segment pale in comparison to the competition.
In other words, GM (and Ford) need to build the very best small and mid-sized sedans available on the market, bar none, and use those cars to win back their reputations and convince younger buyers that GM products are worthy of consideration. Even if the margins are low, they need to win in these segments in order to build a base for future business and win back their credibility. As it stands now, Honda and Toyota have done the best job in these classes, and have created a base for loyalty from these customers as they age, earn more money and expand their needs.
The fact is that GM brands such as Opel/ Vauxhall and Holden do a reasonably good job of appealing to customers outside the US -- it is their home turf in which they have more misses than hits.
Blaming the unions is a copout that won't work. GM made plenty of money with union labor when it was selling the SUV's that people wanted. The problem comes down to a lack of demand for products, a problem that would kill any business.
I think that sounds wrong, Ford is no way going to dump the Explorer six months after totally updating it.
He may have meant the Freestyle, although now they have reversed themselves and are going to keep it, right?
And the Sport Trac is around too, in fact it is also a brand new design that will be available in what, a couple of months? Something like that, if not already. It had been out of production for half a year or something like that, which is why sales are non-existent right now.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I've also heard rumors about Ford dumping the Explorer. But still, I don't see it either. Still, look what happened to the Taurus. At one time it was a top selling car for Ford, and some years the top selling car nameplate. It was also considered a benchmark in mainstream family cars...once upon a time. But look at it now.
And the Explorer has fallen from favor in recent years. Doesn't seem that long ago that it was good for 400,000 sales or more per year, and left the Blazer/Trailblazer a distant #2. But fast forward to today. In January, they sold 12,000 Explorers. The Trailblazer, Tahoe, and Grand Cherokee outsold it. The PT Cruiser and Escape sold within 1000 units of it. The Pilot, Rav-4, CR-V, and Liberty all sold between 9-10,000 units.
The Mountaineer only sold 1997 units in January, so it's not like Ford is benefitting much from spreading the platform across two brands. And AFAIK the Explorer is actually padded by Sport-Trac sales!
Now in January 2005, the Explorer moved around 15,500 units, and the Mountaineer around 2600. So it looks like those 400,000 unit sales years have been further in the past then I thought.
Then again, isn't January traditionally a slow sales month?
If I was in charge I would take a new design and show it to "X" number of people. I'd take it inside the GM plants and ask the workers if they like that design both exterior and interior. Most Big 3 workers like cars, and care about what they drive and know what they like and don't like. To get more accurate information they could invite the autoworkers family to get a wider age variety.
“Liking” may not be enough. Besides that, main question would be will the design beat the competition. They would probably not be able to address reliability issues.
Asking workers for feedback is possible if workers in GM plants (offices, etc) had autos that were cross-section of US car buyers’ tastes. And, feedback was anonymous. But, understand that GM employees (Ford also) bias their purchases toward GM because of employee purchase deals over the years along with loyalty. So, unless GM employees have broad experiences with all brands of autos available in US, how would they have basis to know if new design will win in marketplace?
While inexcusable, it's easy to see why the Taurus fell from grace. Under Jack Nasser, Ford spent to much money on buying other auto companies, trying to sell cars over the internet, trying to buy up Ford dealerships etc. and spending $6 billion on the on the developing the Contour and '96 Taurus redesign. Neither of these cars ended up building upon some of Ford's earlier success. The 2000 model was much better, but still not up to Camry/Accord level. They just let it die on the vine, being fat and happy off truck and SUV sales.
The Explorer OTOH, is a little perplexing. IMO, it has been a very competitive since the '02 redesign. The current '06 model is very nice and I'm shocked that anyone would by a Trailblazer over it. It offers good power, 6 speed auto, rear IRS, nice interior etc. I must be missing something on why the TB is now outselling it with it's clumsy handling, and cheaper looking interior.
I did read a while back that the Explorer was the vehicle most traded in on a Freestyle, so maybe they've cannibalized some Explorer sales with that model.
I am not sure that I would say that all of Honda's are better than all of Hyundai's when it comes to the full package. I can buy a Sonata loaded for 20k. An Accord is $25k. Honda will not take my keys out at 5 years 150,000 miles or give me gas at 3 years 90,000 if i run out, or if my daughter leaves the dome light on and I need a boost at 4.5 years. If I am in accident, Honda will not put me up in a hotel or buy me food until my car is fixed. I wouldn't discount the Hyundai package or automobile until you have driven it or you really know what they offer. There is a reason Hyundai will outsell Honda worldwide in 2006. They would've outsold them this year but a strike prevented it.
The first thing to know is what kind of car you currently have that has 200K on it. If it ain't broke don't fix it. I would think it would be a No Brainer to stay within the same family unless they just don't have something you like.
