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Comments
We've already established that FROM NOW ON Lincolns will have a signature style (see the MKR) and 100% unique sheetmetal (see the MKS) as well as unique powertrains (see the 3.7L and 3.5L TwinForce). Complaining about what happened in the past is useless - they're going in the right direction now - finally - and that's what really matters.
But all of them do a bit more than just put a modified grill in the same grill hole, and add some more chrome on the same panels and interior. Yhat's what killed the LT while the others will go on. It was just too, too pretend to get a reasonable level of respect.
Note to akirby: sometimes it sounds as if Ford's bold moves were all your own decisions, the way you defend Ford/Lincoln moves as always rational/reasonable. You always seem to bark that, given all the givens, they made the right decisiond, and those grousing about it are just a few isolated fanatics.
A reasonable person can disagree. Especially in light of Ford's continuing-to-shrink-in-double-digits sales, even while GM's sales increase. That Lincoln has increased sales is great, but it is largely due to the MKX, and the fact that Lincoln sales had declined so precipitously in previous years that MKX sales could actually make a double digit increase possible.
Lincoln (and Ford in general) made poor planning decisions from 2001-2006. Lincoln was left with no budget and no leadership and drifted into and back out of PAG. They chose a RWD mustang platform that couldn't be used for sedans and chose a FWD based D3 platform while ignoring the RWD V8 sedan market. They totally ignored the B car segment and tried to compete on price rather then features and options. And the bean counters were in control, not the designers and engineers.
All this is water under the bridge now, and the things I see Ford doing under Mulally and Fields are all the things that they should have done back in 2001. Unfortunately it will take at least 4 years to get the new platforms and vehicles in showrooms. In the meantime, they're treading water and trying to remain afloat.
Yes, the Mark LT should have had a unique interior and powertrains to compete head to head with Caddy. But I don't think Ford can afford to make that kind of investment on such a low volume niche vehicle. And yes - they could share with the Navigator - maybe - but it's still more investment. So the question is would you rather see a nice looking badge engineered F150 or nothing at all?
Once Ford is profitable again they can devote more investment to lower volume vehicles. And they've already declared unique sheetmetal and powertrains for Lincoln with a bold styling direction - plus the announcement of a new RWD sedan platform that will be the basis for the new flagship models.
For the record I think there are areas where Ford simply screwed up. Not having a manumatic shifter or stability control on the Fusion. Not having electric steering wheel adjustment tied to the memory in the MKZ and not having an electrically controlled seatback adjustment in all CD3 cars with power seats. Their fuel economy sucks across the board thanks to Billy's focus on emissions rather then FE.
Those are things that matter to customers - not whether the Edge and MKX share a side profile or whether the Mark LT was a badge engineered F150.
My point is that if you're a customer-focussed company, you dont do things like the Zephyr, eg, which was a one year model that did not measure up even to the ';standards' of Lincoln and they knew it and had v2 in the pipe even as they were selling v1. And I know I dont speak for anyone who bought a Zephyr, but I know how I'd feel if I just plunked down $30,000 for a car and the company comes out a few months later with a much-improved version for year 2 and an acknowledgement that basically, yeah, the one I bought was really a slap-dash tossed-together salad so we could sell something to somebody while we got the real car built. I'd be torqued for sure. And how many Aviator owners have a bad taste over the multitude of problems that vehicle has had?
As I've posted N times, it's about respect for the product and respect for the consumers. Successful companies have it and reap the success they deserve, and Ford tells people that prop-rods and a "luxury" SUV using a 12 year old body are good enough.
Last time I checked the sales figures and financial reports, they seemed to be wrong.
No one will give you respect until you have self-respect.
Should Lincoln have been put into a positon where it had to release the Zephyr before it was really ready or a rebadged F150 with almost no interior differences? Of course not! Ford treated Lincoln as a red headed stepchild for years both from a funding standpoint and a management standpoint.
Now if the MKS was just a mildly re-engineered Taurus with the same engine and interior and lots of shared sheetmetal - I'd say Lincoln was doomed. But it's not. And we won't see the real Lincoln until the Huntsman platform makes it to production in 2010 or so. The MKS and a restyled MKZ (I'm thinking more unique sheetmetal and a MKS interior along with the 3.7L V6) next year should hold them over until then.
