General Motors discussions

PF_Flyer

Ran across this news item yesterday..

GM develops diesel-like gasoline engines

MILFORD, Mich. -General Motors Corp. says it intends to improve the mileage of its gasoline engines by making them run more like diesel engines.

Although many automakers are pursuing the same strategy - notably Honda - GM became the first company Friday to demonstrate the technology in running concept cars.

I think we're about due for some kind of fuel efficiency breakthrough on the gasoline engine, so why not homogenous charge compression ignition (HCCI)?

But you can read more about what I think about innovation on the Alternate Route

gsemike

So I saw a new Vue in a aprking lot yesterday. It's OK. I'd probably put in that mix with the CRV, RAV4, Santa Fe, Escape where they're all kind of the same.

The one I saw was I guess a lower end model and had blackout trim on the lower valance. From a distance it just disappeared. It looked like it was missing a piece. The back reminded me of a Kia Sorrento. The interior looked like it was pretty good (I was just looking through the window. The tires also looked smallish against the slab sides but I'm sure as you go up the range, the tires get nicer.

What is the story with the car? Is it all new? Where is it built? How does it fit into Saturn's new image as the Domestic European? Should the car maybe have been dropped in favor or an improved Equinox/Torrent?

The car looks like it deserves to be in the mix with those mentioned above. Nothing is really extraordinary and I didn't see anything on the Vue that raises the bar. Personally, I'm liking the little but of curviess that Hyundai is injecting into this market.

1487

"As for side impact bags, it is nice to see after all these years, safety matters with GM, well when they have to do so, they will -- not quite the same thing, is it? I was looking a row of Monte Carlos, one day, and there was not a single one with side air bags. Now, if you do not desire the bags, then it is a good thing. But if people are considering safety in a buying decision, isn't it a bit behind the times? "

Monte carlo isnt made anymore and I dont even think it had side airbags. The Accord didnt have 6 standard airbags until 2006 model year. Camry still doesnt have standard stability control on any model.

Lets try and keep the facts straight.

as for stick shift cars, the overwhelming majority of cars sold (even compacts) are sold with autos. The Cobalt with auto is quite a bit faster than the Civic. Thats what more hp and torque will do usually.

m1miata

Well if it is the close relative of the Opel Antara, as is others now in the line up, I don't know why they just don't call Saturn an Opel, or make the same look exactly instead of all the re-badges. There is another variant of same as the Suzuki XL7. And there is the Daewoo Winstorm, Holden Captivia, and Chevy Equinox. This version of the Theta platform looks pretty good, and competes with the Honda CR-V & RAV-4. The car/SUV is built in Mexico, along with the HHR which also built there. An American Revolution. Is this a better choice than a RAV-4 or CR-V and all the rest, is the question?
L

1487

"The car looks like it deserves to be in the mix with those mentioned above. Nothing is really extraordinary and I didn't see anything on the Vue that raises the bar."

Vue is very competitive with the other small utes in this class. Import loving Dan Neil gave i a good review and said the interior is better than the Rav4 or CR-V and he would be right. I sat in one a few weeks ago and the interior reminds you of a VW product.

I thought it was common knowledge that the Vue was the same as the Opel Antara.

1487

"Is it a dirtier engine, or did GM not have the engineering time/resources to develop the emissions controls? Lots of powerful cars are PZEV, etc. Did something change (laws or the engine itself) that caused this not to be problem in the previous SS?"

MT reported that the engine could not meet upcoming emissions requirements and GM wasnt going to invest money into upgrading such a low volume engine. Since the 2L turbo exists I supposed the 2L supercharged engine became unnecessary.

1487

"I was just trying to clarifying to you that the Cobalt competes against the 06+ Civic currently and not the 01-05 model Civic thats all(Iwas trying to point out)because you brought up before that the 05 Cobalt has more features than the 01-05 Civic and that the 01-05 Civic has dull styling as well as the Cobalt. "

again, I am fully aware of when the civic came out. My point was when the Cobalt came out in 2004 it was not totally outclassed as Mitia and others keep suggesting. I do understand that the Civic was new in 2005 and in terms of style and features the new civic was far better than the old one. Whenever a competiting car comes out afterwards you can rest assured the newer car will advance the segment a little bit.

