General Motors discussions

berri

The Europeans are also pretty generous to their industries. The German car industry in not unlike the Airbus situation. That may be how they get by with their very generous employee benefits.

The Asians don't have the legacy costs of the US and Europe. That may start changing in the next decade.

Mr_Shiftright

I think GM would have problems no matter where they built their cars.

China now owns Hummer. It'll be interesting to see how that pans out.

british_rover

The unions in Europe are so much more powerful then here you can't even compare them evenly.

Have we ever had a real full on general strike in the US? Not that I am aware of but in European companies the unions used to be able to pull one off.

The european automakers don't have nearly the healthcare costs that we have in the US because all countries have either a single payer system, NHS in the UK for example, or highly regulated gov't subsidized plans through their employer like germany has.

Mr_Shiftright

Europe took the road of "free market" but with emphasis on social welfare/common good. But one aspect of globalization and the repeal of Bretton Woods in 1971 is that if one big economy goes down, everybody goes down. No country can fight back anymore against massive capital infusion/extraction.

I think if I were CEO of GM I'd study the world as it was in 1970 and figure out what part of that world it is in my power to recover (if any).

It certainly does seem like the decline of the GM Empire mirrors the decline of the American Empire. Maybe the old adage "what good for GM is good for the country" was actually true!

vinnyny

If the UAW built the very best cars in the world and charged extra for them, do you really think consumers would refuse to buy them?

I refer you back to your opening line...

The bottom line is still the bottomline. In addition to all their other problems, GM had a huge cost disadvantage. IF they were building BMWs or Porsches, then they could have easily covered that gap. However, they were building cars for every man and charging more than people were willing to pay (before incentives).

Mr_Shiftright

But...so are Toyotas. The Yaris is a car for everyman, or the Corolla. And the Prius is the world's leading hybrid. And Toyotas are not bargain priced particularly.

I think if the product were better, then there would be no one to blame, would there?

imidazol97

> if the product were better,

Your post seems to be predicated on the idea that GM cars are bad, even compared to Toyotas?

How do you feel the quality of the newer GM offerings is of the last few years sans the legacy vehicles that everyone kvetches about thinking GM should just quit making anything that poster doesn't like. Obviously in a business world they have to keep building pickup trucks and selling them because of their investment and the cost of scrapping a plant and rebuilding with a new design next week.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't know how I feel about GM quality in 2009. Would YOU buy one with complete confidence that you aren't going to have any trouble?

I think as CEO I'd have to put a lot of energy into getting GM products off the "worst THIS" and "worst THAT" lists that we find everywhere we look. This is not good.

Example**: (from Consumer Reports Publications)

**(shifty note A) Please note only one Japanese car on the list:

** (shifty note Please also note that THREE of the GM brands listed are now extinct (or soon to be)

** (shifty note C) Please also note that the healthiest of the D3 has no cars on the list

"Worst of the worst"

These have multiple years of much-worse-than-average reliability among 1999 to 2008 models. Listed alphabetically.

Audi A6 Allroad
Audi A8
BMW X5 (V8)
Buick Rendezvous (AWD)
Cadillac SRX
Chevrolet Blazer
Chevrolet Colorado (4WD)
Chevrolet S-10 (4WD)
Chevrolet Uplander
Chevrolet Venture
Chrysler Pacifica
Chrysler Sebring convertible
Chrysler Town & Country (AWD)
Dodge Grand Caravan (AWD)
GMC Canyon (4WD)
GMC Jimmy
GMC S-15 Sonoma (4WD)
Jeep Grand Cherokee
Kia Sedona
Land Rover Discovery, LR3
Mazda RX-8
Oldsmobile Bravada
Oldsmobile Silhouette
Pontiac Aztek
Pontiac G6 (V6)
Pontiac Montana, Montana SV6
Porsche Cayenne
Saturn Relay
Volkswagen Cabrio
Volkswagen Jetta (V6)
Volkswagen New Beetle (turbo)
Volkswagen Passat (V6, FWD)
Volkswagen Touareg
Volvo XC90 (6-cyl.)

CONCLUSION? Public perception REALLY matters.

vinnyny

I agree that GM needs to put more emphasis on quality. However, even if they fixed their quality, they'll still be at a competitive disadvantage to their Asian counterparts.

Interesting to note that only two of the GM cars on the list will be in production next year (and that's really just one because the Canyon and Colorado are the same vehicle).

Mr_Shiftright

True but....it costs the same amount of money to make a bad car as it does to make a good one....in terms of quality control I mean.

