Really? Wow, Eureka! One car I may really be interested in. At the time of my current purchase (03) Wagon and 5-door were still not available, that was why I didn't get it. I would have tried it for sure. Lets just hope Mazda keeps them up to date and during the next makeover they won't disappear.
The 6 is built in the Flat Rock, Michigan plant that used to build Probes and MX-6s back in the day. UAW all the way.
Only the NA versions of the Mazda6 sedan, hatch, and wagon are built in Flat Rock along side the Ford Mustang. The MAZDASPEED6 is built in Japan along with the versions of the Mazda6 the rest of the world drives. So yes it is a UAW car but you have to be careful and read the sticker depending where you are.
I have a 2004 Mazda6 sedan and it is an EXCELLENT vehicle. I highly recommend it to anyone. When the lease is up on it I'll be buying or leasing a 2007 Mustang GT built in the same plant so obviously I don't have any problems with the quality of craftsmanship at that plant either.
why is it that it seems that so many auto journalists seem to enjoy picking apart domestics but the same problems on imports just seem to be overlooked. im sick of hearing that domestics are junk ive owned plenty of gm and fords and never had any issues with either. now im not saying domestics are perfect but neither are the imports so for a guy like me if i have x amount of dollars to spend on a new car would i want my money going to the land of the rising sun or put food on the tables of this country? dont bother pointing out about all the toyota and honda plants in N America cause there is a lot more gm and ford jobs on the line then there are foreign jobs. and to top it off 99% of imports are just plain fugly
Well, the name LUCERNE will certainly keep me from buying one, as the last time I saw that name on anything, it was the Safeway internal Milk Brand.
The last Electra rolled off the line in 85, I believe. It was an Electra 380 - the lower rung of the Park Avenue.
But, just to be fair - I went today and tried a Lucerne. Here's my honest assessment. And yes, I did like the Buick Brand. I bought a Skylark and a Park Avenue for my inlaws, and a LeSabre and a 2 Park Avenues, one of them an Ultra for my business. I'm 52, so youth and inexperience have nothing to do with my impressions of today's Buick.
1) Exterior - Nice from the side & front. Ford fired the designer of the 500, and evidently, Buick hired him/her, as the back is just as plain and non-descript as you can get. It is reminscent of the Camry from the side, but I don't mind it.
2) Interior - One thing I used to like about Buicks, was the dash and instrument panel were simple, but fairly ornate. In my 83 Park Avenue, the Park Avenue was in script on the passenger side of the dash, in the plood, and it lit up at night. Nice effect. Very nice. Well, they've certainly taken care of that! Could they possibly make the dash any plainer and more boring? I don't think so. You can only put so much gray plastic on that thing. Plood is scarce, only on the console. Hondas and Toyotas have much nicer looking dashes. If you've seen an Avalon lately, it murders this car inside in every respect. Shame on Harley Earl, or whoever signed off on this. The interior would kill the deal if the outside didn't.
The Northstar V-8 is nice - and about time. But the ancient 4 speed FWD gearbox is nothing to brag about. In other words, not much new here, or worth a look other than the engine.
If it were the Park Avenue - it would be a travesty - so I'm glad they renamed it something ubiquitous. That car will disappear into a sea of hydrofoam. GM has condemned Buick to death, just like Olds. But, they could use several fewer divisions. It's the only way they'll survive.
As to Ford vs. GM's survival? I'll take your bet. Frankly, I think they'll have to merge with each other, or somebody. That'll make things worse, I know, but it's the next step in their mutual demise.
when i took a look at the 'best eco-friendly', the highlander :confuse: , there was a consumer reports 'short take'. it noted the highlander was based on the same 'platform' as the lexus rx330. guess what the basis for both is? :surprise:
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
1) 1984 Toyota landcruiser BJ-60 diesel 375,000kms, 2) 1989 Toyota tercel 132,000kms to replace the 1987 Toyota tercel with 297,000kms. The 1987 still runs but body gave up. I will be buying a 2007+ Toyota camry or Avalon to replace our 96 Bonneville and a new Toyota FJ Cruiser to replace the other cruiser. The Bonne has been a good car reliability wise but doesn't hold a candle to my older Toyota's fit and finish and quality of plastics.
Honda and Toyota are in my opinion the only auto manufacturers to build cars to last more than 10 years. In other words they design cars to be used cars not just to cater to the new car buyer. How many old Audi's have you seen on the road lately or even late 80's and early 90's Mercedes?
Suzuki is another manufacturer to build cars to last more than 10 years. Still can see plenty of mid 80s Suzuki Samurai running around strongly. :shades:
I see lot potential in Suzuki, I wont be surprised if Suzuki starts making model that compete with Toyota and Hodna by 2015. Millions of 1980 Suzukis still running on substandard Indian highways.
nvbanker: That car will disappear into a sea of hydrofoam. GM has condemned Buick to death, just like Olds. But, they could use several fewer divisions. It's the only way they'll survive.
