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General Motors discussions

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  • stockmanjoestockmanjoe Member Posts: 353
    See below an interesting artile on the demise of GM:

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/com-12_11_05_PB.html
  • carlisimocarlisimo Member Posts: 1,280
    I dunno, all I read in there was buzzwords.

    It's a balance... when imported goods are cheap, there are less blue collar jobs here, but people can buy more luxuries with less. The service sector grows to meet the demand in luxury-shopping.

    And people in other countries are people. Some of us don't mind seeing them benefit - if the rest of the world is in the dumps, their problems spill over to us, too.
  • stockmanjoestockmanjoe Member Posts: 353
    carlisimo:

    Yeah I didn't say I agreed with it all. I just thought it a timely article for our discussion. I see us moving away from production all together for the most part in the future. Robots will do most of it.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Trouble is, where will all those excess workers go when jobs are downsized, outsourced, or automated out of existence? I see even mundane jobs like cashiers being automated out of existance with automatic checkouts at the supermarket. I won't be surprised if the day comes when a McDonald's is like a high-tech Automat where you swipe a debit card and a Big Mac and fries pops out an opening like a vending machine. Will a day come when everybody no longer works and enjoys lives of leisure or will it be a medieval lifestyle for all but for a tiny elite?
  • carlisimocarlisimo Member Posts: 1,280
    I initially dismissed it as propaganda but you're right, it's something we should be thinking about.

    The thing with robots and automation is that they've never led to the giant job cuts that people have expected. Looms and sewing machines changed that sector but didn't wipe out jobs there, and in modern offices there are a lot of jobs in data entry and IT that came out of the shift towards computers.

    If computers do get good enough to replace us in large numbers... it'll be Matrix time.
  • stockmanjoestockmanjoe Member Posts: 353
    Machines and robots are replacing jobs in the auto industry and others at a break neck pace. They have huge (and right now expensive) machines that dispense medications without the need for a pharmacist with 100% accuracy. In the future you will not see pharmacists at Walgreens and Walmarts. You may need them to load the machines and for research etc. but not near as many. The same is happening in the Auto industry.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,423
    The strife we are heading for will be awesome
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    "The strife we are heading for will be awesome"

    Fortunately, I am an old guy and I won't have to worry about it because I'll be dead. Ha Ha, take that, suckers!

    All I have to worry about is how my wife and I can enjoy each day of life we have.
  • stockmanjoestockmanjoe Member Posts: 353
    No need to panic guys. There will be plenty of jobs and things to do for people in the service sectors. The US has the lowest unemployment rate in years as for the European socilaist countries that is another story.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,423
    Of course both places figure unemployment differently.

    And Europe has less poverty and poverty related social ills than the US...

    Wage growth as of late barely paces the low inflation we're seeing. Service jobs are not usually living wage jobs. Maybe a new round of creative home financing will make everything better.

    I'll enjoy what I have now, future generations likely won't have it so good.

    And to be on topic...we'll see more plant closures in the future, as less of the populace can afford the products, and the overpaid underworked execs continue to do such a laughable job of marketing and product development.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    No, I don't think there is anything in the way of style which is compelling enough to turn around sales. I looked at a CTS the other day, and the price was $35K. I asked the salesman why should I consider this car compared to say a BMW3 or a Chrysler 300 and he had no answer. He basically said he was not familiar enough with the other cars to say how they compared. Well if the salespeople do not know the competition or have anything to say which would convince the potential buyer, perhaps it is case closed. Considering the BMW has an inline 6, a richer interior, and the Chrysler 300 is less expensive, maybe there is nothing to say in defence of price on the CTS. At $30k and under, maybe it would make more sense. The Chrysler 300, with a Hemi cost less than a CTS with a V6.

    Loren
  • stockmanjoestockmanjoe Member Posts: 353
    Not sure why all the pessimism. US has created 10's of millions of jobs since 1981 the most by far in the world and yes many of them are high paying. Personal income has increased, education levels has increased, crime is down, life expectancy up, stats go on and on. Anecdotally, these kids have more today than any of us did, more toys (good grief! kids have so many today) more clothes, cell phones, cars etc not necessarily good but an indicator of wealth.

