General Motors discussions

ubbermotorubbermotor Member Posts: 307
Olds is officially gone. 2005 sales totaled 1400. When they announced it would be fazed out in 2000 Oldsmobile had finished a decade long slide in sales. Car sales alone had dropped from 489492 in ’90, to 216801 in 2000. Buyers would migrate to other divisions and GM would save the cost of managing and advertising America’s longest running make. At least that was the Theory. So now that its done, does it still seem like a smart move?


  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    The Aura sheet metal is decent, but it was watered down from the Opel Vectra.

    Also, that sheet metal is hiding a G6 underneath. How many rebodied Malibus does GM need?
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    There has been speculation in the press about a GM/Toyota merger.

    How would the nuts and bolts of this merger work out if it happens?

    IMO Toyota would bring disiplined business practices to GM. Toyota would handle the development of GM's marquee brands such as Cadillac and Corvette very well.

    Toyota would benefit from the GM lineup of pickups (mid and full size) as well as SUVs such as the Suburban, Yukon et al.

    How would the individual brands and the dealer scenarios play out? I see Chevrolet, Cadillac, GMC, Toyota and Lexus continuing as brands. Not sure where Pontiac, Scion and Buick would fit in.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Why would Toyota possibly want GM? Doesn't make any sense to me.

    Toyota is already a full-line manufacturer; they don't need any of GM's brands. They also don't need GM's headaches.

    They'll overtake GM in worldwide production in a matter of a few years; the juggernaut rolls on!
  • carlisimocarlisimo Member Posts: 1,280
    I don't think this thread will last very long as a Toyota + GM thread (it'll fill up with naysayers, including myself).

    But as a "Toyota and GM merger - and other crazy ideas" I think it'd be a pretty creative and fun one.

    Anyway, as for Toyota + GM. I can see a couple of important benefits for Toyota.

    One would be international brands; the US and Europe have a lot of nationalistic buyers. Given that the Vibe and Prizm haven't been criticized much for not being fully American, I think Toyota would greatly expand its market.

    The second would be... Bob Lutz. I don't always side with him, but I think his mentality is hugely (if intangibly) important, and Toyota most of all could benefit from someone like him - because they've become very conservative, and because they have a lot of money to play around with.
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAMember Posts: 15,261
    ...why not? Toyota has been building Buicks for years only they're called Avalons. I'd rather see GM survive in this form rather than die out completely. If you go iver to the GM board, all is doom and gloom. I've been eating Prozac like Good-N-Plenties since that forum was initiated.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    ...I've always thought that GM and Honda would be a better fit.

    Honda's fours are far better than any four-cylinder engine ever produced by GM. GM has also never really equalled the Civic, Accord, Odyssey or CR-V.

    GM's specialties are V-8s, bigger vehicles and body-on-frame trucks and SUVs, along with the Corvette. All of which are segments where Honda is either weak or not even competing.

    Honda could keep the Civic, Accord, S2000, CR-V and Odyssey.

    Chevy could have the Impala, Corvette, (enlarged) Equinox, Colorado, Trailblazer, Silverado, Tahoe, Suburban and cargo van. It could also have an all-new rear-wheel drive platform for a 300-like Caprice, an enlarged and revitalized Monte Carlo and revived Camaro.

    Acura would have the TSX, TL, MDX and new RDX. It would stay with front-wheel-drive, or all-wheel-drive.

    Cadillac would have the CTS, STS, SRX, DTS, XLR and Escalade, along with a five-seat coupe and convertible in the $45,000 range.

    Pontiac, Buick, Saturn, Saab and GMC would join Oldsmobile in the great junkyard in the sky.

    Of course, all of this would require the closure of redundant GM factories, shuttering of GM dealers selling the discontinued brands, and a requirement that GM not mess with Honda's unique corporate culture. In other words, it will never happen...or, at least, I hope it never happens, because it would probably end up as a fiasco in real life.
  • carlisimocarlisimo Member Posts: 1,280
    Hey, it looks like The Truth About Cars beat us to it.

    Honda + Lincoln idea.

    I guess there are lots of choices to link Honda to, since it's not really a full-range company.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "...I've always thought that GM and Honda would be a better fit." True, because (a) Honda has certain valuable technical competencies that would be very useful to GM, while GM has the scale and worldwide distribution that would be valuable to Honda; (b) there would be less product overlap than with Toyota; (c) it would be less of an anti-trust challenge than a merger of the world's two largest manufacturers.

    That said, there would be huge cultural issues which, realistically, would not make a GM-honda merger a sound business proposition.

