General Motors discussions

boomchek

It's not the dealer that reimburses you, it's GM. So I doubt that a dealer is losing any money in this transaction. And therefore no dealer will be selling you a new car at used car pricing based on assumptions.

dodgeman07

Take advantage of their ongoing stupidity and save 2-5 grand---- why pay new car price?

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GM management may be shackled by former business practices but they are far from stupid.

Your logic seems to be that: tens of thousands of vehicles will be returned to dealerships after 60-days so why not take your pick and get a heavy discount on an almost new vehicle.

The problem with this logic is that very few vehicles will be returned because of the high cost incurred to the "buyer". Unless you're very unhappy, you will NOT return a vehicle and incur the heavy fees ($1K-$2K) and hassles involved in this program.

That's not to say a few "almost new" GM vehicles won't be available. Some will be, but the odds of finding the make, model, trim, etc. that you want at a deep discount are slim at best.

P.S. What is arrogant the statement, "We're putting our money where our mouth is"?

lokki

"...very few vehicles will be returned because of the high cost incurred to the "buyer". Unless you're very unhappy, you will NOT return a vehicle and incur the heavy fees ($1K-$2K) and hassles involved in this program."

Been there, done that with a National rental car years ago (they were selling off their own previous-year rentals in those days) - and I agree -

You have to be pretty upset to be willing to take a hit of $1K -$2K to dump a 60 day old car. There aren't going to be very many to choose from, and frankly I'm not sure I'd want one that somebody was willing to pay $2K to get away from. :lemon:

bwillderd

What? Are you telling me that 'full refund' isn't genuine? Next thing you'll try to tell me is that the 240 mpg Volt won't go 240 miles on one gallon of gas.......really I knew the offer was phony, but whaterve happened to asterisks? I guess once you become a pseudo government entity you no longer have to bother with even feigned honesty.

sempergumby

I "bought" a Dodge 2010 sight unseen in August 23rd under the klunker program. My car was in 'D1' status meaning it would be delivered soon. It is now a month later and I still have not seen my new car. Neither have I seen my klunker money, because it is tied up in my 'to be delivered' new car. My questions:

1) Does this 60 day promo apply to cars 'bought' in August? I haven't paid in full, (but I did sign paperwork with all the purchase details), just my klunker $ deposit plus 500 earnest money, plus a month of rental fees. I also don't yet have the title. So will my deal, if the car ever comes in, get to be part of this 60 day promo?

2) Anybody know if I can get out of my current 'deal', and at what cost? I'm am seriously wondering why it is taking so long to have my vehicle delivered. Apparently "They don't know where it is". As far as I know its been stolen.

kernick

Don't worry; October's nearly here and the next series of purchase incentives will be coming. They'll probably have to increase the incentives since the economy is going nowhere quickly.

Maybe the government should stop playing all these special games with C4C, and 60-Day free-trials and just have GM cut their MSRP 15%. It would be a lot simpler for all!

andres3

and state that all cars in October will be sold for 33% off MSRP. Period. No gimmicks, no catches, no fineprint. Just state that everything, and I mean everything will be sold for 33% off MSRP and that is it. A low no haggle price for all in October.

I believe this will help "sales" more than 60 day gimmicks. Fire sale time!!!

lrguy44

And result in losses to the manufacturer that will help us lose the US auto industry

british_rover

I agree with Cliff one price models like that just don't work. For some vehicles 33% off would be way too much and for others 33% wouldn't be enough. For full size trucks right now the incentives could very well add up to 40% or more off and for smaller cars there is no way to ever have that much off MSRP.

The domestics need to bring all their MSRPs down slowly over time so they are closer to actual transaction prices but that can't happen overnight.

andres3

You mean losses to the American taxpayer right? Since the manufacturer doesn't have to bear the losses they create.

Also, how is that any different then the last 30 years of GM/Chrysler? They are used to losses, losses are the norm.

anythngbutgm

Huh? :confuse:

Karen_S

http://www.autoobserver.com/2009/09/gm-says-bye-bye-ebay.html

fintail

Gee, I don't believe it :sick:

Where does GM find its marketing bozos? I don't even want to think about what these sucks make, either.

michaellno

Looks like Penske has walked away from buying Saturn and GM will be closing down the brand:

GM Closing Down Saturn Brand

michaellno

Penske has walked away from buying the brand from GM:

GM to Shut Down Saturn

fezo

Saw that.

Unless he changes his mind that's it for Saturn.

It was a nice thought anyway.

stever

Just yesterday we were predicting a Wednesday or Thursday close.

Here's the lastest AutoObserver take.

