Stories from the Sales Frontlines

bwia

We are under lockdown (shelter-in-place) in Boston. I got a call from school at 6:30 AM this morning cautioning to stay home today. For all those in the impacted areas of Watertown, Cambridge, and Alston/Brighton be careful.

robr2

It's absolutely nuts in Watertown. My brother works in the 20 block police zone.

michaellno

Thinking about my Boston friends this morning. Please be safe!

Hope the authorities can capture the second suspect quickly. Am on a conference call right now with some folks who are affected by the lockdown as well.

driver100

We are under lockdown (shelter-in-place) in Boston.

Sorry to hear that, but it is amazing how they caught up with these guys.

They narrowed down who did the Boston bombing using using security cameras and cell phone records to track these losers.

It is unfortunate you are caught up in this, but, good that they caught these cowards. I understand they want the last brother because they want him alive - he has some useful information.

robr2

They narrowed down who did the Boston bombing using using security cameras and cell phone records to track these losers.

...and then Facebook users and former class mates identified them. Amazing.

nyccarguy

Stay safe guys! We are all following this story very carefully!

driver100

...and then Facebook users and former class mates identified them. Amazing.

Yes, social media has also changed the game for investigators.

robr2

On another forum, there were people posting links to reddit and 4chan where people were pouring over photos posted there looking for people with back packs and then photos of them without.

FBI.gov was getting 300,000 hits a second when the photos went posted.

I used to work in the area they have cordoned off. It's surreal hearing the names of the streets around my old employer. The area is a combination of residential (1 and multifamily homes on small lots), offices, restaurants, a Lexus dealer, a couple of manufacturing plants, two malls, a UPS depot....

It's wild.

explorerx4

next door soon. My neighbors left for Germany to pick up a new BMW 3 at the factory.
I'll be interested to see it when it gets here.
It will be the wife's first BMW with an automatic.

driver100

photos posted there looking for people with back packs and then photos of them without.

Very clever!

They are saying that area of Boston looks like a war zone. It must seem unreal to you, knowing those streets during more quiet times.

Hope they find that last guy soon.

bwia

It will be the wife's first BMW with an automatic.

...thou shall not covet thy neighbor's wife.

kyfdx

...thou shall not covet thy neighbor's wife's car..

Fixed it...

explorerx4

I'm only reporting what's happening. The car I just bought is not a BMW. They are fun to drive, but not for me on a daily basis.

graphicguy

So...several weeks back I mentioned that my younger sister, who drives a recent vintage Camaro SS 'vert that is immobile in inclement weather, was looking for a "winter" car. Well, what started looking for 1-2 year old used cars, turned into looking for new cars.

I went with her to look at a few...namely new and used Accords, Altimas, Camry, Corolla, and an Acura ILX, which really isn't nearly as bad as I had read. Matter of fact, as much as the dealer seemed to be willing to deal, it isn't a bad deal at all.

So, since she couldn't make up her mind, I jumped out of the shopping 2-3 weeks ago. Figured since the winter was over, she wouldn't be looking for another car until next winter.

Well, she just left my house after showing me her new wheels...........

A demo 2013 black on black Acura TL SH AWD Advance. Supposedly, it was the General Mgr's (who I know personally) car. I bought from this same dealership before. I wished she would have had me involved, but maybe it's a blessing in disguise.

1,800 miles...I forgot how nice these cars are for the money. The redesign helps these cars out immensely. It's not as fast as the S4, nor does it handle as well, but it's close....and for $10K+ less, although she wouldn't tell me how much she paid....nor what she got for the Camaro.

Anyway, there's another Acura TL in the family.

nyccarguy

So she dumped the camaro? The sales mgr knows you.? He probably paid her to have you not walk into the dealer! Hope she likes it.

That drives me nuts when people ask my opinion about cars and just blatantly ignore my advice. As long as she's happy. What color combo? How long do you give her with it? 2 years?

