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Comments
The gasket product was changed in the 1998-1999 period. I don't know exactly how.
GM should have stepped up and paid part of cost of UIM replacements. That has hurt them drastically, IMO.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I asked her if that is supposed to happen while going down the road or what advantage it is to have a burning motor drop onto the ground still under your car? Does anyone know what the salesman is trying to do?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Where on earth do they find these salespeople. I love it!
There is the insulation above the engine, held on by something which looks like plastic fasteners. In a fire, they allow the insulation to drop and smoother the fire. Well maybe. The engine dropping is of course the now common action of the engine moving out of the occupants area in a crash. I like the mix of the two!!!
-Loren
Insurance and registration, plus taxes add up to a horrendous burden on the Camry owner in your example. We're talking about another thousand or more every year, so it's about $200 a month difference. And that's a stripped-down Camry at that.
The real "deal", though, is to buy the luxury car when it is 5-8 years old. It's depreciated down to almost nothing, you don't need comprehensive on it - no loan - you paid cash(5-8K at most), and registration is something around $100-200 a year. It's possible this way to get a car to drive for about $200 a month, everything included(plus gas, of course). My sister just bought a Civic - $321 a month, plus registration, insurance, and so on.
I told her to buy a 3-4 year old Buick(to replace her 18 year old Buick with 200K+ on it) for 3-4K less, but she wanted new. Now she's wondering how she's going to afford food for a while. (okay not THAT bad, but it's tight)
-Loren
You will definitely save money with a good "used" car. The operative word is "good".
If you get a :lemon: you will be :sick: and will
IMExperience, people usually trade in their car when it starts giving them problems.
Now, for short trips, nothing urgent, you could be better off with a used car.
However, if you commute about 50 miles each way to get to work every day, or use your car for business, or don't have time to wait around garages or don't do your own repairs, you will probably be better off with a new car.
Buying the first new car is hard, because you should pay as much as possible down. Then the important factor is the difference in price between your trade in and the next new car. Once you are in the loop, IMO driving new is not that much more, and you will have much more reliable and safer transportation.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Cash is the way to go. You don't buy something like an Olds. Regency for a lot of money, if you think cash, and do not buy on time. My how stupid I was. That dropped like to a third value in under four years. And it was troubled car at that. With GM a used car may have all the 90 day bugs out, if we are talking the good ol' days. Used was just as reliable or better. New GM now should yield a better car delivered.
-Loren
MantaRallye
Can no longer find a good RWD four cylinder. Recall the Capri and later on the Nissan 240SX. Great little cars for sport. Heck, the Opel Manta Rallye looks better than most cars today. :shades:
-Loren
I had a used 60 something Falcon, 65 Galaxie (that was pretty good) and a 67 Galaxie (that was a lemon) and that kind of got me to try for new. It was a stretch but my first new car was a 1973 Ford Maverick with a V-8 $2,400 + $600 trade in on the lemon 76 Galaxie, that someone would have bought unfortunately). Really liked that car and not too many problems until about 80,000 miles.
It was a struggle to pay for that one at the time, but after it is paid for you have a chance to keep trading every few years, and unless you are really lucky with a good used car, I don't think you will pay that much more.
New will cost more....but for convenience, safety, and if you are not much of a gambler...I think your odds are better.
Now on a different note;
HAS ANYONE SEEN THE MOVIE "CARS"?
It has my favorite actor, "Larry the Cableguy".
I want to know if it is worth seeing!!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
That is a great looking car. It does look better than most of the cars on the road today. Great styling will never get dated.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Or compare a $17K Civic to a $12K 4-5 yr old LeSabre. Honestly, both engines are about equally reliable - the 3800 is near indestructable. The rest of the car - the LeSabre is built stronger and thicker in most areas, so even if it ages much poorer, it's about a wash as well.
But 4-5K pays for a lifetime of repairs on the Buick, plus there's another 3-5K you save over the first five years in insurance and registration($800 for my sister's new Civic for the first year!) easily makes up for any depreciation difference.
New just isn't the way to go unless we're talking about a Hyundai and keeping it for the full ten years. In that case, you'll come out ahead.
HAS ANYONE SEEN THE MOVIE "CARS"?
It has my favorite actor, "Larry the Cableguy".
