GM, Ford and Chrysler are not going to close ALL of their North American plants. They will close some...and may even shutter a few divisions (Mercury, Pontiac and possibly Buick).
I was being sarcastic and giving a worst case scenario that if our trade policy's don't improve or change the big 3 will be out of business.
But that won't be the end of the world, and it won't even be the end of auto making in North America. Oldsmobile and Plymouth went away, and the sun still rises in the east and sets in the west.
Our economy was strong enough back then and could absorb the loss of both of those brands. GM, came up with Hummer to essentially replace Oldsmobile. They also improved Saturn, and are currently working on Saab which has picked up the slack. You are talking about about a couple of brands and I'm talking about a couple of company's.
There will still be a big demand for cars and trucks - 17 or so million per year - and lots of people will still be employed here to make those vehicles.
That is true but each year it seems those numbers decrease each passing year.
They won't all be UAW members, but no where does it say that the UAW must have a monopoly on the labor used to build new vehicles.
The non-union transplant workers don't even come close to having the buying power impact as their UAW counterparts and thus have less of a economic impact. That is dollars and sense or just common sense.
The factories and company headquarters won't all be concentrated in the industrial Midwest, which is a GOOD thing, as I believe that the limited perspective of GM, Ford and Chrysler stems in part from their proximity to Detroit and to each other.
Just how many factory's are concentrated in Detroit ???? :confuse: The big three have built factory's all across this country. I don't understand why or how you could say just Detroit. Honda, has a greater percentage of there North American business in Marysville, Ohio than the big 3 have in Detroit
rockylee: That is merely a guess as you said. The people I know that do subscribe to CR are people that are easily influenced. They have to wear certain brands, and only drive certain brands to protray a certain image because they lack self confidence. These are your usual CR subscribers. I know its a stereotype but based on the people I know they almost all have a similar character make-up and yes some of them are my friends, family, and co-workers.
Studies have shown that GM customers are among the least likely to use the Internet to research new vehicle purchases, and do the least amount of research in general before purchasing a vehicle.
Autoweek also recently noted that among the six major auto makers in the United States, GM customers have lowest income level. Honda owners have the highest income level, followed by Toyota owners.
Our trade policies have given American consumers more choices and higher quality vehicles than ever before.
Until the big three close because of it ? I'm sure many others feel the exact same way as you about our trade policy's and how they have given them higher quality You have so many choices for oil and gas company's don't ya ???? You have received higher quality tools from china when you go to Home Depot or Lowes. Yeah, Okay grbeck Our trade policy's have also allowed us affordable prescription drugs, and health care insurance. I'm now wondering what country you live in ???? :surprise:
It isn't just Consumer Reports that recommends Hondas and Toyotas over domestic offerings.
Yeah, I know that grbeck. Motor Trend, Consumer Reports, whats the difference ???????
Hyundai and Kia have dramatically improved their vehicles, but even then they have still had to offer an extremely long warranty, coupled with much lower prices than the competition, to get consumers to consider their products. So they haven't gotten a "free pass" from American consumers.
The long warranty is the only gimmick that has helped them out and stay in business. Most of their cars are still shoddy. I almost died when my good friend drove up in her kia at work to me. I was like oh thats nice. I didn't want to hurt her feelings even though my back was hurting after sitting on the cardboard padding inside the seats :surprise:
Studies have shown that GM customers are among the least likely to use the Internet to research new vehicle purchases, and do the least amount of research in general before purchasing a vehicle.
GM, also has the highest percentage of repeat customers in the industry. I'd like to see those studies.
Autoweek also recently noted that among the six major auto makers in the United States, GM customers have lowest income level. Honda owners have the highest income level, followed by Toyota owners.
Autoweek, is more biased than most of the major car magazines. I once subscribed to them for a whole year and was disappointed. Regardless I have a hard time believing honda owners having the highest income level when Toyota, has Lexus and you have to be very well off to buy the majority of Lexus brand products. :surprise:
rockylee: I was being sarcastic and giving a worst case scenario that if our trade policy's don't improve or change the big 3 will be out of business.
If they don't improve their vehicles, they will be out of business.
Targeting trade policies is just another way to justify "business as usual" in Detroit, which is the last thing that any of us need right now.
rockylee: Our economy was strong enough back then and could absorb the loss of both of those brands. GM, came up with Hummer to essentially replace Oldsmobile. They also improved Saturn, and are currently working on Saab which has picked up the slack. You are talking about about a couple of brands and I'm talking about a couple of company's.
The phaseout of Oldsmobile was announced in December 2000, and the last one - an Alero - rolled off the line in April 2004. The Plymouth phaseout was announced in 1999, and the final one - a Neon - was built in 2001 (June, if I recall correctly).
The economy is stronger now than it was in 2000-01, as the tech boom was over by mid-2000, and the artificial boost provided by the Y2K work was largely spent.
Saturn had been around for almost a decade by 2000, so it did not replace Oldsmobile. And neither Saab nor Hummer were ever envisioned as an Oldsmobile replacement.
rockylee: That is true but each year it seems those numbers decrease each passing year.
No, new vehicle sales have held fairly steady over the last few years, although some sources forecast a decrease in demand for next year.
rockylee: The non-union transplant workers don't even come close to having the buying power impact as their UAW counterparts and thus have less of a economic impact. That is dollars and sense or just common sense.
No, the buying power of transplant workers compared to their UAW counterparts is about the same, when one considers the lower cost of living in the South, and the lack of mandatory union dues.
rockylee: Just how many factory's are concentrated in Detroit ???? The big three have built factory's all across this country. I don't understand why or how you could say just Detroit. Honda, has a greater percentage of there North American business in Marysville, Ohio than the big 3 have in Detroit
The headquarters are all concentrated in the Detroit region - GM (Detroit), Ford (Dearborn) and Chrysler (Auburn Hills).
Ford and GM are international companies, although Ford appears to be doing a better job of allowing what is good about its foreign subsidiaries (Ford of Europe and Volvo and Mazda) to influence its domestic products.
Honda has a big factory in Ohio, it is true, but its North American headquarters is located in California.
Have you checked out how many domestics are on Edmund's Editors Most Wanted list?
How do the truly free thinkers make their auto purchasing decisions? I'd say that the average vehicle today sells for around $25k. Most people are going to attempt to be as informed as possible before making that type of investment. I will agree that CR tends to prioritize safety, reliability, and fuel economy over things like performance, handling and style. With that in mind it is still a valuable source of information that, IMO, should be included as part of the whole research process. Now if your top priority is to buy domestic to protect UAW jobs then I'm not sure that represents enlightenment.
If they don't improve their vehicles, they will be out of business.
Agree.....Even if they do improve their vehicals they verywell could still be out of business given the unfair and unfree market.
Targeting trade policies is just another way to justify "business as usual" in Detroit, which is the last thing that any of us need right now.
What are you afraid your japanese imports price will go up because toyota, won't lower their prices enough to compensate for a tariff because the japanese manipulate their currency ???? It would be shocking to there bottom line if they had to settle for real world profit margins like the big 3 have done for years. You might then just see some cost cutting from toyota. This is not what you want to happen, right ? Why should the big 3 only have to suffer ???? If its good for one, then its good for all.
The phaseout of Oldsmobile was announced in December 2000, and the last one - an Alero - rolled off the line in April 2004. The Plymouth phaseout was announced in 1999, and the final one - a Neon - was built in 2001 (June, if I recall correctly).
The economy is stronger now than it was in 2000-01, as the tech boom was over by mid-2000, and the artificial boost provided by the Y2K work was largely spent.
Yeah that was back when some company's were cooking the books. I suppose some still are since Bush, has done very little to prosecute these criminals. You could throw Delphi's board of directors in jail but nothing yet has been done and they like many others will walk free like O.J. :mad: OTOH, I don't see any evidence that our economy is any stronger now than in 2000-01. The stock market doesn't reflect the overall health of the economy as many economist have said. I guess you have forgotten already about the war in Iraq and its price tag. I guess adding trillions in debt to the deficit is just okay because we can pass it down like a heirloom to our children. :surprise:
Saturn had been around for almost a decade by 2000, so it did not replace Oldsmobile. And neither Saab nor Hummer were ever envisioned as an Oldsmobile replacement.
I know that but all togeather have easily replaced the sales numbers.
No, new vehicle sales have held fairly steady over the last few years, although some sources forecast a decrease in demand for next year.
I was referring to the number of autoworkers left in this country.
No, the buying power of transplant workers compared to their UAW counterparts is about the same, when one considers the lower cost of living in the South, and the lack of mandatory union dues.
You know that is hawg wash !!!! Not all the plants are located in the south. As I used earlier Honda has many plants in Ohio and is going to open one in Indiana. You better do some research for making that kind of assumption. Not all the plants are in low cost area's either. Even so a UAW worker in Arlington, Texas is way better off than a non-union transplant worker in San Antonio, and that isn't including benefits. Your assumptions puzzle me sometimes grbeck. I however do like you alot and appreciate the friendly debate. Union dues are 1 1/2 hour of your wage a month. $45 a month if you are making $30 an hour. The UAW workers have about a $9-11 an hour advantage over toyota workers assuming both employees have worked for the company at least 10 years. Which company would you realistically rather work for ?
Those nasty union dues of $45 a month cost you $540 a year even though you have free medical when you are working and nearly free when you retire. You also have a $37K a year pension with like I said medical, dental, prescription, optical, insurance. Your base salary is in the top 20% without over time while you are working. 1 1/2 hourly wage over 8 hours. 1 1/2 on Saturdays and Double Time on Sundays. If you work holidays you get double time plus holiday pay which equals to Triple Time. sub-pay paid by the union during a short-term lay-off. Do you get those type of benefits at the Japanese transplants that are non-union ????? OHHHH I didn't think so..... I guess those awful $500 dollar yearly union dues add no benefit to you. GEEEEEEZZZZZZZZ grbeck !
