Tariffs to Help Domestic Manufacturers?

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  • lemonhaterlemonhater Member Posts: 110
    “...and rarely rely on sources such as CR to make my decisions. Buick has been excellent to me all the way back to my first purchase of an automobile 25 years ago. I recommended Buick to my girlfriend and she then bought the LaCrosse which has also turned out to be an excellent car.

    It's also foolish to believe that certain makes are indestructible. Just last night I came back from a friend's house in NE Pennsylvania. I stopped at a Sunoco a few miles from my place to fill up. A bronze-colored 2007 Camry was sitting at the pump in front of me with no driver. I imagine the guy was inside the store paying the attendant. I was waiting and waiting until a man in a Sunoco tanker truck told me to go around the Camry because it died at the pump and was waiting to be towed. I then saw the somewhat embarrassed Camry driver sheepishly staring out the store window. “

    Actually this sums up another problem for the domestics quality wise. Their quality is uneven across product lines. Buick right now(and probably in the past) probably ranks near or above Toyota and Honda quality, but I suspect other lower cost models probably get hit hard quality.

    While it is true that no make is indestructible, buying one bad car from ANY manufacturer is enough to turn anyone against that Manufacturer permanently. My experience of Toyota has been cars that last a long time and don’t have a lot of unexpected costs. The Mercury Escort and Tempo my mom had back in the 80ies were enough to make anyone never buy a Ford again.
  • smittynycsmittynyc Member Posts: 289
    I would really like to see this question answered as well.

    I mean, if there's some sort of conspiracy by CR and others to prop up the Japanese makes at the expense of the domestics, its roots grow frighteningly deep -- all the way to the professional wholesale buyers who are willing to pay more for the Japanese makes at auction, and to the preponderance of independent mechanics who recommend Japanese makes for trouble-free driving.

    Scary indeed.

    Of course, it's always possible that the Japanese makes are, on average, more reliable and trouble-free, and the survey results, market values, and editorial opinions reflect that. That's the conclusion Occam would have arrived at, anyway.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    I'm wrong about the currency manipulation and yes the market is perfectly level and even. The economist that say otherwise are a buncha liars on the currency manipulation issue and should be muzzled. GM, Ford, Chrysler, should just make relavent products that people want to buy and should be tariffed if Consumer Reports doesn't think they are up to spec. Unions like the UAW are evil and are do nothing groups for the working class in this country and should be hung or get the electric chair. We should hire illegal aliens, give them citizenship, ex-uaw's social security card, a drivers license, and a job in the domestic automobile plants and send the ex-UAW workers to the court house to be hung a long side of Rick Wagoner. :sick:

    Rocky
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H EdmundsAdministrator Posts: 11,132
    yes the market is perfectly level and even

    I know you're using hyperbole for illustration purposes; however, the point is that I'm not saying that the market is perfectly level and even. I'm saying, "why should it be?" and "why is it the government's job to make sure it is?"

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  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    Rockylee -

    When Japanese companies build plants in the United States, they must play by U.S. laws and compete in the U.S. Labor market for employees. They're not paying 'poverty wages' by any means. Here's a article from BusinessWeek in Feb 2006 that you might find interesting:

    BUSINESSWEEK

    As far as the production cost advantage of the Japanese in Japan, there aren't many (if any) new Japanese Car production plants being built in Japan. Why? Because non UAW American labor is cheaper than Japanese labor. Japanese workers are too expensive nowadays.

    "In 2005, average monthly income per worker's household was 522,629 yen (based on households of two or more persons, where the head of the household was employed by a corporation, government office, school, factory or store, excluding corporative administrators; the average worker's household had 3.44 persons; and the average age of the head of household was 46.9 years). Compared with the previous year, average monthly income per worker's household decreased by 1.4 percent in nominal terms and 1.0 percent in real terms. More than 80 percent of such income was accounted for by the income of the household head."

