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If you take those things into account, what may be a decent value even at a sticker (say you don't want/can't negotiate extra $1500 off for whatever reason), like say Corolla with a sticker of 18-20 grand, depending on the model, combining with low interest loan or small cash back incentive, can quickly blow up to well over 20 thousand, including all those silly charges and legitimate taxes with literally no new value added to it.
This is how the dealers adapted to lower oficial markups and "at invoice" sales. They sell you car "at invoice", but the distributor padded the invoice with those great packages (which they later share with the dealer) and the dealer adds the "silly fee" of whatever they can dream of. Dealer gets the profit and customer thinks they just bought the car at invoice. Everybody wins, right?
2018 430i Gran Coupe
The only time a customer actually pays invoice on a new car has to do with special programs available to special groups or classes of buyers:
USAA Car buying service - $2000 below invoice. I can add to that a $2000 MB Financial Services loyalty certificate and because I am a member of the Mercedes Benz Club of America, I get another $1000 off the selling price. Thus, I buy my E350's for about $5000 BELOW INVOICE. When you add back dealer fees, etc, it works out to just over $4000 below invoice which is significant.
These special programs are not available to most buyers. I could never buy a new car every year or so unless I qualified for these programs.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Yeah, unless it runs aground, lists 70 degrees and drowns a significant number of the passengers.
What's not to like?
Well, I would rather the engine in my car stop and I may be able to glide to a stop.
Breakdowns can happen. I am not saying they can be on top of every possible breakdown, though this one sounds like it was due to a lack of doing better maintenance on the engine.
I just don't think it is enough compensation to give you a refund for a trip that not only didn't happen but was a terrible experience...and then they are going to give you another chance to go on the same trip at no cost - which is the trip you paid for in the first place. In other words you are getting nothing for your trouble.
They (Carnival) gets off pretty lightly considering the danger and terrible experience their customers went through. Not much incentive to make sure their engines don't break down.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
What's not to like?
Exactly! Good point CP.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I think it is well documented that Costa Concordia's accident was the Captain's cowboyish actions. If he would have taken the approved/planned course it would have never happened. I don't think you can take one man's foolish actions and blame an industry as a whole.
Cruising is a very safe form of travel. You take much more of a chance getting into your car every morning driving to work.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
Thanks, nyc. Still have not been able to eat yet, but fever broke last night. This is one nasty virus.
As for baseball, when spring training starts, I alway try to get to several games down here.
I am not a Marlins fan. They built that $750 million stadium in the middle of Miami - 45 miles away. I avoid Miami like the plague. The mayor of Miami sent some very nasty letters to the commissioner for not selecting Miami for the 2014 All Star Game. It is a beautiful stadium - but what good is a beautiful stadium if no one attends the games. It was built with bonds backed by increased taxes and the city of Miami. Now the Dolphins want to so the same thing by a total remake of Sunlife Stadium in north Miami. They are having a tough time getting that approved because of the Marlins fiasco with their stadium - not enough fans attending games to pay interest on the bonds.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
In a cringe-worthy moment, an unnamed driver in Arizona has crashed a brand new 2014 Corvette Stingray on the side of a highway.
A poster on digitalcorvettes.com who submitted the painful photo simply had the following explanation:
“Driving through some mountains in Arizona about 30 minutes ago. In some tight switchbacks when we passed this ’14 Vette. Cop had just arrived. Car is in worse shape than looks. Hit guardrail on left and bounced back to rocks.”
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
This reminds me of a post on the Genesis forum a few years back. A guy just picked up a brand new Corvette and his wife in their nearly new Genesis rear ended him. That had to suck!
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
That cracks me up. The list of side effects is usually longer than the ad.
Hope you're feeling better Mike.
Terrible experience? Yes. Big pain in the you know what? Absolutely.
Danger? Come on. There was no danger at all.
Hang in there buddy. And this too shall pass.
Get well soon
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Couldn't be that bad because the airbag did not deploy. Or perhaps it does not have an airbag or even worse it malfunctioned.