    I envision a BMW-Honda merger as being a better strategic fit than GM-Honda, but the cultural and political issues would probably prevent such a combination from exploiting its strategic promise.

    "...Pontiac, Buick, Saturn, Saab and GMC would join Oldsmobile in the great junkyard in the sky." Although GM doesn't break out profits by divisions, some analysts have said that GMC may be GM's most profitable division, or, if not, the division with the widest margins. For this reason, and because of GMC's strength in trucks (a key reason why such a merger might even be considered by Honda), I think it would be wise to retain GMC in a hypothetical GM-Honda Merger.
  • kevm14kevm14 Member Posts: 423
    Wow, that was a dumb article.

    From the 1984 Mark VII to today’s self-leveling Navigator, Lincoln drivers have been gliding on air, without any of the reliability issues that have dogged other manufacturers' systems.

    Yeah right!

    Imagine an LS-sized car with a V8, rear-wheel-drive and an air suspension with active controls tied into an advanced stability system.

    The Lincoln coupe and convertible versions could reclaim the Mark name from pickup truck hell, and restore the Mark to its rightful place in the automotive hierarchy.

    Sounds like this guy just has a Lincoln and/or Mark fetish and wanted to write an article about it.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    inevitable over the next few years. Most of the large companies are hurting financially.

    I think a Toyota/GM merger is certainly a possibility. There is a creative spark at GM that would combine well with the bulletproof appliance mindset at Toyota.

    A three part GM, BMW and Honda combination would be very strong.

    VW is in very bad shape: perhaps a Hyundai/VW blend would work.

    Mercedes is losing huge money this year but new products may turn it around. The Chrysler side of D/C is carrying whole company right now.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "A three part GM, BMW and Honda combination would be very strong."

    Theoretically, yes, but the cultural and political issues make this an improbable combination. A strategic alliance between these three, where, say, they exchange major components, while keeping their individual identity, might be more feasible.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    If GM and Honda were to merge at one point, I would never set foot into a Honda store again. Period. :mad:
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    with the exception of Toyota every major auto company out there will have to look at new ideas.

    Toyota also could use a 'creative juice' replenishment.

    Your idea about BMW, Honda and GM sharing development costs of major components (engines, transmissions, electronics etc.) could be a solution. It lowers costs for all three while avoiding a true merger.

    The Hyundai/Kia IMO combination needs to look at VW or Ford as partnership possibilities.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    GM is relatively weak in small cars and four cylinder engines, where Honda is strong, and GM is strong in large RWD vehicles, some of which could be useful to Honda.

    It'll be interesting to see what becomes of FIAT, Mitsubishi, Isuzu and, potentially, Volkswagen and Subaru.

    Here's an outside the box one, since Toyota has (wisely, so far) avoided diverting capital and time to mergers: Toyota-Fiat. While it goes without saying what Toyota could do for Fiat, Fiat could inject some creativity and flair into Toyota. Of course, the Scion brand was created for that purpose, and it seems to be doing the job for Toyota.
  • reddogsreddogs Member Posts: 353
    ...just like Chrysler and that little German firm, what was that name....Well now its DumLieChrysler or something like that, and its run by Lee Iococca or his pal. So this one could be called ToywithGeneral.......... :sick:

    BAD IDEA.........Toyota would eat up GM and spit out ALL the parts and close it down quick and that would be the long and short of it............. :D
  • bikeman3bikeman3 Member Posts: 85
    GM with TOYOTA, no way GM has too much debt service, but I did have a nightmare once that my Toyota became a chevy, I actually had to go and look! GOOD GREIF! :sick:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    Marriage made in Hell sounds like.

    Toyota will be able to buy GM at a garage sale pretty soon anyway for spare parts.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    in the 'Economist' magazine about the global car industry.

    The author examines GM, VW, Fiat, P-C, D-C etc. The conclusion: as a group the global car giants other than Toyota are running into trouble.

    One possibility is for companies to become distributors or manufacturers but not both. The author points to the Porsche Boxster as an example of how this could work.

  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAMember Posts: 15,261
    Why don't GM/Ford/VW/Fiat/DCX/BMW/Honda/Renault all combine forces to crush their common enemy which is Toyota?
  • nortsr1nortsr1 Member Posts: 1,060
    Do you really think Toyota would take on the "healthcare costs and pensions" of the UAW. Forget it!!!! You might as well just drop this "What if" discussion!!!!!!!!!!!
  • kevm14kevm14 Member Posts: 423
    Why didn't they include Porsche on the Operating Margin graph? There's a whole topic on this at Edmunds. Pretty sure they're #1, ahead of even Toyota.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    I think they were focusing on auto companies that offer a full range of vehicles.