    I'll do the math for you - that's an average household annual income of $53,149 (using 118 Yen to the dollar)

    Japanese Government Statistics on Income

    For the United States:

    Real median household income remained unchanged between 2003 and 2004 at $44,389
    U.S. Census Data

    So the Japanese don't have an advantage in wage costs either in the U.S. or Japan

    I'm curious.

    Would you (if you were the UAW) be willing to give up $5 an hour to help your (GM) employer? Would you be willing to give up $1 an hour? UAW workers make about 15% more per year than the average household.

    Average UAW salary without overtime: $51,000 to $53,200Wall Street Journal via Post Gazette

    Would you (if you were the UAW) be willing to close the job banks that are strangling the big 2.5 given that choice instead of lowering current employee wages?

    What say ye? What are you willing to do to help yourself?

    To paraphrase John Kennedy:
    Ask not what your country should do for you (tariffs), ask what you can do for your employer to make the business profitable.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    I'm saying, "why should it be?" and "why is it the government's job to make sure it is?"

    Kirstie,

    That's like me saying why didn't General Motors back in the 1970' buy Ford and chrysler out and anyone else that dare threaten them ???? Well for one Kirstie, we have anti-trust laws in place that OUR government put in place so a large company such as GM, couldn't buy up everything. Microsoft, had a monopoly on the computer software deal and used to pay Apple computer over a billion dollars a year just to keep them in business so he could claim he had competition.

    All I'm saying is guys/gals I believe the government has a major role to play in business. I honestly believe our manufactoring base is very important to this country. GM, Ford, Chrysler, are american business even though the Germans own a good stake in chrysler. I also feel if we just hand the foreigners our auto-industry without a good fight then whats next ???????

    Dubai, wanted control of our sea ports and the president was trying to give them the no-bid contract instead Dubai, has taken it a step further and gained access to some of our military installations and the media says nothing. :surprise: Well except for Lou Dobbs. ;)

    China has boughten up so much infrastructure in this country that our military veterans are probably rolling in there graves. :sick: They also have over 6000 company's in this country used as bases for spying. Our government knows this but for some odd reason does nothing. :confuse:

    I'm not claiming to have all the answers but do believe it's very important to not only level the playing field for american business but feel its very important to protect and keep good jobs in this country which makes the health of this country stronger. A tariff like I said was an idea not the ultimate fix per se. ;) I know many of you hate the big 3 and just wished they would all go belly up and we could all drive nothing but imports. I do think competition is good and improves products for the consumer when we compete against another country at the very least on a level playing ground something that isn't happening right now with our current trade rules with china. They not only have a huge labor advantage on us but they also disregard trademarks/copyrights and also manipulate their currency. The Japanese at least pay the majority of their workers a liveable wage and yes its true they left unionized japan for the cheaper labor of american workers in the south whom were very easy to manipulate because they still paid them more money than they ever had and they make contributions to their local church. General Electric used similar strategy in Holland Mi back in the 60's and 70's. The Japanese transplants remind very much of the story line in the movie "Fire Down Below" with Steven Segal. ;)

    So I guess the bottom line is we will either do something to protect american business from third-worlders or we will let most of it disappear and either off-shore or close. We will then have to depend on other country's and governments for our essentials. :sick:

    The big 3 then will Brickland, Chery, Geeley :D -"Thats Great, Just Wonderful" :cry:

    Rocky
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H EdmundsAdministrator Posts: 11,132
    I don't hate the big 3. My bro-in-law works for one of the big 3.

    However, if he were to lose his job because
    1) he was forced to take a pay cut or look elsewhere, or
    2) his company downsized because their product is no longer deemed as desirable as others by consumers,
    I would still not want any of my tax dollars going to make sure he kept a job that the market doesn't demand. He wouldn't ask for them either.