1487

"Yeah but the Civic is 1 model year older than the Cobalt so to me thats not a lot of difference. In my opinion your making it sound like the Cobalt was on its 5th year of the same bodystyle when a new gen Civic came out."

civic is better at things that the old car was already better at, such as fuel economy. Aside from that and futuristic styling I'm not quite sure how the civic has the cobalt beat. The EX model does have a few features like optional navigation. Cobalt still has more power, more space, onstar, 6 CD changer, leather heated seats, remote start, etc.

m1miata

Well you should keep your facts straight, though I doublt you'll be graded on it in the morning. Fact is the Monte had the side bags as an option, and standard side bags are going to show on GM cars only after the competition offers them for a year or two earlier. The old let's follow again theme applies.

Yes, the world knows that in USA people prefer auto transmissions. This however doesn't mean everyone wants an automatic. With a four banger, the most bang is with a stick. And with a GOOD stick transmission, you can even have fun with it. Depends on the stop and go traffic in your area. That said, in Euorope they have heavy traffic + manual transmission use as the majority of all vehicles sold.

And yes, I agree, the Cobalt is faster to the gas station.
L

louiswei

I don't need to compare a 1999 Civic to a 1999 Park Ave because my point is if I can buy a brand new Civic I wouldn't by a 2 or 3 year old Buick.

This is not intended to be an apple to apple comparison from the very beginning.

m1miata

The Antara appears to lower blood pressure too. See link
I like that name Opel more so than Saturn. So how is the gas mileage compared to the competition?
L

m1miata

Since you have all those facts straight, I will go to the source for this question. Isn't remote starting a vehicle illegal in most states? Your car would not have a driver inside while the engine is working. My Honda has a remote down for the windows, which is useful to cool the car a bit before entry, or to throw something in the window before entry to the car.

just trying to be helpful,
Loren

gsemike

"My point was when the Cobalt came out in 2004 it was not totally outclassed as Mitia and others keep suggesting."

If GM failed to see the advances that were just around the corner and just benchmarked to competitors that were coming to the end of their product cycles, they dropped the ball again.

gsemike

Technically alot of stuff you see everyday is illegal. Remote start is handy to some but if you really want it, it's $150 aftermarket including installation.

lemonhater

Don't think so. It is a common thing where I live in order to heat the car up faster. It personally wouldn't cause me to change brands, but it isn't a bad thing in the states where it get cold in the winter. That being sad if I lived in the south forget it.

stever

Idling is illegal in ~42 states. Not good for air quality and not good for your catalytic converter or exhaust system either, from what I've read.

cooterbfd

This is not intended to be an apple to apple comparison from the very beginning.

Fine. But what it WAS, was a comparison of fuel economy, in relative terms. If I want to, I'll go out and buy a brand new Lucerne w/ the 3800 eng. If my experience tells me anything, I'll STILL get my 22-24 mpg in mixed driving, and 31-33.5 mpg on a long highway trip, and have gobs more room than the Civic.

cooterbfd

Not to mention a colossal waste of gas.

Where I live in RI, it can get as cold in the morning as anywhere (just not as often). Nothing is better for a car than to start it up, let it idle for 15-20 seconds, put it in gear and go. You'll have hot air in 2-3 minutes, and a warm cabin shortly thereafter.

louiswei

If you can afford a brand new Buick, sure go ahead. But the whole discussion was started by someone suggesting that instead of buying a new compact, he (or she) rather get a 2 or 3 year old Buick.

I personally would never buy a new Buick due to its depreciation rate. A one-year-old will be the best buy in Buick's case.

colloquor

Idling actually extends the warm-up period, and is very hard on the engine, and catalytic converter. Although I know a number of people are not so blessed, all of this discussion is moot if you have a heated garage (and, actually "use it" instead of a space for all of your "stuff).