The headquarters are all concentrated in the Detroit region - GM (Detroit), Ford (Dearborn) and Chrysler (Auburn Hills).
Okay you said factory's and didn't say HQ. And your point is.....????? The Japanese transplants are all HQ on a tiny island called Japan, so ????? What's your point ????? It's not like the Japanese HQ are thousands of miles apart. :confuse:
Ford and GM are international companies, although Ford appears to be doing a better job of allowing what is good about its foreign subsidiaries (Ford of Europe and Volvo and Mazda) to influence its domestic products.
I don't see what any of this has to do with our discussion ??? HQ's don't really mean anything of significants does it ?????
Honda has a big factory in Ohio, it is true, but its North American headquarters is located in California.
California isn't a expensive place to live ???? :surprise:
Torrance, California right ??? Honda, still is HQ in Japan and just because they have a HQ in California for the U.S. market doesn't make them a domestic company. Honda, like Toyota have made a impact on some local economy's here in the U.S. but have caused more damage than good because their government manipulates their currency so bad they have a very unfair advantage. If the transplants didn't have this currency advantage along with a home market that was closed to our imports I would gladly welcome their presence in our country since competition does improve products like y'all have noted. I just wished it could be more of a level playing field and not where one side makes such huge profit margins because our government refuses to act in our best interests. I also think it would be more of a challenge to see just how good the japanese really are at car making. Anybody can cheat and win. The question is could the Japanese, win in the auto buiz without these unfair advantages ?????? I guess we will never know.
I do doubt they would of expanded this fast without those advantages and thus would of gave the Big 3 ample time in this present day to react instead of getting the blitzkrieg attack
Have you checked out how many domestics are on Edmund's Editors Most Wanted list?
Yep....It's a list I disagree with since like CR it's limited to subscribers and based on all the people I know on edmunds the majority of people in these forums tend to love imports.
How do the truly free thinkers make their auto purchasing decisions? I'd say that the average vehicle today sells for around $25k. Most people are going to attempt to be as informed as possible before making that type of investment.
That's where the problem lies. They try to educate themselves usually based on one or two reviews from company's like CR or edmunds. I'd reccommend J.D. over any other so-called independent tester since they don't limit their testing to subscribers. I personally believe many car magazines including CR recieve dollars for good reviews and market their magazine to their base which includes a majority of import buyers. Sure they will throw in a carrot once in a while to not look so biased like giving a review on a domestic vehical and then a few months later have some import come a long and kill it in every test. My god its more predictable than "Big Time Wrestling"
I will agree that CR tends to prioritize safety, reliability, and fuel economy over things like performance, handling and style. With that in mind it is still a valuable source of information that, IMO, should be included as part of the whole research process.
I suppose if you like reading reviews that are already scripted. Maybe many CR subscribers also like the WWF or WWE or whatever its called now ????? :P I also wonder if many CR subscribers are NASCAR fans. That sport is also choreographed like the WWF.
Now if your top priority is to buy domestic to protect UAW jobs then I'm not sure that represents enlightenment.
I like and buy UAW made cars because not only do they protect jobs but the domestics make cars I really like in styling, performance, price, warranty, and now high quality and reliability.
That is the difference between your post and mine. It's not like cars being made by GM, are being replaced by Boeing making flying cars. The economic and jobs hit is less severe.
With all the new investment sponsered by the Fed Res automotive production in NA is much higher than it was in the 90's. There are many many more vehicles being built here than before.....just not by union shops. That's the key difference. Automotive production in NA is at it's highest level ever!!
8 out 10 auto jobs are provided by the big 3 in this country
I know this is what you wrote but I know it's not what you meant to write. It's not true at all. Think about it!!
I like I've said in the past put most of the blame on the government. Our trade policy's are unfair and un free.
I know by this statement that you didn't read or understand the previous post about how the Federal Reserve helped US manufacturers over the last 35 years by manipulating the value of the US$ to assist in domestic production and aid exports. It missed you right?
Certain people that obviously have low IQ's and can't think for themselves need a biased media to tell them whats best for them thus they pick up the Koran otherwise known as Consumer Report to gain that knowledge. The other problem with americans is we hold grudges. We all know the big 3 made some bad cars in the past but what car company hasn't. The difference is people remember the bad cars made by domestic manufactors and give a free pass to car company's like Hyundai/Kia. I strongly believe you can trace that back to the anti-domestic media problem this country has. This biasness doesn't just happen with car company's and other examples can be shown in tools, machinery, clothing, athletes, art, furniture, etc etc etc.
Participate in the Midsize Sedan Comparison board here. No one but no one gives Hyundai a free pass on it's past quality nightmares. As a matter of fact it's their biggest hurdle to overcome. And they are not doing all that well.
Your words above are the words of a helpless victim or a victim-to-be. We are not victims. We know what is happening and we react with the times. If it means moving on then and being successful in other area's that's the American Way. Standing still and letting events overtake us is not our way. Don't be a whiner and don't be a loser. Move on and keep ahead of the crowd.
The detroiters are not going to close. Yes they are going to close their union factories as fast as they can but you can imagine why. All three have well establised programs to move as much production as possible to Mexico.
What you are really saying is 'Until the big three close [ all their union facilities ] because of it?'
This is a done deal on the part of the detroiters. The union knows it. The workers know it. The 'biased' press knows what GM/F/DC are doing. Shareholders can't wait for it to occur because profits will start to come back.
Oh, btw did you see the raves for the new lambda crossovers by the 'biased' press? Well maybe it's not that biased, right?
I hope we're not going through the CR thing again. Their survey is a convenience survey. It's not scientific. Their pick their cars based on what their driver's like where they are on one of the coasts. They slant their reviews and are picky about certain things on some cars through the years and overlook similar things on other cars that they like. They use nuances in their wording to make things seem more or less important depending on the car involved. I have read their reviews occasionally for years.
We even had a poster no longer here under their previous name post supposed sample questions of their convenience survey in the past. But the survey means nothing unless it's scientifically done and the results and the numbers for each car model are included with the information to help assess the possible deviation for that car model.
I'd reccommend J.D. over any other so-called independent tester since they don't limit their testing to subscribers
You do realize that J.D. Powers quality rankings put Toyota and Honda above any domestic brand? So that's another source that is saying what CR and Edmund's is saying. If everyone is stating the same thing at some point you've got to entertain the idea that its not rigged, manipulated, or paid for. It might actually be true. I'm not saying that the domestics are putting out junk. Some of their models are very good and they've made great improvements in quality. But, in general, their quality is still not comparable to Toyotas or Hondas and you don't overcome a bad reputation by being almost as good.
I'll admit that I subscribe to CR and consider their reviews when making major purchases. Obviously you feel like Rocky, that their views are biased. Okay, what's their agenda? Do you have a more scientific source that shows domestic brands having superior quality to Toyota and Honda? I'd actually like to believe that the US makes the best automobiles but its going to take a lot of convincing from a very credible source, and I won't sacrifice quality to help save a UAW job.
I asked if you could like to the JDR results. I'm not having a socala debate about CR. I only recall that Toyota Lexus models were high and Honda's models were below Cadillac and Buick. If anyone has links---please post the link about Toyota being higher.
The factor is athat all cars are within a much tighter range than they have been in past.
The factor is athat all cars are within a much tighter range than they have been in past.
I agree and I never said otherwise and this same sentiment is echoed by CR.
I believe there is another JD Powers survey that is based on 3 years rather than 1st year. In this survey Cadillac, Buick, and maybe Mercury finished higher than Honda and Toyota. If this is the study that people want to use as the definitive, more scientific source for determining quality than I can go along with that. This study goes into more detail and ranks vehicles by type. Toyota is number one in small SUV, mid-size SUV, and large truck with the RAV4, Highlander, and Tundra respectively. That represents the domestics bread and butter.
With all the new investment sponsered by the Fed Res automotive production in NA is much higher than it was in the 90's. There are many many more vehicles being built here than before.....just not by union shops. That's the key difference. Automotive production in NA is at it's highest level ever!!
I can go along with that if you count Mexico and Canada.
I know this is what you wrote but I know it's not what you meant to write. It's not true at all. Think about it!!
It is true a study done by Harbour Research.....well here's a link again to prove me right like normal :P j/k
I know by this statement that you didn't read or understand the previous post about how the Federal Reserve helped US manufacturers over the last 35 years by manipulating the value of the US$ to assist in domestic production and aid exports. It missed you right?
I don't care if our government helps us out. I don't want them helping out others out. I care mainly about my country and my citizens not theirs. If we can cheat to win I'm all for it
Participate in the Midsize Sedan Comparison board here. No one but no one gives Hyundai a free pass on it's past quality nightmares. As a matter of fact it's their biggest hurdle to overcome. And they are not doing all that well.
Would love to drop me a link please
Your words above are the words of a helpless victim or a victim-to-be. We are not victims. We know what is happening and we react with the times. If it means moving on then and being successful in other area's that's the American Way. Standing still and letting events overtake us is not our way. Don't be a whiner and don't be a loser. Move on and keep ahead of the crowd.
I agree with your words but don't agree with your approach. I want to win at everything. I don't want to give up anything we've gained to another country. I want to dominate and be the best we can be at everything and if the world gets left behind to benefit all my fellow americans then so be it. I guess thats the patriotic blood that runs through my veins.
The detroiters are not going to close. Yes they are going to close their union factories as fast as they can but you can imagine why. All three have well establised programs to move as much production as possible to Mexico.