"The Saturn dealership network represented a unique opportunity for Penske, but the risk was sourcing product and that proved to be too much to overcome to complete the deal."

hpmctorque

I wonder how much this will affect GM's volume and profits (or losses), since GM was going to supply the Penske Auto Group with Saturn models for the next two years. Some would-be Saturn buyers may buy a Chevy or Buick, but I'm thinking that not as many Saturn shoppers will cross shop Chevy or Buick as was the case with Oldsmobile owners, or even Pontiac owners. The reason for this is that for the first several years of its existence Saturn advertised itself as "A different kind of car company," or something similar. Even after that tag line was replaced, it seemed as though Saturn didn't try to associate itself with GM in its marketing. Therefore, it's my understanding that many consumers, and maybe even some Saturn owners, don't know that Saturn is a GM brand. This is likely to make it more challenging, and expensive, for GM to retain Saturn owners.

dodgeman07

Does anyone know how many jobs this is going to cost? I'd be interested in seeing a total count on lost jobs: dealerships, manufacturing, service, marketing, etc.

This has got to be the end of 50,000 or more good jobs. Sad to see it happen but maybe other manufacturers can pick up some of the displaced workers.

stever

The Washington Post is saying 13,000 jobs are at risk, but you have to wonder if that includes suppliers and the like. link.

tidester

It's no longer theoretical. Perhaps we should change the topic to something like "GM Dumped Saturn - Now what?"

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

kernick

The Earth will stop spinning? and without that centrifugal force, gravity will pull down on everything harder - (weight will double?); therefore you need to go increase the psi in your tires immediately!

I'd guess what's going to happen will be very similar to what happened when other auto-makers went out of business, or when other companies and industries fail. And life will go on.

andre1969

"GM Dumped Saturn - Now what?"

It means that the next time there's a local orphan car tour, something normally reserved for the likes of DeSotos, Hudsons, Studebakers, Nashes, etc, I'll suddenly start seeing Saturns...along with Plymouths, Pontiacs, and Oldsmobiles.

anythngbutgm

This is a good idea IMO. With "Now what" being the discussion as to where those buyers might go for future purchases. My understanding of Saturn buyers was they were not ones to normally shop Government Motors vehicles but Saturn managed to get them through the door with a no haggle pricing structure and the promise of being a different company.

Like Olds, I bet these buyers are not going to just pick up and move over to Buick or Chevy, so will they migrate to makers like Mazda? Subaru? Hyundai? Are they going to join the growing ranks of Honda owners or even Toyota?

Hmmmm...

bfamily

The irony is that, except for the originals, all the Saturn cars are re-badged Chevies, Buicks, GMC's. Like it or not these Saturn buyers did move over to GM.

andre1969

I remember reading that when Olds went away, the biggest beneficiary of that was actually Hyundai, of all brands!

As for Saturn, I don't think there are really that many buyers to worry about anymore. Here are the sales figures for the first 6 months of 2009...

Outlook: 8,237 (down 36.9% from first 6 months of 2008)
Vue: 17,985 (down 60.7%...however, wasn't this one off the market for a few months to make way for the redesign?)
Astra: 4,210 (down 3.6%)
Aura: 10,661 (down 67.6%)
Sky: 1,659 (down 70.6%)

And there were a few Ions and Relays left to account for 24 more sales. So, a total of 42,776 over the course of 6 months.

I could actually see Outlook buyers going to GMC, Chevy, or perhaps Buick, as all three sell the same basic vehicle. The Saturn cars aren't so vastly different anymore, so a lot of buyers just might not care. Ditto the Vue...isn't the new Equinox basically the same thing? And I'm sure that GMC will get a version as well. I think Aura's are mainly getting dumped into rental fleets these days, and I'm sure that the Malibu would serve just as well. Personally, I prefer the style of the Aura though, and would have bought one before I'd buy a Malibu.

However, all these models do have worthy alternatives at Ford, Honda, Toyota, and Nissan...and a lot of people bought Saturns not for the cars themselves, but for the buying experience. So GM probably will lose a lot of these customers. I've heard it said that Saturns are cars for people who don't like cars, but I've also heard the same said about Toyota...so maybe Toyota will be the biggest beneficiary here?

It got to the point that the Sky and Astra were the only models that were fairly unique. I could see Mazda benefiting the most here, as Astra buyers go for the Mazda3, and Sky buyers opt for the Miata.

michaellno

...and a lot of people bought Saturns not for the cars themselves, but for the buying experience.

Ding, ding, ding ... we have a winner!

Having bought 4 new Saturns in the past 7 years, I can tell you this is the number one reason we went with the brand. The cars (and SUVs) are really nothing special - well, the polymer panels on my L300 and my daughters ION are pretty neat - but the treatment we received from the dealership was something unique.

