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Comments
You ask me this question the consumer?, you may be better off addressing this question to the american automaker.
Well since the products have been inferior for so long now, i dont think i have a choice but to make that comment. And until its proven otherwise i will continue to do business with yota.
Without even addressing the fact the dual phase hybrid system will be lighter, have fewer parts and allow for greater design flexibility?
Sounds like the same sort of stubborn loyalty people say the US only buyers have.
Cadillac's weakest link is the 4 year old CTS and that will be replaced next year. The SRX is getting an update this year for 2007. The DTS and Escalade are new and the STS is two years old. I dont see any glaring holes in the lineup. It doesnt sell as well as Lexus but it gets more respect from the automotive press and styling/driving enthusiasts. Just like Lexus built a brand from scratch in 1989, GM has basically done the same with Caddy since 2001. BTW, there are often deals to be had on cars comparable to the STS but they are ususally in the form of dealer cash and special lease rates. Dont think you can get a deal on a M45 or RL right now.
Not only does the STS look better than the LS430, it's sportier, has almost all the same features, offers AWD and is cheaper to boot. A slightly better interior design isnt enough to overcome those facts in my mind.
Mine is the rolling genset model. It is nice for that. I would not have bought it if it was not exactly what I wanted otherwise. The hybrid system was a gimme. I think they only sold about 300 in CA only. I like the 5.3L V8 very much. It pulls my utility trailer loaded with ease. More power than the 5.7L Suburban it replaced. Just not near the EPA estimates for mileage. No different than any other hybrid in that respect. It is very quiet and I love the XM and Bose sound system. I will sell it and get a diesel PU from the first maker that offers one in a midsize or 1/2 ton.
That is a helpful system, and as you say has its merits.
GM, BMW and Daimler have finished r&d on a new dual phase system. The first consumer sales of the system will be in the new Silverado and the other new GM trucks starting next year.
The dual phase should bump up mpgs over what you are getting on your system.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Your talk about the two phase hybrid sounds nice, but given the track record I think we should wait to see....
The current Pilot IS the first Pilot.
Of course, you are somewhat correct. Trucks, for example. Toyota has taken a number of iterations to get the larger trucks close to "right".
So how is it that GM, with at least 40 years MORE experience in this market, still fails so miserably at cars?
The real decision was in which truck to buy, and ultimately the deciding factor was that the Ford Dealer offered me more for my trade.
Now, for our next car, it will probably be my wife's decision, and I imagine it will be a Honda Odyssey Minivan. We've looked at different vans in the past and the Honda just always seems to come out on top. The Nissan Quest may be a contender with the changes scheduled for 2007, and the Toyota Sienna is a close third. But again, when the time comes to trade, I'm sure price and trade in value will weigh heavily in the decision.
You weren't worried about the price of gas at all?
And hey, as to the above comment, the Celica and MR2 were widely celebrated at various times in their long careers.
Would that the domestics had many model lines as long as Celica's. The Mustang is the only one that comes to mind among the cars. Some of the others come close, but have gaps in their lineage IIRC.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Interesting, most people with that view on a car do not drive a Lexus
Do you mean in Japan or US? If you mean Japan, I may agree that their tarrifs are unfair, but please don't tell me they are the reason that Tahoe or even Cavalier don't sell there. If you mean US market, I could not disagree more.
Japanese make killing in the US for becoause of their product, marketing strategy and better understanding of current consumer needs, not some misique unfair advantages. If anything, Detroit had all chips and simply slowly gave them away, due to arrogance, misplaced bets, just not listening to anybody but their own farts. When they realized they were using, they concentrated their efforts not on themselves, but they were trying to persuade the dealer to change rules of the game, citing all their previous contributions to the payroll of the casino. Fortunately the owner said they'd rather take care of the consumer side, not the manufacturer.
Even if I personally would not buy any Toyota vehicle, I can see it is the right one for most of people I know. Every time Detroit is asked to change anything they always find someone else to blame and talk about the glory past when there was no foreign competition.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
One of the reasons I wanted to trade the Mountaineer was because it got no better gas mileage than a full-sized truck, so in essence I was not taking a backward step on gas mileage. A second reason was that with the nature of my work, a lot of my mileage is reimbursed, so again, it doesn't cost me any more. Another issue was that while the Ranger I sold did get better gas mileage, it was showing it's age at 242,000 miles. I'd already started spending money on it and while I'm pretty sure it was up to any road trip I might have wanted to take, I was just not completely confident in it.