Like John Edwards said this morning when he annouced he was running for president and whom I'm most likely to vote for. We need universal healthcare coverage. It will keep and bring jobs back into this country. He also is for fair trade and I have no doubt he will take whatever policy actions to level the playing field for the big 3 so they can compete and stay in this country.
What you are really saying is 'Until the big three close [ all their union facilities ] because of it?
Do you really think the big 3 want to close all their plants here in the U.S. ???? I really don't !!!!! However they need to stay in business and make their share holders profits and that means closing some U.S. plants because of un fair advantages that foreigners have on us. It also doesn't help having a do nothing president and congress for 6-years when all 3 big 3 CEO's go to the white house and beg to make the playing field at least level. :mad:
This is a done deal on the part of the detroiters. The union knows it. The workers know it. The 'biased' press knows what GM/F/DC are doing. Shareholders can't wait for it to occur because profits will start to come back.
It's not a totally done deal. I only have to wait 2 more years to see if its a done deal. If Edwards is elected the big 3 will be coming back in the U.S.
Oh, btw did you see the raves for the new lambda crossovers by the 'biased' press? Well maybe it's not that biased, right?
Well they throw a carrot at ya us once in a while to attempt to shut people like me up. :mad:
If I was prez.....I would use as much of our oil as I could for 1 year and after investing billions into alternative fuels I wouldn't need imported oil as the major source to power cars, etc.
I also would build and expand Nuclear Power Plants plus expand solar, wind, hydrogen, ocean turbine technology's. Cold Fusion is another one worth investing R&D into.
The bottom line is we can make the middle east drink their oil if we wanted too. It's the right morale thing to do and we can be the leader in the prevention of global warming.
What about all those oil/gas workers that might lose their jobs ? They would have "preference" on being hired in alternative energy sectors. :P
Hillary and Obama are one in the same leaving Edwards as the Hillama alternative. He is more of a throw back to the Conservative Democrat era something the democrat party has been missing for a very very long time. He is very likable and has those good ol' fashion southern roots
I care mainly about my country and my citizens not theirs. If we can cheat to win I'm all for it
I want to dominate and be the best we can be at everything and if the world gets left behind to benefit all my fellow americans then so be it. I guess thats the patriotic blood that runs through my veins.
I find that position borderline offensive. I consider myself to be a patriotic American but I can't adopt a mindset that basically says our standard of living and quality of life takes precedence over all non-Americans and if they must sacrifice in order for us to achieve this objective, so be it. What the hell did you do to become an American other than being born lucky? We can adopt all the protectionism we want and our trading partners will do likewise. Eventually there will be no international trade. Is that what Lou Dobbs advocates?
Your posts today have been spiralling somewhat out of control. Have you been hitting the bottle?
I find that position borderline offensive. I consider myself to be a patriotic American but I can't adopt a mindset that basically says our standard of living and quality of life takes precedence over all non-Americans and if they must sacrifice in order for us to achieve this objective, so be it.
Well I'm sorry you feel that way. I think we americans do way to much sacrificing and don't get anything in return but closed markets and currency manipulation from country's like Japan, even though we protect their butts. They can protect themselves for all I care. The sad thing is you support these economic policy's and root very strongly for the away team. :confuse:
What the hell did you do to become an American other than being born lucky?
I am lucky but could of been just as lucky and been born in Norway. :shades:
We can adopt all the protectionism we want and our trading partners will do likewise.
Many of them already do. Many of the country's we trade with already tariff our goods. your arguemnt is nothing more than a straw-man arguement because we the United States of America is the only country that's capable of surviving on our own without any help. We have all the natural resources and technology to be independent in a worse case scenario. If we really needed something we could invade and take over like we have done in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Eventually there will be no international trade. Is that what Lou Dobbs advocates?
Lou, un like you advocates fair trade. That is what I've been advocating all day long with you. You obviously disagree and give the standard line of "the domestic just need to improve their products" line. Somehow you can't grasp the fact that it's much more than just that to be competitive and survive. :confuse:
Your posts today have been spiralling somewhat out of control. Have you been hitting the bottle?
I love how you accuse me of hitting the bottle. :surprise: After arguing with you all day I wished I had. :P You can sometimes be enough to drive somebody to drink with how often you "spin" peoples posts. I however have had fun debating with you at times even though we rarely agree.
I don't want to give up anything we've gained to another country. I want to dominate and be the best we can be at everything and if the world gets left behind to benefit all my fellow americans then so be it. I guess thats the patriotic blood that runs through my veins.
Rocky, this is where you and I completely agree. We just see getting there in completely different ways. You think that by tariffs we will improve the sales for domestic companies. Reality is just the opposite - that this sort of thing encourages mediocrity. Having your back to the wall is the best way to force you to take things seriously, to make a company fight, get mean and tough, and prevail. When my son wants candy, I don't always give him candy! He'd eat it all day and become fat and diabetic if I let him - just like the domestic auto manufacturers did! I tell my son to eat his vegetables! Well it's time for Ford and GM to eat theirs too! Because in the end it will be better for them!
Ford's back is up against the wall, and GM is starting down a more serious improvement plan because of the competition. I want the American companies to be the best, too. I'm frankly disgusted by their decades of shoddy output and I want to see them suffer to the point of making major improvements and becoming the best in the world. And tariffs are NOT the way to do that! Quit whining, quit bitching, and make a better product!
I guess we disagree on how fast the task could be accomplished. I think 5 years is actually more realistic on my part to get it done. We have started already with E85, but agree we need to speed up the process.
Rocky, this is where you and I completely agree. We just see getting there in completely different ways. You think that by tariffs we will improve the sales for domestic companies.
I never said tariffs are the ultimate fix but rather a idea or practical solution that other country's use to protect their domestic interest from foreigners wanting a piece of the pie. On another note the tariff idea of mine was a counter balance to the currency manipulation the Japanese refuse to change. If the Japanese didn't cheat by manipulation then I would have absolutely no problem keeping as free of a market as possible.
So after reviewing my post you and I might not disagree with me as much as you think.
I think what you miss is that the Big 3's problems do not stem from a lack of money. Their lack of cash is just a symptom of their real problems -- they don't make products that people want, so consumers spend their money elsewhere. That is ultimately the fault of these companies' management, who apparently can't figure out who to do what it takes to be successful.
Giving tariffs to the Big 3 would be like giving a winning lottery ticket to a chronic junkie who has become accustomed to living on handouts. Give them a bailout without a path to improving their products and cleaning up their leadership, and the cash will only delay their inevitable slam into the proverbial wall.
Tariffs would cost us all dearly, and I, for one, don't want to throw my good money after bad on fixing what ails them, being that they seem unwilling to help themselves. I'm of the opinion that the best thing that could happen to GM would be bankruptcy -- it would force a housecleaning, and bring the attention of outsiders to what really is going wrong with the company.
Rick Wagoner may feel that he accomplished something by keeping out Ghosn, but that was a Pyhrric victory at most. The cars need to be better, the distribution has to become more efficient and the branding needs to be cleaned up. I would never support a bailout without first getting all of the bums tossed out, at least half of the cars cancelled, and some people in the driver seat who actually know something about managing failed companies.
WOW.........You are among the very few that I've spoken with that have absolutely no confidence in Rick Wagoner. I do have to admit I wasn't a big fan of Slick at first. However he has won me over this past year. Putz, well he has a way to go.
Rocky
P.S. Regardless of how bad you think the big three are they deserve to have the oppertunity like all business the right to play on a level field especially with foreign competition at the very least.
On another note the tariff idea of mine was a counter balance to the currency manipulation the Japanese refuse to change. If the Japanese didn't cheat by manipulation then I would have absolutely no problem keeping as free of a market as possible.
I guess I don't buy the whole currency manipulation argument. I don't see why the American manufacturers couldn't have good quality vehicles, even if the price was higher. The market has shown that making great vehicles will allow you to charge a higher price. Look at BMW, or even Honda and Toyota.
I am coming to a reluctant belief that we need to do something about the healthcare situation, however. I think you and I agree on that one. :P
Regardless of how bad you think the big three are they deserve to have the oppertunity like all business the right to play on a level field especially with foreign competition at the very least.
They've had tons of advantages over new entrants, they blew it.
1. They had domestic loyalty, especially in the earlier years. 2. They had government loans (Chrysler), voluntary quotas (Reagan, in the 80's). 3. They had huge profitable SUV market in the 90s. They could have put their profits into building world-class cars. They didn't deliver AT ALL.
How much help to you give to a pair of basket case companies. 20 years? 30 years? When is enough? I think they should sink or swim. Those that survive will be making really good product.
“P.S. Regardless of how bad you think the big three are they deserve to have the oppertunity like all business the right to play on a level field especially with foreign competition at the very least.”
Well there is just one problem the world isn’t fair is it? Honestly all countries manipulate currency to their benefit. The US government thinks that having the dollar less than the yen is fine. As it benefits consumers (the vast majority do neither work for the big 3 nor work for a company that supports them). If GM and Ford should go out of business tomorrow, I might shed a tear for them, but frankly life will go on perhaps even better than before with people being put to more useful work.
I think you have been reading too much UAW stuff. I am a pro-union guy and even I think the UAW is part of the problem. Why can’t the UAW take some of those Union dues and unionize the Toyota plants? Why does the UAW seem to fight to keep jobs that are no longer needed?
However making a profit via currency manipulation sound pretty hard to do. The idea behind currency manipulation is to have the foreign products sell for less than the domestic ones. However Toyota and Honda sell for more than the domestics. That alone would remove any advantage. In addition Toyota and Honda make many of their cars here and must pay workers in dollars removing still more advantage.
I think Toyota and Honda do have a bigger profit margrin, but profit margin isn’t the domestics problem. Their problem is they just can’t sell their cars period. If they could sell their cars they wouldn’t be loosing market share. They have burned too many people with low quality products for too long and it is going to take a while to get a reputation for quality.