    This may very well become reality for him. He's aware of his company's problems and is preparing himself by gaining additional skills and by feeling out the job market for other opportunities before the market is flooded with others of his ilk; i.e., before he is forced out.

    This is smart planning, IMO - change with today's market rather than trying to force the market to change.

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  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Chrysler becomes the WalMart of the auto industry...

    WSJ today..Chrysler to sell Chery cars

    Not only is GM doing it from it's Korean partner now it's Chrysler. I'm telling you they are reaching back into the room and just about switching off the lights here.
  • john500john500 Member Posts: 409
    as long as all of the money goes directly to my bank account. I'll make sure that at least 1 % is properly distributed to displaced automotive laborers and retirees, I promise.
  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    Rockylee: "The Japanese at least pay the majority of their workers a liveable wage and yes its true they left unionized japan for the cheaper labor of american workers in the south whom were very easy to manipulate because they still paid them more money than they ever had..."

    From the BusinessWeek article above which you didn't read:

    In a region where the average manufacturing wage still runs around $12 an hour, Nissan's jobs are coveted. Even though the plant isn't unionized, Nissan starts workers at $14.19 an hour, including what Nissan calls a "guaranteed bonus" of $1.25 an hour. They top out after five years at $23, just a few bucks less than United Auto Workers earn in Detroit. Benefits are close to union scale, too.

    So good wages, good benefits, no union dues. The UAW is losing jobs but American workers who aren't UAW are doing very well. America isn't losing jobs they're just moving to a different place.

    You never did answer my question above:

    Would you (if you were the UAW) be willing to give up $5 an hour to help your (GM) employer? Would you be willing to give up $1 an hour? UAW workers make about 15% more per year than the average household.

    Average UAW salary without overtime: $51,000 to $53,200Wall Street Journal via Post Gazette

    Would you (if you were the UAW) be willing to close the job banks that are strangling the big 2.5 given that choice instead of lowering current employee wages?

    What say ye? What are you willing to do to help yourself?
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H EdmundsAdministrator Posts: 11,132
    That sounds so familiar. Oh wait! Very similar-sounding assurances have oft been vomited from the lips of politicians :)

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  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Good to see ;) To be fair...

    a. OK there is currency manipulation, every big player does it to aid themselves. The US is the single biggest player and over 30+ years, in conjunction with it's partners, they have helped out economy BOOM!

    b. Some of this fantastic growth in productivity and output in the US is actually unfair to those who work in older facilities with bloated structures ( Jobs Bank ). It is very fair to new more mobile, more flexible, leaner facilities. All the major players understand this, Govt, Management, Union Leaders, Press, etc. It does hurt the workers though no question about that.

    The sales market is very very fair. In most cases the imported and transplant products are sold at a higher price than the domestically made products. If they were not then you would have a complaint. You walk into a Consurmer Electronic store and see a $1499 LCD TV and a $1999 LCD TV. You can choose whichever one you like. Ditto with the auto industry.

    c. The field is level. The detroiters made HUGE fantastic profits during the 90's because they had the entire truck and SUV market to themselves. Where a midsized car can generate $1000 profit a big rig can generate $10,000 to $15,000 profit. The three of them had all of this to themselves for nearly 20 yrs... and the union had a great agreement and good compensation during that time. Having a monopoly on a hot product is a pretty good position to be in. Dontch think?

    d. No one is cheating. It's too easy to find out.

    e. See item b. above. For 30 years the US govt has been trying to stimulate our economy and stock market and all our exports while keeping inflation in check. They have done a fantastic job of it.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    When Japanese companies build plants in the United States, they must play by U.S. laws and compete in the U.S. Labor market for employees. They're not paying 'poverty wages' by any means. Here's a article from BusinessWeek in Feb 2006 that you might find interesting:

    Never said they were paying poverty wages. :confuse:

    "In 2005, average monthly income per worker's household was 522,629 yen (based on households of two or more persons, where the head of the household was employed by a corporation, government office, school, factory or store, excluding corporative administrators; the average worker's household had 3.44 persons; and the average age of the head of household was 46.9 years). Compared with the previous year, average monthly income per worker's household decreased by 1.4 percent in nominal terms and 1.0 percent in real terms. More than 80 percent of such income was accounted for by the income of the household head."