The TLs are nice cars. Especially after the 2012 redesign in the SH AWD & SH AWD advanced forms.

tjc78

That drives me nuts when people ask my opinion about cars and just blatantly ignore my advice.

Yep, like my brother who just made the bonehead move of the year and traded in a paid off 05 Corolla for a leased Sienna. I told him to cash out of the trade and put zero money down. Nope! Whatever he got for the car (I'd assume at least 5k) he put down on the lease. No wonder his payment is only 225 /month. If that van gets totaled in the next few months he is out all that money.

tommister2

There is a name for those people - they are askholes. Google it :shades:

driver100

Here's the unit I was thinking of getting;

driver100

I wished she would have had me involved, but maybe it's a blessing in disguise.

I think you are right.

How does your sister support her car buying habit?

graphicguy

Not the way I would want to be financially comfortable, but my sister's husband passed away about 5 years ago. She received a very large insurance check because his passing was an accident.

In all frankness, she really hasn't been quite the same since he died and would give all the money back, plus much more if her husband was still with her.

She did inherit our entire family's love of cars. The Camaro was really more car than she knew what to do with. The few times she actually had the roof down, she said it "buffeted" too much. When the weather was bad, she was afraid of driving it. But, she bought her first new car....a Camaro Z28 after she got her very first job. And, has tried to duplicate that feeling ever since.

We all know that you can't go backwards.

I drove it several times. It's a beast....no doubt. Thinking back, it's probably the fastest straight line production car I've ever driven (and I've driven some really fast cars in the past).

I'd prefer a BOSS 302, but that's me.

NYC...she did trade the Camaro. I don't think they would club her, because I've done so much business with the dealership in the past. Still, I doubt they'll give me the details, but I am going to call the GM at the Acura dealership today to make sure they take good care of my sister. They're good people at the dealership. I doubt (hope) they would treat her as a lay down.

I really like what she bought, though. I never had a problem with the styling of this generation TL to begin with. They did make it look a lot better with the freshened styling, though. Black on black looks particularly good on the car.

Plus, it will suite her much better than the Camaro. Truth is, a 4 cyl Camry would have suited her just fine.

Be curious to see what number the dealership will put on the Camaro, or if they keep it on their lot.

robr2

Now that's more like it. IMHO, it beats the pants off that electric thing you were considering.

Overkill? Perhaps but it's better to be prepared - just in case.....

roadburner

That drives me nuts when people ask my opinion about cars and just blatantly ignore my advice.

That was my late mother's SOP, except sometimes she would take my advice, in which case I was always wrong. I finally told he that she had to make up her own mind on everything, I was no longer giving my opinion.

nyccarguy

Funny, my sister & brother in law did the same thing. They traded in his paid for 2003 Trailblazer (that was falling apart) for a new (leased) 2011 Explorer. I told them the same thing. Take the check you get from the dealer, deposit it into your account & use it to make your lease payments for X months. They put the money "down" as a cap cost reduction.

It is hard to be so passionate & knowledgeable about cars & car buying. Sometimes I wish I could just bite my lip & say: "yeah, that seems like a good deal." That's all people want to hear anyway.

driver100

We all know that you can't go backwards.

Thanks for answering. I had a feeling she was looking for some sort of happiness by buying a slick car....but, she would be better off buying something more practical.

I can understand how hard it must be for her under the circumstances. Hopefully the Accura will be the right car for her, enough flare and fun but still practical. Hope it works!

driver100

They put the money "down" as a cap cost reduction.

I think that for manyu people it is wise to use their trade in money as a downpayment so their monthly payment is more manageable.

Financially, not the best move if you can manage $0 down on a lease, but, some people will just spend that money and won't be able to make the monthly payments.

About getting into an accident in a leased car, I think there are ways to prevent that from being a problem.

