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Comments
In your original post, you said hydrogen would never happen. I think bioextraction has promise and eventually it will. I never said anything about technology being ready now - although there is a fairly large private/CalTech project under way as we write.
2. So we're going to plant up Arizona with corn or grass to generate ethanol? Where does the water come from?
You misread my post. I was suggesting another source of hydrogen extraction will be photovalic power grids in the Desert South West providing energy to extract hydrogen.
but where is the US focus on this? I didn't hear GM or Bush announce the level of concerted program or focus that would make any appreciable dent in thep problem. Otherwise it's just wishful thinking.
Actually, this is an area where the government is not necessary. There is a large Canadian company that already has a private initiative underway to make ethanol from agricultural chaffe. If the test project in Canada works, it is already underway to start on a larger scale in the US.
What do you mean reasonable??? I have a 2007 Camry Hybrid with 38+mpg average on the first 1300 miles, it seats 4 very comfortably, and has good performance. What's unreasonable about that? The Big
32 certainly don't offer anything like this.I would think something more economically feasible. Currently I wouldn't touch a hybrid.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I just don't feel the Hybrid thing is our best long term solution, and as bright as our engineers are becoming, something simpler, less expensive, with no huge batteries should come around someday.
I don't follow you. What do you consider economically feasible. Are you talking about on a personal level or for the country?
Speaking on a personal level, My TCH has an MSRM that is about the same as the V6SE, both being comparibly equiped. I can get the V6 at a $2000 discount, but pay MSRP for the Hybrid. However I'm getting $6300 in State and Federal Tax Credits on the TCH so that makes it ultimately $4300 cheaper. In addition I'm getting 38 mpg as opposed to around 25 fot the V6. However compared to the vehicle I traded it's saving me $170/month on gasoline and $200/mo on payment.
Perhaps I don't understand your idea of economically feasible.
Those figures just don't sound right
Because the extra $30-35 a month the average driver will save in the Hybrid (You would have to drive almost 3700 miles a month all city driving to save $170 a month over a I-4 model) doesn't cover the extra cost (even with the tax credit) of going for the Hybrid model over a more reasonably priced non hybrid with the same (or close) equipment.
And thats if (a big if) EPA estimates for the Hybrid are as close as for the ICE.
It just doesn't make economic sense, but if you want to waste your money go for it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I didn't buy this to save money I bought it to save gas. The cars I would have considered other than this were all $37000 to $45000.
Reguardless, unless you make too much money that you can't use the tax credit (due to the AMT) I can't see how you would call this uneconomical. Had I not bought the loaded one I would have been able to get a base Hybrid less tax credits for around $20,000.
Oh, I just noticed this is the GM/Ford forum. I shouldn't expect you to understand this. Good luck with your HHR.
Seriously, A Hyundai???? You drive a Hyundai? Why would you even be looking at an automotive post???
I've even more incredibly amazed that you're a CPA with an advanced degree working in FINANCE?
With your judgement and analysis I wouldn't trust you with my piggy bank
Sedan hybrids are coming from GM and Ford next year, Based on the projected mileage of the Vue Greenline the mileage for the Aura/Malibu with the same system shold be about 27/38 which isnt as good as the camry, but both cars are likely to be cheaper and faster than the camry.
Saving gas was not my ONLY mission. There is no way I would drive some small economy car. I would never have even traded my FX45 for a regular Camry, perhaps an ES350, but not a camry.
The mileage gain between four cylinder camrys and accords and their hybrid counterparts is minimal. Maybe 3-5mpg overall.
I'll go back to my hybrid forums where it's understood. Yes a 4c can get 33 on the highway, but it will probably average much more than 26 mpg. I'm averaging 38 mpg. That's not insignificant. The fact that I'm doing it in a mid size sedan is even more significant.
As you can see from my other posts there won't be a GM or Ford in my garage again, at least not until the hurt wears off and I can forget the pain of ownership.
The Camry was probably the minimum level of comfort and luxury that I would have considered. I don't need a cheap car and I enjoy driving with the leather, the Nav system and the JBL stereo.
Yes that is my daily drive (my wife has one also) it has been the most trouble free car I have ever had (131K miles before even one issue) so you can't beat that.
