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General Motors discussions
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As far as '06 styling saving GM the Grand Prix is a tested commodity and sells very well. The question before us is whether the revised look of the GXP for '06 will bring in more buyers. I believe the combo of V8 and a freshened up exterior will bump sales up a notch.
the sales data shows that there was a minimal increase in GP volume in November which is actually good since the GP is now another year older.
Gone, not sure which suit you are talking about?
Whoever signs off on GM styling. It's a committee I am sure. These cars don't style themselves, and aren't approved by the same braille-school design people that draw them.
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
My Seville has shown an average MPG of 32 or so at times. On a round trip to California I averaged about 29 MPG on the fuel that I actually put into the tank, at the end of the trip the computer was saying about 32 as I recall. In any case, an Acura should be able to do much better than a V8 Cadillac.
Why? A G6 GTP is only rated for 18/26 mpg hwy with an auto & 18/29 with a stick.
Many factors effect fuel economy and I firmly believe GMs fuel economy advantage is not due to pushrod engines. It's gearing, it seems to me, GM vehicles that get impressive fuel mileage have tall gear ratios.
Look at an impala. The 3.5 achieves impressive highway economy by using a taller final drive ratio than the 3.9 or 5.3.
I will point out that the average MPG that the cars computer shows is based on about the last 30 gallons of fuel used even if you have not reset the computer. At least this is what my Seville seems to do. I think that the average is probably some weighted average of short and longer term fuel consumption. Once you "reset" the average MPG, then the computer has to start over.
I agree with you statement. But a G6 with a v6 should get better economy as well and it don't. A Honda Odyssey with about the same amount of power is rated for 20/28mpg. You'd think a G6 GTP could at least get a better city rating than than a two ton minivan.
My point is many variables exist that effect fuel economy. Maybe the EPA duty cycle is meaningless, I don't know. Obviously real world mpg is more meaningful.
FWIW, my grandparents were once able to eke 29 mpg out of their '85 LeSabre. I think its 307 was EPA-rated around 17/24. Consumer Reports was able to get something like 32 out of an '84 Caprice with a 305, on their highway cycle, and it would've been rated around the same.
I don't know what the G-6'es excuse is, though. FWIW, the 3.9 in general seems to be a bit of a guzzler.
Not catch22. You can have both power (not brute) and balance. Is 0-60 in 6.5 seconds (per Edmunds) adequate? This is what TL does and also does slalom at 67.5 mph. GXP does 0-60 in about same time, but does 56.0 in slalom.
What is brute power? Is this what funny cars or dragsters exhibit on drag strip?
Edmunds rates GXP handling as "poor" and TL handling as "excellent". Other testers (magazines) have mostly come to same conclusion on these cars.
Looking forward to the discussion.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
Big trucks-look great inside and out.
Solstice?-what a wow.
Impala-plain but nice looking car for the masses and the volume. It is almost outselling the Accord already. Selling much higher numbers than last year with less fleet.
Lucerne-great looking from all reports I have read.
DTS-good looking but not much different than the old one so no surprises there. Already outselling the Deville with minimal stock.
Cobalt-yawner of a car but again does not offend anyone. (actually out as '05?)
Anything else I am missing?
Everything GM has to offer except a few could put me to sleep.
Everything GM has to offer except a few could put me to sleep.
Almost outselling the Accord. Lots of folks just do not get it that "wow" style sells but only in small quantities. Too much style turns off much of the buying public for many reasons.
Many do not want to stand out in a crowd (low key conservative consumers)
Many are turned off by the styling (300M turns off many)
Many do not want to be seen as buying the latest "thing"
Many could care less about the style.
Once the "wow" style is out a year or so the "wow" buyers buy the next big thing.
By the time the above folks are removed from the buying pool the possible volume gets into the niche or lower volume market. If you want high volume the vehicle has to be non controversial. That is what Chev/Toyota/Honda are after. Now you still need to have decent styling. You cannot turn off the buyers with an ugly vehicle.
Impala/Accord/Camry are nice looking plain Jane cars that will sell in huge volumes.