I would say, putting downpayment money "down" on a lease is like a forced savings plan, or a plan to make monthly payments more manageable...it is a good disciplinary move if people have trouble saving money.

driver100

IMHO, it beats the pants off that electric thing you were considering.

lol...and not only that, I could park it right along the side of my house, right next to my obnoxious neighbor's house. Get even with him for cutting down those trees, and making his house look like Pompeii.

bwia

Financially, not the best move if you can manage $0 down on a lease

Generally that is a reasonable statement if you have a higher and better use for the down payment. But in this low interest rate environment, you would actually lose money "investing" the down payment in a savings account at 0.05%.

The economics of leasing is quite simple. The smaller the "cap cost" the smaller the monthly lease payments and related finance costs. I don't know what the implicit interest rate for the typical lease is today but I am willing to bet it is much, much higher than the savings rate. Put another way, the earlier you can save on payments (meaning lower lease payments) the greater the benefits of leasing because of the time value of money considerations. In short, apply the largest down payment possible to reduce your overall leasing cost.

As to the fear of losing your down payment should there be a crash....as *Driver mentioned that is what insurance is for. So, it is a simple matter of structuring the lease and insurance to minimize the risk of loss in the unlikely event of a total loss.

The leasing debate will continue forever but based solely on economic factors buying is "always" cheaper than leasing. Oh, oh, why did I have to bring that up? nonetheless, opposing viewpoints are welcome.

driver100

But in this low interest rate environment, you would actually lose money "investing" the down payment in a savings account at 0.05%.

However, if you invested your money in the stock market a year ago you could be ahead 10 to 15%. I guess I could say you could go to a casino and double your money too.

That is a good point though bwia, it probaby is a good time to pay down debt especially if it is at a higher interest rate than what savings could fetch.

The main point though, is probably, no blanket answer suits every situation or person, you have to make a decision based on each individual case.

bwia

Check that. At Bank of America and Citizen's Bank, my two primary banks, the current savings rate is 0.01%. On $5,000 that works out to be fifty cents per year. Yes, $0.50. How can seniors and people on a fixed income survive on such paltry low interest rates on their savings?

gogiboy

I'm like michaell. I have a 10 year old (at least) Sears mower that cost around $140. So far no repairs, but I have sharpened the blades myself a couple of times, then I discovered I could by a brand new replacement blade from sears for something like $10 so I did that the last time.

Mine is not self-propelled and I have a rather large, bumpy and somewhat hilly lawn so I have debated about getting an entry level self-propelled Honda. So far my prevailing arguments against are my lawn is just not that nice to justify a new mower and I get quite a bit of exercise pushing the old one around. Frankly, I'm not sure there'd be a big time savings in a new mower, but it would save toil and sweat. A third argument against is that my old mower still runs, only requires an oil, plug and filter change once a year. One good argument for replacement is that my mower is a significant polluter and most new mowers--especially Hondas will be less so, but virtually none of the gas powered lawn equipment is exactly low emissions.

I would say that there is often a fallacy that spending more automatically gets you a better product, but one has to define "better" for themselves. Paying more certainly does not always equal greater reliability as can be seen among those unfortunates who buy German cars out of warranty.

Gogiboy

driver100

Paying more certainly does not always equal greater reliability as can be seen among those unfortunates who buy German cars out of warranty.

But people do pay more for a German car out of warranty for a few reasons. 3 I can think of, I am sure there are more:

1) They want the prestige of driving an automobile that is considered more luxurious.

2) To boost their ego (if so inclined or needing such an emotion),

3) The joy of ownership outweighs the extra cost of repairs.