He doesn't play that retarded, Jim-Bob Walton-looking tow truck, does he?
That's him...... Toe-mater!!!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
OK, the Buick has 75,000 miles. You would be lucky to get 5 more years and probably have to allow for $1,000 a year in repairs. At the end of 5 years it is worth $2,000. Total
$10,000 cost plus $5,000 repairs = $3,000 a year for 5 years.
New Sonata pay $25,000. After 5 years worth $7,000 (probably would be higher). $18,000 divided by 5 years is $3,600. If the car is good could go for 10 years, add $1,000 a year for repairs..and worth zero after 10 years. 10 years for $25,000 plus $5000 = $3000 a year. Might not be worth keeping it.
Cost of insurance, cost of financing will be less with used car. If it is a good car you will come out ahead, but I have had friends who spend more getting their used cars fixed, and they could have had a new car (maybe a more basic car but reliability counts for a lot).
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
In terms of dollars and cents, the 95 Riviera was an early model and I drove it 4 years and it was still 3 years old when I bought the 98 Aurora. The Riv cost about $30,000 new and I got $16,000 for it on trade for the 98 Aurora which cost $30,000. So that was about $3500 per year. The Aurora I kept 4 years and traded for the 2002 Seville. The $50,000 Seville cost $40,000 and I got about $12,000 for the Aurora, so the Aurora's cost was about $4500 per year, perhaps less as I had it 4.25 years. If I keep the SLS for 10 years, without too much repairs, I may get the cost down to $4000 per year. If I were to trade the SLS in now for something I wanted, it would probably be worth around $12,000. It is nearing 4 years old, so that is $7000 per year at the moment.
The Sonata priced from $17K to $21K is a pretty darn good deal, dollar wise, with that long warranty. In California we figure around 10% for tax and lic. so all things considered new cars do cost a bit more. Insurance is gonna be higher for one thing. The LeSabre in the example you are using is going to be a softer ride for long drives and the Sonata more snappy to drive.
Now-a-days, I think most cars go a couple years between needing things fixed until after say 90K or so. I would look for a Buick with say 30K to 50K so it provides more years of service. Not saying it won't last 200 to 300K, just saying he odds of needing more service done.
If you put lots of miles on a car, maybe the Elantra, which is less expensive is a better drive to its death car???
In used cars, just about any Ford except the Mustang, or any GM except the CTS seems to be a bargain real soon. I see prices holding for CTS, but have not checked private sales -- dealerships are high.
-Loren
I do like Hyundai car price to content ratio - excellent.
Lots of other cars to consider too.
-Loren
* The optimum time to get a used car is when it is one to three years old. Most depreciation happens in the first year, and you still have most of the good miles left.
* You should probably buy a Camry. On the Camry discussion they claim they can get 300,000K on a Camry.
* If you only spend a few hundred dollars in repairs on a used car you are lucky. GM gaskets are going, transmissions, computers, brake jobs, radiators, front ends, catalitic converters, breakdown out of town, late for work - fired, etc. can be $1,000's a year.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Cadillac should be careful that median age does not go too low, in most states you can't drive until 16.
OK, the Buick has 75,000 miles. You would be lucky to get 5 more years and probably have to allow for $1,000 a year in repairs. At the end of 5 years it is worth $2,000. Total
$10,000 cost plus $5,000 repairs = $3,000 a year for 5 years.
Seriously - what ARE you smoking? My father had a 1988 Park Avenue(fancy LeSabre - same body at the time) that he didn't spend $10K in repairs in *15* years on. Not even half that. The thing finally died with over 200K on it and the engine never having had a single penny spent on mechanicals.(timing finally went out - sister decided it wasn't worth spending $700 to fix) She beat the crud out of it the last six years in college and spent a whopping 1500 on it.
A 8-9 year old Buick is closer to 4K, actually. The depreciation slows way down once you hit 6-7 years. And 30-40K mile examples are plentiful, thanks to the super high average buying age.(60+, IIRC)
So, it's more like 8K in depreciation plus another 2K for the extended warranty you bought, since it was a factory certified car. 10K for 5 years - about 2K a year. You just have to buy the warranty.
Of course, if I was comparing a used Honda, you'd probably agree. Lol. Gotta love the bias in these groups.