nwng

around here, a new civic would costs about the same as a less than 2yr old lacrosse

dave8697

My used Buick came with a block heater as an option in '96. On a typical 5 to 10 below zero morning in Feb, I can pop the hood and put my hand on the engine cover and it's warm. Get in and start it and engine temp hits 100 F in the time I scrape the windows. 150 F coolant temp comes in about a half mile and by then the heat is coming out, the windshield is clear, and the heated seats are getting warm. Less severe on engine than remote start. I always have to remember to plug it in and unplug it though. I sometimes have to kneel in snow to unplug it. I use a 15 F degree cutoff as to when I use it and the electric for the 10-20 nights a year that go that low can't be much.

chuckhoy

The only reason why I have remote start with my new Outlook is because it came in an option package. No way around it. I have used it once just to see if it worked. Never again. I think it is a waste of gas and I can suffer through 5 min of a hot car. This is probably how a lot of people get remote start. It comes in an option package with the other stuff you really want.

tlong

MT reported that the engine could not meet upcoming emissions requirements and GM wasnt going to invest money into upgrading such a low volume engine.

That surprises me a bit, the implication is that somewhere some emissions rules have tightened. Is that the case? Is it nationwide or just some of those "green" states?

stever

My cars lived outdoors for 20 winters in Anchorage. If it was predicted to be ~10 degrees or colder overnight, I'd plug the block heater into my (inside switched) outside outlet and flip it on for an hour while I made my coffee. An hour was plenty in my experience and keeping the block heater on more that was just a waste of money.

gsemike

One thing with the remote start is that if people are using it to get the AC kicking before they get into the car, I was always told that turing off and starting the car with the AC turned on would be bad for the compressor. Is that still the case? Is the general throwing you a $150 accessory in hopes of charging you a grand dow the road for an AC overhaul?

chuckhoy

Not with a modern car. If you notice, when you turn the key almost every system in the car powers down while the car is starting. This includes the radio, dash lights, HVAC and a few other things. This is done to prevent the situation you describe from happening. To test it you turn the key halfway so the radio, AC, whatever is on without the car running. Then turn it to start the car. Most everything should shut down.

Older cars are a different story. Not sure how old it has to be.

lemko

Shoot, a 2 or 3 year-old Buick is a lot more car than a new Civic. Hmmm! I have enough money to buy a cheap little new car or a more substantial, more luxurious used car. The nicer older car wins in my book.

andre1969

even with cars that I've owned from the darkest periods of automotive history, like the mid-late 70's and early-mid 80's, I've found that letting the car warm up is just a waste of time and resources. In fast idle, my '79 NYer and '85 Silverado are revving fast enough that they'll peel out in my gravel driveway if I don't take my foot off the brake gently.

There's a steep hill about a quarter mile from my house. I can practically let the Chrysler's fast idle pull the car out onto my street, and down the road to that hill, and it's strong enough to pull the car over the hill at about 25 mph, without ever hitting the gas pedal. And it's a 30 mph speed limit, so it's not like it's particularly dangerous to do so.

I remember back in the day, seeing my parents and grandparents let those 70's and 80's cars warm up for 5 minutes or more on a cold day. Heck, I even learned that habit when I started driving in 1987! You could almost let the car warm up for 5 minutes, hop in, and it would still try to stall out at the most inopportune moment. It's amazing to think how much resources we wasted back then, not to mention stress on the car letting it idle like that.

Nowadays though, if it's a cold day, like around freezing or below, I might let the car warm up a minute before taking off.

gsemike

For my station car (hoopty to some) I have a 93 LeSabre. On the cold cold morings, that car will rev to about 4 or 5 grand. If there is any slickness on the road, it's dangerous to drive it like that. I have to let it warm, but often when I'm inside the house and I hear it screaming I think, "maybe today is the day that it throws a piston through the hood". Hasn't happened yet.

andre1969

Shoot, a 2 or 3 year-old Buick is a lot more car than a new Civic. Hmmm! I have enough money to buy a cheap little new car or a more substantial, more luxurious used car. The nicer older car wins in my book.


I think with me it's just starting to become more of a depreciation issue than anything else. If I'm in the mood for something like a Buick, I might try to pick up one that's a year or two old. For instance, a local dealership group has a nice looking 2006 Lucerne CXL with a V-8, sunroof, and about 14,000 miles for around $22K. I'd imagine that was a $32K or more car new. And I'll admit, I've been tempted. I'm just forcing myself to stay off that website and not look at it. It's green, too, and I'm a sucker for green!