    I'll do the math for you - that's an average household annual income of $53,149 (using 118 Yen to the dollar)


    And your point is...... :confuse:

    For the United States:

    Real median household income remained unchanged between 2003 and 2004 at $44,389
    U.S. Census Data

    So the Japanese don't have an advantage in wage costs either in the U.S. or Japan


    You are wrong because they do via manipulation. :mad:

    http://www.forexblog.org/2006/08/us_automakers_a.html

    http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org/fact-sheet-yen.htm

    I'm curious.

    Would you (if you were the UAW) be willing to give up $5 an hour to help your (GM) employer? Would you be willing to give up $1 an hour? UAW workers make about 15% more per year than the average household.


    It's already happening. My Aunt is a full time Delphi employee and only makes $14 an hour with zero benefits until febuary of 07. The contract has already been discussed and skill trades whom are the highest paid are likely to make in the low $20's for an hourly wage and will have a 401K for retirement. The deal is about done on the Delphi side for the UAW. They will also have to pay a portion of their health insurance and my aunt has said her top wage will likely be about $16-17 an hour. Screw Machine operator will only see $18-19 an hour. Skill trades $20-23 an hour. Expect similar but slightly higher pay scales at GM plants in he U.S.

    Average UAW salary without overtime: $51,000 to $53,200Wall Street Journal via Post Gazette

    That is about accurate. ;) That average however doesn't include the new temp-hires who are making anywhere from $14-$33 an hour with zero benefits well until March of 07'. That average will go down much further once the reduction of wages show up after March.

    Would you (if you were the UAW) be willing to close the job banks that are strangling the big 2.5 given that choice instead of lowering current employee wages?

    Both will happen anyways.....

    What say ye? What are you willing to do to help yourself?

    To paraphrase John Kennedy:
    Ask not what your country should do for you (tariffs), ask what you can do for your employer to make the business profitable.


    "Well we union employees ask in return that our employer give us secure jobs for our sacrifices and not engineer junk and send it down the assembly line. We also ask our employer to do more business in the united states and quit sending our jobs to Mexico or China." -I'm saying what your average union worker would say if he was asked to give certain benefits he earned over the years to help his company out. Bill Ford asked the UAW to give up certain benefits years ago and promised to improve certain benefits after they returned to profitability. He did keep his promise to the Union. I'm positive he will do the same next contract. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    Kirstie,

    depending on what state you live in your Tax dollars have already reached one of the Transplants. :confuse: Your Tax dollars have reached big oil that our government still is giving them subsidies even as they make record multi-billion dollar profits each quarter. :confuse:

    I along with the big 3 CEO's aren't asking for a hand-out Kirstie, but ask that our government steps in and levels the playing field. I've posted several links proving manipulation does occur in this forum and just because we are able to get away with it doing it to the Europeans, doesn't give the Japanese the right to do it to us without saying "hey wait a minute" ;)

    I also wish your BIL god speed and hope he is able to keep his good job. I'll keep my fingers crossed for him. :)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    kd,

    If the big 3 do dissapear from the U.S. market I will probably buy European cars made by union employees. :sick:

    Rocky
  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    If the big 3 do dissapear from the U.S. market I will probably buy European cars made by union employees

    That you would by a BMW made in Germany by Unionized workers and not a BMW car made in the U.S. by American nonunionized workers?????? :confuse:
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    From the BusinessWeek article above which you didn't read:

    I did read your right-winged article lokki.

    So good wages, good benefits, no union dues. The UAW is losing jobs but American workers who aren't UAW are doing very well. America isn't losing jobs they're just moving to a different place.