Yep. Honda's volume comes from Japan, the US, and a smallish chunk from Europe and that's basically it. Hyundai's volume comes from South Korea, the US, China, Europe, and India.
Another thing to consider is does your current car run with few, if any, problems? If so why get rid of it? The best car is one that runs and is paid for. You can always put your car payment money in the bank for a few more years and have a larger down payment when you get your new car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I own 2 Gm products. I trade at least twice a year. I have owned them all....Asian and domestic. Never ventured into the european vehicles. Instinct tells me to drift back to Ford on Large truck...3/4 Powerstroke 4x4 crew cab. Then replace small GM car w/Toyota Tacoma crew cab Pre-runner.The reason being that both have great resale and look good. Also, they don't get confused as rental vehicles. I really like Gm products but would like to see them distance themselves from the rental fleet markets.
black_tulip: In other words, unsubstantiated words of mouth. Not something I would go by.
Bingo! Interestingly, two posters who have had the most real-world experiences with a wide variety of vehicles - driftracer (who no longer posts on this site) and rroyce - would have disagreed with the assertion that buying a Hyundai is just as safe a bet as buying a Honda or a Toyota.
Driftracer works for the Northeast's biggest lemon-law firm (it is based in Philadelphia), while rroyce owns several dealerships, and regularly attends dealer auctions. Their views hold much more weight than a solitary poster who had a good experience with a particular model.
Have Hyundais improved? Absolutely! I don't think any other manufacturer has made similar progress over the past 5-10 years. But that is not the same as saying that Hyundai now equals the class leaders. It's entirely consistent to believe that Hyundai is getting better, and will continue to get better, and still believe that it still hasn't equaled the class leaders.
Part of the reason that Explorer sales have slumped is that Ford suspended production of the Explorer Sport Trac in anticipation of the revamped version coming on line. It is my understanding that Explorer Sport Trac sales were included with Explorer sales. The new model debuts later this year.
Plus, Ford appears to be reducing production capacity of the Explorer, realizing that truck-based, body-on-frame SUVs will decline as more buyers switch to car-based models. I haven't heard anything on Ford-related websites about Ford completely phasing out the Explorer, but I have heard that it will receive less emphasis when the Edge debuts.
I thought they were shutting down one of the assembly lines. If I recall correctly, Ford is reducing production capacity for the Explorer, but not completely shuttering all of the plants that produce Explorers.
Comments
Not a strawman argument because you yourself stated that it is better to buy a popular car because of resale value. I am just making a point that resale value is not a very good reason to purchase a car.
But perhaps they're just dumb, and we should all buy Hyundais, instead.
Why not? They're just as good (even though people like you with an obvious agenda will never admit that) and will save you big bucks.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Could you please provide the number of the post in which I advised that people should buy a car that they disliked? I'm looking back here, and I'm having trouble finding it...
Well I have both and the GMC 5.3 is quieter starting and running. It may be what they have done on the hybrid version. You cannot hear it start or stop. You have to look at the tach to tell if it is running. The Lexus V8 is old so that may explain. I will have to drive the new one to tell. I have not driven the Nissan Titan. My neighbor has two of them and they are ugly. My 5.7L Suburban was very noisy just as a reference. And my Passat TDI is very noisy idling in comparison.
No one is suggesting that a person buy a Civic rather than the F-350 they need to tow a horse trailer simply because the Civic might have better resale.
Hyundais are NOT as good as Hondas, Toyotas, or even Subarus. Period. It sounds like you have the agenda in trying to get people to accept Hyundai because you can't afford more expensive cars and had to buy a Hyundai. They're OK cars, but far from being as good. But, of course, because you say they're as good, the rest of the world will be wrong, and you'll be right.
I'd squeeze the horse into the back of a hatchback. If it was possible to cram fifteen guys into a Beetle, I can't see why you couldn't make room for just one horse in a Civic...
I would agree, but GM does makes good trucks. Their Chevy brand is third in brand loyalty, only behind Toyota and Lexus. Heck, Chevy beats out Honda in brand loyalty. Not sure where I read it, but it was from a decent size survey.
-gmfan
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I just think that resale value should be low on ones list when deciding on what to buy, especially if your going to keep it for a while.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Resale value is obviously an issue when it comes to selling or trading in a car, something which should be obvious...
real world experiences prove that wrong.
It sounds like you have the agenda in trying to get people to accept Hyundai because you can't afford more expensive cars and had to buy a Hyundai.
I have a 2005 Cadillac CTS-V sitting in the garage try again.
While I have a Hyundai as a daily drive I really don't care what anyone else drives. My next daily drive might be a Hyundai, Honda, toyota, Ford, Dodge, or whatever. Of course 131,500 problem free miles will be incentive to get another Hyundai. I use Hyundai as an example seeing that they do make a highly reliable car at a low price and closed minded people like you will never accept that fact.
because you say they're as good, the rest of the world will be wrong, and you'll be right.