I doubt too many people would be paying $12K these days for 4-5 year old LeSabres with 75,000 miles on them. 75,000 miles isn't considered low-mileage, no matter how old the car is. Even though cars can go much further, there's still a stigma attached to the 100,000 mile barrier, so many people would look at a 75K mile car and think they it only has about 1/4 of its life left.
So, your father bought a "new" 1988 Buick and kept it for 15 years. Average cost was $2,000 a year. I did say, if you buy new and the car is good, keep running it, you will come out ahead. But, even in this example, it would probably cost another $1,000 to $1,500 a year to ride in a new car every 5 years, and you have some insurance nothing will go wrong.
My neighbour had $5,000 repairs on a 5 year old Jaguar and a 4 year old Concord just after the warranty ran out.
A used car can be a real gamble (after reading Consumers Report he bought a demo Lexus with no problems).
If you buy a demo Camry or Honda and keep it for 10 to 15 years you will probably maximize your car buying dollar.
Most depreciation is in the 1st year. The best miles are early in the cars life. If you pay half of the original cost of the car and have it for the 2nd half of it's life, IMO the chances you will come out ahead of the game are not great.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
He recently bought a 95 LeSabre, painted it, and turned it in about 5 weeks.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You can find a used Buick with 5,000 to 6,000 miles per year?
A 8-9 year old Buick is closer to 4K, actually. The depreciation slows way down once you hit 6-7 years. And 30-
40K mile examples are plentiful, thanks to the super high average buying age.(60+, IIRC)
If you can get a 6 to 10 year old car with 40,000 miles for $4,000 it's no contest...you win. For that kind of price I'll by the gd Buick!
Another thing about these 10 year old cars. Don't any of your states have safety or emission control check ups? These can get costly too....and hopefully you have a garage that doesn't rip you off with every visit.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
A 4-5 year old Buick will as a guess be worth 40% of it's new car price. At $30,000 that is $12K. If the car depreciates more than that (BMW has least depreciation at over 60% of original price) than anyone who buys a new Buick should seek immediate financial planning help....it begs the question why would you buy such a disasterous investment. The only reason a car depreciates so quickly is because people don't want them, and people don't want them because they are not a good value. Real or imagined, they aren't worth much. GM had better build better cars, it is very poor marketing that people wait for your cars to become used so they reach a price so low - that consumers will actually buy one.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Most people don't realize how much a used car costs, $200 here, $400 there. It adds up, tires, batteries, brakes, transmissions, gaskets, heaters, catalytic converters, mufflers, on board computers, towing, being stranded out of town, radiators, front end work, ball joints, etc. The $1,000 is average, some years might be $300, but somewhere you'll need a $2,000 transmission work if you are taking it to 200,000K's!
I do repeat, if you don't go far, drive around town a lot, are not dependent on that car being the only way to get to work...buy a good used car, you will be further ahead.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
It's a lot cheaper than a 30K$ new car.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
It all comes down to picking used or buying new carefully:
1998 LeSabre
>tires,
I put on a set of Harmony tires. I got to pick my tires; I didn't have to take the tires the manufacturer picked for the vehicle. I hated the originals, followed by X-Ones, then Harmony.
>batteries,
I put an $80 Walmart battery in my 98 five years ago--16$ per year so far-still good (it'll die tomorrow since I bragged on it)
>brakes
Were done (by me) at about 80K miles. I'll let you know when I need to do the ceramic front pads again-$50?
>transmissions
Replaced fluid in it several times (we're at 135K mi) and two filters over lifetime. About 15$ fluid, $15 filter.
>gaskets
Haven't had any gaskets
>heaters
Bypassed troublesome plastic connector on vacuum hoses that softened after 100Kmiles and 6 years. NAPA gave me 6 inches of 1/8 inch gas line to reconnect tiny vacuum hoses free.
>catalytic converters
Don't hear of any problems with cats on these H bodies and don't anticipate any. Oxygen sensor is doing fine, too.
>mufflers
Came with stainless system. Don't anticipate replacement soon.
>on board computers
Doing fine. Just bought my son a $1500 HP laptop for game playing that will be on board for our trip to Nashville, but I don't think that's what we mean.
>towing
Haven't had that. AAA and Road Hazard insurance will cover that doubled.