Ah, well. Guess I'll be going to my local Chevrolet dealer for warranty issues on the wife's '08 VUE. If nothing else, it saves me about 35-40 minutes on the drive.

Will I miss Saturn? No, not particularly. Will I stay a loyal GM customer? Depends on what my needs are for my next vehicle.

andre1969

I have an aunt and uncle who have been Saturn fans for awhile. My uncle bought an S-series back in 1995 or 1996, and I think he got around 240-250,000 miles or more out of it. They also had a Vue, and now have an Outlook. I'll be curious to see what their next vehicle is, now that Saturn's going away.

Oh, and one of my cousins had a 2nd-gen S-series until just a few months ago. He was out of work, and had the idea of trying to work for Saturn, using his personal car to shuttle customers around who had their cars in for service. He also had around 240-250,000 miles on the car by this time, and his thought was that if the customers got to ride in his high-mileage Saturn, it would be good PR for them, showing just how long would last. Well, he never got the job, although I thought it was an interesting idea. And the engine pretty much "blew up" (his words...I don't know the details) not long after. So, maybe it wouldn't have been a good idea to shuttle customers around in it, after all.

Honestly though, at that mileage, I'd say he got his money's worth out of the car. My cousin is also pretty negligent when it comes to caring for mechanical things, so the fact that it lasted to 240-250K miles in spite of him is a true testament to its durability!

stever

"Tennessee Senator Bob Corker released this statement to Volunteer TV, saying quote "We're very disappointed and know that this decision will affect many people across the country. Hopefully someone else will be interested in the brand and the dealer network that comes with it."

Sen. Corker lament Saturn demise (volunteertv.com)

Corker was one of the most vocal skeptics of the automaker bailouts, is a union buster, and didn't much like Cash for Clunkers either. The GM/Saturn Spring Hill plant now making the Chevrolet Traverse is to be idled Nov. 25 when they move production to Michigan. Chicago Tribune

I guess he's getting his wish.

nippononly

Blecch - an '03 Ion isn't exactly in the same league as DeSotos and Studes......

nippononly

Like it or not these Saturn buyers did move over to GM.

After 1995, the original promise of "a different kind of car company" was dead. Any buyers after that who didn't know they were just getting a rebadged Chevy or Ameri-fied Opel were just ignoring the reality.

andre1969

After 1995, the original promise of "a different kind of car company" was dead. Any buyers after that who didn't know they were just getting a rebadged Chevy or Ameri-fied Opel were just ignoring the reality.

I remember MT or C&D doing a review of the 1996 S-series, and they said something along the lines of it being redundant, considering that GM now had a "much improved Cavalier" :surprise: I think that's probably the nicest thing I've ever seen a magazine print about a Cavalier! Doesn't say much for the 2nd-gen S-series, though. :sick:

nippononly

the second-gen 'S' was crap, and the Ion was even worse.

Just goes to show how quickly you can completely destroy a brand with really bad product. The "rejuvenation models" like Aura and Astra were really good cars, but they were a decade too late, and by then all the buyers were gone. Never to return.

Mr_Shiftright

Saturn was a car with no identity. How can you build brand equity solely around "a buying experience", when the product is not in the least bit memorable?

Saturn was possibly the first "generic" car brand. It was like Long's own label instead of Advil.

anythngbutgm

I remember when Saturn first appeared and they were identified by the plastic body panels and cruddy but durable and fuel efficient engines. . I also remember their cars were touted as having the most American content of any car at the time. Something like 99% of the car was American except for only 2 components (don't remember which). I also remember there was infighting between GM and the Saturn brand because it was becoming so successful that it was stealing customers from Government Motors other brands at the time. And we all know that can't happen to brands like Chevy being outdone by a little startup like Saturn... So corporate arrogance prevailed (once again) and Saturn was sucked up and became just another division of Government Motors.

I'll never forget the C&D writeup on the then new ION. "We waited 14 years for this?"

pbconspiracy

I'm sure this will affect GM's volume. I'd think people cross-shop Saturn not with Chevy, but with Honda. Really sad to see Saturn go. The fact that this is happening is a true reflection of the inept leadership at GM for the past 20 years.

stever

On the other hand, GM won't have to compete with a Saturn that's owned by another company, as Dieselone pointed out over in Do You Favor A Government Loan To The Detroit 3?.

dodgeman07

I'm sorry to see Saturn go also. The concept was, and is, a good one but their lineup was weak for too many years. They finally have a good lineup for their curtain call.