These are statements by the UAW from their propaganda machine. Without impartial verification by some other source I only take these as ammunition to further it's own pov. It doesnt prove anything other than you have access to UAW publications.
The facts about alledged currency manipulation don't go back near far enough. If you do it right and go all the way back to the 70's then a midsized sedan made in the US should go for about $60000 on the world market. The Fed has manipulated the currency in our favor to drive the price down to the low $20K range.
I'll go along with your auto jobs stats when you show me the BLS figures.
That 'Harbour Report' you mention is not the Harbour Report so often used in the auto industry. Your UAW 'Harbour-Felax' report could have been written by Billy Joe Harbour and Willy Felax.
All you've provided is one pov from the UAW. That's not data that's nothing more than an opinion like these on this forum.
I don't care if our government helps us out. I don't want them helping out others out. I care mainly about my country and my citizens not theirs. If we can cheat to win I'm all for it
You diverted this thread originally into one asking that tariffs need to be imposed in order to level the playing field. Which is it? You want the help or you don't. It seems that when the fact are shown that the govt has been helping all along for 30 years or more ..well I dont want any help. All the UAW has done is to give you and your friends part of the picture and said 'See how bad off we are. We're victims' They didn't show you the whole picture and neither did you think to inquire further.
Link to which about Hyundai? Their sales are up but leveling off but a good deal of them are to fleets in order to keep the plant running. The market prices tell all. If the Sonata's ( which btw are very good cars now ) were flying off the lots a. they wouldn't need a high volume of fleet sales b. they wouldn't need to be the lowest of all sedans on the market.
Even though the current Sonata may be just below the CamCord's and equal to the Fusion and above both the Sebring and old Malibu it being given away due to Hyundais's past sins.
Do you really think the big 3 want to close all their plants here in the U.S. ???? I really don't !!!!! However they need to stay in business and make their share holders profits and that means closing some U.S. plants because of un fair advantages that foreigners have on us. It also doesn't help having a do nothing president and congress for 6-years when all 3 big 3 CEO's go to the white house and beg to make the playing field at least level.
Except for high-margin vehicles like trucks and some SUV's you're darn right I think they want out of the US. The sooner the better. The stockholders are demanding it. "Get us some profits or get the hell out'.
In that other forum someone already posted something about a confidential Ford memo to invest $18 Billion in Mexico. Wait didn't they just get half of the US workforce to quit? GM is no longer producing Saturns in Tenn, they are being moved to Mexico and assembled on the Opel Astra platform along with the HHR. GM is going to use the TN plant for high margin lambda crossovers.
Ditto Chrysler. It's like someone pulled the plug on the UAW bathwater somewhere around El Paso and all the jobs are being drained to Mexico..... Except for the new ones that Toyota and Honda can save by building new plants here.
leaving Edwards as the Hillama alternative. He is more of a throw back to the Conservative Democrat era
You heard the words today but missed the meaning. Edwards is positioning himself to the left of Hillary the warhawk who's no longer interested in helping the poor working stiff. Edwards is trying to be the Teddy Kennedy of this century. True left-leaning near-socialist democrats stay 'blue' and don't wander too far into the center.
"It's the right morale thing to do and we can be the leader in the prevention of global warming"
First of all, we have a growing demand for jobs, Im sure they can get a new one. For some reason people dont understand that. And dont get me going on "global warming"
I never said tariffs are the ultimate fix but rather a idea or practical solution that other country's use to protect their domestic interest from foreigners wanting a piece of the pie. On another note the tariff idea of mine was a counter balance to the currency manipulation the Japanese refuse to change. If the Japanese didn't cheat by manipulation then I would have absolutely no problem keeping as free of a market as possible.
So after reviewing my post you and I might not disagree with me as much as you think
Tariffs don't work. Look at the steel industry. I was in it for 25 years. Back in the late 80's when tariffs were imposed on most of our trading partners in steel the Big Integrated mills breathed a sigh of relief ... then turned around and stuck the 'tariff knife' in the gut of the auto industry. "Hey you can't buy Canadian, Japanese, German or French high quality steel any longer, so now you've got to pay our prices..heh heh heh..twist, twist."
What was the result for the Big Integrateds? Bethlehem dried up and blew away..'poof gone'. Armco was bought out. LTV disappeared and it's assets were bought on the auction block by an Indian named Mittal. Only US Steel is left and it's in a life and death struggle with..... US mini mills.
They've had tons of advantages over new entrants, they blew it.
1. They had domestic loyalty, especially in the earlier years. 2. They had government loans (Chrysler), voluntary quotas (Reagan, in the 80's). 3. They had huge profitable SUV market in the 90s. They could have put their profits into building world-class cars. They didn't deliver AT ALL.
How much help to you give to a pair of basket case companies. 20 years? 30 years? When is enough? I think they should sink or swim. Those that survive will be making really good product.
No 3 Is a key point. Rocky you act like the detroiters have been ICU patients for their entire lives. Back in the 80's & 90's they figuratively lit their cigars with $1000 bills. It'a ALL gone now! There's none left!!
Add No 4. During the 80's and 90's they also had the US Govt tilting the playing field in their favor by driving down the value of the US currency. You saw the graph I posted from the Fed right? The playing field is now level for the last 10 years or so but the UAW wants it tilted again.
How's this for level... the US$ and the Japanese Yen are in exactly the same place now Jan 1 2007 as they were on Jan 1 1997. Nothing has changed!!!
rockylee: Agree.....Even if they do improve their vehicals they verywell could still be out of business given the unfair and unfree market.
No...they will survive, but as much smaller and leaner companies. As others have amply displayed here, the problem is the management of these companies, and the resulting product miscues that have resulted because of said (mis)management of these companies, not trade policies or currency manipulation.
When Alan Mulally went to Ford, he was shocked to discover that that North American unit had no business plan, and that various departments were not communicating with each other.
That is incredible in a 21st century multi-billion, international enterprise. It also shows that this problem started in Detroit, and must be solved in Detroit.
rockylee: What are you afraid your japanese imports price will go up because toyota, won't lower their prices enough to compensate for a tariff because the japanese manipulate their currency ???? It would be shocking to there bottom line if they had to settle for real world profit margins like the big 3 have done for years. You might then just see some cost cutting from toyota. This is not what you want to happen, right ? Why should the big 3 only have to suffer ???? If its good for one, then its good for all.
A company's profit margin is determined by the efficiency of its operations and what people will pay for its products. Toyota makes more profits on its vehicles because it is a better run company than GM or Ford. This is reflected in the desirability of its vehicles, which command higher prices than comparable GM and Ford products.
Incidentally, what "real world" profit margins from GM and Ford are you talking about? They have been LOSING money for the past year! No company wants to lose money.
rockylee: Yeah that was back when some company's were cooking the books. I suppose some still are since Bush, has done very little to prosecute these criminals. You could throw Delphi's board of directors in jail but nothing yet has been done and they like many others will walk free like O.J.
The problems of many telecommunications and technology companies were brought to light by the collapse of the tech boom. And the last time I checked, Enron's Ken Lay was found guilty, but died before sentencing, several of his lieutenants were found guilty or made plea bargain deals with the federal prosecutors and have also been sentenced, and Bernie Ebbers of Worldcom was also sentenced to jail for over 20 years, which, given his age, effectively constitutes a life sentence.
Looks like the federal government - i.e., the Bush Administration - did prosecute those white-collar criminals.
rockylee: OTOH, I don't see any evidence that our economy is any stronger now than in 2000-01. The stock market doesn't reflect the overall health of the economy as many economist have said. I guess you have forgotten already about the war in Iraq and its price tag. I guess adding trillions in debt to the deficit is just okay because we can pass it down like a heirloom to our children.
You are running together three unrelated subjects - the health of the economy, the war in Iraq and the deficit (which has been declining, and is actually in line with historical figures). Unemployment is down, productivity is up and even incomes of the lower level workers have started to increase.
The U.S. economy is much bigger than GM, Ford, Chrysler and their suppliers.
rockylee: I was referring to the number of autoworkers left in this country.
Which will decrease no matter what, because successful companies use fewer inputs (including labor) to increase output (the finished product). Fortunately, the transplants are hiring here in the states, which picks up some of the slack.
rockylee: You know that is hawg wash !!!! Not all the plants are located in the south. As I used earlier Honda has many plants in Ohio and is going to open one in Indiana. You better do some research for making that kind of assumption. Not all the plants are in low cost area's either. Even so a UAW worker in Arlington, Texas is way better off than a non-union transplant worker in San Antonio, and that isn't including benefits. Your assumptions puzzle me sometimes grbeck. I however do like you alot and appreciate the friendly debate. Union dues are 1 1/2 hour of your wage a month. $45 a month if you are making $30 an hour. The UAW workers have about a $9-11 an hour advantage over toyota workers assuming both employees have worked for the company at least 10 years. Which company would you realistically rather work for ?
This has been discussed extensively on this site, and the difference isn't as great as you portray.
As for which company would I rather work for? The one most likely to stay in business.
rockylee: I don't see what any of this has to do with our discussion ??? HQ's don't really mean anything of significants does it ?????
Yes, they do, because they set the corporate culture, and Detroit - let alone the industrial Midwest - is hardly on the cutting edge of trends and style. Many GM products are "Exhibit A" in that regard...
rockylee: California isn't a expensive place to live ????
So...do you see a max exodus of Honda employees because of living costs?
rockylee: Honda, still is HQ in Japan and just because they have a HQ in California for the U.S. market doesn't make them a domestic company. Honda, like Toyota have made a impact on some local economy's here in the U.S. but have caused more damage than good because their government manipulates their currency so bad they have a very unfair advantage. If the transplants didn't have this currency advantage along with a home market that was closed to our imports I would gladly welcome their presence in our country since competition does improve products like y'all have noted. I just wished it could be more of a level playing field and not where one side makes such huge profit margins because our government refuses to act in our best interests. I also think it would be more of a challenge to see just how good the japanese really are at car making. Anybody can cheat and win. The question is could the Japanese, win in the auto buiz without these unfair advantages ?????? I guess we will never know.
