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  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    It's wonderful you were able to get 35 out of your TL. The way you obtained it does give you the best possible mileage. Of course if you look at EPA measurements the TL gets 20/29 and the GXP gets 17/28. Not a huge difference.

    As far as '06 styling saving GM the Grand Prix is a tested commodity and sells very well. The question before us is whether the revised look of the GXP for '06 will bring in more buyers. I believe the combo of V8 and a freshened up exterior will bump sales up a notch.

    the sales data shows that there was a minimal increase in GP volume in November which is actually good since the GP is now another year older.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,419
    Speaking of styling, did the poorly thought out horizontal grille bar theme that the overpaid underworked suits wanted to put on every Chevy finally die? You know, the one that gives cars a fishfaced overbite? It might work on trucks, but... Nice going...
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Speaking of styling, did the poorly thought out horizontal grille bar theme that the overpaid underworked suits wanted to put on every Chevy finally die?

    Gone, not sure which suit you are talking about?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,419
    Well, overpaid and underworked could describe 99% of them I am sure, given GM's styling track record.

    Whoever signs off on GM styling. It's a committee I am sure. These cars don't style themselves, and aren't approved by the same braille-school design people that draw them.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Yeah, they just need to give the GP a new modern interior, with good use of premium material. I like I said before, my mpg in my TL was based on the cars computer. If the TL's computer was wrong, then I guess I had a faulty computer. I did however have a combined avg mpg city/hwy of 26.8 mainly because I would runner up to 135 mph on country roads where traffic is non-existant, except for the occassional pheasant :P

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Yeah, I think they could of done more with styling. BMW would greatly improve GM. GM style the cars, and BMW set up the engineering part !!!! :P

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Your not a kidding. The U.S. auto-industry is going to be a must watch reality show. Whatever happens, will directly affect american manufactoring.

    Rocky
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    People want power for straightline acceleration. Then they want the car to be balanced and without the brute power. Sounds like catch22 to me.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    GM calls it Catch-22. Honda calls it VTEC.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The driver information center (or cars computer) can only compute the MPG based on the fuel that goes through the fuel injection system. That amount should be metered fairly accurately. However, a significant amount of fuel bypasses the fuel injection system by way of the evaporative emissions system. This is about 1 gallon out of 20 or so. So your cars computer should read a bit high for average MPG.

    My Seville has shown an average MPG of 32 or so at times. On a round trip to California I averaged about 29 MPG on the fuel that I actually put into the tank, at the end of the trip the computer was saying about 32 as I recall. In any case, an Acura should be able to do much better than a V8 Cadillac.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    My Seville has shown an average MPG of 32 or so at times. On a round trip to California I averaged about 29 MPG on the fuel that I actually put into the tank, at the end of the trip the computer was saying about 32 as I recall. In any case, an Acura should be able to do much better than a V8 Cadillac.

    Why? A G6 GTP is only rated for 18/26 mpg hwy with an auto & 18/29 with a stick.

    Many factors effect fuel economy and I firmly believe GMs fuel economy advantage is not due to pushrod engines. It's gearing, it seems to me, GM vehicles that get impressive fuel mileage have tall gear ratios.

    Look at an impala. The 3.5 achieves impressive highway economy by using a taller final drive ratio than the 3.9 or 5.3.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I say that the Acura should get better mileage than my Seville because it has a smaller engine, 3.2 liters instead of 4.6 liters and weighs about 500 pounds less. Many posters expressed doubts about the mileage claims that rockylee made. I don't think that they were out of range, although I do think that they were for a specific trip and may not be typical.

    I will point out that the average MPG that the cars computer shows is based on about the last 30 gallons of fuel used even if you have not reset the computer. At least this is what my Seville seems to do. I think that the average is probably some weighted average of short and longer term fuel consumption. Once you "reset" the average MPG, then the computer has to start over.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    SLS,

    I agree with you statement. But a G6 with a v6 should get better economy as well and it don't. A Honda Odyssey with about the same amount of power is rated for 20/28mpg. You'd think a G6 GTP could at least get a better city rating than than a two ton minivan.

    My point is many variables exist that effect fuel economy. Maybe the EPA duty cycle is meaningless, I don't know. Obviously real world mpg is more meaningful.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    you can get better mpg out of big, loafy engines because they're usually geared taller. Smaller engines are usually stuck with shorter gearing, even with overdrive gears factored in, so that even though they're not working that hard at higher speeds, they're still revving needlessly.

    FWIW, my grandparents were once able to eke 29 mpg out of their '85 LeSabre. I think its 307 was EPA-rated around 17/24. Consumer Reports was able to get something like 32 out of an '84 Caprice with a 305, on their highway cycle, and it would've been rated around the same.

