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Make Me a Better (Online) Car Salesman!
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"And where might the consumer find manufacturer to dealer incentives? I've never seen them and I know Honda uses them big time instead of manufacture to consumer incentives."
Still waiting your answer. Nothing to say? Speechless?
http://www.edmunds.com/incentives/RebateController?step=1&setzip=52761&tid=edmun- - ds.n.incentivesindex.incentives.1.1.*
Does this help any? It is listed right on this website.
See where it says in that big column MANUFACTURER TO DEALER INCENTIVES?
I was simply saying that every dealer had the same old tricks when I called them. That is what I was getting at.
Here is a perfect example of how car dealers really are, I spoke to my mother and father today and they let me in on a conversation they had with the local Toyota Dealer. They were calling to check on the price of a Tundra that was sitting in the prime position on thier lot.
Mother: "I was interested in a truck on your lot. What price you are asking for the red Tundra on your lot in the front?"
Salesman: "We are having a big sale today through Sunday"
Mother: "So how much are you asking for the red Tundra"
Salesman: "There really isn't a price on the Tundra, we ar having our annual monthly payment sale, you should come check it out"
Mother: "What do you mean?"
Salesman: "Every car on the lot has a yellow tag in the window with our special monthly payment on it"
Mother: "I don't care about the monthly payment, I would be paying in full. What are you asking for the Tundra?"
Salesman: "Like I said, our prices are in monthly payments. If you want to see a cost of the truck, you can look at Toyota.com or Edmunds.com" (sidenote: I swear I am not making this up)
Mother: "You mean to tell me you can't tell me what you are asking total for the Tundra? How in the world do you figure the monthly payment if you don't know what it costs?"
Salesman: "Miss, I would be more than happy to go over everything with you at the showroom and explain. Would you like to set up a time?"
Mother: "No thanks. Goodbye"
If that isn't the perfect example of how things really are, I don't know what is. All of that happened TODAY and I will gladly provide the name of the dealership if you wish.
I would suggest your parents ask their Toyots owing friends and neighbors if they can reccomend someone to them.
Royce has gotta to be a dealer, because you can speak to him in plain English, yet he'll still grossly twist your words to serve his purposes.
Crandleman told you -- the first fourteen dealers didn't have the car he wanted in their inventory. He had a specific combination of options he wanted, and not many lots had them available.
Over the course of looking for this car, he encountered a lot of lousy sales guys. He would have met fewer had his car been on the first lot that he found.
Does that help, or you going to keep up this routine which, thus far, only confirms every negative stereotype of car dealers that the average American has?
Pretty much, yeah. You use Edmunds, and you didn't know this?
Duuuh.! ... you just figured that out.? .. how about reading someones profile before you post ..l.o.l... I'll bet you're late for dinner alot ..
I understand your gig ... we get a few folks like you with a big chip on your shoulder once in awhile here at Edmunds -- and of course, it's the dealers fault - it has to be ... just like the friend who's been lookin' for house for 5 months ... it's the greedy Realtors fault, it's the markets fault, it's the humidity, it rained yesterday, it's the banks fault, it's the alignment of Mars and Jupiter ........ everything but these few words: responsibility, research and knowing the market.
1.) Coupes don't sell well and not every dealer will stock them, especially with any hinky options ...
2.) He was told this about 14 times ..
3.) If was a dealer trade, they want a deposit before they chase after it and lose the holdback - business 101 ...
4.) Bud .. dealers will do anything to make a deal .. but they need a cooperative customer first ..
How about that Tiger Woods in match play ..... Thanks for stopping by.
Terry.
I just wish I could follow my own advise!
I try to pay the lowest price available. I don't care whether that is "fair" or not.
In my professional life, I often (not always) go for a win-win, because the relationship counts and the goal is to produce a consistently high level of return over time. But when it comes to buying a car, that doesn't matter. (Perhaps it would if I managed a fleet and had to buy often and in large quantities, but as an individual car owner, it doesn't mean a thing.) If you take my offer, that's as fair as it needs to be.
Incidentally, as does BMW, Audi has a holdback at an amount that it doesn't disclose. My guess is that it would be at a similar level to VW (2% of MSRP), but is adjusted based upon CSI scores, as is BMW's. In the case of BMW, holdback is used as a leverage tool to impact service levels at the dealer level, so I suspect Audi is doing much the same.