Actually, Pontiac is on the chopping block, according to insiders who regularly post on other websites. New products for the division have been quietly cancelled, or turned into simple rebadges of existing products (Cobalt-based Pontiac; Torrent). At this point the only confirmed new Pontiac is the G6 replacement, and even that one is iffy. Forget about a new GTO or reborn Firebird (as the autoextremist said is coming); those are dead.
Given that Buick is becoming a global brand (more Buicks are sold in Asia than in the U.S.), it makes sense for GM to slowly phase out a brand that only exists in North America, and is becoming increasingly irrelevant in even that market.
This is turning into a replay of what Oldsmobile went through before GM pulled the plug in December 2000.
At this point I'd place my money on Buick's survival. And I'll also bet that Pontiac joins Oldsmobile in that big garage in the sky by 2010.
I know that, Rocky. Been on the market for quite a while and looked at them all. By the way, 9-2X is a Japanese production done in Gunma by Subaru (as it is just a reskinned Impreza) due to expire this year. Saab is a hardly domestic nameplate - just owned by domestic company. Their vehicles are made in Sweden and Germany (except 9-2X and 9-7X).
My current thought is: 5-door, manual, larger than my current WRX, but not too huge, sporty, fast (not necessarily as fast as the WRX, but still enough to not regret the switch), good handling, "fun", well equipped in both safety (side impact airbags and curtains, fog lights, possibly stability control) and convenience and comfort features (perhaps HID, 6-CD, all power, sunroof, etc.). Price: from $20K to $35K, i.e. ready to pay more if it is worth it, but not attached to any price point at the moment.
When domestics (or their subsidiaries) come up with designs/layouts I like, I will not refuse them based on the nameplate. I will always look at their merits. However, it is still I who makes decision what the criteria and final grades are.
I kinda like Magnum from far away - from close a bit too big, and no manual. Perhaps if it sticks around, I may look at it in the round after next (or whatever it evolves into), when I'm past 40.
Dodge Caliber, especially in its anounced SRT-4 version may be of interest. At least some strong points.
However, as for what is available today, my choices will remain (in approximate order of preference): Subarus (Legacy, Outback, Impreza WRX), Mazda6 5-door or wagon, Audi A3, Saab 9-3 Sportswagon, Volvo V50 T5, Mazda3. All depends of financial circumstances at the time. If I get a big raise, Audi A4 Avant and BMW 325 xiT would be added, but for know I cannot justify buying/leasing $40K+ vehicle, even if I like it very much. There are also several announced cars that still remain vague, but may be very interesting depending on the execution: MazdaSpeed3, Dodge Caliber SRT-4.
Previous Ford Focus was my long favorite until they became clear they could not execute (plus my budget was increased). Current is already to "downscale" for me: if they bring something in shape and specs of previous SVT 5-door (or at least bring it in pair with its cousing, Mazda3), it would get back into the game.
I've got long list of wishes, but low hopes of them really materializing. The biggest would be MazdaSpeed6 Wagon/5door, which would be direct competitor to Legacy GT line, my current favorite (except they dropped manuals this year, but I hope they'll bring them back by the time I am ready to buy).
Pontiac is on the chopping block, according to insiders who regularly post on other websites
Whatever. Pontaic remains one of the top selling brands in the US. GM's current restructering plans put alot of focus on Pontaic.
turned into simple rebadges of existing products
As apposed to like the very first Pontiac that was little more than a Chevy with Oakland trim? Or the Firebird, Ventura, Grand Am. (I'd say lemans but that was an F-85, and the Monte Carlo was actually a Grand Prix knock off.)
Come on, GM mastered cookie-cutter design eons ago.
You forgot Volvo. You can get a stick in the V50 and V70 wagons. They are not on the cheap side of course and are not UAW made, but US owned none the less.
Ubber, are you saying PONTIAC is one of the top selling brands in the U.S.? Because at 437,xxx sales a year, it is at best an also-ran in the sales wars, in the second tier after all the major manufacturers' main brands (Chevy, at GM) have had their say. Toyota sells more Camrys than that each year. Nissan and Honda are both significantly over a million, Ford and Chevy are over 2 million (with Toyota expecting to pass 1.5 million this year just on the Toyota brand alone), Chrsyler, Dodge.......
As a second-stringer, Pontiac is strong, ahead of all the little Japanese companies as well as VW and all the luxury makes. But it is still barely holding even with Hyundai in the second string, and Kia is coming up fast.
GM needs to kill one or two more of its second stringers.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Is it really ahead of Chrysler and Dodge? I am very surprised, I will bet at least one of those sells better than Pontiac. I have to check on that.
Pontiac has been on its way down for years, now being passed by Hyundai, and probably by Kia as soon as 2010. It doesn't compete strongly with the mega-brands, in fact it is not even on the same order of magnitude as them, so calling it "one of the best-selling" brand is a little misleading, IMO. Does it really make a good case for its own preservation?