Or should they try a transitional move, where the Lincoln products are built up then the sell-off happens a piece at a time?
Don't expect anything radical until the new RWD Huntsman platform arrives (jointly developed with Ford Australia) with a TC replacement and new flagship for Lincoln. Hopefully they'll be profitable enough by then to invest the necessary cash to get Lincoln back into the game.
What a disappointment when I went to the Lincoln dealer and they told me the TC is being discontinued. They are already out. All they had was the alphabet named MLZ or whatever - who cares - I don't care enough to remember the initials. Why would I spend a small fortune on a mid-size Lincoln when I could easily buy a Taurus or Sable?
Lincoln had nothing to offer in the Luxury sedan segment except used TCs! Is something wrong with this picture? One has no choice but to look to the Cadillac DTS (more alphabet soup) or perhaps go down in size to a Taurus.
I think metal is probably the key... when people buy Lincoln, they want a big car. Not a little car with a Lincoln decal and a big price. Lincoln is about size... luxury comes from size. This may be politically incorrect, the Ford Mustang with its V-8 is politically incorrect. So is a behemoth 18 1/2 foot long TC. But maybe there is still a place for that. If not, then I suspect there is no place left for Lincoln.
So after they kill the TC with nothing to replace it, then they can realize they want it back and do a Chevy Camaro and spend 5 years trying to bring to get it back in production? Lincoln "killing" the Town Car seems to me more like laying down to die.
:confuse:
Ford may be desperate but they're not stupid!
If I had to replace our TC, I'd look for a low mile '03 while being tempted to buy a low mile '04 Jag XJ8L.
Actually, the current Town Car debuted in 1980
Do you really think a 6.2L will go in the MarK Zephyr?
Sorry but Lincoln can't afford to just "get by" for the next 3 ~ infinity years waiting on a new vehicle. If they won't have any competitive product for 3 years...
Don't get me wrong, it would be great if Ford can take the monies earned from the AM sell (as well as the other sales if they go through) to prop up Lincoln, but they are drowning sooo much will they actually invest in Lincoln. Again, look at it from did they learn from their vast number of mistakes and are they making the right decisions. Many on this board stated they are/were potential customers, but when you have product no one really asked for, no one really wants, letting good product die, Ford/Lincoln pulling a GM and saying "Wait until...Next year...N years from now...", the alphabet soup name changes & the reasoning behind them, they moved on. You have to question the logic & sincerity behind the moves. For example (not trying to beat Zephyr/MKZ to death but it is a very good example) I agree with most that knowingly putting out a half-[non-permissible content removed] effort car just to get a vehicle out there, into dealers hands like you state, knowing you have the "correct" model in the pipeline is not a smart move. Remember that saying about first impressions? This was a brand-new vehicle, not an update, and to Edsel-ize it, that reflects very badly on a company. Why should I give them a chance if this is how they think of me, a potential buyer? Why should I buy the product if the best they are willing to give me is second best? And blaming / using the dealers as an excuse for the half-effort is a cop-out.
The MKX is selling nicely and the MKZ is soldiering along at modest volumes but minimal incentives so they're still making money. I think Navigator sales are even up this year. The MKZ will be refreshed next year and the MKS will debut hopefully with a high power Twin Force engine followed by the Lincolnized Flex. That is more than enough for Lincoln to "get by" with until the new platforms are ready.
Lincoln is not taken seriously as a luxury mark, entry-level lux at best, which is very crowded, shark-invested waters. Jaguar is filling the lux market, not as well as Ford would like particularly since it grossly overpaid for it, but filling a market none the less. Can Lincoln take over Jag sales. Will FOMOCO get decent money for Jag, enough to prop up their coffers as well as help Lincoln. I don't think they will use the AM monies for this effort, they have to use that cash to fill their wounds. We both are in agreement that FOMOCO didn't invest in RWD platform; hopefully they will see the light.
You admit MKZ is moving along at modest volumes, with these well below what Ford/Lincoln wanted I might add. So the question is can the MKS, -Z, Flex not only sustain but improve Lincoln while the RWD platform comes on in 5 years or so (I don't trust the 3 years). Will it pan out keeping Lincoln on death-watch / life-support?
Lincoln doesn't have any products to entice true lux car buyers.