    I don't know what the G-6'es excuse is, though. FWIW, the 3.9 in general seems to be a bit of a guzzler.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    People want power for straightline acceleration. Then they want the car to be balanced and without the brute power. Sounds like catch22 to me.

    Not catch22. You can have both power (not brute) and balance. Is 0-60 in 6.5 seconds (per Edmunds) adequate? This is what TL does and also does slalom at 67.5 mph. GXP does 0-60 in about same time, but does 56.0 in slalom.

    What is brute power? Is this what funny cars or dragsters exhibit on drag strip?

    Edmunds rates GXP handling as "poor" and TL handling as "excellent". Other testers (magazines) have mostly come to same conclusion on these cars.
  • inajoonginajoong Member Posts: 46
    all the 06 styling is out and i don't see GM going anywhere but south...
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,287
    Glad to see some of the familiar names here. After the hosts shut down the other GM survival discussion and tried to run us off into the blogs it was sort of like trying to track down your favorite floating crap game again! Hopefully I've deciphered their new terminolgy and managed to subscribe ...er, "track" (ack!) this discussion.

    Looking forward to the discussion.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    What are the new products for '06?

    Big trucks-look great inside and out.

    Solstice?-what a wow.

    Impala-plain but nice looking car for the masses and the volume. It is almost outselling the Accord already. Selling much higher numbers than last year with less fleet.

    Lucerne-great looking from all reports I have read.

    DTS-good looking but not much different than the old one so no surprises there. Already outselling the Deville with minimal stock.

    Cobalt-yawner of a car but again does not offend anyone. (actually out as '05?)

    Anything else I am missing?
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    on the exterior styling of some models - Pontiac GP, Buick LaCrosse for example. Where they still leave me so cold is in the interior design, still drab, black and plasticy feeling. So are the Japanese cars of that class, but they feel of better quality, and they look more efficient at least, if not more upscale. Also, GM keeps those old John Deere pushrods around in most engines, they still click when you start them up and sound like a cornbinder, while almost everyone else is into quiet running OHC or DOHC engines. There is lots of low tech in those GM cars. They're about on par with Hyundai & Kia, IMO. This doesn't make them bad cars - just unappealing to me.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Impala is outselling the Accord? Maybe some Accord buyers have mistaken the Impala for the Accord. ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzz.

    Everything GM has to offer except a few could put me to sleep.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...to be brutally honset, most of ANYBODY'S cars can put me to sleep! A Camry or Accord? Both are sure cures for insomnia!
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Impala is outselling the Accord? Maybe some Accord buyers have mistaken the Impala for the Accord. ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzz.
    Everything GM has to offer except a few could put me to sleep.


    Almost outselling the Accord. Lots of folks just do not get it that "wow" style sells but only in small quantities. Too much style turns off much of the buying public for many reasons.

    Many do not want to stand out in a crowd (low key conservative consumers)
    Many are turned off by the styling (300M turns off many)
    Many do not want to be seen as buying the latest "thing"
    Many could care less about the style.
    Once the "wow" style is out a year or so the "wow" buyers buy the next big thing.

    By the time the above folks are removed from the buying pool the possible volume gets into the niche or lower volume market. If you want high volume the vehicle has to be non controversial. That is what Chev/Toyota/Honda are after. Now you still need to have decent styling. You cannot turn off the buyers with an ugly vehicle.

    Impala/Accord/Camry are nice looking plain Jane cars that will sell in huge volumes.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    The 300C styling shows a little in the Avalon with that low roof design.

    The wow styling of something like the 300 becomes bowwow after a couple of years. The marketing in this area is to a group that tends to buy whereever they can get credit. A lot of the buyers are Chrysler buyers because of a major dealership moving a lot of cars all alone in an area.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    What are the new products for '06?

    Big trucks-look great inside and out.

    Solstice?-what a wow.

    Impala-plain but nice looking car for the masses and the volume. It is almost outselling the Accord already. Selling much higher numbers than last year with less fleet.

    Lucerne-great looking from all reports I have read.

    DTS-good looking but not much different than the old one so no surprises there. Already outselling the Deville with minimal stock.

    Cobalt-yawner of a car but again does not offend anyone. (actually out as '05?)

    Anything else I am missing?

    ~~ end quote ~~
    New products - good question!

    Big trucks are big trucks. The Dodge ones have had the most style, as in something truly different to the eye.

    Solstice -- have yet to see one, so who cares. Can not sell what can not be seen.

    Impala looks better than I thought the re-freshen would look. A solid looking - supersized Accord, not bad. Nothing earth shaking. At under $20K not a bad deal, and above that l'd look at smaller Accord, with the fantastic resale value.