Yes, among the second string GM brands, it is the strongest. Maybe they should kill Buick and Saturn instead.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The last Electra rolled off the line in 85, I believe. It was an Electra 380 - the lower rung of the Park Avenue.
This is a minor nitpick, but they called them Electra up through 1990. That final year the lineup was Electra Limited, Electra Park Avenue, Electra Park Avenue Ultra, and Electra T-type. Kinda silly IMO, calling an entry-level model "Limited". They probably could've gotten by just calling them Electra, Electra Limited, Electra Park Ave, and Electra T-type
In 1985, they were actually brazen enough to offer the 3.0 V-6 as the standard engine in these cars! I forget what the trim levels back then were, though.
In my 83 Park Avenue, the Park Avenue was in script on the passenger side of the dash, in the plood, and it lit up at night.
Okay, now I'm jealous. My Grandma's '85 LeSabre had that same dash, but where it said "LeSabre Limited" on it didn't light up at night. We were cheated! :P
I gotta admit, I actually like the Lucerne. The only thing I really DON'T like about it is the name. Makes me think of that cheap Safeway "Ice Milk" that my grandma used to buy back in the 70's.
Now judged in the context of the time they were produced, I like my grandma's '85 LeSabre better, or the '77-84 Electra, but I do like the Lucerne better than the LeSabre. I think I still liked the '97-05 Park Avenue better, though.
Lucerne: think Switzerland. Think older Buick name in Canada. Someone posted a pic of Lucerne in another discussion here IIRC. Think the milk is named after the Lucerne.
I think it's not quite the last Park Ave style nor the previous Jaguar like Park Ave. It's better than the practical LeSabre. I'd like to drive one now. I'll have to make time in my day to do that and drive an Accord and Carmry if I can fool the salesman into letting me drive one
the new Lucerne might suffer the same image problem as the 2nd generation Aurora did. The first-gen Aurora was a flagship for Oldsmobile. It was kind of Oldsmobile's Seville, or a 4-door Toronado. It was above the 88 and the Ninety-Eight.
The Ninety-Eight was dropped after 1996, and replaced by a half-hearted Regency, which was an 88 with a Ninety-Eight front clip. Then the 88 was dropped after 1999, and the 2nd-gen Aurora came out as an early 2001 model, filling the shoes of both the 88, with the V-6 models, AND the previous Aurora with the V-8. I think it lost some prestige in that transition. And some exlusivity.
And now the Lucerne seems to be doing the same, replacing both the LeSabre with the V-6 models, and the Park Ave with the more luxurious, and V-8 models. It kind of makes me think of back in the old days, when they started putting Imperials back on Chrysler platforms, and they just didn't seem as exclusive.
My 1988 Buick is actually called an Electra Park Avenue. I still have a 1979 Buick catalog from when I had my '79 Park Ave. The C-Body lineup was Electra 225 - Electra Limited - Electra Park Avenue.
"The Ninety-Eight was dropped after 1996, and replaced by a half-hearted Regency, which was an 88 with a Ninety-Eight front clip."
Aaaarrrrghhhh! Good God what STUPID car!!! You brought back an unpleasant memory. I loved the Ninety-Eight! The half-(censored)Regency was an ersatz Ninety-Eight wannabe poseur!
I kinda liked those '91-96 Ninety-Eights. They didn't have the sleek, handsome good looks of the '91-96 Park Avenue, which seemed to be styled just about perfectly. But there's still just something about them.
I think part of it might be because they're fairly rare. They weren't popular when new, and nowadays I hardly ever see 'em. So when I do see one, it catches my eye.
probably it's because u live in USA where Suzuki is not a popular brand (except for its motorcycle) where bigger engines are the norm, while Suzuki is well known for its ever reliable smaller engine cars.
I think part of it might be because they're fairly rare. They weren't popular when new, and nowadays I hardly ever see 'em.
Really? There's a good assortment of them around here. The '91-96 Olds 98 was the Old Lady Special (before Oldsmobile got all sporty, and they defected to Buick). Just sit outside the bank on the first Monday of the month when those gals come in to deposit their Social Security checks.
Whoa, Whoa guys. I should of told you I also have a 2003 Chev Tracker which is a Suzuki Grand Vitara in disguise. I bought the Tracker because I got Japanese quality at a Chevrolet price when G.M was practicaly giving them away before the Equinox came out. They were the best quality and priced G.M products period. It also didn't hurt that I kept seeing older Suzuki's travelling the roads not down under but up here in Canada all the time. It also helps that the Suzuki factory is an hour away in Ingersoll Ontario Canada, so I am helping out a fellow Canadian worker put food on the table. I am pretty sure it will also give me many years of service along with my Toyota's.