    You are right, though: Porsche profit margins are the highest in the industry.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    will Toyota's global sales overtake GM?

    "President Katsuaki Watanabe, 63, is making more vehicles abroad to expand Toyota's 2006 global sales target to 8.5 million units, compared with the 9 million units General Motors sold last year and 6.8 million units Ford sold in 2004."

    "The carmaker's market value of almost 15.3 trillion surpasses the combined capitalisation of General Motors, Ford, DaimlerChrysler, Volkswagen and Peugeot Citroen. General Motors, the world's largest carmaker, reported a US$286 million ($435 million) loss in the second quarter ended June, while the profit of Ford, based in Dearborn, Michigan, fell 19 per cent to US$946 million in the same period."
  • maxellmanmaxellman Member Posts: 43
    Toyota can aquire GM with half of the cash it has in the bank, then close down all the plant and make the money back in 3 year on GMAC.
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAMember Posts: 15,261
    ...if Toyota buys GM and closes all the plants, who will be buying cars as hundreds of thousands will become unemployed?
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    big components are pinching the smaller companies.

    Even mid-size companies like Honda and BMW will need additional financial muscle in the near future.

    The next 5-10 may see another wave of consolidation in the auto industry like the 1950-1960 era.

    There will be some (big!) survivors. Many of today's brands will be nameplates only.
  • kevm14kevm14 Member Posts: 423
    I dunno but a bunch of people are going to have to find jobs where they will get paid what their skills are REALLY worth - 2/3rds to 1/2 the pay with far fewer benefits, days off, etc. It'll be rough I tell you!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 54,999
    Getting paid what they are worth...some execs will be lucky to get minimum wage...
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    ...was once nicknamed "Generous Motors," primarily for the high pay enjoyed by virtually everyone who worked for the corporation.

    I have the sinking feeling that lots of GM employees are in for a rude awakening within the next 5-10 years.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    what mergers will really happen.

    I for one never dreamed Mercedes and Chrysler would merge!

    Probably some of the consolidations rumored now like Honda/BMW will never happen.

    The ones that do happen may surprise us all.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 14,014
    I read this same concept a few years ago, and has came up in the car mags recently......My father laughed at me, when I told him about that concept...The only company that he said might have the finacial means to buy out General Motors is the other General, and that's General Electric....I did some research and his statement held weight

    General Motors owns 50 something percent of Toyota already and has for years !!!!!!!!....they own 30% of Nissan, which they baught a few years ago,

    50 % of Isuzu they baught in the mid 90's..... and 100 % of Saab and Saturn....not to mention they also baught out the bankrupt Daewoo.....Toyota as prosperous as it is, isn't a dimple on GM's [non-permissible content removed] for net worth......Toyota being better managed in the modern might have a point......GM's net worth is in the Trillions if you count it's shareholdings also in Eletronic Data System and Delphi Automotive System.....Hell they sold Hughes Electronics for almost 50 billion a few years back, and still own alot of it's stock.....GM is a very diversified company people, so come-on.....Yeah they might merge, but the Big Boys at GM will be in power, not vis versa !!!!!......General Motors is the 2nd biggest company in the world behind General Electric, but GM over the years has been catching them.... Walmart like so many dumb americans think is the biggest company.....GM could buy and sell Walmart......I hope to not see anymore garbage talk about this unrealistic rumors.....rockylee
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 54,999
    Half of Toyota and 30% of Nissan?

    I must have been gone that day
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 14,014
    Yeah you must have been gone that day or week.....The GM 30% Nissan Stock purchase was annouced publicly about 4 years or here in the U.S. It made local media and national news and remember Dan Rather talking about it.....being originally from Michigan and having a family of GM workers, it was a pretty big deal to far as the Toyota acquirement stock purchase, it took place back in the 80's and 90's because GM felt threatened by Toyota and didn't wanna go the way of American Motors Company.....You saw the big whoa's of Chrysler and GM didn't wanna be next.....So the Big Wigs of GM baught Toyota Stock and the 2 have been linked to merge, which there is some truth too it....but it's going to be the GM guys calling the shots vs. Toyota if it ever really happens.....rockylee
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 54,999
    Are there any links to this info? I can't find anything showing GM owning 30% of Nissan or 50% of Toyota.