    Lucerne is another car I have yet to see. Will Safeway ever get it's name back? Price is too high unless moving the car up to the Cadillac line, as in replacement for DTS.

    DTS is looking better these days. Great car to buy used, but not new due to huge price deterioration in first couple of years. May be a better value than a CTS, which is a more fun car to drive, but overpriced more than the DTS. FWD is welcomed by those living on the frozen tundra.

    Cobalt just got ate by Civic. The Civic Si will be on the wish list of all the younger set, though insurance will be sky high. Cobalt remains a solid little plain car under $15K though they will take any amount of money you wish to invest in one. Cobalt SS = 205HP Civic Si 197HP without a blower. Add blower we are talking 295HP. Game over.

    The HHR remains what it is. If ya don't like the PT and want perhaps some better gas mileage, by the imitator, which seems like a good little van.

    Loren :shades:
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    The 300C styling shows a little in the Avalon with that low roof design.

    The wow styling of something like the 300 becomes bowwow after a couple of years. The marketing in this area is to a group that tends to buy whereever they can get credit. A lot of the buyers are Chrysler buyers because of a major dealership moving a lot of cars all alone in an area.


    ~~ end quote ~~
    Disagree with all of above.
    :shades: Loren
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Selling much higher numbers than last year with less fleet.

    Are you sure about that? I have no way to verify, but my wife and several of our friends have company cars. All that I have talked to mentioned they will be getting 06 Impalas. These are from fortune 500 companies with large fleets. My wife had the option of a Grand Prix, Impala, and Ford 500. While most her co-workers have ordered Impala's last month, she ordered a 500 due to it having quite a bit more rear leg room.

    I think the Impala is a huge overall improvement and should sell well. As far as retail sales compared to an Accord/Camry, I imagine it will remain far behind.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    The 300M was very popular, and has good following even after they were discontinued. The 300 is still one hot car. Not to say the Impala, or Crown Vics are not good cars. They all have their good points. If people prefer boring styles, perhaps the big two American makes have some hope. I do like the Mustang and Fusion in their own way. The Impala is not a bad makeover, and if less expensive by say $2K to $3K over an Accord, could possibly make dollar sense to buy.

    Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Weren't those old Fairlane 500's cool little cars? The new Ford 500 has no personality. Well it does have the Mercedes tail lights. Some selling point ;) A good solid car for people that prefer basic transportation, or feel like they need a taller ride, like an SUV. It gets the job done. Kinda what most people care about, I guess. Actually a car that hits its target in some ways. Some people don't care for the engine choices, but what the heck.

    There are some car guys and gals still out there - really there are! I bet if Ford put a real sharp looking Ford Fairlane 500 out there with an inline 6 and a small v8, they would find some buyers. Oh yeah, drop the dull looks of current gen. cars.

    Loren
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I live in the West Texas Panhandle, most of which is flat as the autobahn with open range. On flat land my Acura TL in 6th gear would flip flop between 35-36 mpg depending on how windy it was out. My 90 mile jog from work to home which includes some plateau's(canyon country) I would avg. 33 mpg. on the total trip. "My 35 mpg claim was yes a 500 mile specific trip from Dallas to Amarillo". However on flat land the TL's hwy mpg at first I didn't believe it until I asked the dealer to look it over. He said their was nothing wrong with my computer, and it's possible to achieve these kinda of numbers when driving on flat stretches of roadway. My total lead footed mpg avg. was 26.8 ;)

    However on country roads where you won't see a house for miles, I'd sometimes kick it down and go a buck 35 for a few momments. I however was never brave enough to do 147 mph, because the good taken care of stretches of highway where I'd attempt such a feat is more acceptable to hwy patrol. :mad: The car was rock solid, and I can only wish the Big 3 would copy the Acura TL and Lexus IS :blush:

    Rocky

    P.S. It would maybe save the Big 3
  • drkchilytslydrdrkchilytslydr Member Posts: 1
    I'm having an issue with the complaints about exterior styling. Yes a car should look nice but you also have to consider the functionality of the body design. The less of a drag ratio the better overall performance your going to get out of the vehicle and not to mention better gas mileage. If something looks pretty it might not be good for your wallet to buy it in the long run.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Are you sure about that? I have no way to verify, but my wife and several of our friends have company cars. All that I have talked to mentioned they will be getting 06 Impalas. These are from fortune 500 companies with large fleets. My wife had the option of a Grand Prix, Impala, and Ford 500. While most her co-workers have ordered Impala's last month, she ordered a 500 due to it having quite a bit more rear leg room.