HIgher price doesn't always equate to a better product, but I think it does most of the time.

tjc78

Guys, unless there is something I don't know even with gap insurance and full coverage, if you total a leased vehicle early on you aren't seeing your down payment back. Not a huge deal if you just put down first payment and bank fee but a huge one if you roll 5k from a trade in into the deal.

explorerx4

I feel the same way. Lease rates can't be that high and you will have cash for a down payment on the next vehicle. If you vehicle is totaled, you don't walk away with any money.

nyccarguy

It was soggy & the roads were wet this AM, so I left the Prelude covered in the driveway & took the BMW to work this AM. How many people do you know that have a Honda as their good weather car & a BMW as their daily driver? So obviously that means Rebecca was driving around the world in the Pilot. After hitting tons of traffic trying to get home from work this afternoon, I oiled & gassed up my new Honda mower & spent the better part of 2 hours getting to know my 1 acre of property. I'm pretty impressed with the results. It's not Yankee Stadium, but it looks nice.

stickguy

well, that is the point. GAP insurance covers any "upsidedownness" so you walk away with nothing. But, you can end up losing a lot more if the car gets totaled early on.

simple math really. cap cost = 20K 6 months later it is worth 16K. if you put 0 down, GAP "eats" 4K. Put 3K down, GAP eats 1K, you eat 3K.

I actually like to check the lease offers in the paper. Sometimes they offer options (nothing down, $1,500 down, $3,000 down, etc.). And I have seen some where the total cost (DP + payments) is actually MORE putting money down than it is putting nothing down.

roadburner

When I had a .75 acre yard with nothing to trim around I used this puppy-equipped with a 60" mower deck-to cut it in less than 15 minutes:



Did I mention that I absolutely HATE spending time working in the yard?

driver100

But, you can end up losing a lot more if the car gets totaled early on

So many people say you would lose if you are in an accident early on if you put money down on a leased car. I have seen this on many different sites.

I find that hard to comprehend. If you lease a car you have insurance just as you would if you owned the car. Wouldn't the insurance company sort out the payment after the accident? If the car can be repaired they will repair it. If the car is a write off wouldn't they replace the car?

I am not arguing....just don't understand how you would lose. btw, it seems most insurance these days does cover the full replacement value.

jayrider

If the Cub had a cab, a/c and Harman Kardon, might make the experience a bit more pleasant.

mako1a

RB, when I saw that IH Cub I thought it was out of my picture album.

I used to restore old tractors and that one was my most costly, but had the best

return. I bought two IH Cubs (Lo Boys). One with a belly mower and one with

a scoop bucket. I was going to make one good tractor out of the two, but

decided to rebuild them both. The clutch pack and driveshaft were missing

from the bucket one so I purchased it and began the rebuild with my wife

doing the clean and paint on both. It was quite a chore, but came out just

like the one in the picture. Could be, maybe the one I refurbished.

roadburner

I hated to sell mine; Iwould have liked to restore it as well. The problem was that the lawn I have to mow now has a lot of tight places as well as trees and other things. Also, it was taking up a parking place in the outside garage. With the two ZTRs, my motorcycle, and two cars will also fit.

graphicguy

Mercy....that IH CUB made my Husqvarna go into therapy.

I thought I had too much tractor for my acre. NYC is cutting his with a push mower. And, RB is using an earth mover to cut his.

gogiboy

"Grills: We tossed away another rusty one, last fall.. The wife says the new one is going to be a Weber... Fortunately, we don't need a big one, so about $500-$600 ."

Ky--

I have an 8-10 year old Weber Silver Genesis (the smaller two burner model) and it has been a great grill. I had to replace a regulator at about the 6 year mark and Weber replaced it for free and without hassle. The one weak link on my Weber has been the porcelain covered metal "flavorizer" bars that sit below the grate. I replaced them at around the 6-8 year mark with stainless steel and did the same with the grates--although they didn't need it.

You mentioned tossing another rusty grill. I would recommend a cover (you may have been using one). My first cover was a cheapo Lowes one and it lasted two seasons before becoming brittle and tearing. I replaced that with a Weber cover, which was about double the price of the Lowes. The cover protects well and I have had it for at least 5 or more years. Only now is it getting a bit stiff, but there are no tears.

