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Comments
The Corolla ( as a 5 y.o. model )still out sells the new Civic - through April.
Our Government is trying to force the "peons" to drive hybrids so they can drive large SUV's. The Dallas Morning News had a list of Texas"s representatives and most drove gas guzzlers.
(Dad was a die hard GM lovin, NASCAR watchin, Dale Earnheardt FAN!) He'll forgive me for the Toyota, he's bigger than that now. Besides I know he's happy talking to Dale SR in a place where they don't argue anymore. OK maybe God does allow Dale to still root for Chevy's. That's OK because we also know God has favorites and roots for the Steelers!
I understand I'll quit and simply talk about Toyota's in general.
Our Government is trying to force the "peons" to drive hybrids so they can drive large SUV's. The Dallas Morning News had a list of Texas"s representatives and most drove gas guzzlers.
Wait a minute that's a hybrid comment. It also sounds like it upsets you that the peons (never thought of myself like that_ at least not before last weeks postings_and even then no one called me a peon last week)are being forced to drive hybrids? I guess you want to drive a big SUV too just to show them you're not a peon? Personally I'd stay away from large SUV's just in case someone in Texas wanted to associate me with being a politician.
Wait a minute this is a fake posting. I thought all the Texas politicians were still hiding in Oklahoma. How would you know what they are driving?
I rest my case. In this segment it is often not about whether you really feel it is worth much more, or not. The "bang for the buck" works well in low segments, in high it has a very limited appeal. If the product content does not pass certain threshold, its price is irrelevant. I think previous trouble of Caddy was exactly there - the price was lower, but the meat wasn't there, either.
It is is definitely better today, but I think they have some distance to go in their entire lineup. Even they know it.
If you have STS commercials bashing competition (with names and badges not held back) and then you put 5 grand in dealer incentives less than 2 years from the debut, it means it did not deliver.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Actually I think it's just begun.
Consider this scenario. How much more can they possibly put into vehicles? You can get..
your local movie multiplex in your SUV/Van;
symphonic Hall quality sound;
a vehicle that doubles as a mobile phone - or 'hot spot' for your 'puter;
a vehicle that talks to you giving you directions to drive;
a vehicle that can sense danger and brake you even if you are asleep :surprise: ;
a vehicle that you can drive into a brick wall at 50 mph, unbuckle and walk away to call your spouse;
The next big development is to retire the dinosaurs - the gassers. Hybrid technology is the first volley and it's very very successful in what it does. Next is the expansion of diesel powered vehicles due to their inherent simpicity and better efficiency combined likely with some hybrid 'multiplier' to increase this efficiency even more. Then there is fuel.
Hydrogen is been shown to be mostly a pipe dream as is solar power. Ethanol is the current buzz but it's not as cost effective as might be expected nor as efficient but it is a step.
Biodiesel, B100, linked to a hybrid multiplier is America's dream fuel. It can be produced anywhere here. It's completely renewable. It's efficient as a diesel fuel. It's beginning to get a deserved buzz in that its an entreprenurial endeavor instead of a Big Biz endeavor.
The dream vehicle of the next decade:
A plug-in-hybrid-diesel vehicle( PIHDV) running on B100 where you use the hybrid technology to multiply the efficiency of the diesel engine. You can use the plug-in technology to charge overnight to drive on your self-generated electicity from wind or solar sources or from the power grid if need be. The PH technology allows you to drive 5-10-20 miles on no fuel whatsoever until the diesel, running on B100, kicks in along with the hybrid power source to keep you running until the tank is empty. Then refill. Recharge again at night - or not as the opportunity arises.
Sorry you have a far more complicated drive system, simply because of that the hybrid is going to cost more if something should go wrong with it. Not to mention other things that the hybrid has that a ICE car doesn't that could go wrong.
No actually the owner is paying less initially
How so since a Hybrid costs more than an ICE?
On this I'd expect you of all of us to be fully aware.
It is rather new and since I usually don't get myself up to speed on the years changes until the end of the year I wouldn't know.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I assume you are referring to the Prius Classic as the Prius II has not been on the road for 3 years yet. I have asked and not gotten an answer to this one. All the Prius Classic batteries in the UK were recalled and replaced for leakage. Is that the case here also?