These points have all been effectively rebutted by others on this board.
imidazol97: I hope we're not going through the CR thing again. Their survey is a convenience survey. It's not scientific. Their pick their cars based on what their driver's like where they are on one of the coasts. They slant their reviews and are picky about certain things on some cars through the years and overlook similar things on other cars that they like. They use nuances in their wording to make things seem more or less important depending on the car involved. I have read their reviews occasionally for years.
I guess that "My Buick runs great and everyone is biased against the domestics in general and GM in particular, so therefore GM builds reliable cars and it's all the fault of those currency manipulating Asians anyway" is a much more scientific way of determining the reliability of various makes.
Regardless of how bad you think the big three are they deserve to have the oppertunity like all business the right to play on a level field especially with foreign competition at the very least.
Check out "The Quest for Cosmic Justice" by Thomas Sowell. Fantastic reading, and provides extensive evidence for the impossibility of ever creating a truly level playing field for anyone.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
And now that every major publication & website's consumer and editorial reviews have been dismissed (including, of course, Edmunds) as biased and/or unscientific and/or non-credible, what evaluation do the dismissers deem to be a credible measure of quality and reliability?
Surely we're not just relying on anecdotal testimony of relatives, friends, and neighbors, are we?
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
Even though facts ( not opinions ) have been presented to you to show that none of this is true, why do you continue to retype the same statements? Saying it / writing it over and over again and over again doesn't suddenly make it true if it wasn't true at the beginning.
If you wake up every morning and state.. a. the world is flat;
b. the sun rises in the North;
c. the Cubs will win the WS in my lifetime;
d. the detroiters are not leaving; the detroiters are not leaving; the detroiters are not leaving;
e. 1+1 = 5
Just saying these over and over again doesnt't make any of them true.
You are not thinking for yourself and you are not seeing the whole picture. Now if you say 'I don't care what the real picture is, I just want the status quo to continue in order to protect what my family has.' Then that is a valid and justifiable statement.
There is no problem with that statement because it's truthful and based on reality. Your others are not. The others are twisted facts by the UAW propaganda machine to try to instigate the membership.
...and rarely rely on sources such as CR to make my decisions. Buick has been excellent to me all the way back to my first purchase of an automobile 25 years ago. I recommended Buick to my girlfriend and she then bought the LaCrosse which has also turned out to be an excellent car.
It's also foolish to believe that certain makes are indestructible. Just last night I came back from a friend's house in NE Pennsylvania. I stopped at a Sunoco a few miles from my place to fill up. A bronze-colored 2007 Camry was sitting at the pump in front of me with no driver. I imagine the guy was inside the store paying the attendant. I was waiting and waiting until a man in a Sunoco tanker truck told me to go around the Camry because it died at the pump and was waiting to be towed. I then saw the somewhat embarrassed Camry driver sheepishly staring out the store window.
Comments
I was being sarcastic and giving a worst case scenario that if our trade policy's don't improve or change the big 3 will be out of business.
But that won't be the end of the world, and it won't even be the end of auto making in North America. Oldsmobile and Plymouth went away, and the sun still rises in the east and sets in the west.
Our economy was strong enough back then and could absorb the loss of both of those brands. GM, came up with Hummer to essentially replace Oldsmobile. They also improved Saturn, and are currently working on Saab which has picked up the slack. You are talking about about a couple of brands and I'm talking about a couple of company's.
There will still be a big demand for cars and trucks - 17 or so million per year - and lots of people will still be employed here to make those vehicles.
That is true but each year it seems those numbers decrease each passing year.
They won't all be UAW members, but no where does it say that the UAW must have a monopoly on the labor used to build new vehicles.
The non-union transplant workers don't even come close to having the buying power impact as their UAW counterparts and thus have less of a economic impact. That is dollars and sense or just common sense.
The factories and company headquarters won't all be concentrated in the industrial Midwest, which is a GOOD thing, as I believe that the limited perspective of GM, Ford and Chrysler stems in part from their proximity to Detroit and to each other.
Just how many factory's are concentrated in Detroit ???? :confuse: The big three have built factory's all across this country. I don't understand why or how you could say just Detroit. Honda, has a greater percentage of there North American business in Marysville, Ohio than the big 3 have in Detroit
Rocky
Studies have shown that GM customers are among the least likely to use the Internet to research new vehicle purchases, and do the least amount of research in general before purchasing a vehicle.
Autoweek also recently noted that among the six major auto makers in the United States, GM customers have lowest income level. Honda owners have the highest income level, followed by Toyota owners.
Until the big three close because of it ?
I'm sure many others feel the exact same way as you about our trade policy's and how they have given them higher quality
It isn't just Consumer Reports that recommends Hondas and Toyotas over domestic offerings.
Yeah, I know that grbeck. Motor Trend, Consumer Reports, whats the difference ???????
Hyundai and Kia have dramatically improved their vehicles, but even then they have still had to offer an extremely long warranty, coupled with much lower prices than the competition, to get consumers to consider their products. So they haven't gotten a "free pass" from American consumers.
The long warranty is the only gimmick that has helped them out and stay in business. Most of their cars are still shoddy. I almost died when my good friend drove up in her kia at work to me. I was like oh thats nice. I didn't want to hurt her feelings even though my back was hurting after sitting on the cardboard padding inside the seats :surprise:
Rocky
GM, also has the highest percentage of repeat customers in the industry. I'd like to see those studies.
Autoweek also recently noted that among the six major auto makers in the United States, GM customers have lowest income level. Honda owners have the highest income level, followed by Toyota owners.
Autoweek, is more biased than most of the major car magazines. I once subscribed to them for a whole year and was disappointed. Regardless I have a hard time believing honda owners having the highest income level when Toyota, has Lexus and you have to be very well off to buy the majority of Lexus brand products. :surprise:
Rocky
If they don't improve their vehicles, they will be out of business.
Targeting trade policies is just another way to justify "business as usual" in Detroit, which is the last thing that any of us need right now.
rockylee: Our economy was strong enough back then and could absorb the loss of both of those brands. GM, came up with Hummer to essentially replace Oldsmobile. They also improved Saturn, and are currently working on Saab which has picked up the slack. You are talking about about a couple of brands and I'm talking about a couple of company's.
The phaseout of Oldsmobile was announced in December 2000, and the last one - an Alero - rolled off the line in April 2004. The Plymouth phaseout was announced in 1999, and the final one - a Neon - was built in 2001 (June, if I recall correctly).
The economy is stronger now than it was in 2000-01, as the tech boom was over by mid-2000, and the artificial boost provided by the Y2K work was largely spent.
Saturn had been around for almost a decade by 2000, so it did not replace Oldsmobile. And neither Saab nor Hummer were ever envisioned as an Oldsmobile replacement.
rockylee: That is true but each year it seems those numbers decrease each passing year.
No, new vehicle sales have held fairly steady over the last few years, although some sources forecast a decrease in demand for next year.
rockylee: The non-union transplant workers don't even come close to having the buying power impact as their UAW counterparts and thus have less of a economic impact. That is dollars and sense or just common sense.
No, the buying power of transplant workers compared to their UAW counterparts is about the same, when one considers the lower cost of living in the South, and the lack of mandatory union dues.
rockylee: Just how many factory's are concentrated in Detroit ???? The big three have built factory's all across this country. I don't understand why or how you could say just Detroit. Honda, has a greater percentage of there North American business in Marysville, Ohio than the big 3 have in Detroit
The headquarters are all concentrated in the Detroit region - GM (Detroit), Ford (Dearborn) and Chrysler (Auburn Hills).
Ford and GM are international companies, although Ford appears to be doing a better job of allowing what is good about its foreign subsidiaries (Ford of Europe and Volvo and Mazda) to influence its domestic products.
Honda has a big factory in Ohio, it is true, but its North American headquarters is located in California.
How do the truly free thinkers make their auto purchasing decisions? I'd say that the average vehicle today sells for around $25k. Most people are going to attempt to be as informed as possible before making that type of investment. I will agree that CR tends to prioritize safety, reliability, and fuel economy over things like performance, handling and style. With that in mind it is still a valuable source of information that, IMO, should be included as part of the whole research process. Now if your top priority is to buy domestic to protect UAW jobs then I'm not sure that represents enlightenment.
Agree.....Even if they do improve their vehicals they verywell could still be out of business given the unfair and unfree market.
Targeting trade policies is just another way to justify "business as usual" in Detroit, which is the last thing that any of us need right now.
What are you afraid your japanese imports price will go up because toyota, won't lower their prices enough to compensate for a tariff because the japanese manipulate their currency ???? It would be shocking to there bottom line if they had to settle for real world profit margins like the big 3 have done for years. You might then just see some cost cutting from toyota. This is not what you want to happen, right ? Why should the big 3 only have to suffer ???? If its good for one, then its good for all.
The phaseout of Oldsmobile was announced in December 2000, and the last one - an Alero - rolled off the line in April 2004. The Plymouth phaseout was announced in 1999, and the final one - a Neon - was built in 2001 (June, if I recall correctly).
The economy is stronger now than it was in 2000-01, as the tech boom was over by mid-2000, and the artificial boost provided by the Y2K work was largely spent.