On a monthly basis, the new truck is not really costing me any more to drive. The insurance I'm no longer paying on the Ranger makes up the difference between the premium on the Mountaineer and the F-150. The tag cost me no more for the truck than for the Mountaineer. Our Mountaineer had the quad-seating option, so I couldn't carry any more passengers than in the truck.
And above all else, you have to remember:
There's something women like about a pickup man! :P
Interesting, most people with that view on a car do not drive a Lexus
Not necessarily, my lexus serves its purpose, its an extremely well built machine, that transports me from point a to b, it just does so in a reliable manner as well as being comfortable, quiet, and quick. A good appliance i guess.!
That's like saying a Rolex is a good watch. Sorry (I have one of those too) but a Lexus is to Appliance cars like a Rolex is to a Timex. Both perform well and do the same thing but one is an extravagance.
No critism here though, I like well built appliances.
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So how much longer do i owe the "US AUTOMAKERS" to make a better product. Im not blind i can cleary see the difference between say a camry and a malibu. What do you want me to do ? The us automakers have just as much technology and know how as the next carmaker if not more, so if they want to just rest on there laurels and make just adequate products, then i will just not consider them. GM, ford, chrysler have been promising and promising and promising to become more competitve yet when they release a new vehicle it only seems to be able to compete with the last generation of a foreign vehicle. Well for me this is unacceptable, especially when im spending my hard earned dollars for the purchase. So trust me, i have an open mind, but with the given choices, i feel i have no other choice but to purchase the best product for my money.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I will stand by my assessment that Ford builds the best trucks on the market. Kudos to your rig for such dependable service. My fathers "Workhorse" 96' Bronco EB is about to turn 200k and just had a fuel pump change but other than that it has been B/T/O, nothing else.
Incidentally, long for me is any period of time greater than three years.
My hope is to pay off the truck early and drive it at least five years if not longer. We'll see!
Yeah, I have had 2 Rolexes. Since they have enormous cuff appeal, but keep lousy time, I would equate them more with Mercedes.
An expensive Seiko would be more like a Lexus to me - keeps perfect time, you don't have to shake your wrist to keep it running, and it does its job flawlessly - but has less cuff appeal over dinner...... :P
The GM two mode hybrid has been fully explained and it is real. The Tahoe Hybrid was unveiled at Detroit and will be out next year with 25% better fuel economy. Why don't you go and read about the technology before you dismiss it as some trumped up GM pipe dream. It is real and you need to accept that. I dont get why people like you get so much self satisfaction by (incorrectly) stating that GM has never done anything right and never will. Do you really think MB and BMW would cosign on technology that isnt legit? JUst think, in the future BMWs will be using a hybrid system that was primarily developed by GM engineers. Not surprising since BMW used to feature GM 5 speed autos.
First off, I own a Lexus, but I also own 2 Ford products, so I'm not anti-American. I do however, admit a bias against GM these days. Here's what my moronic, uneducated, limosine riding, wine sipping, NPR listening opinion is:
I've tried 'em, and no I don't think anything you listed up above are very compelling alternatives to the Japanese competition except for, the Fusion might be, the Cadillac XLR and Corvette are in a class by themselves. No, the new GM SUVs are ONLY good looking, that's all they are. They still have that ridiculous 3rd seat you have to take out and leave at the antique store to put your new desk inside, and then come back for the seat later. Or, I guess you could strap it on the roof..... There's no new technology in there. The Lucerne is butt uglier than the beautiful Park Avenue it replaced, IMO. The name is awful too. Park Avenue said American Success. Lucerne is a French city!!! How American!!
Yes, I think the GS is superior to the STS. Not faster, better though. If it's all about speed, get the Caddy.
IMO, Ford still has the best designed SUVs. Not the best made, but the best designed and engineered. The Tahoe/Yukon don't compete with the Titan, (though they may be better than the Sequoia now), they do compete with the Armada, but only best it in looks.
Again, the Armada is designed like the Fords, and are much more functional.
We're in trouble guys.....I think we're done. Our glory days in the car bidness are over. :sick:
That statement sums you up pretty well. For those who think of a car like a toaster Toyota is the logical choice. It's safe, predictable, boring and ubiquitous. That reminds me why I can't stand most Toyota products. I dont want to spedn $25K+ on something and then think of it the same way I think of my fridge. Styling may be subjective but I want to know it what world is a G6 with 18" wheels not more attractive than a Camry or any other Toyota sedan? The Malibu and Impala arent any better looking than the camry but for some reason they get criticized and the camry gets a free pass. The new camry looks good for a Toyota, I will say that. I dont think they can do much better than that so I dont where they are going to go from here in terms of design.