You don't have to pay more for the ICE, you can get a V6 Camry for thousands less than the hybrid and a 4 banger for even less.
Your internal data bank is about 3 yrs out of date. There are already well in excess of 200K HSD vehicles on the road right now.
I haven't seen any support for this
BTW no new Camry ( and most new Toyota's ) require anything more than fluid and filters now - for life. In some places the fluids are free for life as well.
Somehow I find this rather hard to believe. Things don't wear out? Unless you do tons of highway driving and hardly use the brakes you will need new brakes, spark plugs need replacing, I don't know if it has timing chain or belt but neither one is recommended to go unchanged forever (although chains will last much longer).
My sisters Camry has been in the shop for non routine maintence three times as much as my Hyundai (even though it has less than half the mileage).
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
6 yrs into Prius' and the reactions are that nothing in the hybrid system fails. Software had to be adjusted on early Gen 2 Prius' but no parts failed. The batteries are expected to last well into the 200,000 mile range. The main variable in all of the system is the ICE engine which has to be kept up on a regular 6 month interval. Brake usage is likely to be much less than with a traditional gasser.
Consider when you lift your foot off the pedal of your Cadillac, the ICE still idles and 'pulls' the vehicle forward as the engine continues to burn fuel. In order to come to a complete stop you have to fight this ICE-pull by applying the brakes early then harder and harder. This is not necessary on an HSD vehicle.
You are fixated still that the TCH is more than the XLE V6. It isn't. The TCH owner will pay less for his vehicle than typical V6 XLE owners. But, even if an excellent negotiator such as yourself was able to buy a V6 XLE just above invoice ( which is doubtful ) then iso paying $1000+ more than the TCH owner you might pay $1500 less for a similarly equipped vehicle.
But... for the life of the two vehicles
-the TCH owner would be getting 35% better fuel economy
-leaving a smaller imprint on the environment
What's the value of that $1500 now?
I want to say 60% but it could be 40% more moving parts to fail.
6 yrs into Prius' and the reactions are that nothing in the hybrid system fails.
I have read the prius and hybrid forums where people have said the opposite, even one had to have all the batteries replaced prior to hitting 100K.
You are fixated still that the TCH is more than the XLE V6.
Well it is in reality, but remember that the Camry (even the V6's) come in more than one trim, don't compare the hybrid with the most expensive one. You can still get a V6 Camry for thousands less than the hybrid. Why can't you admit that?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Not with the same equipment. If all you need is a 4c then yes any 4c is far less money. As it is with any V6 vehicle. That is a perfectly valid option and one that many will choose. But that goes to my statement above also .. why compare an Avalon to a Corolla?
Somehow I find this rather hard to believe. Things don't wear out? Unless you do tons of highway driving and hardly use the brakes you will need new brakes, spark plugs need replacing, I don't know if it has timing chain or belt but neither one is recommended to go unchanged forever (although chains will last much longer).
Brakes.. see prior post. Depending on individual situations many HSD owner are reports no wear on the brakes at 50,000 miles and more.
All Camry's have 100,000 mi min sparkplugs. After that it's your choice. All Toyota autos have timing chains which should never have to be replaced. It comes down to fluids and filters every 6 months and if you do business in the right places often fluids are free for life.
This is right out of the Maintenance Guide given to the owner upon delivery.
Thus it's filters, tires and wipers and the cost to rotate the tires.
My sisters Camry has been in the shop for non routine maintence three times as much as my Hyundai (even though it has less than half the mileage).
I guess your sister's anecdotal experience balances my anecdotal experience in that it's 17 yrs and running with nothing unexpected.
Let's put this to rest. In what way is a $30500 TCH more than a $31500 XLE V6? Same equipment? Weird given your mathmatical background.
Ahhh maybe you understood that there is only one trim level on the TCH. You can also buy a TCH for just under $27000. This is the same price as a standard V6 with similar equipment. It's also just above a 4c with similar equipment.
The hierarchy of models ( excluding the base models )is:
4c XLE
TCH ( + $1000 )
V6 XLE (+ $1000 )
Proof of HSD vehicles on the road. It's been all over the press but a look at Toyota's press website will give you all the info you might need. It might very well be approaching 400,000 vehicles now. ( HINT: 100,000+ Prius' were deliverd just last year alone in the US).