    I agree very much that the CEOs that drove GM and Ford into the ground are to blame but you do not mention greedy big labor who also is to blame. They negotiated over generous salaries and benefits packages that have made them uncompetitive in todays market.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,676
    >the salespeople do not know the competition

    Did you check with other salespersons in the dealership to see if they knew more. The salesman gave you an honest answer and you're belittling him. If he had told you facts comparing the cars you would not have taken the information either, based on your other posts I've read.

    I go to showrooms with knowledge of competitive cars. I don't depend on the salesmen to tell me. I practically laughed at the Avalon salesman last spring who was giving me a bunch or propaganda comparing "his" car to other cars. However if you are shopping the 300 vs the CTS you probably are a 300 buyer to begin with. They've done well in their niche market in this area. I'm watching to see what restyle they'll do like the Accord's early restyle. The 300 style is like the 57 Plymouth--it's tiring fast.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I have to agree with imidazol07 that salespeople vary in their knowledge of the competition. Some salespeople really know their stuff and others are just trying to sell you their product. I don't think that the Chrysler 300 is really in the CTS or BMW 3-series category except in price. The 300 is closer to the larger cars like the 5-series or STS except in price.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I'd have fired that salesman on the spot for lack of brand-knowledge. The guy should've come up with at least half a dozen reasons why on e should choose the CTS over a BMW 3-Series! If you're going to sell my product - know it and the competition's! Idiot! Good God, I hate it when I go into a car dealership and know more about the car than the guy trying to sell it. I want to learn things about the car I don't know. Fortunately, the guy who sold my girlfriend her LaCrosse knew the car and could communicate it to her.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    I have been thinking about this what the heck happened to the Pontiac Grand prix? I remember the when the last generation Grand Prix was out I used to see them often and they weren't rentals either. The current one is not selling like the last generation did. Same for the Malibu. I think GM messed up the styling on the current Malibu and Grand Prix. Thats a shame they messed up on the Malibu because it actually has a good interior from what I have seen. The couplike styling on the current Grand Prix has been criticized alot.

    Why did GM put a rebadged Equinox in the Pontiac line-up with the Torrent? Pontiac should not be selling any kind of trucks from the dealership lots. When I think about Pontiacs I think about cars that are styled for the better(the good unique styling from 1986-1991 or the bad which means ribbed claddling 1992-1999.) I don't think about trucks or min-vans( Montana)when I think about Pontiac. Why would GM sell a mini-van or a truck in the pontiac line-up? It just doesn;t make any sense.

    Another thing either GM shout shut down GMC the way Chrysler did with Plymouth a few years ago or just not sell any trucks under the Chevy name. What is the use of a truck when it is basically the same truck selling both under the GMC and Chevy name. That is a waste of money to put two of the same exact trucks in 2 different line-ups.

    I say shut down GMC or din't sell any trucks under the chevy name.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Yes, we have more and we also have less. Back in the day, my Dad, with a high school education and a stint in the Navy, could provide Mom and us three kids with a decent middle-class lifestyle in our own house which he paid-off in a brief 12 years. He worked an ordinary factory job as a welder in a plant that manufactured commercial ovens and ranges. Mom stayed at home and raised us when we were very young and chose to go back to work when we were older, not because our family needed the income, but that she wanted a little pocket money to buy the extra things she wanted. Dad was able to send all three of us kids to college so we can enjoy a standard of living even better than the one he experienced. Did it happen?

    Well, yes and no. I do make more money than Dad ever did. I have two Cadillacs and Dad never owned anything better than a Ford. I have a college education. However...

    Despite the fact I make more money, everything costs a lot more on a percentage basis - insurance, health care, taxes, utilities, etc.

    I don't have or want kids - can't afford 'em.

    I have the same modest kind of house Dad owned.

    I am not married - doesn't make any sense if I don't want kids and there is no longer any respect for the institution of marriage. Easy divorce is a peril for all men - half your income could easily vanish for no reason but the whim of a woman who is simply tired of you and wants someone new.

    If I was reckless and self-destructive enough to get married, my wife would have to work and the kids will be raised by strangers in day care. The kids will either become little delinquents as there would be nobody to properly raise them or resent both my wife and myself as we could spend no time with them. Raising kids is a labor-intensive effort and a task that shouldn't be entered into lightly. True, kids enjoy a lot more cool gadgets than I did. However, more toys aren't a substitute for proper parental love and guidance.