Despite their higher cost this is one manufacturer where it is worth it because of the quality of the gear and the fantastic warranty. I have also heard good reports on Green Egg grills if you want a true charcoal grill. Sure, they cost as much as a Rolls Royce and weigh about as much too boot. I have never seen so many high priced accessories. Almost nothing comes with the base model and add-ons "add-up" quickly. I think they must be using the same business model as BMW.

Gogiboy

Gogiboy

gogiboy

GG--

We have around an acre as well, but thankfully roughly 60% is a combination of steeply sloped woods and a pond. There is no way I could use my push mower (not even self-propelled) every week or two if I had a mowable acre. As it is my mowing and edging still take roughly an hour to an hour and a quarter. I see a mix of riding mowers and self propelled types except for the handful of folks who hire a lawn company. If my neighborhood hadn't been annexed by the city I might buy a goat.

Gogiboy

kyfdx

Yeah... I gave up on covers for the cheap grills, as they didn't seem to last, and those grills weren't going to make it, anyway... I'm pretty sure I'll get a cover for the Weber..

One thing that adds to the longevity of my Honda mower? 1/5 acre lot...

kyfdx

A totaled car is insured for replacement value. A $20K car might only be worth $17K, a couple of months later. If you made no cap cost reduction, the balance on your lease may be $19,500,... Your insurance pays $17K (car's current value). GAP insurance covers the other $2500, making the bank whole. However, if you had made a $2500 downpayment, then the current lease balance would be around $17K, which is the value of the car. Your insurance pays the $17K, but there is no GAP.

In the first example, you make two payments, car is totaled, and you walk away with no other outlay than the two payments. In the second example, you make a $2500 downpayment plus two slightly smaller payments, car is gone, and you are out an extra $2350 or so.. Your insurance company satisfies their obligation in both cases, with the same payout.

dino001

Good summary, just small correction of the first sentence. "Replacement value" in insurance language usually means that the entire 20K is insured, not depreciated 17K, as that's what takes to buy a car again, especially if it's only 2 months old. The common car insurance is for so-called actual cash value, some insurers offer full replacement values are riders (additional charge). The rest is correct.

driver100

Your insurance company satisfies their obligation in both cases, with the same payout.

Thanks for the explanation, much appreciated.

What I was thinking is, you have a $20K car that is in an accident and is a total write off in month 2. You have paid $2500 down and $250 a month for 2 months = $3000.

If you have full replacement insurance, why wouldn't the insurance company give the leasing company enough money to buy a new car for $20K, and you just resume making payments, as if nothing happened?

What am I missing?

driver100

"Replacement value" in insurance language usually means that the entire 20K is insured, not depreciated 17K,

Thanks for the extra information, and that might be part of the answer to my new question.

kyfdx

I agree.. while I have replacement value on my homeowner's insurance, I don't have it on my car. While I'm sure it is available, I'd guess it isn't common.

Also, how would that work with a leased car? Even if your insurance company agrees to replacement value, how much you put down is not their concern or responsibility. Analogous to that, if you had 0% financing and totaled your car, and that was no longer available, they have no responsibility to make you whole (even if you gave up a rebate to get the 0%).

Which is another good reason to take the rebate, rather than the low rate.

dino001

The best way to understand no downpayment on the lease is to realize it is a depreciation risk transfer vehicle (for a fee), i.e. transferring it from the driver to the finanse company. To put money down is to transfer the risk back to the driver. Considering that GAP is now part of modern leases (I believe it is by law, but others could confirm that), putting money down is basically paying GAP premium, still included in money factor, for nothing. Downpayment, or cap cost reduction, as it is known, does nothing to money factor. The payment is lower by virtue of lower basis and marginal reduction of finance charge due to the basis as well, but the depreciation risk is back to the driver. Bank would love that.

If the cap cost reduction was also lowering money factor, then it could be considered. BMW offers mutliple security deposit, reducing MF by placing money into that deposit. This is much better use of cash, if one has some than cap cost reduction.