Yeah that was back when some company's were cooking the books. I suppose some still are since Bush, has done very little to prosecute these criminals. You could throw Delphi's board of directors in jail but nothing yet has been done and they like many others will walk free like O.J. :mad: OTOH, I don't see any evidence that our economy is any stronger now than in 2000-01. The stock market doesn't reflect the overall health of the economy as many economist have said. I guess you have forgotten already about the war in Iraq and its price tag. I guess adding trillions in debt to the deficit is just okay because we can pass it down like a heirloom to our children. :surprise:
Saturn had been around for almost a decade by 2000, so it did not replace Oldsmobile. And neither Saab nor Hummer were ever envisioned as an Oldsmobile replacement.
I know that but all togeather have easily replaced the sales numbers.
No, new vehicle sales have held fairly steady over the last few years, although some sources forecast a decrease in demand for next year.
I was referring to the number of autoworkers left in this country.
No, the buying power of transplant workers compared to their UAW counterparts is about the same, when one considers the lower cost of living in the South, and the lack of mandatory union dues.
You know that is hawg wash !!!! Not all the plants are located in the south. As I used earlier Honda has many plants in Ohio and is going to open one in Indiana. You better do some research for making that kind of assumption. Not all the plants are in low cost area's either. Even so a UAW worker in Arlington, Texas is way better off than a non-union transplant worker in San Antonio, and that isn't including benefits. Your assumptions puzzle me sometimes grbeck. I however do like you alot and appreciate the friendly debate.
Those nasty union dues of $45 a month cost you $540 a year even though you have free medical when you are working and nearly free when you retire. You also have a $37K a year pension with like I said medical, dental, prescription, optical, insurance. Your base salary is in the top 20% without over time while you are working. 1 1/2 hourly wage over 8 hours. 1 1/2 on Saturdays and Double Time on Sundays. If you work holidays you get double time plus holiday pay which equals to Triple Time. sub-pay paid by the union during a short-term lay-off.
Do you get those type of benefits at the Japanese transplants that are non-union ????? OHHHH I didn't think so..... I guess those awful $500 dollar yearly union dues add no benefit to you. GEEEEEEZZZZZZZZ grbeck !
The headquarters are all concentrated in the Detroit region - GM (Detroit), Ford (Dearborn) and Chrysler (Auburn Hills).
Okay you said factory's and didn't say HQ. And your point is.....????? The Japanese transplants are all HQ on a tiny island called Japan, so ????? What's your point ????? It's not like the Japanese HQ are thousands of miles apart. :confuse:
Ford and GM are international companies, although Ford appears to be doing a better job of allowing what is good about its foreign subsidiaries (Ford of Europe and Volvo and Mazda) to influence its domestic products.
I don't see what any of this has to do with our discussion ??? HQ's don't really mean anything of significants does it ?????
Honda has a big factory in Ohio, it is true, but its North American headquarters is located in California.
California isn't a expensive place to live ???? :surprise:
Torrance, California right ??? Honda, still is HQ in Japan and just because they have a HQ in California for the U.S. market doesn't make them a domestic company. Honda, like Toyota have made a impact on some local economy's here in the U.S. but have caused more damage than good because their government manipulates their currency so bad they have a very unfair advantage. If the transplants didn't have this currency advantage along with a home market that was closed to our imports I would gladly welcome their presence in our country since competition does improve products like y'all have noted. I just wished it could be more of a level playing field and not where one side makes such huge profit margins because our government refuses to act in our best interests. I also think it would be more of a challenge to see just how good the japanese really are at car making. Anybody can cheat and win. The question is could the Japanese, win in the auto buiz without these unfair advantages ?????? I guess we will never know.
I do doubt they would of expanded this fast without those advantages and thus would of gave the Big 3 ample time in this present day to react instead of getting the blitzkrieg attack
Rocky
Yep....It's a list I disagree with since like CR it's limited to subscribers and based on all the people I know on edmunds the majority of people in these forums tend to love imports.
How do the truly free thinkers make their auto purchasing decisions? I'd say that the average vehicle today sells for around $25k. Most people are going to attempt to be as informed as possible before making that type of investment.
That's where the problem lies. They try to educate themselves usually based on one or two reviews from company's like CR or edmunds. I'd reccommend J.D. over any other so-called independent tester since they don't limit their testing to subscribers. I personally believe many car magazines including CR recieve dollars for good reviews and market their magazine to their base which includes a majority of import buyers. Sure they will throw in a carrot once in a while to not look so biased like giving a review on a domestic vehical and then a few months later have some import come a long and kill it in every test. My god its more predictable than "Big Time Wrestling"
I will agree that CR tends to prioritize safety, reliability, and fuel economy over things like performance, handling and style. With that in mind it is still a valuable source of information that, IMO, should be included as part of the whole research process.
I suppose if you like reading reviews that are already scripted. Maybe many CR subscribers also like the WWF or WWE or whatever its called now ????? :P I also wonder if many CR subscribers are NASCAR fans. That sport is also choreographed like the WWF.
Now if your top priority is to buy domestic to protect UAW jobs then I'm not sure that represents enlightenment.
I like and buy UAW made cars because not only do they protect jobs but the domestics make cars I really like in styling, performance, price, warranty, and now high quality and reliability.
Rocky
With all the new investment sponsered by the Fed Res automotive production in NA is much higher than it was in the 90's. There are many many more vehicles being built here than before.....just not by union shops. That's the key difference. Automotive production in NA is at it's highest level ever!!
8 out 10 auto jobs are provided by the big 3 in this country
I know this is what you wrote but I know it's not what you meant to write. It's not true at all. Think about it!!
I know by this statement that you didn't read or understand the previous post about how the Federal Reserve helped US manufacturers over the last 35 years by manipulating the value of the US$ to assist in domestic production and aid exports. It missed you right?
Certain people that obviously have low IQ's and can't think for themselves need a biased media to tell them whats best for them thus they pick up the Koran otherwise known as Consumer Report to gain that knowledge. The other problem with americans is we hold grudges. We all know the big 3 made some bad cars in the past but what car company hasn't. The difference is people remember the bad cars made by domestic manufactors and give a free pass to car company's like Hyundai/Kia. I strongly believe you can trace that back to the anti-domestic media problem this country has. This biasness doesn't just happen with car company's and other examples can be shown in tools, machinery, clothing, athletes, art, furniture, etc etc etc.
Participate in the Midsize Sedan Comparison board here. No one but no one gives Hyundai a free pass on it's past quality nightmares. As a matter of fact it's their biggest hurdle to overcome. And they are not doing all that well.
Your words above are the words of a helpless victim or a victim-to-be. We are not victims. We know what is happening and we react with the times. If it means moving on then and being successful in other area's that's the American Way. Standing still and letting events overtake us is not our way. Don't be a whiner and don't be a loser. Move on and keep ahead of the crowd.
The detroiters are not going to close. Yes they are going to close their union factories as fast as they can but you can imagine why. All three have well establised programs to move as much production as possible to Mexico.
What you are really saying is 'Until the big three close [ all their union facilities ] because of it?'
This is a done deal on the part of the detroiters. The union knows it. The workers know it. The 'biased' press knows what GM/F/DC are doing. Shareholders can't wait for it to occur because profits will start to come back.
Oh, btw did you see the raves for the new lambda crossovers by the 'biased' press? Well maybe it's not that biased, right?
We even had a poster no longer here under their previous name post supposed sample questions of their convenience survey in the past. But the survey means nothing unless it's scientifically done and the results and the numbers for each car model are included with the information to help assess the possible deviation for that car model.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You do realize that J.D. Powers quality rankings put Toyota and Honda above any domestic brand? So that's another source that is saying what CR and Edmund's is saying. If everyone is stating the same thing at some point you've got to entertain the idea that its not rigged, manipulated, or paid for. It might actually be true. I'm not saying that the domestics are putting out junk. Some of their models are very good and they've made great improvements in quality. But, in general, their quality is still not comparable to Toyotas or Hondas and you don't overcome a bad reputation by being almost as good.
Do you have the link to that report by JDR. I always have trouble finding the reports from them.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The factor is athat all cars are within a much tighter range than they have been in past.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I agree and I never said otherwise and this same sentiment is echoed by CR.
I believe there is another JD Powers survey that is based on 3 years rather than 1st year. In this survey Cadillac, Buick, and maybe Mercury finished higher than Honda and Toyota. If this is the study that people want to use as the definitive, more scientific source for determining quality than I can go along with that. This study goes into more detail and ranks vehicles by type. Toyota is number one in small SUV, mid-size SUV, and large truck with the RAV4, Highlander, and Tundra respectively. That represents the domestics bread and butter.
I can go along with that if you count Mexico and Canada.
I know this is what you wrote but I know it's not what you meant to write. It's not true at all. Think about it!!
It is true a study done by Harbour Research.....well here's a link again to prove me right like normal :P j/k
http://www.uaw.org/resrch/06/harbour_felax1006.pdf ->my proof
http://www.uaw.org/resrch/06/harbour_felax1006.pdf
http://www.howtobuyamerican.com/ ->A good website that gets ya thinking about the real impact of what ya buy and who it really affects
Rocky
I don't care if our government helps us out. I don't want them helping out others out. I care mainly about my country and my citizens not theirs. If we can cheat to win I'm all for it
Participate in the Midsize Sedan Comparison board here. No one but no one gives Hyundai a free pass on it's past quality nightmares. As a matter of fact it's their biggest hurdle to overcome. And they are not doing all that well.
Would love to drop me a link please
Your words above are the words of a helpless victim or a victim-to-be. We are not victims. We know what is happening and we react with the times. If it means moving on then and being successful in other area's that's the American Way. Standing still and letting events overtake us is not our way. Don't be a whiner and don't be a loser. Move on and keep ahead of the crowd.
I agree with your words but don't agree with your approach. I want to win at everything. I don't want to give up anything we've gained to another country. I want to dominate and be the best we can be at everything and if the world gets left behind to benefit all my fellow americans then so be it. I guess thats the patriotic blood that runs through my veins.