Right now though, I just don't want a car payment. If what I currently have starts getting too unreliable, or too expensive to keep running, then I'll look into replacing it.

If I'm in the mood for something smaller and more fuel efficient though, and something with lower depreciation, like a Civic or Corolla (I do like the Civic, but don't really care for the Corolla), I'd probably just go with a new one.

bumpy

The nicer older car wins in my book.

Not everyone reads from that book. Some folks would rather have the warranty, and not feel at the mercy of whatever the previous owner did or didn't do to the car. And, to be honest, a 2007 Civic is a nicer car than a 2004 LeSabre.

robbieg

Yes. However, I didn't get a good look at it.

michaellno

The XE trim level has the blacked out front and rear bumpers; in the XR trim level, they are body colored.

The XE, if FWD, has the 2.4L 4-cylinder in it; if the XE is AWD, then it has the 3.5L V6. The XR trim level (both FWD and AWD) have the 3.6L V6 with 257 HP. Both V6's come with a 6-speed automatic.

Our XR is so much better than the '04 VUE we had, in terms of refinement. Our last tank netted us just over 21MPG, which isn't bad considering the EPA numbers of 16 and 22.

bumpy

If what I currently have starts getting too unreliable, or too expensive to keep running, then I'll look into replacing it.

You have enough vehicles to drive a different one every day of the week. They'll last for ten thousand years at that pace.

bumpy

Is it nationwide or just some of those "green" states?

Nationwide, I think. One of those EPA Tier Bin things I'm too lazy to look up.

andre1969

For my station car (hoopty to some) I have a 93 LeSabre. On the cold cold morings, that car will rev to about 4 or 5 grand. If there is any slickness on the road, it's dangerous to drive it like that. I have to let it warm, but often when I'm inside the house and I hear it screaming I think, "maybe today is the day that it throws a piston through the hood". Hasn't happened yet.

Wow, that sounds pretty evil...I didn't think newer, fuel-injected cars would do that? I know on a warm day like today, my Intrepid will momentarily spike to about 1400 rpm when I first turn it on, but then settle down to about 900 rpm while it's warming up. In gear, idling at a stop, such as at a traffic light, it drops down to around 500 when it's fully warmed up.

Now my older vehicles don't have tachs, so I don't know how fast they're revving, but even on a warm day like today, my pickup or NYer would definitely kick up some gravel on fast idle! The Intrepid would probably just sit there until I gave it some gas. It's amazing, in some ways, how far cars have come.

louiswei

Sorry lemko, I'll take the Honda Civic Si over any Buick (yes, those Supers are included) in any given day with less than a heartbeat. As matter of back, it's a no brainer to me.

lemko

There are plenty of Buicks I would take over any Honda. Even the plainest, most basic LaCrosse is a much prettier car than a Civic. Heck, I'd take my plain jane 1968 Buick Special Deluxe over 95% of the new cars out there.

lweiss

Check this out from Business Week, a review of the Buick Enclave:
http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/aug2007/bw20070824_951944.htm?campaign- _id=yhoo

Thing is that the EPA city mileage of 16 is about the same as the Ford Explorer- so I am still confused as what the deal is. In these days of high fuel prices (and projections to be higher again next Summer), I still can't understand the buzz that these crossovers from GM are such an awesome advance in vehicle design- am I missing something? I guess that GM covets the profit of the luxury crossovers, but I can't imagine these gas hogs getting GM back into the mainstream of what North American drivers are looking for these days.

xrunner2

There are plenty of Buicks I would take over any Honda. Even the plainest, most basic LaCrosse is a much prettier car than a Civic.

Personal taste in styling opinions of course. Saw a picture of new Lacrosse in Oct Car and Driver on page 59. The front end reminds me of some 90's era Korean
car(s).

Civic is in totally different class than Buick. 2-door Civic SI has exceptionally good styling (opinion of course). Test drove one and liked it. Handled well, shifter was great and digital speedo on top of dash made sense.

Car and driver thought the braking on Buick Enclave was just so-so (page 58) and gas mileage was not too good. Also, car seemed kind of slow at 9.0 seconds to sixty. But, then again, age group of people usually buying Buicks like to take it slow and easy.