    You are obviously very blinde. Do those almost union scale workers have retirement health care ????????????
    Oh you are going to pick-up that tab with your tax dollars via medicare or medicaid. :D The transplants also haven't even came close to providing as many jobs as the big 3 has lossed. That Matching 401K you boast about is like sticking your money on a roulette table in Vegas. Anyone who thinks they will become Millionaires via a 401K plan today is plain foolish. :mad:

    You never did answer my question above:

    Would you (if you were the UAW) be willing to give up $5 an hour to help your (GM) employer? Would you be willing to give up $1 an hour? UAW workers make about 15% more per year than the average household.

    I did answer it........Can you read ????? The process has already started and the cuts are way more than the 15% you mentioned. The only reason the transplants pay remotely close to union scale is because of fear of the UAW. You'd be fooolish to think they are paying close to union scale in hourly wages out of the kindness of their heart when they could get plenty of workers to work for $15 buck an hour but then chance the UAW to come organize them. If the UAW or other unions wern't around they would pay as little as they could get away with but since the UAW has went to the transplants and tried to organize them Nissan and others responded by giving employees a big pay raise.

    "Why am I the only one who can see through the smoke and mirrors" ????? Am I the only one with
    common sense left ???? :surprise:

    Average UAW salary without overtime: $51,000 to $53,200Wall Street Journal via Post Gazette

    Would you (if you were the UAW) be willing to close the job banks that are strangling the big 2.5 given that choice instead of lowering current employee wages?

    What say ye? What are you willing to do to help yourself?


    Again for the 2nd and final time its already happening..... The UAW president has openly stated he is going to fight to keep the jobs bank open but I think that is a tatic to keep/save other benefits. The company's aren't going to settle a contract without some major wage and benefits reductions next contract. This is obvious regardless if the Jobs Banks is on or off the table. The cost of hourly wages and benefits out weigh the jobs bank 10-fold. There won't be any employees in the jobs bank after next contract because the workers that were left in the program had 2 choice. Transfer to another plant or take one of the seperation packages. So the Jobs Banks program is a moot point when you hired tens of thousands of new temps to hire employees. :confuse:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    So now we are comparing two foreign made LCD TV's and that is suppose to reflect the domestic vs. import auto-industry ?

    OMG :surprise:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    If the big 3 do dissapear from the U.S. market I will probably buy European cars made by union employees

    That you would by a BMW made in Germany by Unionized workers and not a BMW car made in the U.S. by American nonunionized workers?????? :confuse:


    You got it because the europeans don't manipulate their currency to their advantage and they didn't have to cheat to succeed and ruin my country. To the best of my knowledge the BMW plant in Carolina in the only European Transplant in this country. ;)

    Rocky
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    people working for the big 3 feel that their wages aren't cutting it, then they have the right to look elsewhere, or go to school for additional education to better themselves.

    Your living in a continually shrinking world where the only way to make a living is in a unionized work place. MOVE ON, and find a different way of providing for your family.

    Seriously, you are like a dripping pipe.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    dhamilton,

    I don't work in the auto-industry. I am a DOE Security Police Officer and carry automatic weapons for my bread and butter. I've worked in the auto-buiz for Johnson Controls back in 1999. I grew up in the auto-buiz and most of my family was/is employed by GM and Delphi. My mother still works in the auto-buiz at Gentex Corp.

    I know you and I have different view points and I respect your opinion. I however think the auto-buiz is a very important part of this country and is a reflection of what makes us great and does provide a lot of jobs for people I know and will never meet.

    I also think unions are still important to this country. I know you obviously disagree with me. I'm not saying GM or the other 2 of the Big 3 is what makes this country tick but they shouldn't be forgotten about since their impact still does provide 1 job out of 10 in this country. That is still pretty significant IMHO.