    I have very little time for myself as I am always working whereas Dad had a lot of leisure time for himself and the family.

    I need to have an advanced degree and constantly need to upgrade my skills to remain competitive whereas Dad finished school years ago and it was sufficient for his career.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    is a division that represents almost pure profit for General Motors, so don't look for it to go anywhere anytime soon. By and large they're just better looking, nicer trimmed versions of their Chevy counterparts, yet they sell very well and really don't cost much money on the R&D front. GMC also gives Pontiac/Buick dealers a truck to sell, without having to sell Chevies.

    Also, it is not a given that ditching GMC would automatically ensure every one of those buyers would buy a Chevy instead. Some would, many would not. It actually made sense for Chrysler to drop Plymouth, because Plymouth was down to a shell of its former self, only pushing one or two cars and a minivan. However, even here D-C lost some sales when Plymouth was axed. The Dodge Neon never picked up the slack created when the Plymouth Neon was discontinued. and the Voyager didn't sell as well as a Chrysler as it did as a Plymouth. The Stratus/Sebring also never fully picked up the slack left by the departed Breeze.

    IIRC, GMC is GM's #2 nameplate, behind Chevrolet. It outsells Buick, Pontiac, Cadillac, Saturn, and Saab. It's not going anywhere anytime soon.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "It actually made sense for Chrysler to drop Plymouth, because Plymouth was down to a shell of its former self, only pushing one or two cars and a minivan. However, even here D-C lost some sales when Plymouth was axed. The Dodge Neon never picked up the slack created when the Plymouth Neon was discontinued."

    With the 2000 Neon the interior was cheap and the looks of it from the back were not pretty in my opinion. The SR-T models did do alright with younger buyers for a couple years though. On a side note I never thought of the Neon as a Plymouth because I always thought about it as a Dodge. I think another reason why the Neon lost some of its following was the 1995-1999 model I don't think well did well on the quality/reliability front.

    "and the Voyager didn't sell as well as a Chrysler as it did as a Plymouth."

    In my opinion the Voyager name does go well more with Plymouth than it does Chrysler so the Voyager did probably lose sales as a Chrysler.

    "The Stratus/Sebring also never fully picked up the slack left by the departed Breeze."

    I saw you document the problems that the current Stratus and Sebring have on the "What will it take for consumers to consider American brands". I saw in your post about the Stratus/Sebring about the interiors being deconted in the 01 Sebring/Stratus from where the 95 Sebring/Stratus was in terms of quality of interior materials and I would have to agree with you there. Also I always liked the looks of the 95 Sebring better than the current model. Maybe if the current Sebring just looked better on the outside and the interior plastics were of higher quality maybe it would have sold better. Right now its a rental fleet car.

    On the subject of the Plymouth Breeze was it really that big of a seller?

    BTW, I hope the next Sebring/Stratus returns to its styling roots of the 1st generation models and the quality of interior plastics is better than the current models.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,423
    I'd love to see those claimed personal income increases in relation to housing costs, medical costs, education costs, and the costs of virtually every commodity. Right now income growth isn't outpacing inflation, and a lot of these "new" jobs aren't ones with good incomes. And gadgetry that has fooled the masses into believing it is necessity is not a wealth indicator. Plenty of lower income people have cells etc.

    Who signs the contracts for the UAW?
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,676
    >and a lot of these "new" jobs aren't ones with good incomes.

    That has been a problem for the last 3 presidents. No one wants to face reality that you can't move jobs offshore that pay and still have jobs here.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Why did GM put a rebadged Equinox in the Pontiac line-up with the Torrent?

    Because truck sales are over 50% and growing in this country. Pontiac dealers are not all dueled with GMC so the independents were hurting. do not worry though, soon the Torrent will be gone (3-4 years) as most all Pontiac dealers will be dueled with Buick/GMC for a complete offering.