The wow styling of something like the 300 becomes bowwow after a couple of years. The marketing in this area is to a group that tends to buy whereever they can get credit. A lot of the buyers are Chrysler buyers because of a major dealership moving a lot of cars all alone in an area.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Big trucks-look great inside and out.
Solstice?-what a wow.
Impala-plain but nice looking car for the masses and the volume. It is almost outselling the Accord already. Selling much higher numbers than last year with less fleet.
Lucerne-great looking from all reports I have read.
DTS-good looking but not much different than the old one so no surprises there. Already outselling the Deville with minimal stock.
Cobalt-yawner of a car but again does not offend anyone. (actually out as '05?)
Anything else I am missing?
~~ end quote ~~
New products - good question!
Big trucks are big trucks. The Dodge ones have had the most style, as in something truly different to the eye.
Solstice -- have yet to see one, so who cares. Can not sell what can not be seen.
Impala looks better than I thought the re-freshen would look. A solid looking - supersized Accord, not bad. Nothing earth shaking. At under $20K not a bad deal, and above that l'd look at smaller Accord, with the fantastic resale value.
Lucerne is another car I have yet to see. Will Safeway ever get it's name back? Price is too high unless moving the car up to the Cadillac line, as in replacement for DTS.
DTS is looking better these days. Great car to buy used, but not new due to huge price deterioration in first couple of years. May be a better value than a CTS, which is a more fun car to drive, but overpriced more than the DTS. FWD is welcomed by those living on the frozen tundra.
Cobalt just got ate by Civic. The Civic Si will be on the wish list of all the younger set, though insurance will be sky high. Cobalt remains a solid little plain car under $15K though they will take any amount of money you wish to invest in one. Cobalt SS = 205HP Civic Si 197HP without a blower. Add blower we are talking 295HP. Game over.
The HHR remains what it is. If ya don't like the PT and want perhaps some better gas mileage, by the imitator, which seems like a good little van.
Loren :shades:
The wow styling of something like the 300 becomes bowwow after a couple of years. The marketing in this area is to a group that tends to buy whereever they can get credit. A lot of the buyers are Chrysler buyers because of a major dealership moving a lot of cars all alone in an area.
~~ end quote ~~
Disagree with all of above.
:shades: Loren
Are you sure about that? I have no way to verify, but my wife and several of our friends have company cars. All that I have talked to mentioned they will be getting 06 Impalas. These are from fortune 500 companies with large fleets. My wife had the option of a Grand Prix, Impala, and Ford 500. While most her co-workers have ordered Impala's last month, she ordered a 500 due to it having quite a bit more rear leg room.
I think the Impala is a huge overall improvement and should sell well. As far as retail sales compared to an Accord/Camry, I imagine it will remain far behind.
Loren
There are some car guys and gals still out there - really there are! I bet if Ford put a real sharp looking Ford Fairlane 500 out there with an inline 6 and a small v8, they would find some buyers. Oh yeah, drop the dull looks of current gen. cars.
Loren
However on country roads where you won't see a house for miles, I'd sometimes kick it down and go a buck 35 for a few momments. I however was never brave enough to do 147 mph, because the good taken care of stretches of highway where I'd attempt such a feat is more acceptable to hwy patrol. :mad: The car was rock solid, and I can only wish the Big 3 would copy the Acura TL and Lexus IS
Rocky
P.S. It would maybe save the Big 3
Sorry, I should have said rental fleet. The commercial fleet business is very profitable. It's the rental dumping ground fleet that churns cars in and out that kills the residuals. Commercial fleet is huge business.
I think one reason the Impala is selling so well now is that its chief competition, the Taurus, is being rapidly phased out and cars like the 500 and Fusion, which slot in just above and below it, really haven't caught on yet. Also, the Dodge Charger and Chrysler 300 aren't getting dumped in rental fleets to quite the degree that the Intrepid and Concorde did. Chrysler's biggest fleet fave these days is the Sebring/Stratus, but those are small enough that they're not really going to fight with the Impala. They go more against the Malibu/Fusion.
Still, I'm sure the red tag pricing and improved styling and engines have helped out with the Impala's sales. If I were in the market for a new car, I'd at least consider an Impala. I like it now a lot more than I did the '00-05.