Rocky
Like John Edwards said this morning when he annouced he was running for president and whom I'm most likely to vote for. We need universal healthcare coverage. It will keep and bring jobs back into this country. He also is for fair trade and I have no doubt he will take whatever policy actions to level the playing field for the big 3 so they can compete and stay in this country.
What you are really saying is 'Until the big three close [ all their union facilities ] because of it?
Do you really think the big 3 want to close all their plants here in the U.S. ???? I really don't !!!!! However they need to stay in business and make their share holders profits and that means closing some U.S. plants because of un fair advantages that foreigners have on us. It also doesn't help having a do nothing president and congress for 6-years when all 3 big 3 CEO's go to the white house and beg to make the playing field at least level. :mad:
This is a done deal on the part of the detroiters. The union knows it. The workers know it. The 'biased' press knows what GM/F/DC are doing. Shareholders can't wait for it to occur because profits will start to come back.
It's not a totally done deal. I only have to wait 2 more years to see if its a done deal. If Edwards is elected the big 3 will be coming back in the U.S.
Oh, btw did you see the raves for the new lambda crossovers by the 'biased' press? Well maybe it's not that biased, right?
Well they throw a carrot at ya us once in a while to attempt to shut people like me up. :mad:
Rocky
Like John Edwards said this morning when he annouced he was running for president and whom I'm most likely to vote for.
I'm sure you'll get that opportunity, ... in the primaries.
I also would build and expand Nuclear Power Plants plus expand solar, wind, hydrogen, ocean turbine technology's. Cold Fusion is another one worth investing R&D into.
The bottom line is we can make the middle east drink their oil if we wanted too. It's the right morale thing to do and we can be the leader in the prevention of global warming.
What about all those oil/gas workers that might lose their jobs ? They would have "preference" on being hired in alternative energy sectors. :P
Rocky
Rocky
I want to dominate and be the best we can be at everything and if the world gets left behind to benefit all my fellow americans then so be it. I guess thats the patriotic blood that runs through my veins.
I find that position borderline offensive. I consider myself to be a patriotic American but I can't adopt a mindset that basically says our standard of living and quality of life takes precedence over all non-Americans and if they must sacrifice in order for us to achieve this objective, so be it. What the hell did you do to become an American other than being born lucky? We can adopt all the protectionism we want and our trading partners will do likewise. Eventually there will be no international trade. Is that what Lou Dobbs advocates?
Your posts today have been spiralling somewhat out of control. Have you been hitting the bottle?
Hey, we finally agree on something. I don't believe we could do it in a year or even 20 years but that's no reason we shouldn't start now.
Well I'm sorry you feel that way. I think we americans do way to much sacrificing and don't get anything in return but closed markets and currency manipulation from country's like Japan, even though we protect their butts. They can protect themselves for all I care. The sad thing is you support these economic policy's and root very strongly for the away team. :confuse:
What the hell did you do to become an American other than being born lucky?
I am lucky but could of been just as lucky and been born in Norway. :shades:
We can adopt all the protectionism we want and our trading partners will do likewise.
Many of them already do. Many of the country's we trade with already tariff our goods. your arguemnt is nothing more than a straw-man arguement because we the United States of America is the only country that's capable of surviving on our own without any help. We have all the natural resources and technology to be independent in a worse case scenario. If we really needed something we could invade and take over like we have done in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Eventually there will be no international trade. Is that what Lou Dobbs advocates?
Lou, un like you advocates fair trade. That is what I've been advocating all day long with you. You obviously disagree and give the standard line of "the domestic just need to improve their products" line. Somehow you can't grasp the fact that it's much more than just that to be competitive and survive. :confuse:
Your posts today have been spiralling somewhat out of control. Have you been hitting the bottle?
I love how you accuse me of hitting the bottle. :surprise: After arguing with you all day I wished I had. :P
You can sometimes be enough to drive somebody to drink with how often you "spin" peoples posts. I however have had fun debating with you at times even though we rarely agree.
Rocky
Rocky, this is where you and I completely agree. We just see getting there in completely different ways. You think that by tariffs we will improve the sales for domestic companies. Reality is just the opposite - that this sort of thing encourages mediocrity. Having your back to the wall is the best way to force you to take things seriously, to make a company fight, get mean and tough, and prevail. When my son wants candy, I don't always give him candy! He'd eat it all day and become fat and diabetic if I let him - just like the domestic auto manufacturers did! I tell my son to eat his vegetables! Well it's time for Ford and GM to eat theirs too! Because in the end it will be better for them!
Ford's back is up against the wall, and GM is starting down a more serious improvement plan because of the competition. I want the American companies to be the best, too. I'm frankly disgusted by their decades of shoddy output and I want to see them suffer to the point of making major improvements and becoming the best in the world. And tariffs are NOT the way to do that! Quit whining, quit bitching, and make a better product!
I guess we disagree on how fast the task could be accomplished. I think 5 years is actually more realistic on my part to get it done.
Rocky
I never said tariffs are the ultimate fix but rather a idea or practical solution that other country's use to protect their domestic interest from foreigners wanting a piece of the pie. On another note the tariff idea of mine was a counter balance to the currency manipulation the Japanese refuse to change. If the Japanese didn't cheat by manipulation then I would have absolutely no problem keeping as free of a market as possible.
So after reviewing my post you and I might not disagree with me as much as you think.
Rocky
That is ultimately the fault of these companies' management, who apparently can't figure out who to do what it takes to be successful.
Giving tariffs to the Big 3 would be like giving a winning lottery ticket to a chronic junkie who has become accustomed to living on handouts. Give them a bailout without a path to improving their products and cleaning up their leadership, and the cash will only delay their inevitable slam into the proverbial wall.
Tariffs would cost us all dearly, and I, for one, don't want to throw my good money after bad on fixing what ails them, being that they seem unwilling to help themselves. I'm of the opinion that the best thing that could happen to GM would be bankruptcy -- it would force a housecleaning, and bring the attention of outsiders to what really is going wrong with the company.
Rick Wagoner may feel that he accomplished something by keeping out Ghosn, but that was a Pyhrric victory at most. The cars need to be better, the distribution has to become more efficient and the branding needs to be cleaned up. I would never support a bailout without first getting all of the bums tossed out, at least half of the cars cancelled, and some people in the driver seat who actually know something about managing failed companies.
Rocky
P.S. Regardless of how bad you think the big three are they deserve to have the oppertunity like all business the right to play on a level field especially with foreign competition at the very least.
I guess I don't buy the whole currency manipulation argument. I don't see why the American manufacturers couldn't have good quality vehicles, even if the price was higher. The market has shown that making great vehicles will allow you to charge a higher price. Look at BMW, or even Honda and Toyota.
I am coming to a reluctant belief that we need to do something about the healthcare situation, however. I think you and I agree on that one. :P
They've had tons of advantages over new entrants, they blew it.
1. They had domestic loyalty, especially in the earlier years.
2. They had government loans (Chrysler), voluntary quotas (Reagan, in the 80's).
3. They had huge profitable SUV market in the 90s. They could have put their profits into building world-class cars. They didn't deliver AT ALL.
How much help to you give to a pair of basket case companies. 20 years? 30 years? When is enough? I think they should sink or swim. Those that survive will be making really good product.
Well there is just one problem the world isn’t fair is it? Honestly all countries manipulate currency to their benefit. The US government thinks that having the dollar less than the yen is fine. As it benefits consumers (the vast majority do neither work for the big 3 nor work for a company that supports them). If GM and Ford should go out of business tomorrow, I might shed a tear for them, but frankly life will go on perhaps even better than before with people being put to more useful work.
I think you have been reading too much UAW stuff. I am a pro-union guy and even I think the UAW is part of the problem. Why can’t the UAW take some of those Union dues and unionize the Toyota plants? Why does the UAW seem to fight to keep jobs that are no longer needed?
However making a profit via currency manipulation sound pretty hard to do. The idea behind currency manipulation is to have the foreign products sell for less than the domestic ones. However Toyota and Honda sell for more than the domestics. That alone would remove any advantage. In addition Toyota and Honda make many of their cars here and must pay workers in dollars removing still more advantage.
I think Toyota and Honda do have a bigger profit margrin, but profit margin isn’t the domestics problem. Their problem is they just can’t sell their cars period. If they could sell their cars they wouldn’t be loosing market share. They have burned too many people with low quality products for too long and it is going to take a while to get a reputation for quality.
The facts about alledged currency manipulation don't go back near far enough. If you do it right and go all the way back to the 70's then a midsized sedan made in the US should go for about $60000 on the world market. The Fed has manipulated the currency in our favor to drive the price down to the low $20K range.
I'll go along with your auto jobs stats when you show me the BLS figures.
That 'Harbour Report' you mention is not the Harbour Report so often used in the auto industry. Your UAW 'Harbour-Felax' report could have been written by Billy Joe Harbour and Willy Felax.
All you've provided is one pov from the UAW. That's not data that's nothing more than an opinion like these on this forum.
You diverted this thread originally into one asking that tariffs need to be imposed in order to level the playing field. Which is it? You want the help or you don't. It seems that when the fact are shown that the govt has been helping all along for 30 years or more ..well I dont want any help. All the UAW has done is to give you and your friends part of the picture and said 'See how bad off we are. We're victims' They didn't show you the whole picture and neither did you think to inquire further.
Link to which about Hyundai? Their sales are up but leveling off but a good deal of them are to fleets in order to keep the plant running. The market prices tell all. If the Sonata's ( which btw are very good cars now ) were flying off the lots
a. they wouldn't need a high volume of fleet sales
b. they wouldn't need to be the lowest of all sedans on the market.