I would also like to know what gives you the impression that the Big 3 dont care about quality. HAve you ever seen any reliability info not printed in consumer reports magazine? Obviously you haven't but maybe you should. Many american cars rank higher than Toyota/Honda models in initial and 3 year quality. I know what you are going to say: "but what about 7 years down the road when that domestic product is falling apart". Look, they dont do survey with vehicles of that age right now so I have to go on the data that is out there. I would guess that a car that is reliable after three years in probably on it's way to being reliable for the long haul.
BTW, since domestics are always inferior I was wondering why they have been offering XM radio for two or three years and Toyota still doesnt offer it. When is Toyota going to offer Onstar? Remote start? RWD in affordable sedans? Compelling styling?
Can you tell me why vehicles like the STS, XLR, Caddy V series, DTS, 300, Charger, Aura, Tahoe, GTO, Mustang, C6 vette, Fusion, Grand Prix GXP, Impala, etc are totally unacceptable in your eyes? I would really like to know. Once you explain that I would like to know why vehicles like the Altima, Element, Sequoia, Sentra, Tundra, Armada, Corolla, Scion xB, Highlander, Pilot, 4Runner, etc would be consider compelling vehicles that are far superior to similar domestic.
The Japanese have been here a long time and it's not my fault they continue to build dull (but reliable) automotive appliances that have no appeal to automotive enthusiasts like myself.
Again, the Armada is designed like the Fords, and are much more functional. "
The ONLY weakness of the GM SUVS is the solid rear axle. If stowing the third row seat is the only criteria you have for judging an SUV then you should get the Expedition. The GM SUVS have better interiors than EVERY full size SUV on the market, they offer more features and get better fuel economy. I would love to know how you determined that they have no advantages over the Armade other than looks. The Armada's interior is no better than the 2002 Altima's and that aint a good thing.
You dont like the Lucerne because of the name? WOuld you by it if it was called TL or ES350? The Lucerne is an attractive car and almost every review I have seen confirms that sentiment. When all else fails, you can always say its a bad car because of it's name.
"I do however, admit a bias against GM these days."
That explains a lot about what I am reading. I dont know why you would bother to try and make reasonable arguments if you can admit that you dont like GM and thus you arent going to evaluate their products objectively.
BTW, there is no way the Fusion is the best domestic midsize sedan to compare to the Camry. The Impala, Aura and G6 are all better qualified in terms of performance, refinement and feature content. The Aura and 2007 G6 are better than the Fusion in every conceivable way.
"No, the new GM SUVs are ONLY good looking, that's all they are."
Based on what? Please clarify. Class leading powertrains, fuel economy, feature content, handling, steering and interior design dont count? Of course they dont when those features are on a GM vehicle. What was I thinking?
Maybe after a few years the GM utes can be as good a the Sequoia. I think it gets 17mpg on the highway with a 4.7L DOHC V8 and weighs hundreds of pounds less than the GM SUVs. If I'm not mistaken it has a solid rear axle as well.
Lexus has used OnStar for years, under the brand of Lexus Link. It's a separate corner in the OnStar building in Detroit with a couple of dedicated employees, but it's the OnStar system. They're dropping it due to lack of interest and subscriptions by Lexus owners in 07. I'm not thrilled by that, but it's true. And honestly, I'm subscribed, but have NEVER used it. With the Navigation in the car, and no breakdowns, and fortunately no accidents, I've never had the need.
As for quality - JD Power checks initial quality and 3 year old reliability. A LeSabre that ranks #2 in initial quality means it's screwed together well. So be it. That doesn't mean there is "quality" in there, it can be as cheap feeling as a Kia, but functionally work. Initial quality is about number of defects only.
Long term 3year reliability tells you more. GM and Ford cars will last 3 years, they're all still under warranty.
But who's cars will run for 10 years and 150,000 miles? The fact of the matter is, your average Toyota and Honda will outperform anything else in a 10 year contest. That's not to say a Lincoln Town Car won't do well, but a Lexus will too, and nothing Toyota makes won't. Lots of stuff Ford makes won't do that well on the whole.