My heart is still in cruiser land though and with the new Cruiser out it is only a matter of time until I get one.
Yeah, the Hemi's a pushrod. I don't think pushrods are necessarily bad, in and of themselves. It's just like anything else...quality and the effort put into the design are often more important than the format. You can make good pushrod engines, mediocre ones, or crappy ones. Same with OHC. From my understanding, the 3.5/3.9 pushrod engines that Chevy's using are pretty good. Smooth, sophisticated, good power, and good economy. I think about the only thing the 3.4 has going for it is economy. Although to be fair, when my buddy test drove an Equinox, it didn't seem THAT bad to me. Probably because it was pretty well-insulated, and, well, on the test drive he didn't really stomp it or anything. He thought it was pretty quick, but then he's comparing it to a 1998 Tracker with 133,000 miles on it, and sees its 0-60 time double when you put a second person on board! :P
the suzuki plant, is that the factory i see on my way to michigan while on 401 (402?)? if so, i have been by it a bunch of times. the sami's were kind of popular for a bit, but i rarely see them anymore. sorry, i got your post mixed up with 'bearsgv'.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
andre, you are confirming my point. good engines are not determined just by their cam configuration. i split my driving between an ohv v8, sohc v8 and dohc i4. i like them all.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
You got it, by Woodstock north of London Ontario on the 401. The plant is actually called CAMI. It is an independent car plant which now produces the Suzuki trucks, Equinox and Torrent.
You are right, the Sami's are getting rare to see on the roads these days due to that scourge, rust. They were cool little trucks with their Birfield front axles the same as Landcruisers.
Judging by the Toronto Autoshow I just went to, it would seem the number of smaller cars is going to jump. Toyota's Yaris hatch and sedan and popular Scion brand, Honda's Fit and new Civic. Chevrolet is selling Chevy Daewoo's, Kia's coming on strong in the Canadian market plus the ever getting better Hyundia.
Is this just a Canadian thing for smaller more economical cars due to our price of gas? Or is this trend also becoming apparent in the U.S as gas prices increase?
How long until the Chinese arrive with their $10,000.00 SUV. I wonder how their arrival in our markets will affect even Toyota and Honda.
ubbermotor: Whatever. Pontaic remains one of the top selling brands in the US.
Pontiac is not a top-selling brand anymore...as others have pointed out, it is a middling performer at best. And over 30 percent of its sales are to fleet customers.
ubbermotor: GM's current restructering plans put alot of focus on Pontaic.
Sorry, but is just not true. The only Pontiac that has a replacement in the works is the G6, and even that is up in the air. All other programs have been cancelled.
As GM's cash crunch tightens, the corporation is picking its battles more carefully. Saturn has potential, given its top-notch dealer network. Buick is successful in Asia.
Discontinuing Buick and Saturn would cause GM serious embarrassment. Saturn was hyped as GM's attempt at creating a "different kind of car company" that could take on the imports. Thanks to its warm-and-fuzzy dealers, it made headway at first, before GM starved it of product. If GM phases out Saturn, the media will have a field day trumpeting another GM failed attempt to take on the imports.
Buick is quite popular in China. Imagine the embarrassment that GM would face in phasing out an old-line American marque here in the United States while it remains popular in China, especially given the concern over the rise of China.
Pontiac, on the other hand, is a North American only marque whose sales appeal is dwindling in its home market. Right now Pontiac is GM's lowest priority.
The plan is for GM to see if it can steady its ship before earmarking any future investment for Pontiac. If not...adios, Pontiac. I doubt that things will turn around enough for GM to have enough cash to revive Pontiac. The big push to combine the Pontiac, GMC and Buick dealer networks will make it easier for GM to phase out either Buick or Pontiac, and for the reasons listed above, I put my money on Pontiac.
I didn't like the numbers game I got when I hit the showroof. What I agreed to was mysteriosly unfound. Their was no guarantee for a S60R in my ex/int colors. Long story pal, but becarful if do want one.
>At this point I'd place my money on Buick's survival. And I'll also bet that Pontiac joins Oldsmobile in that big garage in the sky by 2010.
Thanks, grbeck - that makes sense. I'd forgotten that China's favorite import is Buick. (Go figure, I guess some emporer from the past used them). I have no use for Pontiac, had 2 of them, disliked the 89, HATED the 99. They can unceremoniously go away and it won't bother me. I appreciate the info..... nv.
I hear the death-knell in the background now.... GM needs to consolidate models & divisions for sure, but they always go after their best selling cars to kill..... Is Chevy next?