    Besides I loved the Torrent when I took it on a long trip with my family. No problem going thru the mountains and I was surprized at how much space there was in al little truck.
  • xthecatxthecat Member Posts: 30
    You got to have product knowledge. Remember when Chrysler salespeople used to sell K cars with the opening line "looks like a Mercedes". I'm waiting for the time when GM builds a car that "looks like a Ferrari"
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    GM did have the Fiero! :P And the first of the Plymouth Reliants did have a grille that somewhat cribbed the Benzes of the time...back then though the trend was upright, pretentious grilles and the formal look, so the Reliant fit right in!

    As for the Torrent, count me in as one who'd take it over the Equinox. The Equinox isn't a bad looking little truck, but I think the Torrent just has a better looking front-end. If I were in the market for one, the styling would be enough to sway me.
  • xthecatxthecat Member Posts: 30
    Fiero, I liked that car. Whey do they kill anything with a future?
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    I'd have to agree with m1 and lemko, an unknowledgeable salesperson is not a good thing to have. Like you, I before I step into a dealership I've already done my homework. But when going into a dealer, and the salesperson doesn't know the product, its competition, its intended market, then why would I buy from there as m1 stated? Also, this may translate to some people that the dealership as a whole is not knowledgeable about the products. Which means, sales manager, parts dept., service dept. and on and on. So you may end up buying a vehicle from an inept salesperson, then having it worked on by an inept service department.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I recall an editorial cartoon from three years ago where Bill Clinton and Alan Greenspan are in a restaurant. Bill Clinton says to Greenspan, "Two million jobs were created under my administration!" The waiter then replies, "Yes, and I have three of 'em!" What's better one GM job that provides a decent middle-class lifestyle or three jobs, one each at Wal-Mart, Starbucks, and McDonald's that barely provide a subsistance living and are supplemented by taxpayer sponsored aid?
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    Exactly, I may have my own opinion and bias, but it is a sales person's job to try to change my mind. It is exactly a question I would ask if I have some doubts: "Give me some good reason to buy A, not B". If they concede without trying or say things "I don't know other cars", good bye...

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Just as the Corvair got off to a rocky start, so did the Fiero, with some catching fire. The later cars, with the 6 cylinder, may be more favored, particularly today as used cars.

    Loren :shades:
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Did you check with other sales persons in the dealership to see if they knew more. The salesman gave you an honest answer and you're belittling him. If he had told you facts comparing the cars you would not have taken the information either, based on your other posts I've read.
    ~~ end quote ~~
    Just telling you the facts. If you are going to try to sell a car for as much money as a BMW, or more than a Chrysler 300, you certainly should be able to answer a simple question - -Why? I know the information available on the Net, and have seen some road tests, and still have to ask why - why Cadillac. Am I buying the nameplate? I was just driving by, and saw the new DTS and stopped to view it. I then proceeded on over to the CTS and noticed a $35K price tag on it. A salesman offered to HELP. They always say, can I help, so I assume some simple question were in order. I was not there to cross examine every salesman. And yes, the honest answer of I don't know is correct. A very good man indeed. How it sells cars to have people without knowledge of cars in general, and particularly their own models, is beyond me.

    As for styling, the Cadillacs are interesting, though nothing to justify an extra $5K or more over a comparable car. Are they selling handling? Is it better than say the BMW? Is it finish of the car which is better? Better interior? Best engine in class? So far it appears to me that the CTS is a good average car, which looks interesting, sort of classy and bit sporty. Not a leader in any one category, yet overall it is OK. Now, tell me why the premium price? The sales people don't know, and GM doesn't know because...

    Loren
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The basic problem with the Fiero was that Pontiac sold the concept to GM management as an economy car to be made out of existing parts. The front suspension was from the Chevette and was not up to being a sports car suspension. Once the Fiero was established, the suspension was upgraded, but owners were disappointed with the first couple of years of production, so they killed the car by word of mouth.
  • big_prizebig_prize Member Posts: 50
    Why did GM put a rebadged Equinox in the Pontiac line-up with the Torrent? Pontiac should not be selling any kind of trucks from the dealership lots.