However, all three are HUGE companies with HUGER factories to be filled and frankly there aren't many true auto enthusiasts. The few of you that there are will buy and enjoy these products but after 18 mo's the supply of those who truly do love them, and more importantly have the money to buy them, runs out and the plants go empty.
GM and the other detroiters are appealing to an increasingly marginal group of buyers where they need to be hitting single, after single, after single to keep the rally going. One Home Run per game is still only one run and no team wins scoring one run a game.
There just aren't enough of you to support GM and they have missed the fact that the HUGEST part of the buying public wants appliances. That's where all the money is now.
There are some, but they are fewer all the time who buy American because they LOVE the product.. I have one friend, loyal Toyota fan who bought a Mustang, because they were so fabulous looking, and she's very happy with it so far. She had never in her life bought American again, so far, she's a new Ford fan....But people who go BACK to GM or Ford are very rare these days. Once lost, they are often lost forever.
The loyal customers are ours to lose - and we're losing them GREAT!
I can understand if you are driving an early 90s LS400 or SC400. Lexus has headed down hill since with cars just as ugly as any other car maker. Lexus does not have a car in their fleet that I could like or my wife would trade her 1990 LS400 for straight across. Put in simple terms the new Lexus look like cheap crap. Not many cars on the lots today that I would write a check for. The LX470 is still a decent looking SUV.
For me it's not about unacceptable, it's about better suiting my needs/desires. Each time I come and look at the entire market. I don't actually dismiss anything based on the nameplate - I just eliminate by body type, engine/transmission offerings, technology, reliability, price, etc. I like cars designed and packaged certain way - for that reason alone I am not likely to buy GM or Toyota. I may consider some Chrysler or Ford offering, but so far they come short overall (close, but not quite there). VW (which I used to like) just kills itself by reliability, BMW and Audi by their price. This basically leaves me with Mazda, Honda and Subaru. Last time I chose the third one cause I just loved AWD wagon with manual.
What I just can't to grasp is that anger on any dissenting opinion. Allright - we hear you; GM is great, Ford is crap. Why is it so threatening to you that someone else may have think otherwise and dares to express that?
2018 430i Gran Coupe
If you find yourself typing a post, and you feel like you just HAVE to add that little personal zinger in there... please DON'T.
I didn't say that. However, most of their cars in the last 20 years have been sub par. Do you disagree? The market seems to agree with me, as their share is continuously declining - even with fire sale prices. I know those cars are very appealing to Hertz and Avis.
The GM two mode hybrid has been fully explained and it is real. The Tahoe Hybrid was unveiled at Detroit and will be out next year with 25% better fuel economy. Why don't you go and read about the technology before you dismiss it as some trumped up GM pipe dream. It is real and you need to accept that.
My skepticism is warranted. I read about how good the Quad4 engine was going to be. The V8-6-4 was going to revolutionary. Let's not forget the GM minivans. The G6 was going to be groundbreaking. The Cobalt was going to be the great new redesign after all those Cavalier years. That's what we get after all the high-profit SUV boom years. Do you consider the recent cars to be world class, better than the Civic/Accord/Camry?
The GM hybrid technology may very well be excellent. It's just that we've heard so many promises for so long that it's good to wait and see it, not in an article, but as a real product that can be driven.
Oh wait, what about the Impala?
Crude.
or the HHR?
Late, PT Cruiser copy.
or the new Tahoe? Or the vette?
GM does well with these two. I guess they've given up on the traditional sedan market.
I'm most definately one of them and you can put that LOVE in a passionate red 72-point bold italicized, underlined font! I love my Cadillacs and Buicks with the white-hot intensity of a thousand suns!
They do well across the large SUV & PU market. Why should they mess with low profit cars? Let the competition beat their brains out making nickels and dimes on CamCords & CorVics. Save their time & money and concentrate on continuing as the best in the segment they dominate. GM needs to do something in the midsize truck market to slow down the Taco onslaught. The Tundra is years from truly competing in the fullsize PU segment.
Lots of reasons:
1. Brand loyalty - a professional who hated their Cavalier or Cobalt during their college years is not likely to get into a Tahoe any time soon. In reverse, someone who loved their Corrolla, will likely to go for Sequoia.
2. Gas prices - thinking as above got GM and Ford in the current mess - they became so vulnerable that even 50 cent hike in gas price sent them billions in red due to Employee discount and other fire sales.