    Rocky
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAMember Posts: 15,306
    Suppose Toyota and Honda DID manage to put the Big Three out of business? They have no obligation to keep their transplant factories in the United States open. They could simply pack up their stuff and head back to Japan.

    Sayonara, suckers!
  • pch101pch101 Member Posts: 582
    They'd have no reason to shut down a productive and profitable plant in the US. Next crazy conspiracy theory, please!
  • lemonhaterlemonhater Member Posts: 110
    Well it would make little business sense to do so. Having a plant in the market is an advantage. It helps reduce shipping costs/delays and endears you to those who work putting your cars together. It protects them from tariffs because their products are manufactured here. In addition pulling back to Japan might be more expensive than manufacturing in the US. Their worker probably get as much if not more benefits, Japan has sticker environmental laws and higher real estate prices and less land to put a factory. If anything I would see them doing what the domestic’s did and going south of the boarder.

    The domestics on the other hand want everyone to think of them as American when about the only American they are becoming is South American or Canadian.. They are closing plants in Detroit and opening them in places like Mexico! And you want me to spend my money patriotically to help some Mexicans or Canadians keep their jobs while shuttering US plants…Juzz
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,457
    To the best of my knowledge the BMW plant in Carolina in the only European Transplant in this country.

    Rocky


    Mercedes also has a factory in Alabama so the best of your knowledge is not very good.

    I am a DOE Security Police Officer and carry automatic weapons for my bread and butter

    That is a frightening thought.

    Suppose Toyota and Honda DID manage to put the Big Three out of business? They have no obligation to keep their transplant factories in the United States open. They could simply pack up their stuff and head back to Japan.

    Why would they do that?

    Overhead in the US is less then in Japan or Europe. They don't have the over supply problem that the domestics have. Many of their factories are at or near capacity so if tey close them down they would be able to keep up supply.

    It makes no sense to spend billions of dollars making the invenstments in factories in the US and then to pull out later.
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAMember Posts: 15,306
    ...Toyota and Honda would then have no obligation to pay the workers anything near a living wage. Without the Big Three and the UAW they can pay Wal-Mart wages and the transplant workers can take it or leave it.
  • pch101pch101 Member Posts: 582
    Without the Big Three and the UAW they can pay Wal-Mart wages and the transplant workers can take it or leave it.

    You don't seem to understand that the Toyota production system, which is built on team building and QC throughout the line, requires a higher level of worker than is what is required in a traditional Big 3 auto plant. Higher skills cost money, and no company can pay Wal Mart-level wages and attract the quality of worker needed in a Toyota-style plant.

    Ironically, the Big 3 can more easily afford to outsource, because their traditional building methods require less skill, which allows them to get away with a less educated, lower wage workforce. If the Big 3 were to change over their processes, the talents of the individual worker would play a greater role in the quality of the products it produced, which is one reason why you seem them shipping jobs to Mexico and other LDC's, while the likes of Toyota and Honda expand their production here.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Member Posts: 25,976
    >requires a higher level of worker than is what is required in a traditional Big 3 auto plant.

    So you're saying the workers at the Smyrna Nissan plant have higher level (of intelligence) of worker than other American brand manufacturing plants? That sounds like something someone named socala4 would have said on the forum in the past.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • pch101pch101 Member Posts: 582
    So you're saying the workers at the Smyrna Nissan plant have higher level (of intelligence) of worker than other American brand manufacturing plants?

    No, I'm saying that their intelligence is actually required for their jobs. Team-based building requires more proactivity than does repetitive work.

    That sounds like something someone named socala4 would have said on the forum in the past.

    Good for him. Sounds like a better idea than defending every dumb thing GM does, just because it's GM, while looking for a conspiracy theory under every bed or copy of Consumer Reports!
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Member Posts: 25,976
    Yeah. I can't believe how narrow-minded some people can be. Do you prefer German cars?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    Sayonara, suckers!

    Exactly....

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    Why not ????.....lemko does bring up a great point....Do they have a obligation to us americans ???