I would like to see your basis for that assumption. According to Toyota, their LCA (life cycle analysis) of the Prius II, states the following.
LCA is a method of evaluating in advance a product’s environmental impact throughout its whole life cycle, from manufacture to disposal. based on 10 year use, and 100,000km mileage during the life cycle.
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/k_forum/tenji/pdf/pgr_e.pdf
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Ok the test is offering your local Toyota dealer $30,000 for that $30,500 car. If your market is anything like mine you will be told no, the price is $30,500. Now go to that very same friendly Toyota dealer and offer them $30,000 for that $31,500 car and they most likely will take it because they know thats about the going rate for the car.
You see its not what the sticker says, its what the car is actually selling for. using that as the basis the hybrid is more expensive.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
But you're right its very low in mileage.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
This was similar to the campaign here last year where the terminals were resealed to prevent potential leaks from corrosion. Just like the 160 V6 XLE's Toyota seems to jump all over potential problems quickly to avoid larger problems in the future. It sounds like a good way to do business.
Toyota's website:
www.toyota.com =>
hybrids =>
FAQ =>
How it works =>
How long does the HSD battery last and what is the replacement cost?
It can't be copied here but the statement is that after lab testing of 180,000 miles they found no deterioration in the battery thus they fully expect it to last the life of the vehicle. Most Toyota's last well into the 200,000 mi range. Your's is additional proof.
LCA isn't a warranty or an estimate of durability as you well know from your own experience. It's an artificial construct to satisfy political requirements. Nothing more.
No, ours has 84k miles in 17 years. Though the cost to repair was exhorbinant until I found a good independent Lexus shop. I cannot imagine driving a car 200k miles. My highest mileage vehicle in the last 25 years was 63k miles in 5 years. I only had 45k miles on my Suburban after 7 years. My new GMC will probably have 3000 miles when it hits the one year mark. Because of your own personal use of a vehicle I do not think you can relate to someone that is more concerned with longevity than high mileage. That is why the Toyota battery tests of 180k miles in a matter of months mean nothing to me. I want to know what happens when you drive 5 miles a day for 2 months then leave the car sitting for a couple weeks then come back and repeat the procedure. I will be very surprised if many Prii make it to the 10 year mark without any major repairs.
A couple of funny stories...one guy was selling one with "no problems" and "had all receipts." Apparently he put like $1500 into the front end and he was mad about it. I thought that was weird for a car so new... then I saw the wheels. Parking by braille is the understatement of the year. The front wheels looked like they had been sitting on a belt sander...and it had brand new no name $50 front tires. I was there and told my friend to just walk away.
The next one was okay, had 42k or so which was high for the year, and had corded rear tires and relatively new looking $50 front tires, one with a bubble and some paint work on the rear quarter the seller "knew nothing about." He freaked on his own on that one and walked.
The car he got needed tires too but he told the dealer not to put the $50 tires on it and just give him a credit. TireRack will have something better.
Sorry for the long slightly off topic post, I just wanted to give an update. Oh, and his car was made in Flat Rock, MI in what I believe is a UAW plant.
Gee, thanks for your condescending response - I'm pretty sure I'm being insulted, though very eloquently, I'll admit.
You're right though - I'm unsure this technology is here to stay. It may evolve into something good, but it's too new to rate right now. When these things get some age and miles on them, fall out of warranty, we'll see how they work. As I said, I'm not interested in gambling on them at this point, nor do I want to spend more money for my transportation needlessly. Yes, I'm a selfish neanderthal by your high and mighty yardstick. But you own a Prius, I would expect this position from you, as the ownership of a Hybrid puts you on higher moral ground than I.
So, for the sake of educating me (although you can find out quite a bit about me on this site, if you care) beyond my current "uninformed" state - how is it that battery disposal is a non-issue exactly? :confuse:
I've driven my share of big cars kido.
However the reference to the peons (directed at hybrid drivers like me) may have been an insult; I'm not sure?
Oh well, I've driven big boats too. Just traded off an 04 Expedition (14.2pg average)
I traded in an 04 Toyota Sienna for my my now 05 TDI Passat. I consider the Sienna the second worse vehicle I've ever owned. Bad transmission and the wind pushed it all over the road. It did have a good radio and averaged 20 MPG (hand calculated). The worse being a 57 Chevrolet. The 57, at today's gas prices, would put you in the poor house.