    Why does Porsche have an SUV? Or BMW? Why does Mazda have an Escape clone? The Torrent could be a good Pontiac, if they put a better engine in it (or at least offered a better engine as an option). Also, its suspension should be dialed to a more sporty level, somewhat closer to Murano. Then the Torrent would make good sense as a Pontiac. As it is now, it's still more attractive than the Equinox, especially in the front, and it's only a couple hundred bucks more.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Right on Lemko !!!!! ;)
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,676
    That's where we're headed. But it's nice that so many people feel "good" about how we're sending the jobs elsewhere.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • donthegreekdonthegreek Member Posts: 127
    I like the Torrent over the Equinox...Would I buy one?? No...why?? because of the lousy engine. They can do so much better.They always do it wrong the first time out.
  • carlisimocarlisimo Member Posts: 1,280
    I remember a while ago Editor Karl (Brauer) was raving about the Torrent. So apparently it's very good.

    Then in his blog he wrote that he had driven the new Rav4 and proceeded to write:

    "Well, I didn't want to go there right off the bat. But as happens too often, when you drive the GM entry in a vacuum it seems fine, or even very good. But then you drive the competition in close proximity to driving the GM entry and...well..."

    I think it's that GM benchmarks a lot, and is happy to reach the current competition's level. So they have products that are good, solid choices. Perfectly adequate, if you're into that sort of thing. Just that people who do research find out that there's often something better.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    No, but if it's not too late, 2007 and 2008 might save GM. GM is headed on the right track in getting the fit and finish right. GM just now needs to add value.

    2006:

    Why by a Grand Prix GXP for $36K when I can get a $35K Acura TL with a 6 speed manuel, Voice Recognition Navigation, DVD-Audio, and a car that will roast it 0-60, handling, top speed, and residual value. Not to mention 35-36 mpg highway. vs 28 mpg and the lack of the features and resale of the above ???? :cry:

    I'm a GM lover, but boy 2006 isn't going to save em'

    Rocky
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Why by a Grand Prix GXP for $36K when I can get a $35K Acura TL with a 6 speed manuel, Voice Recognition Navigation, DVD-Audio, and a car that will roast it 0-60, handling, top speed, and residual value. Not to mention 35-36 mpg highway. vs 28 mpg and the lack of the features and resale of the above ????

    Maybe because the Acura with automatic/nav/rr spoiler/side moldings/18" wheels is actually $38,294 while a totally loaded GXP is 34,210? About $4000 difference is a bit of change to some people. Yes there are some differences but at least lets start with the proper pricing comparison. Both have plus's and minus's that will sway buyers either way.
    styling on both is quite attractive on the exterior. Interior however goes to the Acura.

    http://www.pontiac.com/byo/buildSummary.pg;jsessionid=XMRDYAB0K34LECSUR2USCAQKKS- HSQIJK?regularOptions=PDE^US4^U2K^AY1&iPi=3&fPi=3&pvc=2232&exteriorColor=Blue-gr- een%20Crystal%20&colorOptions=26U^193^AR9&interiorColorId=193&styleId=GXP%201SA&- make=pg&seatTypeId=AR9&model=Grand%20Prix&modelId=044&noType=0&exteriorColorId=2- 6U&year=2006&interiorColor=Ebony%20Ultralux%20Suede/leather-appointed%20Seating%- 20&colorVisited=true&subModelId=82&makeId=002&style=GXP%201SA&zip=48226&&options- Visited=true&vehicleModel=/images/gmbp/16002/vehicle/2006/med/82_214M.jpg&exteri- orColorChipUrl=/images/gmbp/color/chips/ext/med/214M.gif&interiorColorChipUrl=/i- mages/gmbp/color/chips/int/med/193_grandprix.gif&contexLink=&originatingBrand=GR- ANDPRIX
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    how does an Acura TL, which will do 0-60 in around 6.6 seconds with a stick shift (according to an Edmund's test I found) roast a GXP, which is supposedly good for around 5.8-6 seconds with its "antiquated" 4-speed automatic?

    And how are you supposed to drive a TL to get 35-36 mpg out of it? My uncle has an '03 Corolla and he doesn't even get 35-36 mpg out of it on the highway? I have a buddy with a VW Passat who can get about that, but he's a hyper-miler and does scary things like shutting it off and letting it coast, driving so slow that he holds up traffic, etc.