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    Well it would make little business sense to do so. Having a plant in the market is an advantage. It helps reduce shipping costs/delays and endears you to those who work putting your cars together. It protects them from tariffs because their products are manufactured here. In addition pulling back to Japan might be more expensive than manufacturing in the US. Their worker probably get as much if not more benefits, Japan has sticker environmental laws and higher real estate prices and less land to put a factory. If anything I would see them doing what the domestic’s did and going south of the boarder.

    lemon,

    I can somehow agree with you.....

    The domestics on the other hand want everyone to think of them as American when about the only American they are becoming is South American or Canadian.. They are closing plants in Detroit and opening them in places like Mexico! And you want me to spend my money patriotically to help some Mexicans or Canadians keep their jobs while shuttering US plants…Juzz

    Look at the cost of healthcare for your answer. All Big 3 CEO's say that is the biggest obstacle of doing business in the States. ;)

    Rocky
  • pch101pch101 Member Posts: 582
    You should learn about the history of automobile manufacture, so this wouldn't be such a surprise to you. The Ford-style production line was invented to eliminate craftsmanship in favor of repetitive action. This is different from the Toyota "lean production" system, which changed the level of the line worker to do multiple tasks and more proactive QC.

    That's why Toyota factories will not be leaving the US market anytime soon -- it has invested far too much money and effort to train workers like this. It cannot simply pull up stakes and relocate at a drop of a hat without product quality taking a dive.

    In comparison, Rick Wagoner would happily send every single job anywhere he could to save a buck. With traditional methods, the level of education or commitment of the workforce is not considered to be as important.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    Mercedes also has a factory in Alabama so the best of your knowledge is not very good.

    Okay then their is just 2....


    I am a DOE Security Police Officer and carry automatic weapons for my bread and butter

    That is a frightening thought.

    I'd like you to please explain why that is a frightening thought ?

    Why would they do that?

    Why wouldn't they ?????

    Overhead in the US is less then in Japan or Europe. They don't have the over supply problem that the domestics have. Many of their factories are at or near capacity so if tey close them down they would be able to keep up supply.

    It makes no sense to spend billions of dollars making the invenstments in factories in the US and then to pull out later.


    Yeah it does when you can go to China, and pay those people $0.50 an hour instead of paying americans $20 something an hour. You can make up most of those billions in a matter of a few years and don't have to deal with U.S. regulation.

    Rocky

    P.S. british_rover, I've never have critized your occupation and I'm very surprised you'd take the oppertunity to take a cheap shot at me. You might disagree with my views on the auto-industry but that shouldn't give you any indication on how good I'm at doing my job which I take a lot of pride in doing. :sick:
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    lemko,

    I really respect your view. You somehow are a throw back to a different era in your thinking. Many people today in this country look at the short-term and ignore the long-term impact. I know we both are dumb for thinking the way we do. :confuse:

    Rocky
  • pch101pch101 Member Posts: 582
    Yeah it does when you can go to China, and pay those people $0.50 an hour instead of paying americans $20 something an hour. You can make up most of those billions in a matter of a few years and don't have to deal with U.S. regulation.

    I believe that I've explained above why Toyota and Honda have a more compelling motivation to expand US production than do the Big 3. The transplants believe that worker quality is important, while the Big 3 effectively believe that just about anybody who can hold a rivet gun is good enough. Lean production requires a quality of worker that you can't just hire anywhere.
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAMember Posts: 15,306
    I'd MUCH RATHER have a guy like Rocky in possession of an automatic weapon than too many others around here. At least he'll stand his ground and won't drop his weapon and run when the foreign hordes come pouring over the borders to take everything we have.
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAMember Posts: 15,306
    The only reason Toyota and Honda can't take advantage of low-cost Chinese labor is because China hates Japan's guts.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    You don't seem to understand that the Toyota production system, which is built on team building and QC throughout the line, requires a higher level of worker than is what is required in a traditional Big 3 auto plant. Higher skills cost money, and no company can pay Wal Mart-level wages and attract the quality of worker needed in a Toyota-style plant.