Saw new Enclave parked nose to nose with Rendezvous in Depot parking lot recently. Enclave good improvement in package and style over Rendezvous.

chuckhoy

That article made little sense. They started out by blasting it on gas mileage (although they never mentioned what the others they compared it to get) and then gushed about the interior and ride quality. Then they bashed it for being slow. Who goes around drag racing a minivan anyway?

They compared it to cars that cost thousands more and said it was as good as the compition in the things in this segment that matter (seating comfort, interior refinement, ride quality) and not so good in things that don't matter as much (drag racing, marginal difference in mpg)

I don't see how 16-17 mpg in city driving is bad for a vehicle of this size. Minivans get 18/25 or so. They are about the same.

andre1969

I don't see how 16-17 mpg in city driving is bad for a vehicle of this size. Minivans get 18/25 or so. They are about the same.

I don't think 16-17 city mileage is bad for something that bulky either. That's about what my buddy's Xterra gets. Now if it's true that the Outlook/et al with the 3.6 do 0-60 in about 9 seconds, the Xterra would probably blow them off in a drag race. But if you drive it like that, you won't be getting 16-17 mpg :P

1487

'Well you should keep your facts straight, though I doublt you'll be graded on it in the morning. Fact is the Monte had the side bags as an option, and standard side bags are going to show on GM cars only after the competition offers them for a year or two earlier. The old let's follow again theme applies. "

All GM cars have standard side airbags for 2008. Gm also has stability control standard on more non luxury models than Toyota or Nissan. Hyundai has them all beat when it comes to making ESC standard.

lemko

Heck, I really like the new look of the LaCrosse. Heck, who needs a Lucerne when you can get an awesome LaCrosse Super - VentiPorts and all!

As for older Korean cars, I like them. Who but the Koreans would have the guts to build something as bizarre as the Kia Amanti? It looks like a LeSabre with a Mercedes E-Class front end clip with a Chrysler grille. Cool! I also liked the recent Hyundai XG300 and XG350. Looks like a mini-Bentley from the rear 3/4 view. Heck, even the previous generation Sonata and Optima were neat. The oft-ridiculed Daewoos were also attractive.

Trouble is, Hyundai-Kia is wimping-out and building Accord and Camry clones via the new Sonata and Azera.

1487

"Is that still the case? Is the general throwing you a $150 accessory in hopes of charging you a grand dow the road for an AC overhaul? "

yes thats it. GM true purpose is for you to break your AC and force you to fix it. I know you think that only GM is pushing the "gimmick" of remote start but other manufacturers offer it as well. In fact, the camry offers it now.

1487

the author of that article has to be biased, stupid or both. Most V6 crossovers get about 17mpg. Check out mileage on Edge, Pilot, Highlander, CX-9, etc. What a moron. Typical double standard media review.

1487

"Since you have all those facts straight, I will go to the source for this question. Isn't remote starting a vehicle illegal in most states?"

I have never heard of anything like this in my life. If thats the case you better run and tell Toyota, Ford, Dodge, etc. since they all offer remote start.

Do you have a problem with every feature offered by GM? Or only those that Honda doesnt offer?

gsemike

"I know you think that only GM is pushing the "gimmick" of remote start but other manufacturers offer it as well."

WHEN WILL YOU STOP PUTTING WORDS IN OTHER PEOPLE'S MOUTHS???? Show me where I said that GM is the only one pushing this? I said that it can be had in the aftermarket for $150 installed so it would not be a big deal if a car had it or not.

1487

"If GM failed to see the advances that were just around the corner and just benchmarked to competitors that were coming to the end of their product cycles, they dropped the ball again."

actually the fielded a car that was better equipped, more powerful and more refined than the majority of the competition at the time. Prior to the Si coming out the SS/SC was the hands down leader in performance in the class although the Neon SRT-4 was also a good performer. The Si came close but still was unable to surpass the SS/SC model.

Not quite the same as dropping the ball. Still waiting for an exhaustive, verifiable, objective list of Cobalt faults from you. Since the car is so bad you should have no problem producing such a list. criticising a car for styling (in a segment full of plain cars) isnt going to cut it though.