I think a little Bondo won't solve the Corvette's problems. If it jammed into those rocks, there will be problems with the frame, front end, etc. once a car like that is involved in a collision/accident, it never handles or rides the same. My 1967 corvette stingray fastback coupe (427 cu in engine) jumped a parking stoop and ruined the 4 speed trans. Even after $2000 replacement of trans., oil pan, etc, it never handled the same
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
Lots of danger actually. As a doctor on CNN said, that ship is like a petri dish.
Waste material in plastic bags, no hot water, contaminated food, hepatitis.
I know they will have tons of Perrell, but still you can catch a lot from 4000 people and poor sanitation.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
tjc.....haven't been over to that "Cruise Forum" for a while. Those people over there have to be going nuts regarding this recent cruise ship mis-hap. As you know, if you're a person who doesn't agree with their assessments of any particular cruise line, they can be brutal in their responses.
As you mention, Carnival has several brands under their umbrella. And, they've really made a move to dramatically expand their ships/brands over the last few years. I'm thinking that the attempts to hit the magical economy of scale cut backs they expect from all of that expansion is really making all parts of their cruise experience to "break".
You certainly don't see the amount, and the severity of these sorts of problems with other cruise companies.
Still, for the money, you'd be hard pressed to find the kind of vacation, going to the exotic locales, as you do with a cruise.
I believe they are limited in Ohio to $250. Before my last purchase, I had researched and printed out the ORC (Ohio Revised Code) that was relevant. It says the doc fee can be nothing or up to $250. The dealers always said it had to $250. They said it had to be the same for everyone or they would be sued for charged some minority group more than others paid. I pointed out the language talks about the document fee being suitable for time purchases, as in loans and the processing thereof. The salesman got that blank look on his face. Served him right because I kept giving a price based on title cost and anything required by the State of Ohio. Then after we were close he disclosed the $250 document fee. I was ready to walk, I had my papers out with printouts of other similar vehicles from two other dealers in the area and those showed when I pulled out my printouts of the Ohio Revised Code. We settled for $100. But I was very aggravated. If it hadn't been a convenient locations compared to the other dealers, he probably would have lost the sale based on gamesmanship.
It's worth an email to your state representative. But the dealer lobby group got there first.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I only read a few pages of the thread about the ship and quickly moved on. It gets ugly over there pretty fast. I remember reading the threads about my extended honeymoon cruise, you may have thought NCL executed the president. The best part was it wasn't them, the whole thing was due to the storm and NY closing the port!
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
Will try to post pics that I took with my iPhone in the next few days, if the hosts don't mind.
A few observations.....
-the new 'vette is probably the biggest departure from the previous generation of 'vettes I've ever seen. Do I like it? Not sure! In a lot of ways it looks cartoonish. The interior looks like a derivative of the Camaro's interior, only with more features. If you like one, you'll like the other. Of course, driving it is the way to really get a better impression.
-Caddy ATS....was really looking forward to seeing this car in the flesh. Was disappointed. Can't put my finger on it. Even though they've done away with most buttons, it looks busy on the inside. The CUE system has already had its fair share of detractors....the answer to a question no one asked. Consider me one more detractor. The best Caddy in their line-up is the SRX (Richard, excellent choice). It's premium feeling, comfortable and functional. Looks like it compares well with the Lexus RX.
-I now understand what abacomike was talking about with the confounding technology in the GS350. I had a hard time making it work, and I was sitting still in the car. I can't imagine what it would be like trying to make it functional while moving or over bumpy roads. Again, an answer to a question no one asked.
-BMW....best thing in their line-up is the X1. All the good BMW "stuff" without the stuff that doesn't matter. Comfortable, roomy, functional, and based on what seems to be the F30 platform (I think). Everybody has seen/heard about the F30 (current 3 Series). Nothing there that makes me want to run out and trade my 335i (E90 series).
-Audi....everyone here knows how smitten I am with the GF's S4. They had the entire S series lineup on the show floor....all in white....just like the GFs....S4, S6, S7. Very stylish, very well made, beautiful in and out. Most of all, they all look like great performers. IF I could, in any way, justify the cost, an S7 would be sitting in my garage. That is such a sexy car.