People with attitudes like the one you have towards all car dealers are yourself are thankfully a very very small minority.
Anyone in this business has met customers who think that they are God's gift to negotiation or buys eveything below what anyone pays for it...it sounds like you are that kind of person.
At least you are freely admitting that buying online is not the cheapest method. However, many internet buyers seem to want a rock-bottom bargain. I don't see how consumers would get one, given that negotiating to the low point generally involves tactics that aren't easily achieved online.
My guess, though, is that they'll generally compromise by paying more if given a true internet purchase option, i.e. minimal visits to the dealer, coupled with service styles and levels comparable to other online transactions. A lot of them will take a price that is "good enough", even if it isn't the lowest available, which is the approach that I advised to our original poster from the start. You seem to confirm my guess, although we don't know how your use the internet model.
People with attitudes like the one you have towards all car dealers are yourself are thankfully a very very small minority.
Sadly, you're right. Most people are either fearful of the process, or else sucker themselves into believing that they need to become buddies with the salesman in order to not get taken. The former shouldn't be intimidated, and the latter need to stop dreaming -- like any salesmen, dealers use these faux relationships to increase prices, not decrease them. (You don't spend added time schmoozing a customer just to lock in a lower profit.)
Anyone in this business has met customers who think that they are God's gift to negotiation or buys eveything below what anyone pays for it
You think too highly of yourselves. I have bad news for you -- consumers don't need outstanding negotiation skills in order to get a very good deal from a car dealer. As much as you'd like to think otherwise, you guys simply aren't that tough when up against a regular consumer with a reasonable level of self-confidence, a decent game plan and reliable information from websites like this. There will always be people foolish enough not to use that information, of course, so feel free to use that group to pull an extra profit.
In fact they even call the department "special accounts" I just recently remembered them, when I was looking for an 03 Odyssey back in 2002 when everyone in chicago was selling them for MSRP + dealer added options - they were taking orders for MSRP -1,500. No one could touch them.
The "only" stipulation was, this is the Ody we have we can't promise you color...etc unless you wanted to wait for who knows how long. From what I read at Edmunds, people who have purchased from them were satisfied.
Here is a link for you sales guys to see how they sell the "internet model" They are pretty unique in the Chicago market.
http://www.jacobstwin.com/html/sales/fs_sales.htm
Yes many Internet Buyers do want the best prices, and thats what healthy competition in a given area will give to them. If I make $500 on a $28,000 sale, is that too much? If I make $150 on a $16,000 sale is that too much? You see if the market in my area won't bear those prices, then I don't sell cars. Your answer would be yes that is too much. You see guys like yourselves really do feel that ANY profit a dealer makes is too much. I don't fault you for that thinking, but I wish you would spend as much time with other areas of your purchasing life and focus on them too.
What do I mean by that?
Lets say you go to the store and buy some milk...Mr. Grocer, whats your invoice price on this milk? Mr. Optician, I am only wiilling to spend $100 for these $500 eyeglasses. Hey I can do better than .39 for this stamp...you get the idea. But, this is the Internet and you can say whatever you want, right?
" A lot of them will take a price that is "good enough", even if it isn't the lowest available, which is the approach that I advised to our original poster from the start. You seem to confirm my guess, although we don't know how your use the internet model.
"
Our Internet model is this. We price our cars to the lowest we are willing to sell them for. The retail salespeople negotiate down to our Internet prices. My Internet guys give the price via email only, and after searching Autobase, hold there. The price is what it is, and I can tell you I've said goodbye to people for less than a cup of Starbucks coffee. You have to draw the line somewhere and if you let the customer know where your line is then there's no surprises.
"You think too highly of yourselves. I have bad news for you -- consumers don't need outstanding negotiation skills in order to get a very good deal from a car dealer. As much as you'd like to think otherwise, you guys simply aren't that tough when up against a regular consumer with a reasonable level of self-confidence, a decent game plan and reliable information from websites like this. There will always be people foolish enough not to use that information, of course, so feel free to use that group to pull an extra profit."
I guess what I find pretty irritating about this statement is that you try to turn a simple purchase into an adversarial negotiation.
You do realize that you just contradicted your earlier comment that internet buyers don't get the lowest price? (In #521, you stated: "I don't think that anybody makes the claim that the Internet is the cheapest way to buy a car.") Please, this isn't the showroom, so no double-talk here, please.