I'd forgotten that China's favorite import is Buick
Well, the nameplate may be Buick, but a lot the cars are built in China or elsewhere outside of North America, and include cars not sold by the US Buick. Here's an excerpt from a GM press release about its Chinese operations, including the Buick division:
:Shanghai General Motors Co. Ltd. (Shanghai GM) is a 50-50 joint venture with Shanghai Automotive Industry Corporation Group (SAIC), a leading passenger car manufacturer in China. Shanghai GM was formed in June 1997. It is fully supported by a network of sales, aftersales and parts centers. Shanghai GM has an annual production capacity of 200,000 vehicles. It builds and sells a comprehensive range of products including the Buick Royaum premium sedan, Buick Regal upper-medium sedan, Buick Excelle lower-medium sedan, Buick Excelle HRV hatchback, Buick Sail small car, Buick S-RV recreational vehicle and Buick GL8 executive wagon. It also produces engines and transmissions.
Here's a link to the English-language version of the Buick China website, which will show you the model lineup: http://www.buick.com.cn/en/index.aspx
Bottom line: I would think that GM could readily kill off the Buick nameplate in the US, while also continuing to grow and develop it as its flagship brand in China.
If I was CEO, I'd brand all of GM's US fleet cars as Buicks and turn it exclusively into an old guy's brand (which it is, anyway), using it as a transition brand which would eventually get dumped while cleaning up the image of Chevy, Pontiac, etc. GM doesn't sell Vauxhalls in the US or Holdens in the US, so no need to worry about whether Buick prospers there while killing it off here.
The disadvantage of pushrod engines, is you cant muti-valve. (Well, cant might be a strong word, but kudos to the first engineer that makes it work).
Multi-valving increases airflow, increasing power and torque. If your not going to mutli-valve and engine your adding a more complex, expensive, less durable valve-train for no reason.
The "hemi" head design is more expensive than a traditional "wedge" head, but cheap compared to OHC, and increases airflow.
is actually a pent-roof design? I guess if an electronic system that could totally eliminate the rocker shafts was devised, where the valves were opened and closed electronically, then you might be able to go multi-valve with a "true" Hemi. But trying to make it work with rocker arms, I imagine, would be next to impossible since each of the 4 valves would be at a different angle.
One thing that's kinda interesting about the new Hemi, though...it's cheaper to build than the 4.7 SOHC V-8. That engine, in turn, was cheaper than the old 318 wedge it replaced. So, in effect, in this case somehow the Hemi came off cheaper than the wedge!
I wonder how they managed to make that work? The main reason Mopars started the switch from hemi to wedge in '58 was that the wedge was lighter, simpler, and cheaper to build.
Shame on Harley Earl, or whoever signed off on this. The interior would kill the deal if the outside didn't.
That's hilarious, thanks for the laugh. GM may be desperate, but digging up ol' Harley is probably not going to bring quite the inspiration they were hoping for.
I agree with you on the Lucerne's interior, BTW. I think they downmarketed it excessively as to not "cannibalize" the DTS' market, since the two cars roll off the same line.
Personally, I would be curious to see a LaCrosse GNX w/ the same V8 they're throwing into the Imp SS and GP GXP. The Lucerne isn't really my bucket of chicken, and ironically the front clip was stolen off my '03 Maxima.
you're the first person other than myself I've heard mention that the new Lucerne looks kinda like an '00-03 Maxima up front! I don't notice it quite so much in person, probbably because I'm just getting used to seeing the cars and now identify them as Buicks, but when the pics first came out, that was the FIRST thing I thought...a Buick Maxima!
I used to think the taillights looked kinda Cavalier-ish, too.
I wonder if the Northstar V-8 would fit under the hood of a LaCrosse? Or would the DOHC setup make it too bulky? While the 5.3 would be cool in that car, especially since it's supposed to be a step up from the Impala or Grand Prix, I think a Northstar would be better, since it would then associate the car more with the Lucerne and Caddy models that carry it.
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2018 430i Gran Coupe
Only the NA versions of the Mazda6 sedan, hatch, and wagon are built in Flat Rock along side the Ford Mustang. The MAZDASPEED6 is built in Japan along with the versions of the Mazda6 the rest of the world drives. So yes it is a UAW car but you have to be careful and read the sticker depending where you are.
I have a 2004 Mazda6 sedan and it is an EXCELLENT vehicle. I highly recommend it to anyone. When the lease is up on it I'll be buying or leasing a 2007 Mustang GT built in the same plant so obviously I don't have any problems with the quality of craftsmanship at that plant either.
and to top it off 99% of imports are just plain fugly
The last Electra rolled off the line in 85, I believe. It was an Electra 380 - the lower rung of the Park Avenue.
But, just to be fair - I went today and tried a Lucerne. Here's my honest assessment. And yes, I did like the Buick Brand. I bought a Skylark and a Park Avenue for my inlaws, and a LeSabre and a 2 Park Avenues, one of them an Ultra for my business. I'm 52, so youth and inexperience have nothing to do with my impressions of today's Buick.
1) Exterior - Nice from the side & front. Ford fired the designer of the 500, and evidently, Buick hired him/her, as the back is just as plain and non-descript as you can get. It is reminscent of the Camry from the side, but I don't mind it.