Mercedes....interestingly, the GF had shopped in Chicago for her new car and bought the S4 in Chicago instead of locally. She also cross shopped Mercedes, a C350 4 matic coupe, to be exact. They had the exact one she was looking at on the show floor (black, with tan interior). Pretty, but hard to see her in that same car, today. No CLA..... :sick:
-Chevy.....aside from the 'vette, was underwhelmed by the new Impala and the Malibu. Camaro is what it is. The Volt is their best, IMHO.
-Ford....don't know what's going on with Lincoln, but there was nothing there that would make me plunk down $40K-$50K. There is just way too many other cars, in the same space, that are so much better, for the price (or less). That brings is to Ford. They really are well focused. The one that stood out the most was the Escape. Well executed. The rest is trucks and small cars. My son loves the Fiesta. So, with the Taurus (which would be my choice over any Lincoln), small cars, trucks, SUVs, they have everything covered with at least a competitive offering, if not a class leading offering. I'd choose a Fusion over a Malibu, or a Taurus over an Impala (even the new Impala) all day, every day.
-Toyota....nothing there that caught my eye...same with Nissan, except for the Leaf. That's an impressive offering if they can start to get more miles out of the battery. Plenty of room and I could see driving it in a city environment.
-Honda....a fan. Great job on the new Civics and Accords. They're going to sell a whole lot of both.
-Acura...ILX isn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. In today's market, 4 cyl, high content, near lux cars seem to the the hot segment. ILX hits all the hot buttons. If the new TL will be based on the new Accord, Acura has another hit. No NSX on display... :sick:
The biggest surprise of the show to me was.....
Buick-the Regal really surprised me....in a very positive way. The GS was particularly tasty. The rest of GM can take some lessons from Buick. They really put together a nice car. Buick's biggest problem will be getting people to the showroom, especially given the $40K price point I saw on the admittedly loaded GS I sat in. That's the only GM product I would remotely consider buying. Very nicely done.
Will get to pics later.
I won't even debate the doc fees with dealerships. I make one offer. How they divy up the amount is up to them.
I get especially peeved when dealerships tell me it's a law that they have to charge dod fees. When I ask them to show me where that law is stated, I always get the ".....ummmm....oohhhhh....well......".
I see a business for me.
"For 1/2 the cost of what your dealer charges, GG's doc fee service will file all license and financial docs for you."
What's to stop a customer from telling the dealer...."I'm using the GG doc service."
What? They aren't going to sell you the car because someone else is doing the filing work?
I can go from dealer to dealer every day, with a laptop and a portable printer. Head to the local BMV at the end of each day and drop off the paperwork. Then, onto the post office to mail the financial docs to the financial institutions. Mail out pink slips to car owners, done!
I'll charge $100/ea. I bet I can do 50/day, at least. If I hire a couple of $10/hr people, I can triple that amount.
$1,500/day....low overhead....undercutting the dealer price. I believe I should draw up a business plan.
And honestly - I'm not so sure state's caps are such a great things. After all, free market should allow dealer charge anything they want, if they can actually sell it for such number.
To me dealer fees are just the same as tip at dinner. The restaurant owner runs ads that it is $15. But it is not - unless one decides not to pay for the service, the real price is around $18 or so. To me it is equally deceptive as dealer fee, but the rest of the society decided it's OK, because the tip is "voluntary". But is it, really? What if the waiter was friendly, food was good and on time, everything was served as ordered, but one decided not to leave a "voluntary" tip, or give 10 cents? We all would look down on such a person (deservingly so), yet when you as how much the dinner was, they'd say 15 bucks and extra 3 bucks were "voluntary". Just as well...
2018 430i Gran Coupe
The guy who took the picture says he thinks the car is worse than it looks. He says the guy scraped along the guardrail and then went through, doing a lot more damage than it looks like from the angle he took the picture.
I think Mike is right. The tolerance is fractions of a millimeter so it is almost impossible to make these cars as good as new.
I wonder what that guy was doing to go off the road all by himself on a straightaway. Wouldn't want to be paying his insurance premiums.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
TJC or GG, send me the link to the cruise form. I'd be curious to see what people are saying.
I liked this report from ABC:
The 4,000 passengers and crew aboard the stricken Carnival Triumph cruise ship will disembark after dark tonight from the fetid cruiser dubbed "the poop deck" on social media, according to officials.