I only say so because I can provide evidence of many, many people with many problem free miles on their Hyundais. All you can do is bad mouth cars you don't like and people who say things you don't agree with.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
True I have seen some of their rear ends in the drivers seat of Civics.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
All this is is a strawman argument.
Now show me where I said you made such a comment or shut the $%#@ up.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Baggs - Congrats (prematurely) on the Stang. You've been talking about that car for quite a while.
Man, no kidding! Someone must have added a supercharger to this thread late this morning! :surprise:
Thanks (in advance). Now if the waiting doesn't kill me...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That's an example of a lazy customer. You should research a large number of vehicles before you buy your next.
Hyundais are NOT as good as Hondas, Toyotas, or even Subarus. Period.
real world experiences prove that wrong.
What real world experience?
How so? Saying you give preference to one make of car due to experience does not equate to not researching other vehicles.
What real world experience?
Many people are relating high mileage with no issues.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
That was my feeble attempt at making light of Lemko's comments about lazy customers. I know, I am going to keep my day job.
Many people are relating high mileage with no issues.
In other words, unsubstantiated words of mouth. Not something I would go by.
You can't go wrong with 95% of the cars out there now. Take car of it and it'll take care of you. I'd love to buy another GM product one day(had a great Chevy truck in the late 90s). I think Ford would fold sooner than GM. They're a mess.
...but for most cars, 2 years of depreciation gets them close to 60% of their original price, and most of the time they still have some warranty. I'm picky and need a manual trans so it requires more searching, but the pay off is in the savings. Then I just drive it into the ground over the next 7-10 years.
I don't think any manufacturer is going to sell me my next car directly, unless I buy an off lease WRX that belongs to Subaru or something.
Let me start off by saying that neither one is going to fold. Things will get worse before they get better, but they will get better.
That being said, why do you feel Ford is "a mess"? GM is betting the farm on large SUVs right now. Are you blown away by the new Suburban? I'm not.
Hines Ward was riding through downtown Pittsburgh earlier this week during the Steeler's victory parade (250,000 people there and no arrests BTW) so I got a good look at it. GM couldn't pay me to drive one of those monstrosities. This is the best they could do? How about the Monte Carlo and Implala? Would you buy either of those over a Fusion or Five Hundred? Exclude the "tear your arms off with torque steer" SS models when you answer that.
I'm considering,
Camry(I4): a good reliable appliance.
Civic: gas mileage, price, looks cool
Sonata(I4): good standard features for the price
Maybe Ford Fusion?
Any recommendations?
Thanks.
I don't think either one is going anywhere soon. If GM does go it will be because they split their lines into different entities which I doubt. GM will survive after some trouble and may look completely different 5-10 years down the road. They have done some interesting things with Cadillac and one or two models in their other lines. If they can transfer that over the board GM will be strong. But it will take some doing.
I think Ford is at a fork in the road right now and their future is in their hands. Their truck line is strong, they have winners in several of their cars. If they play their cards right they could be the number one car manufacturer again in 5-10 years.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Rocky
Rocky
You might want to add the Honda Accord into this mix and also check the Ford 500.
Remember that the Civic is smaller than the other cars you mentioned. If that is ok you might want to check out the Accent it gets better mileage in the city (but slightly worse on the highway) and a fully loaded one costs about the same as a base Civic.
As for the Fusion check out the Milan, you can most likely get one with a MSRP that is a few hundred off of the Fusion (don't ask me why though).
As for the Sonata, its a good car that offers plenty for the price and you might be able to get a V-6 for the same price of a I-4 Camry.
Just remember get what you want not what others say you should get.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Rocky
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
What cars do they offer that are players in the non- rental/fleet market? Five hundred? Ew. Zephyr (or whatever they're gonna rename it) is being redone after a few months on the market. Fusion is a maybe. Don't see many of them at all on the streets. What else is there?
Explorer is being discontinued, the Freestar van has tanked, the Excursion is history, Expeditions have become a niche market, the Freestyle sales are waning, Sport Trac - are they done? What's left for Ford right now?
Between Mustangs and trucks, there's the comapny. Volvo's sales are way down. Mazda is OK. Ford's not playing behind a big stack of chips. Will the new crossover vehicle and the hybrid Escape pull them out of the funk? We'll see. I'd hate to be a Ford sales guy right now. Tick, tick, tick.
I have no doubt that GM does plenty of market research, as do all the major automakers. In any case, you don't need a researcher to know that people don't want unreliable cars.
GM has too many brands to support, too many mediocre designs, too many unreliable cars, too much dependency on trucks and fleet sales, and too few features and styles that people want. The demographics of its buying pool is too old (Buick, Cadillac), while the cars that it could use to appeal to younger buyers in the small- and mid-sized sedan segment pale in comparison to the competition.