But aside from reliability, --it's the styling, comfort and performance that matter the most.

I'd say the cost of the car, if its a few hundred or even a thousand more than the competition, is not a factor for success if everything else is really really good. Toyota has pretty much proven this, as has BMW and Subaru.

grbeck

Mr. Shiftright: Data from the Congressional Budget Office states that average real income of the bottom 90% of American taxpaypers (which should include all UAW members) fell 7% 1973-2000. The top 1%'s income rose $148% and the top 0.1% (which should include the CEO of GM) rose 343%. (this, by the way, *excludes* capital gains).

This doesn't prove that the wages of UAW members failed to keep pace with inflation. The number of UAW workers in that 90 percent is literally a drop in the bucket...if that amount. An increase in UAW wages would simply be overwhelmed by the direction of everyone else's wages in that income bracket of society.

The bottom 90 percent of the population also includes illegal immigrants and the native workers who compete directly with them. Ilegal immigration produces downward pressure on the wages of people who compete directly with them in the employment market for jobs. This downward pressure will affect the entire 90 percent bracket.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't think so. I think the bottom 90% would include ALL UAW workers.

Households earning over $100,000 is about 15%. (85th percentile and above)

At $60000 per year, a UAW worker would be in the 63rd percentile.

A person earning minimum wage would be in about the 15th percentile.

U.S. national median is about $44,000 (50th percentile).

SOURCE: US Census Bureau, 2005

No matter how you cut it, if you're in 90th percentile or less, you are earning less money than you used to.

stever

I was thinking there might have been a last gasp effort to get Penske back on board but I guess not. Time to tweak the title of this discussion.

hpmctorque

Yeah, it's time to tweak, archive or delete it.

andys120

jae5

While I agree with you and the host that quality has to improve, continuously improve, GM can't continually use the "competitive disadvantage" excuse either. The day is going to start and end with product, the whole product, not just a little glamour and glitter. And it doen't help that GM over-prices their vehicles then has to put $$Ks on the hood to move the metal. Kind of counter-productive and doesn't really fall under competitive disadvantage.

Also, you earlier posted about the southern states offering tons of incentives to the the "foreign" manufacturers and not to the domestics. You do understand that this is based on new plants / facilities and the "incentives" don't last forever, usually lasting 5 ~ 10 years? Also, why would you offer a tax incentive when you don't have to? I mean, there may be a reason to do it, like if you're Michigan and you're trying to keep your one ecomonic base, but then can you actually afford reduced tax revenue? Unlike what the Fox gang thinks, you can't just cut taxes - eventually you're going to have to raise very high & very quickly.

Don't get me wrong, you've made good points & I agree with some of them. But the bottom line again comes to product, market knowledge, labor, management, willing to correct errors and being fleet of foot, especially in the global world.

scott1256

iluvmysephia1

green technologies and how we are going to re-charge them. Check out this article.

http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1037745_ford-developing-smart-charging-syste- - m-with-help-from-doe-and-utility-companies

Right down to wirelessly choosing charging sources and the appropriate times to charge up, so as to not overload the particular grid you're on. Pretty smart stuff-if they can get it to work right.

reddogs

stever

"General Motors last week began sending out 1.8 million pieces of direct mail to what the automaker calls its "free-agent customers" -- customers orphaned by the wind-down of Pontiac and Saturn and the proposed sell-off of Hummer and Saab.

Keeping GM orphans in the family is critical for the company to meet its market share goals. GM's post-bankruptcy plan calls for the automaker to achieve 19 percent plus market share to be profitable."

GM Orphans Up for Adoption (AutoObserver)

tstuckert

stever

"The last Pontiac products could take months to sell off, but by the end of 2010 the name will vanish from all but the history books. Along with it go about 2,000 GM dealers, about a third of the total, who were given notice as part of the automaker’s carefully managed, two-month run through bankruptcy court."