    I was always under the impression the GM/Toyota ties went little further than NUMMI

    How about Honda? Seeing as you can get a Honda engine in a Saturn (and a stone-age Chinese built engine in a Chevy)
  • jlawrence01jlawrence01 Member Posts: 1,757
    I think he might be in to something the rest of us don't know ....

    **Are there any links to this info? I can't find anything showing GM owning 30% of Nissan or 50% of Toyota. ***

    It is funny. GM could amass those types of interests ... and there is no mention of them in the SEC reports that I have pulled on GM lately ...
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 14,014
    John Devine is #2 at GM

    ok ok I can't find it, for now you can say it's false.....but I swear on my first born, I saw it somewhere that GM owned 30% of Nissan.....I know they acquired Fuji Motors from Nissan....(perhaps I'm confusing it with Nissan????) it's been a very long time ago.....I do however know they own part of Saaburu, and Suzuki, Isuzu along with so many others.....As far as Toyota 50% thing goes, that came from My Great Aunt who owned one of the Largest Forklift companies (Toyota) west of the Mississippi...... She and my Uncle sold it a couple of years ago....She got to go to Toyota City numerous times for buisness meetings....I assume it's true, because my grandmother (union rep) heard the same rumor that GM has slowly over the years been acquiring Toyota stock... also look of all the chatter on the net about it.....I personally couldn't phathom GM being baught by Toyota......Well that's about as much proof as I can give.....If my Grandmother or Aunt can come up with some more info, I will post it
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 14,014
    I hate not being able to back up a fact, when I know it's true.....I know you guys and gals will paint me a liar now, and I guess if you choose to you can....A liar is not me, because what benefit would a lie about GM, a company I don't work for do for me ?????........I will leave with this....Take Honeywell for example....big company right....who owns it ????
    GE.....same goes for Johnson Controls Inc (my former employer) GE owns it too ......GE, doesn't go around boasting it owns certain things, even though they do......GM spun off Delphi WHY ????..... they want to seperate the spin off company from them, to acquire new buisness....common buisness since.....Delphi now supply's Toyota,Honda,Mercedes Benz, BMW etc etc with car parts, which it wouldn't of done before.....It makes GM Billions more revenue.....and for that yuppie that said Toyota could buy General Motors in a previous forum.....I just got to say 40-60 Billion that Toyota has in the bank, ain't going to cut it.....lemme see Bill Gates and Warren Buffett togeather might beable to buy 10% if they dropped every nickel they had..... :P
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 14,014
    or 50% of Toyota drop us a website or proof.....Thanks -->rockylee
  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    .....Toyota needs to make sure GM has nothing to do with quality control.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Not sure where you got that info but GM does not own 50% of Toyota, NOR does it own 30% of Nissan. GM owns SAAB and has a minority stake in Fuji (aka Subaru). I am sure there are others. If GM owned 50% of Toyota wouldn't you think there would be some platform sharing? Wouldn't there be a GM hybrid similar to a Prius? Please post links to your data.
  • nwngnwng Member Posts: 663
    rocklee: what's that noise?

    it's the school bell
  • dilldill Member Posts: 31
    They both offer a lot to each other and they are successful with items in different markets.
    GM is successful with making good family cars that are fuel efficient. Buick LeSabre comes to mind as well as the Park Ave, Also the Cadillac DeVille which is the best selling full sized luxury car for many, many, many years now. GM also sells more Full sized trucks than does Ford when you combine the GMC and Chevy nameplates. GM is the originator of Onstar and XM, and Cadillacs night vision, and 4 wheel steering on some high end trucks, Some of these technologies are because of Delphi also but without GM there would be none of these technologies. Much of these innovations however are thanks to GM long ago acquisition of Hughes Electronics. Hughes is also doing many projects with the military and they have been able to take the military applications and turn them into being commercial viable options for vehicles. That might not sound like much but when you consider you have to have an annual subscription in order to use this technology it is money on a yearly basis in the bank of GM years after the car was originally sold at the dealership.

    GM is a leader in hydrogen technology development. GM along with BMW has been developing technology jointly, GM has been working on a hydrogen car that is absolutely 100% pollution free. As impressive as the Prius and other hybrid cars are, they still pollute. (a) they run partially on gas (b) they run partially on batteries that harm the environment when its time for disposal of the batteries. Also Gm bring to the table mammoth marketshare gains for Toyota. Toytas marketshare would more than double instantly in the US. Also GM is the largest seller of cars for a foreign brand in China. Larger even than VW which has had serious marketshare gains in China over the last 5 years or so.GM also brings to the table the technological prowess of Hughes Electronics.

