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Comments
I know I read at least one report on an auto site that said GM was no longer advancing the update of the envoy/TB, and instead was focussing on other vehicles.
I took a look at the new '07 Yukon SLT yesterday. All I can say is WOW! The interior, the leather quality, the dash style- just amazing. A truly beautiful, high quality looking vehicle. And- it has the same EPA mileage ratings as the Envoy Denali (same engine, but more mass). So far above anything I've seen from Asia, including Lexus and Infinity. The folks at GM worked hard on this vehicle. Hope it pays off for them.
DrFill
Oh, yeah, its "got to have a waterfall", anybody a pool contractor out there......... :confuse:
Oh, yeah, its "got to have a waterfall", anybody a pool contractor out there......... :confuse:
You can get a nice "blow up" pool from target for $20. Add a sprinkler and you'll have your shiny new Mustang in the driveway ASAP:) LOL....
I agree that GMC has the best out there right now and the 2007 models look real promising. Don't plan to get much trade off your 99 Blazer. They are not giving much in trade these days. Good luck, and the Denali is a very nice SUV. The only one better is the Caddy version for a lot more money. The 5.3L V8 is my favorite gas engine. Smoother than Lexus V8.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If I was in the market for a domestic full-size pickup, I probably would buy an F-150. But I'm not, so I won't.
If I wanted to buy a mid-sized sedan, and reliability was my top priority, then of couse I would buy an Accord or a Camry. It isn't a mistake that these cars dominate the segment, year after year after year, and that they can manage to do so despite having few sales to the fleet market, unlike the Big 2.5.
I'm just curious -- why do you think that Accords, Civics and Camrys are so popular among retail buyers?
The problem with your analogy is that McDonald's and the French restaurant are in different price classes. Therefore, that is not a valid comparison. Popularity is still a good indicator of quality when you compare equals. For example, if everything else is the same, which French restaurant would you go to-the one with a wait time of 40 minutes or one with immediate seatings?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
They have around here, at least on the one's on the lots which are auto tranny GTs and V6 models. You can't find a manual tranny GT, which is what I'm getting, anywhere for miles.
I have already talked to the salesman we deal with and he verified we will be able to factory order an '07 using our X-Plan discount. Not all dealers will do that but he wants to keep us as a customer since we turn our vehicles over so often and keep up with service schedules in their service dept. If they change their minds come December I'll look elsewhere because I'm not paying sticker let alone a markup.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Popularity is an indicator that a product provides what people want in a given segment.
(And let's bear in mind that for many US vehicles, many of their sales are driven by fleet buyers, so you can't use their sales figures to determine what consumers think of their product without adjusting for the government, corporate and rental fleets that purchase so many of their cars and trucks. Hertz's priorities are not the same as the average car buyers.)
So, we all know that the Accord and Camry consistently lead the mid-size class, while the Corolla and Civic lead the small car segment. Why do you think that is?
I would bet that the one with immediate seating would be the choice of most, regardless of the quality of the food.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Sounds like the two nebbishy nitwit girls on "Square Pegs!"
Leave it to a Big 2.5 supporter to blame the customer. And you wonder why GM and Ford's market share are falling...
I too thought I'd have to wait for the kitchen to be redone or something like that but she realized how important this car is to me and didn't even put up any sort of argument. I guess she feels my having to put two kids into car seats in the back of the Mustang will be punishment enough! :surprise:
It's not wrong, its not right, its just reality. If everyone was an enthusiast, the road would be full of M3's and 911's, but reality sets in and things like mortgages and kids get in the way and most of us have to buy with our head instead of our heart.
You may have something there. For me, I tend to think "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".
BTW I see you didn't address what was said but attacked who said it. Up to your old tricks I see.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Seriously, if somebody asked me what car to buy, I'd ask them what they wanted and what was most important to them, (price, fuel economy, performance, payload capacity, etc.).
Unless some drastic changes have been put in place for 2006+, the 5.3 is not even close to the smoothness of a Toyota/Lexus v6, much less Toyota's v8s. Toyota's 4.7 is by far the smoothest running SUV engine I've ever sampled. It just is a little shy on power.
I have a 5.3L in my Suburban, it is not as smooth as the 3.5L v6 I had my previous Nissan Pathfinder. I find the 5.3 slow revving like all of GMs engines I've sampled, seems GM must use a 100lb flywheel on all of their engines.