P.S. Closest Acura dealership is 307 miles from Midland..but I can foresee a dealership closer for Acuras.
Thanks, that clears things up. While businss fleet maybe good for GM, I still think it hurts resale due to the fact they don't keep them long.
As for the November sales numbers, I know my wifes company ordered cars for everyone that was due for one in Nov. I suspect it was probably 50% of their fleet. With the Taurus gone, that will certainly help Impala sales.
If Chevy can bring that out son they would have a hit. Maybe capacity has been reached for the one plant producing Solstice's and Sky's, but aren't they closing other plants.
When did the red tag start? I thought it was well into November? Anyway that helps to make the point. After the new design came out the sales skyrocketed. What is interesting is that Impala has a 41 day supply in inventory and Accord has 46 (these are retail stats). Normally GM has like 60+ day supply on their cars and Honda is much lower. Accord's stock is 43,200 and Impala is 37,400. When does the new Accord come out? Looks like the Impala is doing well.
Another contributing factor to the Impala's success is that they were just trickling in for a little while at first, so maybe there was just some pent-up demand, and now they have the supply to meet that demand?
I'm impressed though, that while the Impala is doing well, so is the LaCrosse and Grand Prix. So it doesn't look like the Impala is merely stealing sales from its siblings...it's standing on its own merits.
As for the Accord, I think the restyled '06 model with the longer rump and different taillights has been out a few months now. I think the first time I saw one was after the Fall Carlisle swap meet, which would put it around early October.
I'm still shocked at how well the Camry's doing...it seems to be everybody's darling. Is Toyota really undercutting Honda in price or something on these cars?
Oh yeah, drop the dull looks of current gen. cars.
Styling could help GM with more sales, but alas not much they offer has panache. Exceptions of course are Corvette, Solstice (except grille), new Sky, Cadillac, G6 kind of.
Think that their advertising folks also know that styling is a weak point and don't give good camera shots of cars. Yesterday saw TV commercial for Lucerne and they talked about a dummy that they propose loaning to other car companies. They showed the interior of car and it looks like it is for an 80-year old grandmother. But, they only show fleeting shots of the exterior. If you relied on TV Buick spots, still would not know what the car looks like in profile, 3/4, rear, etc.
From what I have seen in magazines and on internet, looks like rear of Lucerne mismatched to front. Rear design looks like VW Passat. Surprised that in commercials they don't bring back references to old-time GM guy named Harvey Earl, like they did in last couple of years, to talk about the fake portholes. Can anybody imagine these portholes appealing to people who cross shop Acura TL/Lexus ES300 or Avalon/Maxima? Does GM and Buick think that these shoppers will consider Lucerne? Don't think so. Seems that people that will buy Buicks are former Buick owners or those moving up from Chevy and Pontiac.
Not Ford board, but Ford could of had a huge hit if its dull looking production 500 were based on car show "500" model that was painted all black and made rounds about 5-6 years ago. That's the style that was a knockout and it got a lot of attention at car shows, media/magazines. Remember seeing it at car show and it had huge crowds around it.
And if the BK judge drives an Acura.......
A few months ago, we shopped the Accord, Camry, and new Sonata. Having owned Honda's before, I leaned toward the Accord, but after driving, and later renting, a Camry LE, I can understand why the Camry's so successful. It simply does everything well, and the inclusive of the driver's power seat is not lost on those comparison shopping. Unless you buy the highline EX, you get a manual driver's seat in the Accord. On the surface, this seems minor, but for the Camry's target demographic, Toyota hits the mark.
The Impala is a good product, and I wish it the best in the marketplace. Personally, I think Toyota may lose some sales with their new 2007 Camry, as they are targeting a younger demographic, similar to what Honda did with the 2006 Civic. It works for the Civic, but perhaps not with the Camry.
The results before adjustment for the G6 are 40.4 MPG for the 3.5 automatic. The 3.9 manual gets 37.86 MPG. The Acura TL manual is rated 37.0 MPG. The current V8 STS is rated 32.8, probably the 2.73:1 axle ratio. All of these are the so called highway results.
So, it will take more than just styling to sell cars. One thing GM does have is fairly good reliability, at least according to J D Power. People's perception of quality is what has to be overcome though.