>being stranded out of town
???
>radiators
Don't see signs of radiator seeping at end caps.,
>front end work
???
>ball joints
I've lube them every 3-5K miles. Would worry more about sealed ones on a new car-like my 03 LeSabre. I don't like sealed joints. I'd rather crawl under and lube the suckers.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
CARS - Movie fans
Gotta run now, I'm off to do some tractor tipping :P
The test is every two years, and costs $14.00. If you're late, they assess a late fee of $15 every two weeks. If you fail the first time, you're entitled to a free re-test. And if you fail the second time, I think if you get at least $450 worth of emissions-related work done, and the thing fails a third time, they give you a waiver.
If the car is a 1976 or older, there is no emissions test. And if it's at least 25 calendar years old (1982 models will be eligible on 1/1/07) then if you get historic plates then you're exempt from the test. But then you also can't drive the car as much, either.
As for safety inspections, in Maryland you only have to get a used car inspected when you first buy it. There's no annual thing. In Pennsylvania, Virginia, and I think West Va, they do annual tests. I don't think they're as rigorous as Maryland's 1-time thing. At least, I do have this example...back in 2002 I bought a 1979 New Yorker from a little used car lot in West Va, about 2 hours away. The seller said he'd guarantee it to pass Virginia, PA, or West Va, but in Maryland I was on my own! :surprise: It didn't need much though to pass, about $200 worth of work total. It needed some brake work, minor suspension work, one new tire (I ultimately replaced all 4 though) the obligatory headlight realignment, and maybe a bulb or two that I didn't catch but they did.
As for Buicks as the age, the only horror story I can think of is one of my aunts. Been a few years since I've seen her, but she and her husband had a '91 or so Park Avenue, dark blue with a gray lower accent that looked gorgeous. Only problem is, the computer system was shot on it. It was driveable, but I forget what all was wrong with it. Her husband said that to really fix it right would be about $4,000. And he WORKED at a Buick dealership, so it's not like he was getting some song-and-dance routine from them.
Thanks for the review. I will see it first chance I get. The reviews say to see it again to catch all the things going on in the background.
I'll check the link too!
Hey, I think we take you for granted at times, but you have been a great HOST.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I saw a MINT Cadillac Brougham exactly like yours pal in my drivers side rearview approach me. Same color. I was like OMG that looks just like lemko's.
Lemko, I never knew those cars had 5.0's :surprise:
They are very Cool though :shades:
Rocky
OK, check out this sight, I'll copy the first review of a 1997 LeSabre;
link title
Weaknesses:
Shortly after I got the car (at 38,700 miles) the valve body assembly went bad and cost me about $650. At 52,841 miles, the alternator went, costing me almost $300. At 62,755 miles, the water pump went, costing me over $200. At 82,566 miles, the plastic radiator blew a hole in it and it had to be towed, again costing me almost $300. At 91,064 miles, on a trip to New York, the plastic intake manifold blew, costing me almost $700. and ultimately ruining my engine. At 92,786 my air conditioning went, costing me almost $400. I had the AC fixed, only now to be faced with the purchase of a new engine at over $3,000!!!
I have to say most people gave very favorable reviews and many went 200,000 - 250,000K with little or no problem. With my luck I would get the one above.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I find the Buicks that do 200,000K with no problems hard to believe!!! :confuse:
If I knew I could get 200,000 K from a Buick even I would buy one...even if I did sink all the way down to the floor in those seats, even if I had to slow down and take curves at 30 mph from sloppy cornering, even if it gets me from A to B with no feel of the road or adds no driving pleasure or fun to my life.
On second thought it will still cost me $2,000 a year ($1,500 plus $50 month for tires and maintenance), so I would rather have a new Camry every 5 years for about $1,000 more a year (probably save some of that in cost of oil and gas anyway). But that's just me - I'd rather not gamble that I would actually come out ahead keeping a car for 20 years.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Note that is LeSabres and Park AVenues, H-bodies...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I still have trouble believing all those things went wrong. That just ain't the pattern on leSabres. Odd that post just got found.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Engine: Average
Cooling: worse than average
Fuel: worse than average
Ignition: better than average
Transmission: worse than average
Electrical: Much worse than average
a/c: average
suspension: average
brakes: average
exhaust: better than average
power equipment: average
paint/trim/rust: better than average
integrity: average
hardware: better than average
Overall verdict: average
Now one thing to keep in mind is that these numbers can change from year to year. For instance, this is how the 1997 LeSabre stacked up compared to other 1997 cars, in the survey that was compiled for 2005. For 2006, it could score entirely different. And for 2004 it may have been different as well.