    Sorry, I should have said rental fleet. The commercial fleet business is very profitable. It's the rental dumping ground fleet that churns cars in and out that kills the residuals. Commercial fleet is huge business.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    the Impala sold 23,057 units, compared to the Accord's 23,548. In 2005 YTD though, the stats are Impala: 224,295 and Accord: 342,923.

    I think one reason the Impala is selling so well now is that its chief competition, the Taurus, is being rapidly phased out and cars like the 500 and Fusion, which slot in just above and below it, really haven't caught on yet. Also, the Dodge Charger and Chrysler 300 aren't getting dumped in rental fleets to quite the degree that the Intrepid and Concorde did. Chrysler's biggest fleet fave these days is the Sebring/Stratus, but those are small enough that they're not really going to fight with the Impala. They go more against the Malibu/Fusion.

    Still, I'm sure the red tag pricing and improved styling and engines have helped out with the Impala's sales. If I were in the market for a new car, I'd at least consider an Impala. I like it now a lot more than I did the '00-05.
  • roosaroosa Member Posts: 9
    Quite by accident read your post and was glad I did. We just completed a round trip from Midland to El Paso, approx. 750 miles and averaged 34mpg, car has under 4,000miles on it. Set it on cruise at 70 and then 75 as part of the stretch allows for 75mpg, west of Pecos. This year we rented 2006 Taurus and 2006 Grand Prix at airport for trips from Midland to Houston and Midland to Dallas. I can tell you the Big 3 have a long way to go. J. Roosa
    P.S. Closest Acura dealership is 307 miles from Midland..but I can foresee a dealership closer for Acuras.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Sorry, I should have said rental fleet. The commercial fleet business is very profitable. It's the rental dumping ground fleet that churns cars in and out that kills the residuals. Commercial fleet is huge business.

    Thanks, that clears things up. While businss fleet maybe good for GM, I still think it hurts resale due to the fact they don't keep them long.

    As for the November sales numbers, I know my wifes company ordered cars for everyone that was due for one in Nov. I suspect it was probably 50% of their fleet. With the Taurus gone, that will certainly help Impala sales.
  • gussguss Member Posts: 1,167
    happened to the Chevy Nomad concept. A little 2 door coupe based on the Solstice/Sky platform. I was in Wal-mart the other day and you could buy the Hot Wheels version.

    If Chevy can bring that out son they would have a hit. Maybe capacity has been reached for the one plant producing Solstice's and Sky's, but aren't they closing other plants.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Neat idea but the money GM needs is not in cute low volume cars. While vehicles like the Solstice improve brand awareness they jsut do not make much money in the end. 2 dr Nomad (station wagon, not coupe)would be a flash in the pan low volume seller. would sell in low volume for a year or two and then die off.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    the Impala sold 23,057 units, compared to the Accord's 23,548. In 2005 YTD though, the stats are Impala: 224,295 and Accord: 342,923.

    When did the red tag start? I thought it was well into November? Anyway that helps to make the point. After the new design came out the sales skyrocketed. What is interesting is that Impala has a 41 day supply in inventory and Accord has 46 (these are retail stats). Normally GM has like 60+ day supply on their cars and Honda is much lower. Accord's stock is 43,200 and Impala is 37,400. When does the new Accord come out? Looks like the Impala is doing well.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    when the red tag stuff started, but the 2006 Impala was probably born with some kind of rebate in its hand.

    Another contributing factor to the Impala's success is that they were just trickling in for a little while at first, so maybe there was just some pent-up demand, and now they have the supply to meet that demand?

    I'm impressed though, that while the Impala is doing well, so is the LaCrosse and Grand Prix. So it doesn't look like the Impala is merely stealing sales from its siblings...it's standing on its own merits.

    As for the Accord, I think the restyled '06 model with the longer rump and different taillights has been out a few months now. I think the first time I saw one was after the Fall Carlisle swap meet, which would put it around early October.

    I'm still shocked at how well the Camry's doing...it seems to be everybody's darling. Is Toyota really undercutting Honda in price or something on these cars?
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Looks like they had the same rebate as today. $1000.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Weren't those old Fairlane 500's cool little cars? The new Ford 500 has no personality.
    Oh yeah, drop the dull looks of current gen. cars.


    Styling could help GM with more sales, but alas not much they offer has panache. Exceptions of course are Corvette, Solstice (except grille), new Sky, Cadillac, G6 kind of.

    Think that their advertising folks also know that styling is a weak point and don't give good camera shots of cars. Yesterday saw TV commercial for Lucerne and they talked about a dummy that they propose loaning to other car companies. They showed the interior of car and it looks like it is for an 80-year old grandmother. But, they only show fleeting shots of the exterior. If you relied on TV Buick spots, still would not know what the car looks like in profile, 3/4, rear, etc.