    If that was so true then why has toyota opened up plants in Tijuana Mexico and China. those people aren't exactly educated. Give me a break with your hyperbole. :mad:

    Ironically, the Big 3 can more easily afford to outsource, because their traditional building methods require less skill, which allows them to get away with a less educated, lower wage workforce. If the Big 3 were to change over their processes, the talents of the individual worker would play a greater role in the quality of the products it produced, which is one reason why you seem them shipping jobs to Mexico and other LDC's, while the likes of Toyota and Honda expand their production here.

    They assemble cars no different than GM does at the Lansing Mi Cadillac Plant. They work in teams instead of doing one repetitive task. I don't think that requires a high I.Q. I have a few friends that got hired in at the Toyota San Antonio Tx plant and all said a monkey could do the job.

    Rocky
  • pch101pch101 Member Posts: 582
    Er, they already have plants in China.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    I liked Socala4, but even he would get out of touch with reality on just how smart you have to be to assemble a car. A gosh darn monkey can do it. you have to be some what smart to be a job setter, screw machine operator, work in the skill trades but just applying a part to a car requires little intellegence and just common sense.

    I'm very surprised so many americans think Japanese workers have higher I.Q.'s than big 3 assembly workers. If they had such a high I.Q. they would of voted in the UAW, so they could get some decent retirement benefits instead of relying on my tax dollars to take care of them. :mad:

    Rocky
  • pch101pch101 Member Posts: 582
    They work in teams instead of doing one repetitive task. I don't think that requires a high I.Q.

    It requires initiative, and an eye and concern for quality. An educated workforce is more likely to have those qualities.

    Henry Ford didn't want QC on the line, because he didn't want the line to stop, ever -- he regarded this as an inefficient, costly expense, and not as a benefit. The original Model T assembly lines had no QC at all, and that QC took place only on completely assembled products at the end of the line.

    This is completely the opposite of what Toyota does by having QC throughout the line. The emphasis is not on keeping the line moving, but on having zero defects, even if the line has to sometimes stop. This is a significant difference in approach, and explains why Toyota does a superior job -- because they catch defects early, and make sure not to repeat them on the rest of the batch.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    No I think he drives Japanese since their employees are so educated. ;)

    Rocky
  • pch101pch101 Member Posts: 582
    I'm very surprised so many americans think Japanese workers have higher I.Q.'s than big 3 assembly workers.

    You do realize that I didn't say this, don't you?
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    Wow, you really are brain washed by the Toyota Propoganda :surprise:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    So you think if toyota hires a lady with a masters degree she will be smarter than somebody that worked with machinery their whole life. My god, dude you need to think about what you are saying. I work with people that have college degrees that don't know where their dipstick is located at in their engine and you are going to sit here and paint a picture that because toyota prefers to hire college degree workers they are somehow smarter and better workers. Some of the dumbest people I've me have college degrees and having degree doesn't meccessarily make you intellegent or smarter than a non-college graduate. :confuse:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    Thank-you lemko.....If you haven't be able to tell I stand my ground on topics. I also would sacrifice my life just to save you and everyone else in my country. ;)

    Rocky
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaMember Posts: 5,194
    Suppose Toyota and Honda DID manage to put the Big Three out of business? They have no obligation to keep their transplant factories in the United States open. They could simply pack up their stuff and head back to Japan.

    Sayonara, suckers!


    Well, isn't that what Ford and GM are already doing? Adios amigos!
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    That is true but if you have looked within he last year both toyota and honda are building facility's in china for that market. Like you said if they knock off the big 3 what's stopping them from moving all their production to china, since that appears to be the next United States with a booming auto-industry. ;)

    Rocky
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