You gotta hear the piston slap at start up, sometimes it sounds like a diesel:) At least I never have to look at the tach to see that it is running.
My favorite truck engine is Nissan's 5.6L. That thing feels like a big block. Lots and lots of torque. Makes my suburban feel like it's powered by a v6. It's smooth and just kicks the crap out of the 5.3 in every way, except fuel economy, but many factors other than the engine have effects on MPG. GMs new 6.2 maybe better, but I haven't sampled one yet.
As usual, you're off the mark, Snake.
Lemko's mentality of Blame the Customer has gotten Detroit and Dearborn into the trouble that they're in today.
What would be refreshing would be for GM management and the UAW to sit down and reach a stunning but obvious conclusion -- "WE MAKE CRAPPY CARS!" -- and then resolve to do something about it.
Instead, management blames labor, labor blames management, and both of them blame the customer (tossing in a few Big Media Conspiracies and They're Lazy And Stupid comments to match), all while building the same second-rate dreck that they've always built.
I'm sorry, but anyone who prioritizes reliability and would voluntarily spend his hard earned money on a GM mid-sized sedan, rather than an Accord or a Camry, is a fool. If you prefer the GM product because you prefer the styling, features, etc., then more power to you, but to buy such a car expecting it to be a long-term reliable runner is making a bad move. Consumers know this as well, which is why they don't buy as many of them.
I will give you an example, there used to be a very well known, very popular (hard to get reservations), very expensive French restaurant near Chicago. There was also another not to well known, less popular (you almost always could get a seat), less expensive French Restaurant in another suburb. Guess which one was usually rated as having the better food? I will give you a hint, most times you could walk in and get a seat with very little waiting.
Being more popular does not equal being better in quality.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Well, Thank God this is a democracy and I don't have to listen to you.
I wouldn't mind riding in a Buick or Cadillac, but they sure take the fun out of driving. (I'll exclude the V series cars from this comment)
BTW, w/o Trucks & SUVs GM would have been bankrupt ago. They've essentially subsidized all of the cars GM has sold for the past 10 years.
No I hit the mark head on. Lemko made a valid argument and you never addressed what he said but went after the "messenger".
Now instead of shouting "your blaming the customer" why don't you address what he said and give an argument that supports the opposite view?
but you will most likely do your own old worn out tricks of attacking the messenger, misdirections and setting up strawmen.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I already did that. I've shown you a NHTSA survey that indicates that car buyers say that cusomers prioritize reliability at a reasonable price. Their choice to consistently purchase Accords and Camrys in the mid-sized segment, and Civics and Corolla in the small car segment, would indicate that their purchases match their priorities, as all four cars are highly reliable and reasonably priced.
Now, folks such as yourself and Lemko want us to believe that everyone is simply dumb and spends thousands of dollars based on that stupidity. I'd say that's pretty arrogant to presume that the average customer is stupid, yet you are some rare gem who can rise above.
And if the people running the show in Detroit and Dearborn were so clever, then why wouldn't they just build cars that can tap into that stupidity? Perhaps it's because all the marketing in the world can't overcome years of a poor reputation for delivering the quality that the average person wants.
I guess I'm a fool. I've been spending my money on GM products for decades. First of all, I simply don't like the styling of either the Camry or Accord. I'd have to be seen everyday in those bland cars with everybody looking at me like a lemming who can't think for himself. I'd sooner be seen in the weirdest-looking Mitsubishi.
I once did consider a Lexus LS430. I drove it and couldn't help but think how much it felt like a Buick! That's not a bad quality. The interior was really nice, but it wasn't $5K nicer than the Cadillac Seville STS I ultimately chose. A few weeks later a Lexus LS430 was parked next to my new ride. Seeing the two side by side made me happy I chose the Cadillac instead.
Reliable long-term runners? How about both my 1988 Buick Park Avenue and 1989 Cadillac Brougham? Is that long-term enough? Heck, my 1968 Buick Special Deluxe ran for 24 years! Is that long enough?
I am just curious, would a Japanese car be your recommendation in any of those categories? Or European? How about non-GM - do you feel that the best choice in any category is a Ford or Chrysler?
Oh yeah, and you're hardly a fool if you have been spending your money buying what you like.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I already did that. I've shown you a NHTSA survey that indicates that car buyers say that cusomers prioritize reliability at a reasonable price.