Lets say you go to the store and buy some milk...Mr. Grocer, whats your invoice price on this milk?
Do they teach you guys this supermarket analogy in dealer school?
It is a poor analogy, because people who understand the car business use invoice prices to negotiate. Very simple.
You might notice that Edmunds began as a competitor to KBB as a provider of -- you guessed it -- invoice prices! This website wouldn't exist were it not for the invoice prices.
If you followed the supermarket analogy by selling a car for a few pennies over your cost, then perhaps it would make sense. But you don't.
If I make $500 on a $28,000 sale, is that too much? If I make $150 on a $16,000 sale is that too much? You see if the market in my area won't bear those prices, then I don't sell cars. Your answer would be yes that is too much.
If you make $150 on a $16k car, then you are selling cars below invoice and giving away most of your holdback. Is that what you're doing?
I think there are two kinda buyers out there, those that are relationship driven and those that are cost driven.
My guess is the cost driven buyer is the one who will chew you up, and will demand premium service for economy price. Yet, you do need the cost driven buyer since they will help you meet sales goals and hit quotas.
Next, the relationship buyer is one who just understands that excellent service comes with a price and as long as they are taken care of are willing to pay a fair price, and will continue to come back to you for repeat business.
These buyers demand a little extra handling, but you can realy on to build repeat service.
It's like my car insurance guy. I have been with him for 12+ years, and I know with only a "15 minute call to the lizard" I can see if I can save money *bobble* But, you know what, in the 12 years with "my guy" when I had a problem its taken care of, when I have a question its answered timely and with advice. Is he the cheapest guy in town *headtilt* I have no idea but his premiums are fair and his service is excellent so there is no need to shop around.
Point of post is you can't be all things to all people, and while I don't think any one internet model is the best I do like this approach. Here is the one price, if you think you can do better come on in an haggle.
You have, like myself, fallen into his trap.
He seriously needs to be ignored.
Another good topic shot to hell!
My guess is the cost driven buyer is the one who will chew you up, and will demand premium service for economy price. Yet, you do need the cost driven buyer since they will help you meet sales goals and hit quotas.
Next, the relationship buyer is one who just understands that excellent service comes with a price and as long as they are taken care of are willing to pay a fair price, and will continue to come back to you for repeat business.
These buyers demand a little extra handling, but you can realy on to build repeat service."
Regrettably the guy who thinks that any profit a delaer makes is ripping off the customer is usually the same guy who wants the same dealership to go the extra mile for free.
We see this frequently. Here is a true story. We were trying to sell an S2000 to this guy. We made him a very good offer on this car. He took our numbers and shopped it around, lo and behold this dealership 30 miles away sold him the car for the same price...less the set of wheel locks we had on our car. So you could say that $76 was the difference to him. (we were at invoice on the S2000)
The S2000 wasn't exactly right to him, and he made trip after trip to the other dealership for things that the dealership couldn't find...noises, etc. Finally the other dealership said "Enough!...there's nothing wrong with this car"
So, now the guy comes to us (three times). We are less than 5 miles from his house. We look at his car and there really isn't anything wrong with the car, and we told him that. But the guy wants a loaner car...and when we tell him that our loaner cars are for customers that have purchased their vehicles from us, well we are now the dirty rotten ba%tards.
Thankfully most customers aren't like that. I am the same as you in that when I get good service I stay with them.
"Point of post is you can't be all things to all people, and while I don't think any one internet model is the best I do like this approach. Here is the one price, if you think you can do better come on in an haggle."
Agreed
What do I mean?
Lets see we just sold off our major Ports to be run by a Mid-Eastern company...maybe we need some of their negotiating skills with that.
I'm sure we could make a long list for where they could be really effective with their negotiating skills. I guess that chisling a dealership over $100 is better for them.
Back on topic.
The guy I was emailing about one of Lexi had his wife stop by yesterday since she was in the area.
If you remember this is the guy that wanted our best price over email and I explained how I could not do that.
Now I will explain why I think that is not necessarily the best idea. Our car has navigation in it which is a fairly rare option on RX300's of this year. She had never seen the nav so did not know how it worked and was wondering if there was a monthly fee to use it. After I explained how there is no fee and this is how the nav worked, very advanced for its time with touch screen controls, I think she understood why we had set the price we had for the car. The option brand new was close to 3,000 dollars I think and on the wholesale side is considred about a 1,000 dollar add.