You know I really should update that profile since I bought a CTS-V since then (again I paid cash) and I have a Zephyr that I bought as an investment (trying to restore).
I've even more incredibly amazed that you're a CPA with an advanced degree working in FINANCE?
Why is that? Two reasons I bought them, 1.) the price was right (I pay cash for everything) and two I didn't want to spend to much on a depreciating asset (good for a person working in finance) especially since I was driving over 30K/mile at the time.
Most likely I will drive it until the wheels fall off then put the wheels back on and drive it some more.
With your judgement and analysis I wouldn't trust you with my piggy bank
Thats fine, many people do trust me. Usually to reduce their expenses and improve their financial position. Many people have been very successful using my advice,
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You are hard to figure though. You buy a Hyundai which I would expect is natural for a financial guy, but then you tell me you have a CTS-V. You don't want to spend too much on a depreciaing asset? You surely don't consider the CTS-V an investment?
I would consider the CTS-V as one of those items that, you would not try to economically justify. You might even say go ahead and waste your money if I were to tell you I wanted to buy one.
My hybrid is a vehicle I decided to get (possibly like many of your clients working on reducing expenses), to reduce my expenses as well. I liked my FX45 but it was just sitting around and I wanted an economy car (much like your Hyundai). I'm tired of new vehicles with high depreciation, poor quality and now the big 3 are starting a horsepower war again. I decided to just get out of this rat race and concentrate on getting ready for retirement and helping my kids.
Actually I would now trust you with my piggy bank
I do that a lot, but then a lot of people don't like when you show them how much money they waste. I get a lot of resistance from couples that make 100K+ that buy lexus' and BMW's and live in great big houses and take trips to various exotic locations when I tell them they are wasting money. Of course they are and their golden years will be spent working at walmart because they haven't properly planed their finances.
You surely don't consider the CTS-V an investment?
No and it is an occasional use car only, when me and the wife go out for the evening, or to social events and the like. I put very few miles on it and it should last a very long time. Plus it was a great deal, deal of a century type thing
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
GM,Ford,Toyota,who will sell you your next car!!!!!!
Exactly - I think wvgasguy is a fool for paying the money they want for a Hybrid- unless he drives about 100,000 miles a year. Then, his Camry may pay him back over a 4Cyl Gas Camry.... Otherwise, he's thrown a way his money to feel good. Do the math, Hybrids do not yet make economic sense - then there's the weight that's added from the power module plus the batteries - disposal of batteries effect on the environment, replacement cost of same - I wouldn't touch today's hybrids either. They remind me an Oldsmobile Diesel. About as good an idea, no matter who is making them.
So short term, they may not make sense, but on a more long term, and possibly more altruistic level, perhaps they do?
Now real world driving. There is no valid comparison other than to take two vehicles over exactly the same routes over a statistically valid set of miles ( tests ) and alternate the drivers exactly on schedule in orde to make that variable a 'constant' It's very difficult to do but it might be possible.
There is no way to compare 'real world' results except anecdotally. You might be a much more capable driver than I in squeezing out the last ounce of FE from any vehicle you drive. OTOH if you are located in MN and I am in San Diego then over all I probably will get better results due to the lack of winter driving.
Without a resource like GreenHybrid for example which compiles millions of data points into a statistically valid chart ( assuming of course good faith :surprise: ) all the arguments boil down to 'Who's the best centerfielder in NY?'.
Would that open your eyes to a new world?
Would the buyers of ICE vehicle be wasting their money? Interesting concept..
Your viewpoint is too narrow. And your opinions are not based in fact. But they do fall into conformity with the prevailing view of many at this time. Unsure, uninformed, curious but somewhat threatened by the unknown.
If you did some research here or even googled for a couple of hours you might find out that:
a) some hybrids are less expensive than their ICE-only counterparts. :surprise:
b) battery replacement is a non-issue.
c) NiMH batteries are no more of a 'hazard' to the environment than say a washing machine. :surprise:
d) despite CR's major 'Ooops' this year, several hybrids do make economic sense.
But the new and different aren't for everyone. Some always wait behind, which is OK also.
Toyota could sell the hybrids at a loss and still make money over the long haul. They know the added hybrid complexity will feed the cash register somewhere down the road. As many have said Toyota is here for a long time to come. They will be happy to sell you parts for more than they are worth when the warranty expires. Ask the man that knows about over priced parts from Toyota/Lexus dealers.