    And now, before I start sounding like a GM hugger here, let me say that, given the choice, I prefer the TL! I just like the styling better, like the interior better, etc. But I'm just trying to keep it real. The Grand Prix might not be everybody's cup o' tea, but it at least does a few things right.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Well on a 250 mile trip in my 2005 Acura TL I did indeed avg 35 mpg in 6th gear going 70 mph. So either my computer is faulty, or you guys are making assumptions based on non-facts. 0-60 in 6.6 is the automatic. 0-60 in 5.7 seconds is for the manuel and Quarter mile in 14 flat. By the way dieselone the Acura TL with manuel plus summer tires and Navi was $35,600. I spent $33K on my copy. I was one of the lucky ones to get a rare anthracite color one. I would race any GP GXP for titles. Comparing the 2 is like apples and oranges. One is a superior family drivers car, and the other should be a rental at the hertz lot.

    Ya'll know I am as pro-GM as they come. I however am going to speak the truth. Not to mention you can now lease a TL for $399 a month :P and have a superior machine= once again the best car $$$$$$$$ can buy. I thaught that title was going to be won by the Lexus IS 350. Boy at $47K , I'll pass. The TL is still champ.

    Rocky :shades:

    Well your uncles Corolla doesn't have a superior engineered 3.2 liter VTEC :P
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    I am pretty sure there would be no roasting on either side. Most of the tests I have seen but them at around the same time for 0-60.

    As for the gas mileage, I really, really doubt anyone is getting 35-36 without resorting to goofball antics like your Passat friend.

    And, Rocky, as for your racing for pinks - Could you really get your Dad to sign over the title for his TL if you lost?
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    My father works for General Motors. I was the black sheep of my family that owned a 05' Acura TL. Neyways, The GXP is not in the same ball park as the TL. Before I baught my TL, I test drove a GXP and found it dissapointing from a engineering standpoint, even though I got a GM employee discount from my family. With the poor GM dealerships down here in West Texas, I baught the TL out of anger and quickly fell in love with it. Yes my computer read avg. mpg of 35. So according to ya'll I'm a liar and never owned a TL. I have no reason to lie folks. I am basing my info off of the computer in my former car. ;)

    Rocky
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    how does an Acura TL, which will do 0-60 in around 6.6 seconds with a stick shift (according to an Edmund's test I found) roast a GXP, which is supposedly good for around 5.8-6 seconds with its "antiquated" 4-speed automatic?
    The Grand Prix might not be everybody's cup o' tea, but it at least does a few things right.


    According to Edmund's test, looks like the GXP will beat the TL to 60 MPH by .6 or .8 second. BUT, everyday driving is not confined to a quarter mile dragstrip and straight-ahead acceleration. We all need cars that are also able to "turn" and "handle".

    GXP is miserable in Edmunds slalom test at 56.0 MPH whereas TL achieves 67.5 MPH in slalom. Believe that Camry and minivans can outperform GXP in slalom. Camry does 61.8 MPH in slalom and even a Suzuki Verona is better than GXP at 61.0 MPH. GXP is lucky to keep out of its own way. Following are Edmunds comments on these two cars:

    2004 Acura TL

    The TL feels extremely confident on the street, but it took several runs through our slalom to confirm its status as one of the best-handling front-wheel drivers we've sampled. The steering is properly weighted and offers stellar feedback. The engine's broad torque range and progressive throttle response made powering through the slalom easy, and the smart chassis/suspension tuning allowed us to place the car easily between cones. Technically, it may not be as "fun" as a BMW 3 Series, but it obviously goes through the slalom just as rapidly.

    2005 Grand Prix GXP

    The GXP is extremely difficult to drive in the slalom. Combine numb GM steering with a nose-heavy front-wheel-drive vehicle prone to torque-steer and it becomes a real handful. The car wants to rotate on a hair trigger, and once it comes around it is very difficult to correct. Stability control did not seem to be functioning, or if it was we didn't notice.
    The V8 power is nice, but with its crude interior, vague steering and massive torque steer the 2005 Pontiac Grand Prix GXP is never much fun.

    Has anybody actually test-driven both a TL and a GXP and then consciously bought the GXP where buying price was not a factor?

    And, styling alone will not save GM nor Pontiac. Grand Prix was a "grand" car in early years but has evolved into so-so styling. Rear of GXP looks especially weird having a bulbous, almost pregnant, appearance.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    Rocky, you have to expect people to call you on your bold comments sometimes.