I also showed her that the car had brand new brakes in the rear and new tires all around. I could not have really communicated any of this effectively online. I sent her off with a price and he emailed me back saying that was not low enough and used to sell cars so he knows how it is. After talking it around since the car is so fresh on our lot we couldn't give him more then just a few hundred dollars off.
I actually sent him the URL of this thread since he used to be in the business and seems to be really intersted in pure online transactions.
So lets see if he comes by.
Mr. Pot meet Mr. Kettle.
Crandleman told you -- the first fourteen dealers didn't have the car he wanted in their inventory. He had a specific combination of options he wanted, and not many lots had them available.
Here is my question, every time I look for a specific car with specific options that the dealer doesn't have the dealer can find it for me. Why couldn't he let the salesman at one of the first dealerships find the car he wanted?
Things just don't add up right.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
... except that you just did.
How about: "The RX300 has touch-screen navigation, new rear brakes and 4 new tires."
Why on earth would I have to travel to a dealership instead of reading a single sentence in an online reply?!?
This is why I really do not consider salesman the evil empire. I own my own business and if someone is willing to pay X for something why would I not charge X.
The saleperson is not an advocate for the buyer, his job is to maximize the dealers profits, which in turn will put more money in his pocket.
As far as "waisting your time" I disagree with this, if you have guy in your office- you have a buyer and if your choice is make a quick mini and go try my luck on the sales floor or maximize my profits with a willing buyer.
When you have to put food on the table for you family crandleman I would want to make the most I can.
I agree, there are "games" "tactics" that are employed which maximize the dealers profits, don't hate the dealer, just get up and leave.
Do your reasearch, determine what is "your" price and let time work for you. If you don't need a car today, get up and leave and let the salesguy know this is what you want to pay--when the deal is right for him call you.
Either eventually your deal will make sense for someone or you are too low. The buyer who decides he is going to buy a car today is the one who will always give up the most.
We have choices and one of those choices is not to buy, don't hate them for it, just move to someone else.
I agree with you, if you go to 15 dealers and all of them are bad either you're real unlucky or maybe the problem is you. People do go into this with a bad attitude (sometimes with good reason sometimes not) that taints their entire experience. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
email me-
What? 15 dealers and not one would do a courtesy check for you? That doesn't sound right.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Remember, you are here to enjoy yourself :P
If you have never seen a navigation display then how do I communicate over pure text what it looks like. I mean I guess I could shoot a short movie of it working with sound but that is still not the same. Most people have never seen nav in a RX300 cause it is a rare option.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Nobody ever even asked a question about nav until the car was seen in person. Turns out they really were curious if the nav had a subscription fee but they did not ask me if it did on email. That did not happen till the car was seen in person. I can't answer a question that someone has unless they ask it.
I too would really appreciate a clear quote when I ask, but my experience has been very mixed. I've recently checked into a Mazda with a few dealers here in Chicagoland. Jacobs Twin answered with basically MSRP, at least it was a quote. Roto Mazda called immediately but did not email depite my explicit request for an email quote. Muller Mazda writes to say they'll be in touch (two message within 4 days) but they never got back with a quote. Autobarn in Evanston didn't even reply. Rosen Mazda was quick in responding with a real quote that seemed pretty good. Liberty Mazda was great in answering and keeping in touch with me, even informing me of auto show rebates, and giving a very good quote.
So, I would concur with those above. If a dealer advertises to provide a quote through Edmunds or other sites then they should at least do that.
I suppose you could argue I did not look serious enough from a dealer's perspective, but you can be sure that I won't be looking to work with the dealerships who didn't respond. Answering inquiries honestly and in a timely manner seems really important to me if you really want me to think about being your customer.
Amen to that.
I don't see any problem. A business selling a product is not required to set a price for the product. If she wanted to buy the vehicle, then she could have made an offer.
If someone has something that you want, then you can offer to buy it. That's how it works.
Golic, I think the relationship buyer is a person who believes they will get better service if they pay more for the product.
From my experience, they will often be disappointed.
Actually, I just polled 17 people I work with. I asked the simple question, "What do you think of Car Dealers?"