Pontiac hits end of the road after 82 years (MSNBC)

hpmctorque

riposte

riposte

Well...it sure looks like I was onto something when I started this thread. It's a shame it didn't get more traction.

smarty666

In short, I was looking for a place to vent because while I currently have Japanese luxury vehicles, for almost 30 years, I was loyal GM customer owning 8 different models that were Pontiacs, Chevrolets, and Buicks; it seems on this forum that even post bankruptcy that GM customer service and support still stinks and hasn't changed that much from back in the early 2000s and 1990s when I went through hell on all the GM products I owned!

here is a quick horror story on just 1 of the vehicles I had with GM; I had numerous problems on my 1990 Buick Skylark Coupe; BEFORE I hit 80k miles I had the following problems and repairs on my Skylark:
* new thermostat (twice)
* carbonator rebuilt and solenoid replaced
* brakes and rotors replaced (3 times)
* new starter motor (3 times)
* replaced water pump (2 times)

despite all these problems, the crem d crem of problem on my Skylark, BEFORE 80k miles, I had 5 alternators; each time an alternator went, I obviously broke down on the road and had to have the car towed to the dealership and have a new alternator replacement put on; finally, when I had to get the fifth alternator, the idiot GM mechanics said, you know we finally found out it was an electrical problem and that's why the car was eating through alternators

I spoke to the dealership service manager about getting them to pay some of my bills because of their stupidity and lack of finding the right problem until I spent thousands of dollars on alternators and labor but he said thre was nothing he could do and that I should contact GM customer service; well of course I did that, I pleaded my case to get GM to at least reimburse me half of what I put out for parts, labor, and towing because it was GM (Mr.Goodwrench) FACTORY trained technicians who missed the actual cause of my problems on 4 separate occasions costing me thousands of dollars; I wasn't even being greedy and wanting them to pay everything, I was only asking for half but after several calls and speaking to numerous supervisors I was all told the same thing, "sorry we can't help you because your not under warranty and the dealership is a separate entity from us" no matter what I did GM would not help me and basically said, "too bad for you"

I even said to them, listen, "its your name on the car, your name on the technicians uniform and dealership, your replacement parts and you should be standing behind your product"; here is the simple lesson, GM does not stand behind their products and never will and will act as if replacing alternators every 1.5-2 years is a normal maintenance occurrence on a vehicle - in fact I was told that on several occasions by different GM service technicians and advisors!

well I just neede to vent a little bit and tell my one of several dozen GM vehicle and service/customer service horror stories on just 1 of the 8 GM products I had, all of which gave me repair troubles in their own separate regards

suffice it to say that is why after problems on my 3 year old 04 Malibu I switched from GM, after 30 years, to Japanese vehicles and I couldn't be happier; my customer service, vehicle, and dealership experiences with Acura and Infiniti have been a world of difference compared to how I was treated by GM service departments and GM customer service!!!

Maybe my horror story can make some people understand why they needed bailouts and finally bankruptcy to stay a float in this car market!! despite my long horrible history with GM, I don't wish them harm, unlike some anti-japanese people on these boards, which is pretty sad when you hear them talk, but I hope GM gets their customer service in check and improves it drastically because just because you improve the quality and reliability of your products doesn't mean your going to have a wonderful dealership or corporate experience with a company!!

smarty666

agree with you 100 percent! part of the reason GM and Chrysler to a even worse extent, almost went under was because for almost 30 years corporate GM and exec managment had their heads buried in the sand and would not admit they had a problem building quality and reliable vehicles that could stand up against their foreign counterparts

it wasn't until after taking billions upon billions of yours and mine hard earn tax dollars in bailouts and subsequently a chapter 11 bankruptcy that GM upper-management admitted they had mis-management and did not produce vehicles American's wanted because of their lack of quality and long-term reliability!! just like substance abuse, admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery, which GM finally admitted last year thankfully, but if it wasn't for the American taxpayer and US Gov't bailing them out, admitting they had a problem would have come too late for them to save their company! they all owe us their jobs, business, and company!!!

another huge problem that all 3 American Auto Companies had was their UFAW cohorts sticking their hands in their pockets with skyrocketing costs for their employees - you know your spending too much money when US Toyota, Nissan, Honda, and Hyundai workers were making $20-30 dollars an hour when GM, Ford, and Chrysler workers were making double that an hour with high price retirement pensions/benefits which those three companies just could not afford to pay!

I have to say that if I was in charge of GM, I would have done most of the restructuring changes they made to their brands and product lines except for a few exceptions and changes but its going to take GM many more years to change their company around and until most American get confidence in them again and that their products can hold long-term reliability!!

maxx4me

Well, after trying to kill me with a botched repair and NO support from GM Detroit, they'll get no sympathy here. It is outrageous that our government did not let them go out of business. Once again, athletes and corporations get special attention, while the ordinary teacher or policeman gets nothing (but the bill).

bigtexas

I am in total agreement. For the past 10 years my relationship with GM has been like a bad 'marriage'. Only one side (mine) has tried to make it work. Their arrogance with a poor product is unbelievable. Within the next year I will be replacing my GM truck. Most likely it will be the last GM vehicle I ever own. I can only hope the company either turns around and understands what makes Ford, Toyota and Honda successful with the consumers or dies a death that has little cost impact to me and the nation.