Carnival is now offering $500 on top of a refund and they will pay for expenses for transportation to the cruise ship.
As previously announced, all 3,143 guests on board will receive a full refund of the cruise along with transportation expenses and reimbursement of all shipboard purchases during the voyage, with the exception of gift shop, art purchases and casino charges. All passengers will also receive a future cruise credit equal to the amount paid for this voyage.
In my opinion, that is still minimal....that is the least they should have done.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
+1 on that. A few years ago, when my daughter needed a new car, I was working with the local Kia dealers to get a price on the Forte EX.
One dealer was charging $699 as the D&H (dealer & handling) fee!
Before Saturn went belly-up, the local dealer was adding $489.50 to each sale.
I wish Colorado would pass a law capping the amount of money dealers could charge.
If you don't have an International Drivers Permit (IDP), you are now in violation of Florida law.
Driver, not sure it's ok to link another forum, but here it is. This is a direct link to the big thread. I'm there are probably 10 or more threads about it in the general Carnival forum.
Fire on Carnival Triumph. No engines, running on emergency generators.
You think we can talk? 4700 posts since Sunday afternoon. Happy Reading.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
Thanks for passing that on Michaell, I had just read that article in the National Post. Are you Canadian...how did you see the article?
I tried to see if there is anything on the Canadian Snowbirds Assoc site, but there wasn't.
I have a feeling the law is on the books but it is so silly no one is going by it. I don't know of any other Canadian who has heard about this.
The article was funny though, seems whoever made the law thinks only Americans speak English. And, it says the law seems to have been written by someone who has English as their second language.
I'll try to find out more...but that law is ridiculous if they are going to actually enforce it.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Thanks tjc. Someone near the end is saying they "heard" one passenger has died.....but that isn't confirmed. Although it wouldn't be hard to believe, the odds are pretty good that could happen over 5 days with 4000 people aboard.
Carnivals share price is getting beaten up, probably a good time to buy. This will slow down cruising for awhile, but won't make a big impact. Besides, look at the millions who go on a cruise with no problems.
I just think people should be properly compensated. Also, I am concerned that these incidents are happening because of cost cutting.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
GF - did you get a chance to see the 2014 Mercedes E350 "Sport" Sedan? I've seen a few pictures of it on several sites, but those pictures don't show details of the new front end and the restyled interior. If you did, what was your impression?
I had to change my order from Diamond White and Saddle interior to Silver with Black Leather interior because they discontinued the natural beige leather (saddle). It is scheduled for production on March 19th. Should be at the dealership in mid April assuming Mercedes USA releases them. I don't have to buy the car if I don't like it.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
Waste material in plastic bags, no hot water, contaminated food, hepatitis.
I know they will have tons of Perrell, but still you can catch a lot from 4000 people and poor sanitation.
Fair enough. I thought you meant danger as in fire or sinking danger.
Go to any Triple AAA with a valid license and (it was 10 bucks) may be 20 by now. They glue in a passport pic and stamp across it and you're done. 10 mins.
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
I had a few phone calls from guys like this who then spilled the beans after I asked them a few questions on how they got this price. They wanted me to beat some low ball undoable number that another dealer was offering only to find out that the other dealer's price did not include freight/pdi, or their doc fee is $899 vs our $299.
What some other dealers did too is when you got 0% financing they charged a $400 finance processing fee plus doc fee. :confuse:
You just gotta be on guard and just look at the "total" price. As GraphicGuy said, how they divy up the money is their problem.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
I don't think it's ridiculous. You're going to be a resident of the state for months at a time, so what is wrong with having a document that is recognized by the state (international driver's license) as opposed to a license from a random Canadian province?
I completely disagree. At a restaurant, the tip is to pay for the staff salary. The owner pays them almost nothing per hour and they depend on tips to make a living.
If the model worked the same way at a dealership, the dealership owner wouldn't pay much to salespeople (which they don't,) and the dealer fee would all go to the staff. It obviously not the case. You're basically saying that the restaurant owner would pay very little to the waiters *and* keep the tips.