Even though the current Sonata may be just below the CamCord's and equal to the Fusion and above both the Sebring and old Malibu it being given away due to Hyundais's past sins.
Except for high-margin vehicles like trucks and some SUV's you're darn right I think they want out of the US. The sooner the better. The stockholders are demanding it. "Get us some profits or get the hell out'.
In that other forum someone already posted something about a confidential Ford memo to invest $18 Billion in Mexico. Wait didn't they just get half of the US workforce to quit? GM is no longer producing Saturns in Tenn, they are being moved to Mexico and assembled on the Opel Astra platform along with the HHR. GM is going to use the TN plant for high margin lambda crossovers.
Ditto Chrysler. It's like someone pulled the plug on the UAW bathwater somewhere around El Paso and all the jobs are being drained to Mexico..... Except for the new ones that Toyota and Honda can save by building new plants here.
You heard the words today but missed the meaning. Edwards is positioning himself to the left of Hillary the warhawk who's no longer interested in helping the poor working stiff. Edwards is trying to be the Teddy Kennedy of this century. True left-leaning near-socialist democrats stay 'blue' and don't wander too far into the center.
No way is he a conservative in anything.
First of all, we have a growing demand for jobs, Im sure they can get a new one. For some reason people dont understand that. And dont get me going on "global warming"
lets start talking about cars
So after reviewing my post you and I might not disagree with me as much as you think
Tariffs don't work. Look at the steel industry. I was in it for 25 years. Back in the late 80's when tariffs were imposed on most of our trading partners in steel the Big Integrated mills breathed a sigh of relief ... then turned around and stuck the 'tariff knife' in the gut of the auto industry. "Hey you can't buy Canadian, Japanese, German or French high quality steel any longer, so now you've got to pay our prices..heh heh heh..twist, twist."
What was the result for the Big Integrateds? Bethlehem dried up and blew away..'poof gone'. Armco was bought out. LTV disappeared and it's assets were bought on the auction block by an Indian named Mittal. Only US Steel is left and it's in a life and death struggle with..... US mini mills.
Now the tariffs are gone as of last month.
1. They had domestic loyalty, especially in the earlier years.
2. They had government loans (Chrysler), voluntary quotas (Reagan, in the 80's).
3. They had huge profitable SUV market in the 90s. They could have put their profits into building world-class cars. They didn't deliver AT ALL.
How much help to you give to a pair of basket case companies. 20 years? 30 years? When is enough? I think they should sink or swim. Those that survive will be making really good product.
No 3 Is a key point. Rocky you act like the detroiters have been ICU patients for their entire lives. Back in the 80's & 90's they figuratively lit their cigars with $1000 bills. It'a ALL gone now! There's none left!!
Add No 4. During the 80's and 90's they also had the US Govt tilting the playing field in their favor by driving down the value of the US currency. You saw the graph I posted from the Fed right? The playing field is now level for the last 10 years or so but the UAW wants it tilted again.
How's this for level... the US$ and the Japanese Yen are in exactly the same place now Jan 1 2007 as they were on Jan 1 1997. Nothing has changed!!!
Here's the link US$ vs Yen 1997 vs 2007
I mean more than the yen..ugh
No...they will survive, but as much smaller and leaner companies. As others have amply displayed here, the problem is the management of these companies, and the resulting product miscues that have resulted because of said (mis)management of these companies, not trade policies or currency manipulation.
When Alan Mulally went to Ford, he was shocked to discover that that North American unit had no business plan, and that various departments were not communicating with each other.
That is incredible in a 21st century multi-billion, international enterprise. It also shows that this problem started in Detroit, and must be solved in Detroit.
rockylee: What are you afraid your japanese imports price will go up because toyota, won't lower their prices enough to compensate for a tariff because the japanese manipulate their currency ???? It would be shocking to there bottom line if they had to settle for real world profit margins like the big 3 have done for years. You might then just see some cost cutting from toyota. This is not what you want to happen, right ? Why should the big 3 only have to suffer ???? If its good for one, then its good for all.
A company's profit margin is determined by the efficiency of its operations and what people will pay for its products. Toyota makes more profits on its vehicles because it is a better run company than GM or Ford. This is reflected in the desirability of its vehicles, which command higher prices than comparable GM and Ford products.
Incidentally, what "real world" profit margins from GM and Ford are you talking about? They have been LOSING money for the past year! No company wants to lose money.
rockylee: Yeah that was back when some company's were cooking the books. I suppose some still are since Bush, has done very little to prosecute these criminals. You could throw Delphi's board of directors in jail but nothing yet has been done and they like many others will walk free like O.J.
The problems of many telecommunications and technology companies were brought to light by the collapse of the tech boom. And the last time I checked, Enron's Ken Lay was found guilty, but died before sentencing, several of his lieutenants were found guilty or made plea bargain deals with the federal prosecutors and have also been sentenced, and Bernie Ebbers of Worldcom was also sentenced to jail for over 20 years, which, given his age, effectively constitutes a life sentence.
Looks like the federal government - i.e., the Bush Administration - did prosecute those white-collar criminals.
rockylee: OTOH, I don't see any evidence that our economy is any stronger now than in 2000-01. The stock market doesn't reflect the overall health of the economy as many economist have said. I guess you have forgotten already about the war in Iraq and its price tag. I guess adding trillions in debt to the deficit is just okay because we can pass it down like a heirloom to our children.
You are running together three unrelated subjects - the health of the economy, the war in Iraq and the deficit (which has been declining, and is actually in line with historical figures). Unemployment is down, productivity is up and even incomes of the lower level workers have started to increase.
The U.S. economy is much bigger than GM, Ford, Chrysler and their suppliers.
rockylee: I was referring to the number of autoworkers left in this country.
Which will decrease no matter what, because successful companies use fewer inputs (including labor) to increase output (the finished product). Fortunately, the transplants are hiring here in the states, which picks up some of the slack.
rockylee: You know that is hawg wash !!!! Not all the plants are located in the south. As I used earlier Honda has many plants in Ohio and is going to open one in Indiana. You better do some research for making that kind of assumption. Not all the plants are in low cost area's either. Even so a UAW worker in Arlington, Texas is way better off than a non-union transplant worker in San Antonio, and that isn't including benefits. Your assumptions puzzle me sometimes grbeck. I however do like you alot and appreciate the friendly debate. Union dues are 1 1/2 hour of your wage a month. $45 a month if you are making $30 an hour. The UAW workers have about a $9-11 an hour advantage over toyota workers assuming both employees have worked for the company at least 10 years. Which company would you realistically rather work for ?
This has been discussed extensively on this site, and the difference isn't as great as you portray.
As for which company would I rather work for? The one most likely to stay in business.
rockylee: I don't see what any of this has to do with our discussion ??? HQ's don't really mean anything of significants does it ?????
Yes, they do, because they set the corporate culture, and Detroit - let alone the industrial Midwest - is hardly on the cutting edge of trends and style. Many GM products are "Exhibit A" in that regard...
rockylee: California isn't a expensive place to live ????
So...do you see a max exodus of Honda employees because of living costs?
rockylee: Honda, still is HQ in Japan and just because they have a HQ in California for the U.S. market doesn't make them a domestic company. Honda, like Toyota have made a impact on some local economy's here in the U.S. but have caused more damage than good because their government manipulates their currency so bad they have a very unfair advantage. If the transplants didn't have this currency advantage along with a home market that was closed to our imports I would gladly welcome their presence in our country since competition does improve products like y'all have noted. I just wished it could be more of a level playing field and not where one side makes such huge profit margins because our government refuses to act in our best interests. I also think it would be more of a challenge to see just how good the japanese really are at car making. Anybody can cheat and win. The question is could the Japanese, win in the auto buiz without these unfair advantages ?????? I guess we will never know.
These points have all been effectively rebutted by others on this board.
I guess that "My Buick runs great and everyone is biased against the domestics in general and GM in particular, so therefore GM builds reliable cars and it's all the fault of those currency manipulating Asians anyway" is a much more scientific way of determining the reliability of various makes.
Check out "The Quest for Cosmic Justice" by Thomas Sowell. Fantastic reading, and provides extensive evidence for the impossibility of ever creating a truly level playing field for anyone.
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Surely we're not just relying on anecdotal testimony of relatives, friends, and neighbors, are we?
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a. currency manipulation;
b. unfair and unfree markets;
c. unfair advantages (non-level playing field);
d. cheating;
e. their govt helps while our govt does nothing
Did I miss anything?
Even though facts ( not opinions ) have been presented to you to show that none of this is true, why do you continue to retype the same statements? Saying it / writing it over and over again and over again doesn't suddenly make it true if it wasn't true at the beginning.
If you wake up every morning and state..
a. the world is flat;
b. the sun rises in the North;
c. the Cubs will win the WS in my lifetime;
d. the detroiters are not leaving; the detroiters are not leaving; the detroiters are not leaving;
e. 1+1 = 5
Just saying these over and over again doesnt't make any of them true.
You are not thinking for yourself and you are not seeing the whole picture. Now if you say 'I don't care what the real picture is, I just want the status quo to continue in order to protect what my family has.' Then that is a valid and justifiable statement.
There is no problem with that statement because it's truthful and based on reality. Your others are not. The others are twisted facts by the UAW propaganda machine to try to instigate the membership.
It's also foolish to believe that certain makes are indestructible. Just last night I came back from a friend's house in NE Pennsylvania. I stopped at a Sunoco a few miles from my place to fill up. A bronze-colored 2007 Camry was sitting at the pump in front of me with no driver. I imagine the guy was inside the store paying the attendant. I was waiting and waiting until a man in a Sunoco tanker truck told me to go around the Camry because it died at the pump and was waiting to be towed. I then saw the somewhat embarrassed Camry driver sheepishly staring out the store window.