2) Interior - One thing I used to like about Buicks, was the dash and instrument panel were simple, but fairly ornate. In my 83 Park Avenue, the Park Avenue was in script on the passenger side of the dash, in the plood, and it lit up at night. Nice effect. Very nice. Well, they've certainly taken care of that! Could they possibly make the dash any plainer and more boring? I don't think so. You can only put so much gray plastic on that thing. Plood is scarce, only on the console. Hondas and Toyotas have much nicer looking dashes. If you've seen an Avalon lately, it murders this car inside in every respect. Shame on Harley Earl, or whoever signed off on this. The interior would kill the deal if the outside didn't.
The Northstar V-8 is nice - and about time. But the ancient 4 speed FWD gearbox is nothing to brag about. In other words, not much new here, or worth a look other than the engine.
If it were the Park Avenue - it would be a travesty - so I'm glad they renamed it something ubiquitous. That car will disappear into a sea of hydrofoam. GM has condemned Buick to death, just like Olds. But, they could use several fewer divisions. It's the only way they'll survive.
As to Ford vs. GM's survival? I'll take your bet. Frankly, I think they'll have to merge with each other, or somebody. That'll make things worse, I know, but it's the next step in their mutual demise.
OR, a LaCross, a Rendezvous, a ..............
Honda and Toyota are in my opinion the only auto manufacturers to build cars to last more than 10 years. In other words they design cars to be used cars not just to cater to the new car buyer. How many old Audi's have you seen on the road lately or even late 80's and early 90's Mercedes?
Actually, Pontiac is on the chopping block, according to insiders who regularly post on other websites. New products for the division have been quietly cancelled, or turned into simple rebadges of existing products (Cobalt-based Pontiac; Torrent). At this point the only confirmed new Pontiac is the G6 replacement, and even that one is iffy. Forget about a new GTO or reborn Firebird (as the autoextremist said is coming); those are dead.
Given that Buick is becoming a global brand (more Buicks are sold in Asia than in the U.S.), it makes sense for GM to slowly phase out a brand that only exists in North America, and is becoming increasingly irrelevant in even that market.
This is turning into a replay of what Oldsmobile went through before GM pulled the plug in December 2000.
At this point I'd place my money on Buick's survival. And I'll also bet that Pontiac joins Oldsmobile in that big garage in the sky by 2010.
http://www.saabusa.com/saabjsp/92x/index.jsp
No UAW wagons except for the Magnum.
However the 6wagon I'd reccommend
Rocky
My current thought is: 5-door, manual, larger than my current WRX, but not too huge, sporty, fast (not necessarily as fast as the WRX, but still enough to not regret the switch), good handling, "fun", well equipped in both safety (side impact airbags and curtains, fog lights, possibly stability control) and convenience and comfort features (perhaps HID, 6-CD, all power, sunroof, etc.). Price: from $20K to $35K, i.e. ready to pay more if it is worth it, but not attached to any price point at the moment.
When domestics (or their subsidiaries) come up with designs/layouts I like, I will not refuse them based on the nameplate. I will always look at their merits. However, it is still I who makes decision what the criteria and final grades are.
I kinda like Magnum from far away - from close a bit too big, and no manual. Perhaps if it sticks around, I may look at it in the round after next (or whatever it evolves into), when I'm past 40.
Dodge Caliber, especially in its anounced SRT-4 version may be of interest. At least some strong points.
However, as for what is available today, my choices will remain (in approximate order of preference): Subarus (Legacy, Outback, Impreza WRX), Mazda6 5-door or wagon, Audi A3, Saab 9-3 Sportswagon, Volvo V50 T5, Mazda3. All depends of financial circumstances at the time. If I get a big raise, Audi A4 Avant and BMW 325 xiT would be added, but for know I cannot justify buying/leasing $40K+ vehicle, even if I like it very much. There are also several announced cars that still remain vague, but may be very interesting depending on the execution: MazdaSpeed3, Dodge Caliber SRT-4.
Previous Ford Focus was my long favorite until they became clear they could not execute (plus my budget was increased). Current is already to "downscale" for me: if they bring something in shape and specs of previous SVT 5-door (or at least bring it in pair with its cousing, Mazda3), it would get back into the game.
I've got long list of wishes, but low hopes of them really materializing. The biggest would be MazdaSpeed6 Wagon/5door, which would be direct competitor to Legacy GT line, my current favorite (except they dropped manuals this year, but I hope they'll bring them back by the time I am ready to buy).
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Whatever. Pontaic remains one of the top selling brands in the US. GM's current restructering plans put alot of focus on Pontaic.
turned into simple rebadges of existing products
As apposed to like the very first Pontiac that was little more than a Chevy with Oakland trim? Or the Firebird, Ventura, Grand Am. (I'd say lemans but that was an F-85, and the Monte Carlo was actually a Grand Prix knock off.)