I don't care what kind of vehicle people drive. Just as long as they don't start driving tanks down the road, but some of our highways look like a tank was dviven on them.
It's not owning the vehicle that brings out the response it's the blanket dismissal of the concept without investigation. Many find the Prius butt ugly and wouldn't buy it for that reason while others think it 'cute'. Both are valid, IMO.
But to dismiss it out of hand without research is not justified.
The batteries are not an environmental risk in the way that lead acid batteries are. Here is a link explaining NiMH batteries from one supplier Cobasys.
http://www.cobasys.com/pdf/tutorial/InsideNimhBattery/inside_nimh_battery_techno- logy.html
As I noted previously from Toyota's website they will take back every battery and pay the returner a $200 bounty for recycling them.
In addition to the tests Toyota has done indicating that the batteries will not deteriorate therefore should last the life of the vehicle, the experiences of several hundred thousand owners lends support to Toyota's tests.
Can the battery be damaged? Sure it can. Abuse can hurt any vehicle.
I just see these issues as a deterrent to owning, and paying a premium for the green machine. Two motors being better than one, really complicate the auto. I just can't get my mind around wanting this much expensive complexity in my power module.
Of course, the opposite of this would be GM, who hasn't put any new technology into a power module in decades, so if I wanted simple, I'd buy a Chevy....they're as simple as they get, and easy and cheap to fix. Not my style either.
So, you see, I drive a Lexus, which is not a simple machine, but is a very good one. The 19MPG I get in town in this car is plenty good IMO, considering the comfort I get out of it. Boosting it to 24 MPG at the cost of $5,000 more at inception, and complicating it that much more doesn't appeal.
YMMV.
That is exactly my point on the battery subject. It is not miles that deteriorate a battery as much as time. If the Prius batteries were subjected to deep discharge and over charge that would also present problems.
Toyota in the UK has warned all owners of the first-generation Prius that the hybrid battery could leak.
The leakage, which Toyota says does not pose a safety threat, can affect all models sold in the period of 2000-03 and affects 1,239 petrol/electric hybrids in the UK.
Now suppose 4 years from now you have 140k miles on your Prius and several cells began to leak. Will Toyota fix the cells for free? Or will they tell you the whole battery needs to be replaced and because it is an older style the cost is $7500. No aftermarket is going to have this oddball Prius battery for sure. I suppose you are still a happy Toyota camper? What it will do is make an otherwise decent used Prius WORTHLESS! Oh, I know you go on eBay and try to find some used cells to replace the defective ones. Always an answer. Tell that to the Insight guys with dead NiMH batteries. The Insight is the only hybrid around with the age to be worrying about battery failures. Because they were not AT-PZEV they were not covered by the longer CARB hybrid warranty. Sad but true.
KISS is a good policy but in this market nothing is simple in automotive technology so I am just going to stay with the most reliable and plan on 200K+ miles.
That is good to know. I thought I lost a key for the 2005 Passat. I about came unglued when they told me it was $275 to replace. I guess VW is cheap compared to Toyota.
At the end of the program GM took back all the EV1s and destroyed them. Toyota's electric RAVs are still running around out there...
And that program ran concurrently in its later years with the early hybrid program at Toyota.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I think kdh is given to hyperbole, gagrice. I purchased a replacement key for my Lexus, and it was $250. Bad enough, to be sure, but nothing like the spyder said.
Plus, the battery packs are warranted for 150K miles, and this car has no torque converter automatic to go bad by that mileage as most cars do, a problem that would come with a similar price tag in any other model.
The thing is, hybrid tech is still relatively new, so there is a large amount of unwillingness right now to accept that it might offer advantages. A lot of people are rejecting it out of hand due to uncertainty over of its newness.
But Toyota is pretty careful about what it puts out there with its name on it. So the chances are decent that the new Prii (and other Toyotas with HSD) will go the distance.
Why did everyone get so caught up in the hybrid debate in this thread? There are other models out there, you know!
Me, I just learned that the 2.4L in the G6 has the same power rating as the 4-cyls from CamCord. Didn't know that before, assumed it was the same low-power unit as the Malibu. Or has the Malibu's 4-cyl come up in power from last year?