When I was a sales manager in a new car dealership, those customers who presented me with one price "out the door + sales tax" always got what they wanted. That is the best way to get your price - out the door plus sales tax. Forget about all the fees, just do your research and make your offer. Tell the dealership you are making him a one time offer for a car you have selected.
I wish all my customers did that - I would have sold more cars and would have had happier customers. If you go into a dealership and start negotiating, the dealership usually has an advantage. When customers made one offer, the answer was either yes or now - no haggling and no "wasting time"!
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
Tips go to the house
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
That's a great tip, and there is an AAA office just a few blocks from me. I am going to see what I can find out over the next few days before I do anything though. There are millions of Canadians who come to Florida every year and a lot rent cars just to go to Disney World of something.
My guess is that they made this law but it is so impractical it won't be enforced. But, I am going to keep what you said in mind...because that would be the way to get an international license fast and easy, and we have our passports with us.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I would say that maybe 5-10% of the car buying population could do it that way. I certainly agree, but it's not as easy as it seems.
I did the one price OTD deal when helping someone buy an Altima. Didn't get my price because it was a demo and I cut too deep, but in the end with one counter offer the deal was done.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
2018 430i Gran Coupe
It is silly for a few reasons. First, if you read the article, the law was put on the books because the law enforcement officers were having trouble reading some foreign licenses that were issued, probably mostly non-English speaking countries. That would make sense if they just said your license has to be written in English, or you have to have an International drivers license.
The laws pertaining to driving are basically the same in Canada and the US. Our licenses (except Quebec where licenses could be in French and I could see where an IL would be appropriate in that case) are in English.
Remember, many millions of Canadians come to Florida every year, and they drive or rent a car. We are trying to make less red tape rather than more for travel between the two countries.
Such a law would not be of any benefit to any one, our license has all the information any law enforcement person needs, so it would be just a big inconvenience to insist on an international license. I bought a car and got it insured in Florida and I used my Canadian license, so even those people don't know about this useless law....created by people who have a problem - reading licenses that are in a foreign language - but, who don't realize thaqt there are other countries where English is also spoken.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
When I wanted the Mustang that's what I did locally. OTD! He actually made a point of diminishing the truck I was trading in after saying my offer wouldn't work.
He never gave me his price, but bashed my Ford at a Ford store. I said it's a Ford. I didn't build it. I took the exact offer to Roanoke where it was accepted. Then I bought the V6 2013 then traded for the V8 2013 four months later. I made sure the local guy heard about it. Small Town, everybody knows everybody. Then I did a bad review on Edmunds dealer forum on the local guy and an excellent review on the Roanoke dealer. Some dealers just suck eggs.
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
No disagreements here, mako! For every fair and/or decent dealer, there are 5 who, as you put it, "...suck eggs!" If a customer makes a "take it or leave it" offer, whether it is all cash or includes a trade, it just makes it easier for me as a manager - take his offer or not accept it. Remember, dealerships are not in business to make every potential customer ecstatic! They are in business to make money. But there are many ways to make money - through incentives, references by former customers, quantity rather than optimum profits on every deal.
It is the prerogative of the dealer to accept an offer. What I might sell a car for one week I would jump at the next week - it all depends on many variables, as you know. But a dealer who infuriates its customers is usually run by idiots!
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
Actually, I was in graduate school at the time and had gone home for a weekend for a funeral. One of my roommates took the keys from my desk and went joyriding without my authorization. When I got back to Chicago, and saw car missing from the parking space I left it in, I hit the ceiling. My roommate admitted to me what had happened and had the car towed to the Chevy dealership for repairs.
So, in answer to your question, no, I did not drive it over the stump!
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
To answer your question, there was no '14 E350 on the show floor. If there was, it looked an awful lot like the current edition, because it really didn't stand out at all. Plus, except for the Mercedes SUVs and the afore mentioned C350 coupe, all the rest of the cars on display were locked. And, whomever was manning the booth had no desire to really engage the crowd at all as they seemed to be running from people with questions. Go figure.
So, here are some pics.....Roadburner...here's one of a 4-door Fiat 500. Thought of you when I saw it...
I think this is the upcoming Lexus IS.....