smarty666

I hear you man!!! I was with GM for almost 30 years (1979-2005) and I had 8 different models with GM over those years

1979 Chevrolet Chevette
1984 Oldsmobile Cutlass
1990 Buick Skylark
1992 Buick Century
1994 Chevrolet Lumina
1997 Pontiac Grand Am
2001 Chevrolet Malibu
2004 Chevrolet Malibu

I used my 1990 Buick Skylark as an example of the poor quality of the vehicle, and the piss poor customer service both at the dealership level and corporate level of GM; if I had only problems with this one car it would be different, but I had major repairs and problems with all 8 of these GM vehicles, all of which was before I even hit 80k miles!!! :surprise:

what the really kicker is, GM never helped me out anytime I asked and I lived in denial for years that things would get better, but my 04 Malibu was the last straw when at before 40k miles my catalytic converter went and at the same time I had a power steering fluid leak that completely split fluid all over the engine compartment causing damage to several engine components!! that was the last straw

oh and by the way, before a GM loyalist/anti-japanese hater says its my fault that all these things happen, I had the standard maintenance interval checks and even had all my fluid levels checked at 30k miles at my dealership, which included the power steering, it just went out of now where!!

the problem is bigtexas that the GM lovers will come on here and try to either spin our horror stories that its either normal, our fault, or that they had no problems with their GM vehicles so there couldn't possibly be a problem with ours and we are making it up, but just can't seem to understand that our problems and poor customer service experiences is why GM had to take billions in our hard earn money, which still wasn't enough, and finally had to declare bankruptcy!!

my consistent model after model problems with GM cannot be simply explained away; it shows a consistent pattern of mis-management, poor quality/reliability, and lousy customer service which lead to their ultimate bankruptcy fate!!

now, despite all my problems and how poorly I was treated by GM over the years, I don't wish them any ill will, unlike their anti-japanese counterparts who are salivating at Toyota's problems and are glad that they are happening to them! I truly hope that GM can turn their company around but it hasn't even been a year since bankruptcy and restructuring and all these GM fans/loyalist think everything is completely turned around and it simply is not the case; you can't just declare bankruptcy, change the face of a few of your products, snap your fingers, and say "oh everything is completely better" - that's not how it works, its going to take GM years of improved profits, quality and LONG TERM reliability in their products in order for their to be a complete turn around and to become a major player and to prove not just to us disheartened GM customers but to the whole world that they are worthy of consideration when buying a car compared to their competitors

let alone improving drastically their dealership and corporate customer service experiences!!

Mr_Shiftright

The situation with Toyota is an illuminating one, I think, with regards to "brand loyalty" or "brand equity".

It has always been my opinion that it takes a good ten years to drive a respected nameplate into the dirt, and then another 20 years to dig it out again (see Cadillac as a prime example of how to ruin a great name).

With Toyota, they will suffer perhaps a 1% loss of market share, but they will not be abandoned by the American car buyer, because they do not have a record of ten years of bungling---it's more like an isolated big goof now and then.

One interesting ratio to look at among automakers is Percent Market Share vs. Percent Total Complaints. American companies don't look anywhere near as good under this ratio as Toyota for instance.

imidazol97

>the problem is bigtexas that the GM lovers will come on here and try to either spin our horror stories

Nah. I think you should buy a toyota. :P

smarty666

nah, Toyota's are boring and when I test drove a 2010 Camry last year I got motion sick to my stomach from all the bobbing up and down cause of the super soft suspension; if I had gotten that car I would have never been able to sit in the back seat! :P

maxx4me

bigtexas

"Nah. I think you should buy a toyota"...

Obviously in 2008 more people globally came to that conclusion over GM. It is that kind of blind GM statement that is reflective of their customer service and quality of their product.

Toyota will get past their current issue the same that Ford did with the Firestone fiasco and GM did with it ABS, Airbags, Tailgates support etc.

Go back and look at how GM handle the ABS recall, they limited to only certain states and only did it after the government forced it on them. They could never give a rational explaination why they should only fix the problem in certain states.

nvbanker

I completely agree with you shifty - as much as the government wants to make this a complete disaster for Toyota, I don't know anybody who owns one of the affected models who has told me they are going to sell their car and buy something else. They expect Toyota to fix the cars and on we go..... It will take more than this to permanently tarnish their image.