I love the look of the new Aura, and the new Saturns in general. But I wouldn't pay $27K for an Aura 3.6, when the new Suzuki XL7 has the same engine (and 4WD, and three rows, and...) for thousands less. Makes the Aura 3.6 seem like a bit of a rough deal.
OTOH, I can't wait to see the new Opel they put in the Saturn line for an Ion replacement. Maybe THAT will finally be my American car purchase for this decade (long story)....or maybe the Euro Focus, if they ever bring it over here.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Lose BOTH master keys and that means that they have to give you an entirely new set, take out the old cpu and replace it with a new cpu. $2000
You might read my original post a little closer.
if you lose your two master keys with the engine immobilizer then the bill is going to be $2000...... in a Corolla for pete's sake!!!
Tend to jump to conclusions, do we?
Lose both master keys on your Lexus at the same time and see what the cost is then. You cannot make copies from only the valet key. You need at least one master key to copy onto the new blank one. Now as a service Lexus might have a third master key locked away in a safe for each client - just in case. But just for kicks ask next time.
Research, research, research. It's amazing what it'll do for accuracy.
Again why should the customer suffer due to a poor design. According to the VW dealer I can use the valet key to cut a new key with chip. The remote door system can be re programmed to new master keys. Still expensive not as bad as a Toyota.
Every day I see something different in all these cars that leads me to believe I would be ahead by keeping an older car, rather than buying from any of the new car mfg companies. It does not give me a warm fuzzy feeling to know that I get some fancy NAV and have to spend $400 to get it up to current roads. Or that after the 3 year warranty I could spend thousands to keep the catalytic convertor operating. Dozens of sensors at $500-$1500 a pop. What is good about the newer cars? you tell me you sell them. Oh I know spend another $1500 or more for a warranty out to 7 years. What happens then? Do they even stock parts for cars that old anymore. It took a week to get the fuel gauge module for the Lexus. And to top it all off 99 out of 100 new cars you cannot see out of. Plus they are down right UGLY.
We have seen 3 of the new Mercedes CLS500s in the last two days. I really dislike the looks of them. I think Toyota and MB have the same designer. As all their new cars pretty much look alike.
Enough ranting, it frustrates me when I would really like to buy a new car and nothing is worth taking out for a test drive.
To make it worse, the cars make the driver more and more remote from the road with every passing year.
As for the keys, I would just as soon have an alarm system as an immobilizer that is going to cost me $250 a key if I ever lose one. I mean, who DOESN'T lose a key now and again?
Maybe CCBS has finally got me burned out, I dunno. :sick:
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I acknowledge the problem and it is actually the first point I make with every single client before delivery, before they ever set foot in the vehicle.
"See these two keys/Fobs to your Corolla/Camry/Tacoma/Highlander/Land Crusher/Prius/Sequoia they are $2000 out-of-pocket if you lose them both. DON'T!!"
The insurance companies love these devices, so in they go.
But that's only one out of many in the new high tech vehicles from every manufacturer. Each one cpu/ecu is as gagrice points out $500-$1500 per. Hello extended warranty.
Another good complaint. Who has a 10-12 year bumper to bumper warranty? I will never put a lot of miles on a car. I would just as soon keep it shiny in the garage for 12 or more years. I would have gotten an extended warranty on the GMC. 7 years was max for $1800. I loved his presentation. He has an ABS logic module sitting on his desk. He points to it and says that one unit is $2200. Later I am looking through my warranty and the ABS logic module is warranted for 8 yrs or 80k miles. How can you ever trust a dealer, present company excepted?
PS
I found the Passat key 3 months later in a pair of dress pants.
The Malibu has the old 2.2 Ecotec that debuted in 2000. The 2.4 Ecotec in the G6 is a FWD version of the base Solstice engine.
OHC engines, fuel injection, automatic transmissions, CVTs, any time an additional gear was added to a transmission, lockup torque converters, emissions controls, any type of power assist, FWD, air conditioning, any type of computer or electronic control, unitized construction, V-8 engines, etc, all tended to add a lot more complexity and cost, and trouble, at least until the bugs were worked out.
That's the price you pay for technological progress, though. So overall, I'd say hybrids have proven themeselves pretty well!
I actually think that is why many people are reluctant to trust hybrid technology, even though it is from other makers.