What is the major "Oops" you mention from CR?
Oh I have to say this - If ifs and buts were candy and nuts.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Too, battery life is still a real issue. I put 175,000 - 200,000 miles on a car in about 3 years & can't justify a hybrid on gas saavings; and when faced with the potential cost of battery replacement during ownership, the ICE or diesel makes a lot more economic sense for me until the hybrids have a longer history.
Bioextraction has not been mentioned as a likely approach in any reports I've heard of, and sounds a long way off, if ever.
We could use solar conversion, but the amount of land required to make a significant dent in our energy dependency is substantial. There are already environmentalists complaining about windmills in areas harnessing wind power.
Hydrogen is not really a fuel so much as an energy storage mechanism. The energy still has to come from somwhere, and solar energy would require thousands of square miles to make a large impact on the quantity of energy we are consuming today with oil.
I guess time will tell?!
They had to issue a retraction and correction. Now there are three.
It doesn't reflect well though based on your normally astute analysis.
The Camry hybrid 'XLE' trim is $1000 less than the Camry ICE V6 XLE trim.
Battery concerns: Again...
This is precisely my point.
There was a whole thread about batteries here. In additon,
the Prius, Camry Hybrid, Highlander Hybrid and Diesel vs Hybrid boards here are full of data and specific references to sites where one can research this subject and form an opinion based on facts.
But for most it's easier ( and less threatening )to listen to Rush, to read unsubstantiated hearsay on boards like here or to listen to know-it-alls over the water cooler than to do the research ones self.
Reality:
This is the truth to which s-w made reference. For a strapped or budget conscious person/family there is no reason economically to buy any hybrid or for that fact any $20+ auto/van/SUV. There is no payback - ever. It's usually better to buy a good preowned vehicle and save thousands or even tens of thousands of dollars in transportation appliance costs.
One buys a vehicle because it suits them and their needs.
the style is appealing;
the features attract them;
the safety features make them feel secure;
they appreciate the performance and handling of the vehicle;
the vehicle is comfortable to drive;
the price in in the range that they expect to pay;
- Oh BTW in the case of hybrids an owner will save money on fuel and leave a smaller imprint on the environment than using a normal gasser.
Battery life is not an issue unless one refuses to do any research then it is a concern for the uninformed.
I'm crunching numbers on the Civic hybrid vs Civic EX auto (I think they're pretty equivalent). Using 20,000 miles, $3.30/gal gasoline, and their EPA rated mileages (50 vs 40), it takes 8.76 years to break even.
That's without a tax break, which is common at the moment and can wipe out most or all the cost difference right away. That's assuming $3.30/gal gasoline eight years from now. I know many Civic hybrid drivers are only getting around 45mpg, but some Civic EX drivers are only getting 36mpg - same percentage difference. I can also see that if you drive an average number of miles per year, hybrids won't save you money. But that leaves a very large population of many-mile drivers. (Including taxi drivers in a few cities who've driven their Priuses into the six digits, without any battery problems.)
So apart from the techie and green niches, hybrids should make sense to long-distance drivers. The battery thing may affect their resale value, but typical long-haul fleet cars aren't known for great resale values either.
Please do not turn this into a discussion about other users.
BTW thanks for the complement.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Performance: TCH Camry has about 187 hp and 0-60 times under 9 sec. Not as fast as the top performers now but about the same as most V6's.
Reliability: It's a Camry; The hybrid technology has been in existence for 10 yrs now. There seem to be few, if any reports of failures.
Batteries: see post above. They never need to be replaced. Toyota states that with normal care they should last '..the life of the vehicle' which in the case of most Toyota's is 200,000 to 300,000 miles.
Scrap: It costs nothing to the owner; actually Toyota pays a bounty of $200 per battery to the the 'scrapper'. The number to call Toyota is imprinted on the battery.
The environmental cost of a 'non-returned' battery is about the same as that of a washing machine. There are no toxic materials in the NiMH battery. It is nothing like a lead acid battery.
Another thing to consider other than the battery issue is that the drivetrain of hybrids are far more complicated than you would find in a typical ICE car. This could lead to more frequent and/or more costly repairs.