In other words, GM (and Ford) need to build the very best small and mid-sized sedans available on the market, bar none, and use those cars to win back their reputations and convince younger buyers that GM products are worthy of consideration. Even if the margins are low, they need to win in these segments in order to build a base for future business and win back their credibility. As it stands now, Honda and Toyota have done the best job in these classes, and have created a base for loyalty from these customers as they age, earn more money and expand their needs.
The fact is that GM brands such as Opel/ Vauxhall and Holden do a reasonably good job of appealing to customers outside the US -- it is their home turf in which they have more misses than hits.
Blaming the unions is a copout that won't work. GM made plenty of money with union labor when it was selling the SUV's that people wanted. The problem comes down to a lack of demand for products, a problem that would kill any business.
:surprise: No way! Is this for real or a typo? That is a huge decision for Ford to discontinue the Explorer line. I can't see it happening.
He may have meant the Freestyle, although now they have reversed themselves and are going to keep it, right?
And the Sport Trac is around too, in fact it is also a brand new design that will be available in what, a couple of months? Something like that, if not already. It had been out of production for half a year or something like that, which is why sales are non-existent right now.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
And the Explorer has fallen from favor in recent years. Doesn't seem that long ago that it was good for 400,000 sales or more per year, and left the Blazer/Trailblazer a distant #2. But fast forward to today. In January, they sold 12,000 Explorers. The Trailblazer, Tahoe, and Grand Cherokee outsold it. The PT Cruiser and Escape sold within 1000 units of it. The Pilot, Rav-4, CR-V, and Liberty all sold between 9-10,000 units.
The Mountaineer only sold 1997 units in January, so it's not like Ford is benefitting much from spreading the platform across two brands. And AFAIK the Explorer is actually padded by Sport-Trac sales!
Now in January 2005, the Explorer moved around 15,500 units, and the Mountaineer around 2600. So it looks like those 400,000 unit sales years have been further in the past then I thought.
Then again, isn't January traditionally a slow sales month?
“Liking” may not be enough. Besides that, main question would be will the design beat the competition. They would probably not be able to address reliability issues.
Asking workers for feedback is possible if workers in GM plants (offices, etc) had autos that were cross-section of US car buyers’ tastes. And, feedback was anonymous. But, understand that GM employees (Ford also) bias their purchases toward GM because of employee purchase deals over the years along with loyalty. So, unless GM employees have broad experiences with all brands of autos available in US, how would they have basis to know if new design will win in marketplace?
While inexcusable, it's easy to see why the Taurus fell from grace. Under Jack Nasser, Ford spent to much money on buying other auto companies, trying to sell cars over the internet, trying to buy up Ford dealerships etc. and spending $6 billion on the on the developing the Contour and '96 Taurus redesign. Neither of these cars ended up building upon some of Ford's earlier success. The 2000 model was much better, but still not up to Camry/Accord level. They just let it die on the vine, being fat and happy off truck and SUV sales.
The Explorer OTOH, is a little perplexing. IMO, it has been a very competitive since the '02 redesign. The current '06 model is very nice and I'm shocked that anyone would by a Trailblazer over it. It offers good power, 6 speed auto, rear IRS, nice interior etc. I must be missing something on why the TB is now outselling it with it's clumsy handling, and cheaper looking interior.
I did read a while back that the Explorer was the vehicle most traded in on a Freestyle, so maybe they've cannibalized some Explorer sales with that model.
Did I read that correctly?
Yep. Honda's volume comes from Japan, the US, and a smallish chunk from Europe and that's basically it. Hyundai's volume comes from South Korea, the US, China, Europe, and India.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Bingo! Interestingly, two posters who have had the most real-world experiences with a wide variety of vehicles - driftracer (who no longer posts on this site) and rroyce - would have disagreed with the assertion that buying a Hyundai is just as safe a bet as buying a Honda or a Toyota.
Driftracer works for the Northeast's biggest lemon-law firm (it is based in Philadelphia), while rroyce owns several dealerships, and regularly attends dealer auctions. Their views hold much more weight than a solitary poster who had a good experience with a particular model.
Have Hyundais improved? Absolutely! I don't think any other manufacturer has made similar progress over the past 5-10 years. But that is not the same as saying that Hyundai now equals the class leaders. It's entirely consistent to believe that Hyundai is getting better, and will continue to get better, and still believe that it still hasn't equaled the class leaders.
I can't seem to get the current list.
I haven't seen it in a while. :confuse:
Plus, Ford appears to be reducing production capacity of the Explorer, realizing that truck-based, body-on-frame SUVs will decline as more buyers switch to car-based models. I haven't heard anything on Ford-related websites about Ford completely phasing out the Explorer, but I have heard that it will receive less emphasis when the Edge debuts.