Come on, GM mastered cookie-cutter design eons ago.
You forgot Volvo. You can get a stick in the V50 and V70 wagons. They are not on the cheap side of course and are not UAW made, but US owned none the less.
As a second-stringer, Pontiac is strong, ahead of all the little Japanese companies as well as VW and all the luxury makes. But it is still barely holding even with Hyundai in the second string, and Kia is coming up fast.
GM needs to kill one or two more of its second stringers.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
If 6th out of 40 is poor I guess I’m out of line.
Am I missing something here?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Pontiac has been on its way down for years, now being passed by Hyundai, and probably by Kia as soon as 2010. It doesn't compete strongly with the mega-brands, in fact it is not even on the same order of magnitude as them, so calling it "one of the best-selling" brand is a little misleading, IMO. Does it really make a good case for its own preservation?
Yes, among the second string GM brands, it is the strongest. Maybe they should kill Buick and Saturn instead.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
In fact, Pontiac is beaten for sales by both Chrysler and Jeep, and SOUNDLY beaten by Dodge, which had over 1 million sales in 2005:
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/01/04/205077.html
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
This is a minor nitpick, but they called them Electra up through 1990. That final year the lineup was Electra Limited, Electra Park Avenue, Electra Park Avenue Ultra, and Electra T-type. Kinda silly IMO, calling an entry-level model "Limited". They probably could've gotten by just calling them Electra, Electra Limited, Electra Park Ave, and Electra T-type
In 1985, they were actually brazen enough to offer the 3.0 V-6 as the standard engine in these cars! I forget what the trim levels back then were, though.
In my 83 Park Avenue, the Park Avenue was in script on the passenger side of the dash, in the plood, and it lit up at night.
Okay, now I'm jealous. My Grandma's '85 LeSabre had that same dash, but where it said "LeSabre Limited" on it didn't light up at night. We were cheated! :P
I gotta admit, I actually like the Lucerne. The only thing I really DON'T like about it is the name. Makes me think of that cheap Safeway "Ice Milk" that my grandma used to buy back in the 70's.
Now judged in the context of the time they were produced, I like my grandma's '85 LeSabre better, or the '77-84 Electra, but I do like the Lucerne better than the LeSabre. I think I still liked the '97-05 Park Avenue better, though.
I think it's not quite the last Park Ave style nor the previous Jaguar like Park Ave. It's better than the practical LeSabre. I'd like to drive one now. I'll have to make time in my day to do that and drive an Accord and Carmry if I can fool the salesman into letting me drive one
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Buick; 186,140 cars, 282,288 total
Saturn; 105,927 cars, 213,657
Dodge; 312,221 cars, 1,179,008 total
Chysler; 382,977 cars, 649,293 total
Hyundai; 325,958 cars, 455,012 total
Kia; 146,395 cars, 271,851 total
Yes my list was based on cars only.
The Ninety-Eight was dropped after 1996, and replaced by a half-hearted Regency, which was an 88 with a Ninety-Eight front clip. Then the 88 was dropped after 1999, and the 2nd-gen Aurora came out as an early 2001 model, filling the shoes of both the 88, with the V-6 models, AND the previous Aurora with the V-8. I think it lost some prestige in that transition. And some exlusivity.
And now the Lucerne seems to be doing the same, replacing both the LeSabre with the V-6 models, and the Park Ave with the more luxurious, and V-8 models. It kind of makes me think of back in the old days, when they started putting Imperials back on Chrysler platforms, and they just didn't seem as exclusive.
Aaaarrrrghhhh! Good God what STUPID car!!! You brought back an unpleasant memory. I loved the Ninety-Eight! The half-(censored)Regency was an ersatz Ninety-Eight wannabe poseur!
I think part of it might be because they're fairly rare. They weren't popular when new, and nowadays I hardly ever see 'em. So when I do see one, it catches my eye.
Really? There's a good assortment of them around here. The '91-96 Olds 98 was the Old Lady Special (before Oldsmobile got all sporty, and they defected to Buick). Just sit outside the bank on the first Monday of the month when those gals come in to deposit their Social Security checks.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
My heart is still in cruiser land though and with the new Cruiser out it is only a matter of time until I get one.
the sami's were kind of popular for a bit, but i rarely see them anymore.
sorry, i got your post mixed up with 'bearsgv'.
You are right, the Sami's are getting rare to see on the roads these days due to that scourge, rust. They were cool little trucks with their Birfield front axles the same as Landcruisers.
Is this just a Canadian thing for smaller more economical cars due to our price of gas? Or is this trend also becoming apparent in the U.S as gas prices increase?
How long until the Chinese arrive with their $10,000.00 SUV. I wonder how their arrival in our markets will affect even Toyota and Honda.
Pontiac is not a top-selling brand anymore...as others have pointed out, it is a middling performer at best. And over 30 percent of its sales are to fleet customers.
ubbermotor: GM's current restructering plans put alot of focus on Pontaic.