I got 4 positive and 10 negative and 3 neutral. I would be willing to bet it is that way across the county.
Why do you think sites like Edmunds even exist?? They were created as a resource for research and invoice prices so people would quit getting ripped off by dealers.
Really? Just about every dealer I have been to that didn't have the exact car I wanted told me they can get it from another dealer.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
From my experience, they will often be disappointed.
Exactly. A customer who pays more is not going to get more service.
I get the same warranty repairs, the same maintenance, the same loaner policy, etc. etc. as the guy who paid MSRP. I doubt that my salesman is even employed by the dealership anymore. (For the record, I've never actually asked.)
Exactly how would I be getting any added benefit out of this "relationship" by paying more?
These simple suggestions have been met with shock and horror by nearly every car salesman on these boards, which like SoCal stated, shows quite a bit how you guys think. Even when presented with simple suggestions of a business model that works for nearly every other product in every other price range, a car salesman still can't fathom it.
It goes against the way you were trained to think and trained to do business.
One of the great divides I see on here is that what a salesman thinks of as "providing excellent customer service" and what a segment of internet customers think are two entirely different things.
An internet customer wants someone to give him a hassle free competitive quote. We don't want to be asked to come in, call you, shoot the breeze, etc. THIS IS WHY WE ARE ASKING OVER THE INTERNET. WE DON'T WANT TO TALK TO YOU OR MEET YOU IN PERSON.
The salesman seems to think that they have to try and funnel these customers into the store so they can ultimately be dealt with in the traditional manner of selling.
Why is a salesman unable to change his methods to the person? Why do salesman insist on treating a clearly knowledgeable customer like any other Joe Idiot that walks in the door.
Seriously, I don't hate dealers or salespeople, but I hate the way that they are unable to adjust to the situation or customer.
If I was a salesperson, I guess I would make good money off of the idiot that walked in and had no problem forking over MSRP. I would spend a good amount of time with them and make my highest profits. Then if someone walked in that clearly knew what they wanted and at what price, I would cut the act and get down to the lowest number as quick as possible. Why waste time playing the traditional game? I would accept the fact that the deal was going to be a "mini" and try to make it happen ASAP. I wouldn't waste my valuable time.
I actually suspect that most salesman would do this, but the pressure from the sales manager or the GM is what really screws things up. They demand that even the knowledgeable customer be put through the traditional song and dance before you ultimately get the best price. My guess would be that the GM or the sales manager are the biggest idiots in the whole system. They demand the charade be played no matter who it is.
You think that it's that low? :P
Oddly enough, I was just looking quickly via a search engine on this very topic, and the automotive trades are publishing survey data that indicates the contrary. Frankly, I find that very hard to believe, based on the people who I know, but perhaps they read these surveys and conclude that everybody adores the profession.
I think in any situation, that if you are working with someone who is answering all your questions, making reccommendations and providing you not just ordinary service but above the norm. This buyer realizes their is a price for this.
Examples, I think mackabee has stated he drove cars out to buyers and rover stated he spent three house with a guy going over the lease calculations. I think those are examples of going above the call.
If a salesman offered to do these "extra" things for me, I think it would just be not fair for me to "beat" him down for another $50-$100.
And I agree, I wouldn't expect any special favors for just overpaying.
That is why we TIP at the end of the meal in today's time.
What if my mother had offered $10,000? I would bet the salesman would be offended, which is essentialy what he did to my mother.
We do understand this and in our Dept we are more than happy to give prices and check availability etc. However, there IS a time when you must be face to face. That time is during your delivery, or having your trade appraised. Everything else can be done via phone, email or fax.
I educated him about how a lease works and what putting a ton of money down at the front changes things. The next time he goes to lease a car he will get a better deal because he is better informed. If he comes back to me to lease another car I would hope that he would not grind me to the end of the earth in consederation of our past experiences.
Personally, were I a young man starting out in this business, I wouldn't give inordinate amounts of time to "grinders" either. I'd rather deal personally with people and establish an enduring relationship with them. My job might require that I work very hard on each sale, even at small profit, but my job would never require me to take any abuse from anyone.
I like the guy who sold me my car. I can call him up and ask him questions. He speaks up for me in the service department. He's been very helpful. Had I spent five hours in a haggling fistfight with him to save $250, I don't think he'd give me the time of day when I called.