So, in order to keep the lights on,they are going to have to incentivise and whore out what limited product they do have.
This will poison the waters when and if they do have a real luxury product to sell.
Will?
I think it's already happened.
You tell me? If the sales projection was modest, what is modest in their book? 25K, 30K? How do you know they're aren't well-below? Are you the product / production planner for Lincoln (I sure hope not)? Stop playing the word games Ak, it gets boring and very old really quick.
You sell 1 car less you are below expectations. Sell less by the hundreds and/or thousands you are well below in sales projections. Don't hit your ROI / break-even point by the projected time, you're below expectations. And depending on when you'll eventually hit that point, you can / will be below expectations. Or if you want to play the percentage game, miss your target by 5% or more is this game, you well below expectations. Don't believe me, talk to finance guys/gals when you don't make book.
Remember, we're just talking about keeping their heads above water until they get new platforms and engines starting with the MKS.
But that is the problem / point. There is nothing in their portfolio to make huge luxo-crowds go into the showroom to help them keep their head above water. Unless, like others pointed out, they're incentive-ized up the wa-zoo!! But you don't want to do that either, but that can downgrade the vehicles in the minds/thoughts of potential buyers.
Is Lincoln as confident as you they can tread water with these products while the competition is constant improving and gaining more buyers?
In the N years from now that the new product(s) comes out, will it be strong enough to keep existing customers who were patient, bring in new buyers, continue to bring in buyers after the newness wears off
Will these N year products trump the competition, which will be starting a new design cycle or totally new product (they can't just merely compete / match)
Unlike what may seem like bashing or arguing with you akirby, I do want Lincoln to gain and be able to make it, competing in the market they gave up, and be thought of in the same light as BMW, Lexus, MB, even Infiniti. Yes, I more than know it'll take time, I am in the auto / heavy truck industry, so I know what time it can take. But I can't support continued half-hearted efforts, missteps, miscalculations, misreading the market, and just putting out product just to put it out. And we're not talking a year or two, but decades. They, and any car manufacturer for that matter, have to give a fu-man-chu to get my hard-earned dollars. And right now, IMO, they don't have it.
Nevertheless Ford is better off if sells Jaguar and LR because it will save a ton on money simply by not throwing away another billions in new product development without any hope of return. Lincoln may not have the same reputation but at least if Ford invests same amount of money in Lincoln it will return a good profit. With British marques it never happens – they just are jewelry in crown and jewelry is not a good investment these days.
Strangely (or not) when the topic name appears on my list of things with new posts (Where is Ford Taking Lincoln), my instictive response is always:
down the toilet.
I'll be happy to be wrong, but don't wish to wait around as long as it's going to take to find out.
If they have great cars in 2012 or so, I'm pretty sure I won't care. I've already invested more than seven years in a brand that cares nothing for what I value in a car. That's a fair percentage of my driving life, and I drive a lot. I so wish I'd have spent it otherwise, but. . .
Come 2010 or so I'm 100% certain my single experiment with a Ford product will be over and done. I'm also 100% certain that the Ford/Lincoln brain trust couldn't care less.
People post about a new platform, but it would take 2 or 3 years to bring it to market...just how complex is it to make a new rectangular chassis when they have been doing it for almost 100 years???...just how much "new design" can they put into chassis design that makes it so different???...after all, it is just a damn frame that holds the engine, drive train and body off the ground...
They can make it 6 inches longer or shorter, they can make it out of good or better (rigid) steel, but isn't this crap about needing time for a new frame almost silly???
Having made many frames over the last 50 years, can't they develop a new frame in about, say, 2-3 MINUTES, with CAD/CAM design???...they know how to hold up straight 6, V6, and V8 engines for years, are they trying to make it out of polymer or something???
It sounds like coming up with a new spoke design for an alloy wheel...after deciding on the number of spokes, just how many ways can you design the spoke itself, and can't that be done in an hour???...how complicated is this procedure???
It just seems that they should not need that much time as folks described...
Maybe I am missing something, or maybe I should blame it on global warming...:):):)...
I'm NOT saying they're where they should be, just that it will take time to get there and they're not doing as terrible in the meantime as you think.
Just because it doesn't have a V8 and RWD doesn't mean it's a failure. Seems to work just fine for Lexus.