3. Pride - you cannot consider yourself a full line company, if half of your lineup stinks and needs to be sold at a loss to fleets.
4. Know how - whan you are this size, having good R&D committed in the entire lineup is likely to bring you more unexpected benefits from tech flow between the segments.
5. Diversity (related to 2.) - giving up on large segments makes you very vulnerable to customer demand swings - those swings happen due to reasons beyond anybody's control - gas prices was one, another one I can think of may be a major breakthrough in technology that happens in one segment that is not contested by you.
Detroit has behaved like they were above market or like they were in full control of the market demand. Their belief in silver bullet of creating demand through marketing was unshaken until last year.
As much as I do not like Toyota's marketing strategies and practices, I have to admit their feel for market demand and timing is almost unreal, unlike GM that commits to some new tech doodad, then finds out it has problems, instead of fixing them, they simply withdraw. A few years later others move in with problems worked out, but GM says "no, we tried and it didn't work so we stay the old way". Another example is safety commitments - GM puts ABS standard in late 90s - too early for the public, so they back off just to find out it is now expected. They lose twice.
All of it for me looks like simple arrogance: we know what is best, we tell you when and how. I sometimes wonder if their focus groups are like bunch of UAW wifes from Detroit trained to nod everything that is handed to them, or what, cause I can't really explain why their marketing moves are so bad at times.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Much of that is trying to comply with a moving target at the EPA/CARB. An example was the EV-1. GM spends a billion dollars on R&D for the CARB ZEV mandate. Only to have the rug pulled out from under them and a new PZEV mandate that favors the hybrid. What will it be during the next administration? By the way GM was way ahead of Toyota on battery technology. When Toyota and Panasonic tried stealing NiMH technology that GM developed they lost the lawsuit. Also Chrysler predated Toyota in hybrid technology and dropped it because their 70 MPG car was too expensive for the market to bare, at least that is what DCX management thought. Wrong strategic moves, yes. Lack of innovation, NO!
There is probably plenty of innovation in their labs, but not so much in their production cars. How many times did we see that great concept on auto show and a pathetic execution in production? I think too many and it happens again and again.
When you see a concept Lexus, Acura, Benz, or whatever, you know 90% of the content will make to the showroom in one form or another. GM concept? You're lucky if 30% makes it. Reasons: dozens, from idiotic management/marketing to labor unions resisting changes to real and legitimate problems with production line.
BTW what ABS has to do with ZEV/PZEV?
2018 430i Gran Coupe
On the other hand, I've not seen any consumer application of the hydrogen car Honda had at the shows about 3 years ago.
Two years ago, Daimler had a bunch of SMART concepts at the Auto Shows. Not only are the concepts not being made, Daimler still has not figured out how to import any to the US.
If you believe that statement, your in for a rude awakening, as is the us automakers. Believe me toyota has done there research on the full size truck market and the new tundra is set to strike. Just like ford and chevy laughed at nissan, im sure they're not laughing now, Toyota is more of a threat, and toyota surely will steal some market share in the fullsize truck market. Now dont get me wrong, they wont topple the big 3 (yet), but they will gain a strong foothold.
As for the Titan, Nissan has had enough reliability issues with them, and the Titan doesn't have enough engine/cab/bed configurations to really be a big threat to GM/Ford/Dodge. For the time being, at least.
However, the Japanese learn quickly from their mistakes. Much more quickly than the Big 2.5.
While I seriously doubt Chevy [GM] and Ford laugh at any competitors, the Nissan Titan does not make your case.
Per Autosite, Titan sales through April 06 were at 27k, down 2k from last year.
The Titan sales numbers were less than a 10th of the F150, about a 10th of combined Silverado and Sierra sales (a truck in its last model year), significantly less than the Tundra (also in its last model year), and less than such mid-sizes as the Tacoma, Ranger and Colorado. Even the Frontier sold slightly more.
The Titan may have gotten some good press at launch, but it is hardly a successful full size.
I don't know if I like the instrument cluster and it drives me nuts that all VWs have the tach going 10 20 30 and the speedometer going 20 40 60. Thats just dumb.
The car drove really nicely, it felt very lively without being darty or nervous and was comfortable and quiet (which is why I think it reminds me of the BMW). JCI enterior is very nice.
But dang, that thing is not so cheap. The Jetta I think its slightly more, which makes it a bit more than the WRX I think I want in the first place.
I dunno, I think I am fixing the beater and keeping it for a bit longer.