    From what I have seen in magazines and on internet, looks like rear of Lucerne mismatched to front. Rear design looks like VW Passat. Surprised that in commercials they don't bring back references to old-time GM guy named Harvey Earl, like they did in last couple of years, to talk about the fake portholes. Can anybody imagine these portholes appealing to people who cross shop Acura TL/Lexus ES300 or Avalon/Maxima? Does GM and Buick think that these shoppers will consider Lucerne? Don't think so. Seems that people that will buy Buicks are former Buick owners or those moving up from Chevy and Pontiac.

    Not Ford board, but Ford could of had a huge hit if its dull looking production 500 were based on car show "500" model that was painted all black and made rounds about 5-6 years ago. That's the style that was a knockout and it got a lot of attention at car shows, media/magazines. Remember seeing it at car show and it had huge crowds around it.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    The Impala is a huge improvement over the prior model. I would even consider one if it had stabilitrak and NAV. For now, it will appeal to middle America who is not interested in safety and features, just price. Meanwhile, the Accord is better equipped, you can get NAV and stability control. Now that S & P had downgraded GM even further, it's one more step away from bankruptcy. Keep coming out with bland cars while the competition stomps you and it will be curtains for sure.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Nice that the Accord has Nav. Do they sell any? Any Honda lot I look at I cannot find a nav screen in an Accord. Price is still $2000.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    My 29 average was over a 5000 mile trip to the West Coast over mountains and down highway 1 on the coast and then back over the mountains.
  • ontopontop Member Posts: 279
    Bankruptcy doesn't mean curtains for GM. In fact it'll force the company to reform into a leaner company, and not at GM's discretion, but the BK judge's.

    And if the BK judge drives an Acura.......
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    They at least offer it as an option. Chevy does NOT even offer stabilitrak. I guess they don't care too much about safety. Wait...I take that back... they want you to buy a Caddy so you can get that feature. Oh.. wait.. the Buick?? Pay for safety... nice going GM!!! No wonder you're in the situation you're in right now.
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    andre1969 wrote: "I'm still shocked at how well the Camry's doing...it seems to be everybody's darling. Is Toyota really undercutting Honda in price or something on these cars?"

    A few months ago, we shopped the Accord, Camry, and new Sonata. Having owned Honda's before, I leaned toward the Accord, but after driving, and later renting, a Camry LE, I can understand why the Camry's so successful. It simply does everything well, and the inclusive of the driver's power seat is not lost on those comparison shopping. Unless you buy the highline EX, you get a manual driver's seat in the Accord. On the surface, this seems minor, but for the Camry's target demographic, Toyota hits the mark.

    The Impala is a good product, and I wish it the best in the marketplace. Personally, I think Toyota may lose some sales with their new 2007 Camry, as they are targeting a younger demographic, similar to what Honda did with the 2006 Civic. It works for the Civic, but perhaps not with the Camry.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The EPA MPG published numbers are adjusted and if you want to compare one car with another, the actual results are probably the best. The EPA adjusted numbers are an attempt to rate the cars closer to what people get on average, although I have no idea how they arrive at the scheme to adjust the results. The actual testing is done to measure emissions, not fuel economy.

    The results before adjustment for the G6 are 40.4 MPG for the 3.5 automatic. The 3.9 manual gets 37.86 MPG. The Acura TL manual is rated 37.0 MPG. The current V8 STS is rated 32.8, probably the 2.73:1 axle ratio. All of these are the so called highway results.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I'll even admit that ever since the minor 2005 restyle, and how good it makes the SE model look, that I'm starting to prefer the Camry as well over the Accord. I still think the Accord's interior is nicer, and it feels like it has more legroom upfront for me, so honestly I'd be hard pressed to pick a clear winner for myself. The main thing I used to hate about the Camry was that with the manual adjust on the driver's seat, it was horribly cramped for me. I can get comfy enough with the power seat, though.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Styling will help sell cars, but not everyone likes the same thing. Some like the so called "art and science" styling that Cadillac developed. I liked the concept cars, but they did not have to meet the standard for highway use and the sigma platform cars seem to lack some of the original style. Other people do not like the art and science style at all. There are those who like the Chrysler 300 styling, which I do not, although the Dodge wagon is OK.

    So, it will take more than just styling to sell cars. One thing GM does have is fairly good reliability, at least according to J D Power. People's perception of quality is what has to be overcome though.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Chevy does have stabilitrak, but it is on the trucks, not the cars. Well Corvette...
This discussion has been closed.