    GM also brings alot to the table with their engineering pool of people. Not only from the pool of GM North American brands but also Holden, Vauxhall, Subaru, Saab, Isuzu, Daewoo, and Suzuki. I'm sure I'm missing other companies but I'm doing this quickly off the top of my head.GM also brings a lot of cash to the table with its GMAC financial services arm.

    Toyota isn't to be discounted either with its benefits they bring to the table. their engineering, image, and their relevance to car design. Toyta is really important for Hybrid cars and truck development. Unfotunately for GM when Toyota makes a car it gets nothing but praise, when GM makes a decent respectable car people can't be critical of it fast enough. Yes, image is important in this case but so is relevance to the times. Toyota also brings serious cash and a clear cut vision that until the last few years no GM brand really had. Cadillac and Chevy are the only brands that have a clear image all the other GM North America brands images are pretty muddy. In the last few years the GM division that has seen their image become tarnished under the guidance of Lutz and Wagoner is Buick. They have put out to pasture a few names like LeSabre and Park Ave. That people still respect. There is no reason why Buick couldn't keep those names and come out with more youth styling with those names still in use.

    Anyway, I hope all of the above shows people that it would be a decent marriage. Toyota specializes in medium to small car development, GM is the same for large cars and trucks. They would both benefit from the decades of vehicle development and also benefit from the diversifying GM has been involved with especially in the last 20-30 years.
  • kevm14kevm14 Member Posts: 423
    C&D had a nice several page spread on who owns who in one of their past issues. I can't, for the life of me, find the article online. But it went into detail on who owns who, for which they drew a nice 2 page graphic showing percentages and whatnot. Maybe someone knows what I am talking about...

    FWIW, I don't remember seeing anything on Toyota/GM beyond NUMMI.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    That article was in Automobile, not Car & Driver, if I recall correctly.

    The only connection GM and Toyota have is the NUMMI partnership. GM has no connection to Nissan, which was rescued by Renault. GM does own a portion of Fuji (Subaru).
  • kevm14kevm14 Member Posts: 423
    GAH! You're right! I killed myself for 25 minutes searching C&D's website. I don't subscribe to Automobile which is why I forgot (borrowed someone else's issue).
  • kevm14kevm14 Member Posts: 423

    Toyota has agreed to buy an 8.7 percent stake in Japanese automaker Fuji Heavy Industries from General Motors Corp., officials from both companies said Wednesday, in a deal that will make Toyota the top shareholder in the company that makes Subaru cars.

    GM and Fuji agreed to dissolve their alliance and capital relationship, said Toyota executive vice president Mitsuo Kinoshita and Fuji Heavy President Kyoji Takenaka at a joint news conference. GM will sell its remaining 11.4 percent stake in Fuji in the market.
  • nwngnwng Member Posts: 663
    while they still last
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    That is awesome news! At least now Subie won't go down the tubes with Saab and Isuzu, which GM so wonderfully screwed up... Toyota taking stock in Fuji may not be a bad proposition seeing that they could learn a few things about AWD from it. Heck, maybe a Boxer powered Celica All-trac?
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 14,014
    I think the first reports were 30% and that's where I got my info from.....back in 2000....Sorry for misleading, I was confused since it's been so long ago since the deal took far as GM owning 50% of Toyota stock, that was based off of what my great aunt who owned a toyota forklift company said.....perhaps she was full of it ?.....but why would 60 yr. women make such a claim, if there wasn't atleast some truth to it....My great aunt has isn't one to lie....perhaps she got some faulty info herself ?????....oh well that means GM owns part of Saburu now ?
    They also own almost 50% of Isuzu (Durmax Diesel Technology) and stake in Suzuki .....My goodness did anyone see that new Isuzu Mid Size Truck ????....a carbon copy of the Colorado/Canyon but I heard a bit more nicer. GM needs to use Saburu's AWD technolgy in more cars.....I wonder if that's where the STS AWD came from ? anyone know the answers ???? Thanx->rockylee :)
  • dilldill Member Posts: 31
    There is no guarantee that toyota buying GM's stock is going to produce anything bigtime positive for future models. According to Forbes, Toyota has no plans for concrete plans for sharing any componants at this time. They bought GM's stock to open the door into possibly sharing componants and technology. In other words there is no evidence to support that toyota will gain anything of merit in this acquistion but you never know. It might be good for both companies but you'll have to wait and see. GM said that there wasn't enough collaboration between GM and Subaru to justify GM continued involvement in Subuaru's operations.
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