Mr_Shiftright

They have more to fear from South Korea than from America.

smarty666

I know right, that is what we did all the years after years of multiple TSBs and recalls coming out of GM and Ford; you had the company fix the problem, though with GM that didn't happen all the time,and then you moved on;

I too have asked almost a dozen close family and friends who currently own Toyota who said that these latest problems Toyota is having doesn't bother them in the least, none of them have experienced any UA, braking, or steering problem, and in fact mentioned they most likely would stay with Toyota!

you''ll find that a lot of the media hype and people who are making the biggest deal out of this thing with Toyota, just check the Toyota on the Mend 2010 forum are GM, Ford, and Chrysler loyalist that can't even admit GM and the other American auto manufacturers had problems (ie billions upon billions in loans and bailouts and bankruptcy for two companies and years upon years of poor customer service and unreliable/poor quality products) and are using these problems with Toyota as a excuse for payback for all the years that people crapped on GM, Ford, and Chrysler, specifically since it was the Japanese who became the bench leaders who directly took their sales for the last 20 years!

I don't mind some GM or Ford people pointing out Toyota's troubles but I mean they seem to forget pretty quickly that is wasn't too long ago that GM, Ford, and Chrysler were in similar shape, heck, Chrysler still is in pretty lousy shape!! they had terrible sales last month as I recall :surprise: !!

I guess they never heard the saying "two wrongs never made a right"; they didn't like it when people said bad things about GM and Ford but its okay to trash talk Toyota and beat the recall issues to death

I do understand that there are many disgruntled Toyota owners who have had some of these recall issues over the years and where completely dismissed by their Toyota dealerships; it is completely understandable for them to be angry that it took the lengths it did to get Toyota to admit their was a problem; I understand where they are coming from; I remember many a times bringing in TSBs and recall notices on my GM vehicles while the GM dealerships either dismissed my problems, said they can't find anything wrong though I experienced the problem myself, or played the dumb dumb card and said they never heard of the TSBs or recalls!

I'm not excusing what Toyota did and you would think a company like Toyota would not be making the huge mistakes that they are after seeing what GM, Chrysler, and Ford went through just not too long ago!!

oh well, such is life!! hopefully, as the GM CEO just recently said, "these problems with Toyota hurt the entire auto industry" and hopefully every car company sees now that the consumer is not going to be pushed around and lied to about problems/safety issues with the 2nd biggest purchase we make in our lives!

georgecavalier

wendellb

I don't have a problem with Buick as a brand. I hear it is a popular brand in China. I think the Lacrosse is a step in the right direction. What would get me in a Buick showroom? well if I had some cash, a great looking hatch back or special verion of the Cruze platform. Or , a touring wagon versiion of the new Aveo replacent car. This touring wagon has a turbo option. It says Buick it is classy smart and sporty.Maybe I am just crazy. I used to drool over brochures of the Coswoth twin cam Vega when I was a kid. Or how about a premium wagon on the Cruze platform withe direct injected turbo the Cruze doesn't get. GM has great platforms that Buick needs without pulling a CIMMIRON.

autophile_89

stever

GM's program ended on 9/30/10.

Kia didn't get the memo.

"A new avenue has opened for car shoppers wanting to buy a Kia. EBay Motors has partnered with Kia Motors America to create a new "online store front" where shoppers can submit a "Best Offer" to any of 345 participating Kia dealers nationwide. This means the haggling is done before the consumer walks onto the car lot."

Kia and eBay Create New Program for Buyers Who Hate to Haggle (Edmunds Daily)

kodename

Yes, Styling that's new and exciting can help GM win back market share,but styling alone is not enough. Ford just announced it is killing off the once promising LS.It was "styled" to go after the Euro buyers and it was at the time a refreshing new look. But Ford just let it die by not making it better and more appealing over time. Contrast this with the Lexus IS. A Butt Ugly model that Lexus hinted was aimed at the BMW wantta be crowd. Lexus didn't drop the car , they made it better over time, and they are still working on the formula to get it where it needs to be. A new vehicle is a hit when it sells 100K units+ in it's first year by Detroit standards. If it fails then it's left to starve for 3 to 5 years. Toyota (and others) seem to better understand the homework never ends. Bill C.

Karen_S

carthell

Well, it failed with GM vehicles in a place where GM products don't sell very well. Maybe if they picked a few metropolitan markets in flyover country, GM's attempt would have been better off.

I'd like to buy a new car over the Internet seamlessly. I'm hoping that the actual system in place between KIA and their dealers has been worked on to make the process smooth for the buyer. (I wouln't put any large bets on that.)