Using the figures you cited it seems that the hybrid saves $27.50/month in gas. my question then is the owner paying more than that in monthly payments due to a higher cost?
As for the tax break have they come out with what each car will get in the tax break? last time I checked it was still open as to what each one will get.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Camry XLE V6 ( loaded ): $31500
Camry TCH (same features): $30500
No subsidies or rebates taken into account.
Essentially the very hot XLE V6 is $1000 more expensive than it's hybrid sibling, with the same equipment, due to it having more horsepower and being quicker. The hybrid version though is about 35% more fuel efficient. Take your pick.
No sure about that I see a lot of V-6's out doing the 9 second time these days.
Reliability: It's a Camry;
So? Its really not that much more reliable than many cars out there today (remember engine sludge).
The hybrid technology has been in existence for 10 yrs now. There seem to be few, if any reports of failures.
I seem to remember the Prius having stalling issues. Plus lets talk when we have a sizeable number of hybrids with over 200K on them.
Batteries: see post above. They never need to be replaced. Toyota states that with normal care they should last '..the life of the vehicle' which in the case of most Toyota's is 200,000 to 300,000 miles.
I have read more than one case of hybrids needing battery replacements (and a few at under 100K).
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Actually the cost to maintain an HSD vehicle is less than a comparable ICE only vehicle due primarily to a more relaxed driving style normally. Brakes are being reported to last over 100,000 miles without having to be replaced YMMV. The HSD system needs little or no maintenance ever... as in zero dollars...and..at least two insurance companies are offering 10% discounts on hybrid vehicles.
Using the figures you cited it seems that the hybrid saves $27.50/month in gas. my question then is the owner paying more than that in monthly payments due to a higher cost?
No actually the owner is paying less initially so the savings in fuel are just extra money in the pocket.
As for the tax break have they come out with what each car will get in the tax break? last time I checked it was still open as to what each one will get.
On this I'd expect you of all of us to be fully aware.
http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=156381,00.html
AMT does reduce or eliminate the credit though.
That being said I would be more inclined to compare it to a lesser trim and a 4 cylinder before the top of the line camry
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
When for lack of data or lack of better info, then argue from the particular to the general ( known fallacy ). In all comparisons, as you well know, the Camry is at the top or near it in terms of reliability and in being the least costly to own.
Your internal data bank is about 3 yrs out of date. There are already well in excess of 200K HSD vehicles on the road right now. Many are well in excess of 100K miles in just 5 yrs.
C'mon get up to date snake.. The world has already changed.
This TCH was planned 8-10 yrs ago with a view to being the vehicle that 'mainstreamed' hybrid technology in the US.
It's less expensive than it's new more powerful sibling;
It has the same performance as the '06 Camry V6 and far more features than any Camry before it;
It gets the fuel economy of a Corolla.
BTW no new Camry ( and most new Toyota's ) require anything more than fluid and filters now - for life. In some places the fluids are free for life as well.
'Lower than an ICE V6? A hybrid? This I gotta see.' Mission accomplished
You could also compare an Avalon to a Corolla. It's not logical but you could do it.
For certain at the moment the TCH is hot and is going for sticker. However the XLE is also very hot due to the remarkable V6 in it, whether it's sticker or $100 off or $1000 off is unreliable and ancecdotal evidence - at this time.
Rocky
You guys are way off topic here.
If I like hybrid, I would buy a Camry Hybrid. If I don't, I would buy a Camry SE. It's that simple. No way I would ever buy that ugly Malibu.
In the compact/midsize segment, Toyota/Honda beat the crap outta the big 2.5 in North America and in the whole world. In the luxury segment, it's Lexus plus German offerings.
I would say Lexus and Cadillac are the best values in the luxury segment. Maintenance and reliability issues are going to keep me far from the Germans.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I think anything in the 36 to 50 mpg range really needs to be about vehicle preference because the extra savings in fuel when you're already at this level is insignificant. If $23 IS significant then I doubt (just from what I've been reading here-no actual research on pricing) that you'd have the money to purchase a Honda Hybrid anyway.
One thing I really don't understand about Honda, why when you go to look at one they have none in stock and the next truck load is already sold. I know the obsvious answer, they sell easy. The question then is why doesn't Honda make more of them available in order to make more money?