A strong case could be made for keeping Saturn and dropping Buick but the growing Chinese market likes Buick so Saturn had to go.

It's interesting to note however that the Saturn Sky and Vue will be with in 2011 as Buicks!

michaellno

The Washington Post is saying 13,000 jobs are at risk, but you have to wonder if that includes suppliers and the like.

My understanding is that the 13,000 figure is just the employees from the dealerships that will have to close. Averages out to about 35-40 people from each dealer.

Not sure that any suppliers will be affected, since Saturn didn't have any unique products - the VUE lives on as the Equinox, SRX and GMC Terrain, the Aura as the Malibu and the Outlook as the Traverse, Acadia and Enclave.

stever

Maybe GM is waiting for former eBay head Meg Whitman to win the California governorship ... and then change the dealer franchise laws out there....

GM's LaNeve: eBay Venture Postponed, Not Canceled (AutoObserver)

dispencer2

I'd never driven a Saturn until a week ago when I rented an Aura in Baltimore. I can't understand why people couldn't tell it was owned by GM. There is a GM badge on the lower fender, the radio and other components are solidly GM. I thought I was in an Impala except that the Aura is much nicer inside than an Impala. I was really impressed -I would buy one in a heartbeat over an Impala (I had an 06 Impala). Unfortunately it has a jerky transmission - so did my Impala. My 09 Cobalt transmission is much smoother.

berri

I don't know if its the transmission or the computer programing, but this jointly developed Ford/GM tranny seems a bit touchy in both company's vehicles.

I never understood how this Penske thing would work out. Seems to me that having a middleman would have inevitably meant that the new Saturn would be handicapped in pricing, kind of like a mom and pop store using a wholesaler versus Wal-Mart buying direct.

stever

The middleman setup seems to have worked out nicely for Gulf States Toyota, and especially for Southeast Toyota (Southeast is a big part of JMFE, the 18th-largest privately held company in the US).

berri

That's because they have a monopoly on Toyota sales in those states. When I lived in their territory I didn't buy Toyota because I didn't like their attitude nor being ripped off. You could actually do better buying a Toyota out of their region and driving it back. People were fools putting up with their excess mark-ups and unnneeded dealer prep crap and options (back then at least). If they stopped shopping there, they'd end up getting better deals. Hopefully D3 keeps improving and forces Southeat to treat customers better. Besides, Toyota isn't the premium vehicle it used to be nowadays anyway.

hpmctorque

The idea was that the power was in the distribution of vehicles rather than in the manufacturing.

I don't think that your mom and pop versus Wal-Mart analogy is appropriate here, given the size of the Penske Auto Group, and, I presume, future growth plans. The auto companies, and respective independent dealer networks, currently include the middleman function. As I see it, the middleman function would not have been added under the Penske plan, because it already exists.

I think Penske's plan for Saturn was okay conceptually. The deal probably unraveled for multiple reasons, including the probability that the risk-reward was too favorable to Penske.

charla1

The 2010 Chevy Equinox will give Toyota, Honda,Ford a good run for the money. Good looks, great interior and features, excellent gas mileage. I know of 3 Vue owners who either already have, or are now waiting for their new Equinox to be delivered. The good reviews was the reason they became interested.

tstuckert

Hi

I agree about the Equinox. I would LOVE to trade in my 08 Vue on an Equinox, but no one will give me squat for the Vue. I wanted to trade it in Dec 08 (I bought it in Jan 08) but even then it was too late. I wish I wouldn't have bought a Saturn. Not only has the trade in and resale values of my Vue gone into the dumper, but my local dealer also closed and now I have to drive an hour to the nearest dealer for warranty work.

ts

hpmctorque

"Renault's decision effectively killed Saturn."

Who would have ever imagined that Saturn's survival would have depended on Renault?

michaellno

but my local dealer also closed and now I have to drive an hour to the nearest dealer for warranty work.

The closest GM dealer is an hour away?

All Saturn dealers will eventually close or be repurposed to another brand or simply sell used cars. You should be getting a letter from GM at some point to explain your options with regards to warranty work.

I, too, have an '08 VUE (and an '06 ION and an '03 L300). The VUE is the only one still in warranty, and I'll probably be able to take it to the Chevrolet dealer in my town. The closest Saturn dealer is a 45 minute drive for me.

andre1969

Isn't the 2008 Vue essentially the same thing as the new Equinox? If so, you might as well just hang onto it and enjoy it...I doubt the Equinox is really going to give you anything over the Vue, other than a brand name that's still in existence. My guess is that any Chevy dealer that carries Chevy or GMC should still be able to service it. At least, I think GMC is getting a version of the Equinox/Vue.