    Sometimes your braggadocio (and maybe your spelling and punctuation) is reminiscent of a teenager. Believe it or not, not everyone on the internet is who they claim to be.

    In all seriousness, you can't really use a one-way computer reading. It just isn't that reliable as an indicator of fuel economy.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Well I'm ok with that. Then the computer is wrong. I read in one of the car mags 0-60 in 5.7 and Quarter mile in 14.0 flat. That's where I'm basing my results from. I am never going to be a grammar/punctuation god. I however am 26 yrs. old married and a father of 2. I have driven both cars, and baught the TL. I will admit I do sometimes go overboard on bragging. I am just really speaking from my expierences with both cars, and was the blacksheep for a long time in my family. My GM family wouldn't speak to me for months over my purchase of a Acura. I told them, if ya'll's company would treat folks like human beings, I would of maybe decided on the GP GXP because it's a GM car. But the local dealerships down here wouldn't honor my GM employee discount, because it's a "hot car" and I told them to kiss me where the sun doesn't shine.

    Rocky
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    that a TL would outhandle a GXP in the slalom test. However, on my commute to work I'm lucky if I even get up to a speed of 50 mph, let alone 56, 61.8, or 67.5! And on a straightaway, even!

    The slalom advantages of the TL would probably be lost to most drivers in everyday traffic situations. Plus, the TL is one of those cars that you really have to wind up to get the power out of it, whereas the GXP you just tap it and go. You know, the old saying about buying hp but driving torque.

    Still, overall I'd probably take the TL over the GP. With me though, price IS a factor (I could afford a more expensive car, but would just rather put the money into something else), so I'd probably just get an Impala SS and call it a day. Cheaper than the TL or GXP, roomier than either, styling and an interior I could live with, etc.

    But, the typical TL buyer isn't going to cross-shop an Impala, and vice versa.

    As for fuel economy, computer readings can be very innacurate sometimes. Best way to do it is the old fashioned way, where you fill up the tank, and divide how many miles you went by how many gallons it took to fill up. And even that can vary, because you don't fill the tank to quite the same level every time, although with a larger tank, the difference becomes more negligible.

    BTW, my buddy with the Passat calculates it both ways, with the computer and dividing the miles by the gallons. The computer is always a few mpg more optimistic. I had an '88 LeBaron that was like that, as well. The problem is most computers just take a reading every few seconds, and the average that over time. So when you're at a traffic light, a zero will get thrown into that string of numbers, and when you put it in neutral on the highway you can get it to read something ridiculous. My LeBaron only went to 99 mpg, but my buddy's Passat will actually show you the "infinity" symbol. Sure, over time, the computer will take enough readings to get the average down pretty close to your actual economy, but it will still usually be off by a few mpg. And they're usually more optimistic than than not, because a 99 or other ridiculous number is going to sway the figures in that direction more than a zero would in the other.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,676
    I checked mine occasionally on 03 LeSabre. It was within 1 mpg. But it was on the optimistic side.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Well living where I do. " NW West Texas" we have lots of canyons and curvy roads to expierence the handling of a car. The TL is very luxurious and rewarding for cruising 70 mph too. DVD-Audio 5.1, quiet cabin, Voice Recognition to operate the climate, 6 disc cd player, bluetooth, and Navigation with nearly 300 commands. The TL is also a safer car, and more fuel efficient. I might consider one once again, if they make a Type-S version ;)

    Rocky
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    The slalom advantages of the TL would probably be lost to most drivers in everyday traffic situations.

    Someone who buys a GXP will want to drive enthusiastically at certain times. This could be on weekends or trips if the person lives and commutes on 30 MPH city streets. Edmunds test results and comments show that GXP is a poorly designed vehicle with suspension/steering not capable of handling size of engine. Perhaps GXP could handle as good as Camry or Suzuki if it had an ecotek 4 which is lighter weight than a big V8.

    One thing you can "always" observe about some car companies such as Honda/Acura, BMW and so forth is that their cars are well balanced and not overpowered. Can't say the same about GM, Chevy and Pontiac. It seems that at times, GM stuffs big engines in cars for straight-line acceleration without regard to handling.
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