I don't think any other manufacturers are doing it that much more quickly than Ford. Ford just has a habit of announcing what they're doing before they start so it seems like it takes longer. Take the new Accord - haven't heard one peep about it until 2 weeks before it arrives. Nothing.
But, since I am not an engineer, what do I know???
I bet they have a whole team of engineers who do nothing but try to predict and get rid of any vibration (NVH) from the chassis.
There are lots of platforms that have been around a long time. The panthers (town car, grand marquis, crown vic) is probably the best example - there have been updates but the same basic platform has been here for 30 years. The pre-05 Mustang platform also.
Chrysler is using the previous generation E class platform (or at least major parts of it) for the 300/Magnum/Charger.
I don't think Camry and Accord have really had a new platform for at least the last 3 product cycles. They just update the old one and call it new. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Ford's problem is their existing platforms were old or just plain sucked. Or they screwed up like designing a mustang platform that can't be stretched for sedans. And to be fair they've had their share of mis-management and lack of or change in direction mid-stream (look at the Hurricane engine project that was started, cancelled and then restarted by Mark Fields.
Having toured the Wixom plant when it was alive and using Computer Sequential Production methods, I too do not appreciate the need for a three year wait for a box.
If my current TC was terminated today, I'd buy a late XJ8L because it's RWD and different in design. :confuse:
It cost too much was the complaint.
Excuse me, Lexus has not one and not two but three unique RWD sedans (and I am talking only about sedans) that Toyota does not share platform with. It is IS, GS and LS. I am not even want to go into V8. To say that Lexus does not have V8 – it is great underestimation. May be they do not have V12, but I am not even sure about it – may be Lexus actually has V12 or will have it soon. Lexus is the only competitor of Mercedes – so anything Mercedes has Lexus has to replicate.
Well even Infiniti has infinitely more RWD cars models that Lincoln (as you know any number divided by 0 is infinity)
It cost too much was the complaint.
Not only that, but the 3.7L Duratec with Direct Injection and premium fuel should make just as much hp (315) if not more than the 4.4L V8. The Twin Force 3.5L would be in the 350-380 neighborhood.
Nobody is debating that Lincoln needs a RWD V8 platform. The problem is there isn't a good one available right now, but it's in the works (finally) thanks to Mulally forcing Europe, North America and Australia to start acting like one company and pooling their resources.
The platform thing is debateable; there is probably some commonality in there with the Crown and the Mark X. Toyota has only used their 5L V12 in the Century, but I wouldn't be surprised to see some version of it show up in the LS one day.
Lux buyers want V8's.
V6's are for family cars.
Plus,if Lincoln wasn't going to spend the money for an existing V8 engine,why would they spend money to develop a more powerful V6?
Doesn't make any sense.
Really? GS350, 535i, E350 - ring a bell? The MKS 3.7L V6 will have more power than those non V8 luxury sedans.
if Lincoln wasn't going to spend the money for an existing V8 engine,why would they spend money to develop a more powerful V6? Doesn't make any sense.
Because the V8 was only putting out 315 hp and was very expensive because it was a limited production engine outsourced to Yamaha. The Duratec 3.7 is much cheaper (made in house off existing high volume 3.5L duratec) and puts out more than 315 hp in 3.7L DirectInjectionPremium guise and WAY more than 315 hp with the Twinforce version.
Why would you want less power at a higher cost? You need a larger RWD platform for a larger V8. It's on the way, just be patient.
Really? GS350, 535i, E350 - ring a bell? The MKS 3.7L V6 will have more power than those non V8 luxury sedans.
You forgot to add that ALL those car companies offer V8 powered versions of those cars.
If you want to truly be competitive,you cannot just offer V6's.
Esp if you are coming from far behind like Lincoln is.
Next,you have driveability issues. A high hp V6 has to be wound way up to produce hp,where a V8 does not.
V8's also have an inherently better torque curve,which promotes smooth driving.
This is especially critical to Lincoln's customers.
BINGO!!
This is why real lux cars are RWD, especially those with sport aspirations.
And the 6 cylinder versions outsell the V8 versions in some cases by a wide margin.
Why did BMW choose a twin turbo 6 in the 535i instead of a V8?
RWD is on the way, but it's at least 3 years away thanks to bonehead management prior to Mullaly.