Just for kicks, what years of Honda/Acura were supposed to have the transmission problems? This buying guide shows 1996-2003 models, and the worst I'm seeing is "average" for the '01-02 CL/TL tranny, and also for the '98-99 Odyssey minivan.
Also, when you ask someone to name one troublespot on Chrysler products, the transmission is usually the first thing that comes to mind. However, according in this issue, the only really horrible ones seem to be the minivans, which look pretty scary from 2000 and back, showing black dots aplenty. The Intrepid/Concorde ranged from worse than average to better than average depending on year, but from all the horror stories you year on the internet and other places, you'd think these things would be dropping left and right!
Anecdotally, I've heard that Explorers and Windstars are infamous for dropping the tranny, but CR shows no black marks for the Explorer, although the 4wd model did get a few "average" marks depending on year. The Windstall mustered up "worse than average" in '96 and '98-99, but again, if they were failing as much as the horror stories might lead us to believe, I'd expect to see a lot more full-black marks.
Yes, if the goal of Cadillac is to sell to Boomers or younger - but they are rapidly abandoning the aging rich crowd who used to drive them, and are now buying Lexi and Town Cars instead. If Ford had their act together, which they most decidedly do not, Lincoln could steal all of Cadillac's former customers easily. Old people are made every day, there is an inexhaustible source of them, and they will buy cars, nice cars from someone. It amazes me how both Ford and GM are afraid of selling their cars to old folks. Like they're all dying. More of them are made every day than die. And now, GM is ruining Buick, trying to pare downt the buyers age there too. Don't you know, GM, that the folks you have ripped off making Cadillac so "young appealing" and edgy, have been moving to Buick? Now, they'll be going across the street to Mercury and the venerable
Grand Marquis or Town Cars.
It's a tough business problem for all of the automakers. Each of them strives to increase the LTV (LifeTime Value) of a customer, meaning that the goal is to get a customer to buy several cars over the span of a lifetime, not just a couple at the end. A brand that is focused on the current crop of elderly buyers, if left unchanged, is doomed to dies with its aging customer base.
The problem for FoMoCo and GM is that brands such as Lincoln and Buick may attract the older buyers of today, but are not likely to capture the younger generation even as they age. They are going to have make some radical moves if they hope to turn the fortysomething Toyota buyer of today into a Buick buyer 10-20 years from now.
The point is all cars have problems but the biggest aspect is how the vehicle is maintained and driven on a daily basis. The transmission in my wife's first two Honda Accord's started slipping because the often reversed and put the car in drive while the car was still moving rearward. This is not Honda's problem but the drivers.
The car compaines with the worst practice's tend to be European. BMW's SMG transmissions give plenty of trouble and VW's are also earning a negative quality issue.
As for the 3800 engine I have only one experience with a co-worker and his did have over 200,000 miles and was still going strong (the rest of the interior was coming loose).
The key difference is that Motor Trend reported the results of one truck, while CR collected data from many truck owners.
Given that, the CR result should be more useful, because it obtained its data from the results of many trucks, not just one. This would be true whether Motor Trend had great luck with the truck, or if the truck proved to be a lemon, you can't judge an entire car line based upon just one specific unit.
The point is all cars have problems but the biggest aspect is how the vehicle is maintained and driven on a daily basis.
That's true to a point, but even if you baby a poorly engineered car, you probably still won't have great luck with it. You can destroy a perfectly good car by mistreating it, but a bad car will still be bad, even if is treated meticulously.
The transmission in my wife's first two Honda Accord's started slipping because the often reversed and put the car in drive while the car was still moving rearward.
That's a great point. My suggestion to those of you buying used automatic cars from private parties -- make some excuse for the seller to do a portion of the test drive, and observe how they treat the transmission. If they tend to go between forward and reverse without stopping completely, then move on and buy another car, you don't want to pay to rebuild the product of years of their abuse.