If thats the case the roads should be full of Sonata' as they have been rated one of the most, if not the most, reliable car out there and they cost thousands less than the competition. But thats not the case, why? PERCEPTION not facts.
Now, folks such as yourself and Lemko want us to believe that everyone is simply dumb and spends thousands of dollars based on that stupidity.
All you have to do is look at any fad that comes along. Advertising firms make millions spending billions to shape peoples perception that brand 'X' is better. The sad thing is that it works.
Popularity is for snobs and sheep.
Face it with few exceptions all cars today are extremely reliable and will last over 200K miles with the proper care. Honda and Toyota really have nothing over Hyundai, Ford, or GM except perception.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If you want a full-size truck, I'd go with a Ford F-150.
If you want a subcompact and aren't worried about price as much as long-term reliability - a Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla.
If you want a minivan - a Chrysler Town and Country.
I don't know about today because the quality and reliability has fallen off, but fifteen years ago I'd have highly recommended a Mercedes S-Class if you wanted a high-bucks sedan. Today, I'd probably direct somebody to a Lexus LS430.
Same here, back in 1990 I was a fool for buying that Chevy Corsica. I mean it was such low quality it only lasted 320K miles before the transmission dropped.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I know somebody who did work for Kia's Lemon Law buyback program, and she wouldn't tend to agree with that. (Fortunately for her, the Kia customer's loss was her gain.)
There is plenty of data available on cars today, from this website to Consumer Reports to JD Power to word of mouth on the street, and much of that would weigh against you. It is no mistake that reliability surveys continuously put these "imported" (but made in the US) cars on top of the list, and most people have ownership experiences to match those surveys.
So why should I believe you, one guy with a preconcieved agenda, instead of thousands of average consumers who buy based upon reliability and price, if I was choosing a car in the small- and mid-sized car segment? Whereas you have an ax to grind, they just want value for their money.
Now, if I was grinding the same ax and wanted to convince myself that everyone in the country (except for myself, of course) is an idiot, then I would gladly follow your advice. But if I'm going for bang for the buck in the reliability department, then I'll go with the advice of the vast number of people who share those values.
Incidentally, my own car purchase decision was based upon my preferences for performance, styling and overall driving balance, not reliability, which is why I made the choice that I made. Not everyone makes ownership of an absolutely worry-free car their top priority, so I bought accordingly, with some fingers crossed. I do hope to be fortunate, and so far, so good, but time may prove me wrong...
You think that the popularity of the Camry and Accord is a fad?
No, the Pet Rock was a fad, but the enduring popularity of these cars is not. And isn't it funny that you haven't addressed the fact that research on these cars simply shows them to be consisently more reliable than the cars that don't sell as much.
These people have information to back them up. What proof do you have to offer that they are dumb and lazy? Any proof at all?
I think you are dead on in all your recommendations, but I am surprised you would recommend the Lexus over the Cadillac for a "high bucks sedan", given your positive past experiences with Cadillac.
The funny thing about issues of "long-term reliability" is that such a TINY percentage of buyers keep their cars to the kind of mileage that they would see a substantial difference between the best and the worst of cars in that respect. Makes you wonder why people prioritize it so highly, yet they do (me too, even though I have a bad habit of turning cars over pretty frequently). But of course, one thing that does affect is resale, which would be important out to year 7 or 8 of ownership.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I didn't say that so please stop putting words in my mouth.
Secondly while the Camry and Accord are good cars there are cars out there that are just as good for less that don't have the sales numbers that they have. That means that means people are not really looking for a reliable car at a reasonable price, but at what the perceive.
And isn't it funny that you haven't addressed the fact that research on these cars simply shows them to be consistently more reliable than the cars that don't sell as much.
Actually I addressed the issue that there is at least one car that is rated higher than the accord and Camry by JD power. Isn't it funny that all the while you boast JD Power and Consumers Rip Off, you never mention cars that they say are just as reliable. Again it is all based on perception not facts.
These people have information to back them up. What proof do you have to offer that they are dumb and lazy?
I have provided a valid argument to support my position with facts. Now lets see you counter the argument with something more than "Naw not so".
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
So why do you think that they perceive that? "They're lazy" is supposed to be an answer worth responding to?
Actually I addressed the issue that there is at least one car that is rated higher than the accord and Camry by JD power.