Sorry, but is just not true. The only Pontiac that has a replacement in the works is the G6, and even that is up in the air. All other programs have been cancelled.
As GM's cash crunch tightens, the corporation is picking its battles more carefully. Saturn has potential, given its top-notch dealer network. Buick is successful in Asia.
Discontinuing Buick and Saturn would cause GM serious embarrassment. Saturn was hyped as GM's attempt at creating a "different kind of car company" that could take on the imports. Thanks to its warm-and-fuzzy dealers, it made headway at first, before GM starved it of product. If GM phases out Saturn, the media will have a field day trumpeting another GM failed attempt to take on the imports.
Buick is quite popular in China. Imagine the embarrassment that GM would face in phasing out an old-line American marque here in the United States while it remains popular in China, especially given the concern over the rise of China.
Pontiac, on the other hand, is a North American only marque whose sales appeal is dwindling in its home market. Right now Pontiac is GM's lowest priority.
The plan is for GM to see if it can steady its ship before earmarking any future investment for Pontiac. If not...adios, Pontiac. I doubt that things will turn around enough for GM to have enough cash to revive Pontiac. The big push to combine the Pontiac, GMC and Buick dealer networks will make it easier for GM to phase out either Buick or Pontiac, and for the reasons listed above, I put my money on Pontiac.
Thanks, grbeck - that makes sense. I'd forgotten that China's favorite import is Buick. (Go figure, I guess some emporer from the past used them). I have no use for Pontiac, had 2 of them, disliked the 89, HATED the 99. They can unceremoniously go away and it won't bother me. I appreciate the info..... nv.
Well, the nameplate may be Buick, but a lot the cars are built in China or elsewhere outside of North America, and include cars not sold by the US Buick. Here's an excerpt from a GM press release about its Chinese operations, including the Buick division:
:Shanghai General Motors Co. Ltd. (Shanghai GM) is a 50-50 joint venture with Shanghai Automotive Industry Corporation Group (SAIC), a leading passenger car manufacturer in China. Shanghai GM was formed in June 1997. It is fully supported by a network of sales, aftersales and parts centers. Shanghai GM has an annual production capacity of 200,000 vehicles. It builds and sells a comprehensive range of products including the Buick Royaum premium sedan, Buick Regal upper-medium sedan, Buick Excelle lower-medium sedan, Buick Excelle HRV hatchback, Buick Sail small car, Buick S-RV recreational vehicle and Buick GL8 executive wagon. It also produces engines and transmissions.
Here's a link to the English-language version of the Buick China website, which will show you the model lineup: http://www.buick.com.cn/en/index.aspx
Bottom line: I would think that GM could readily kill off the Buick nameplate in the US, while also continuing to grow and develop it as its flagship brand in China.
If I was CEO, I'd brand all of GM's US fleet cars as Buicks and turn it exclusively into an old guy's brand (which it is, anyway), using it as a transition brand which would eventually get dumped while cleaning up the image of Chevy, Pontiac, etc. GM doesn't sell Vauxhalls in the US or Holdens in the US, so no need to worry about whether Buick prospers there while killing it off here.
Multi-valving increases airflow, increasing power and torque. If your not going to mutli-valve and engine your adding a more complex, expensive, less durable valve-train for no reason.
The "hemi" head design is more expensive than a traditional "wedge" head, but cheap compared to OHC, and increases airflow.
One thing that's kinda interesting about the new Hemi, though...it's cheaper to build than the 4.7 SOHC V-8. That engine, in turn, was cheaper than the old 318 wedge it replaced. So, in effect, in this case somehow the Hemi came off cheaper than the wedge!
I wonder how they managed to make that work? The main reason Mopars started the switch from hemi to wedge in '58 was that the wedge was lighter, simpler, and cheaper to build.
They still slip up once in awhile.
"I just bought a new Toyota Tacoma, and put a TRD blower on it!"
:P
That's hilarious, thanks for the laugh. GM may be desperate, but digging up ol' Harley is probably not going to bring quite the inspiration they were hoping for.
I agree with you on the Lucerne's interior, BTW. I think they downmarketed it excessively as to not "cannibalize" the DTS' market, since the two cars roll off the same line.
Personally, I would be curious to see a LaCrosse GNX w/ the same V8 they're throwing into the Imp SS and GP GXP. The Lucerne isn't really my bucket of chicken, and ironically the front clip was stolen off my '03 Maxima.
Rocky
I used to think the taillights looked kinda Cavalier-ish, too.
I wonder if the Northstar V-8 would fit under the hood of a LaCrosse? Or would the DOHC setup make it too bulky? While the 5.3 would be cool in that car, especially since it's supposed to be a step up from the Impala or Grand Prix, I think a Northstar would be better, since it would then associate the car more with the Lucerne and Caddy models that carry it.