The Sonata is a newcomer; the others have been consistently strong for several years. It's fair for consumers to want to see at least more years of consistent showings before sales can be expected to match.
I have provided a valid argument to support my position with facts.
Doubtful. For one, CR is a pretty solid mag, so attacking it without basis undermines your credibility. I'm inclined to believe it before I'd believe you.
Don't rightfully know, but not based on facts as they exist seeing that there are highly reliable cars for less.
"They're lazy" is supposed to be an answer worth responding to?
I for one didn't say they were lazy, but I did give examples of how most consumers really don't do much homework on the issue. You haven't commented on that just tried to put words in my mouth.
The Sonata is a newcomer; the others have been consistently strong for several years.
Sonata is not a newcomer and has had many years of reliable service, its just the newer ones are even better built. And its not the only car out there thats reliable.
Again it all comes down to perception. Facts don't figure into this.
Popularity does not equate to quality.
Doubtful. For one, CR is a pretty solid mag,
No CR is not. They have many times shown themselves not to be as unbiased as they claim. I have seen them rate the exact same thing off of the exact same assembly line differently (only difference was the brand name stamped on it). I have seen them proclaim in their tests that Product 'A' was the best all the while never even reporting on other models which every other reviewer proclaims as better than 'A'. I have seen way to many highly recommended items turn out to be total crap. I am not the only one out there that will tell you all of this.
All this among other things which I will not go into would make me go out and check if CR told me the sky was blue.
Now you still havent addressed why you don't admit that that two bit rag you idolize rates it with high marks in quality.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You can chant that all you like, but if you compare retail sales figures for popular cars in the bread-and-butter classes to survey data about reliability and value-for-money, you see a strong correlation between the two.
And no, the Sonata has not been as reliable over the last several years as has the Accord, nor has the driving experience won the same praise as would an Accord. Plus, Hyundai also has a reputation problem to overcome, although I'll give it credit for making some great efforts to address that.
Right now I'm looking for computer speakers. I have a few requirements, but I don't know much about them and I'm not all that picky. They all sound almost the same to me.
So I look at the choices out there. If I see a brand I haven't heard of (there are a lot)... nope, no thanks. If I see a brand that I've heard one bad story about... nope, no thanks. On online sites with reviews, I automatically gravitate towards the products that have the most user reviews; I don't want to be a guinea pig. I'll end up with a safe choice, which probably won't be the best deal or the best product.
I bet that's exactly what leads to a lot of Camry and Corolla purchases.
#1 correlation does not mean cause and effect, any first year statistics student will tell you that.
#2 The fact that there are cars that are just as reliable, and have been for years, that cost less but don't have the sales shows that it boils down to perception and not facts. Deny it all you want, it doesn't change that fact.
Plus, Hyundai also has a reputation problem to overcome,
Thank you for proving my point, it is perception and not facts that drive consumers purchasing decisions. They have overcome it in fact many years ago, there are legions of happy Hyundai owners with plenty of miles on their cars that proves that. They just have to overcome it in perceptions and they are making headway in that.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Let me ask you this, if you heard one bad story but 10 good ones will you still say "no thanks"?
Or what if that one bad story is from someone with no experience with it?
Or what if the bad story is from 25 years ago?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Not sure what you mean by this. If you define "best" as the most likely of being highly reliable and a good value, and you need a small car, then a Civic or Corolla really are the best products.
However, if you are shopping in that class and you prioritize other characteristics, i.e. rock bottom price, performance, styling, etc., then those cars may or may not be the best choice for you. But that would mean that your priorities don't match those of the average buyer.
The average consumer wants a reliable runner, and those top sellers have earned their reputation for providing just that. I personally find them to be a bit dull, but then again, I don't shop for cars such as those. But in any case, I certainly wouldn't want their domestic alternatives if I was.
Hyundai earned its reputation with some facts, namely a very bad car that screwed a lot of people. So of course, a smart consumer is going to be wary before rolling the dice by going with another one of their products, particularly one who probably doesn't have a lot of money to spend on a car in the first place.
Funny that until recently, those adoring Hyundai fans you speak of have been reporting worse results to CR, JD Power and the rest than they have for the Corolla or the Civic. Must be that vast Car Media Conspiracy that some of you have been talking about...
Popularity is driven by the media and company propoganda machine. Toyota happens to specialize in this area, and are super successful because they have a great marketing team that are also the best hypnotizers.
Rocky