Argh. Rocky, they would rather hire high school graduates than semi-literate people with second-grade educations in third-world countries, particularly for building higher end products being sold in the US.
This is not propaganda, this is simply a fact. Type "lean production" and "Toyota" into your favorite search engine, and read up about it. Toyota offered the greatest advances to mass production since Cadillac's standardization of parts and Henry Ford's evolution of the assembly line. Give credit where it's due and learn from it, instead of rejecting it just because it wasn't invented here.
Well, isn't that what Ford and GM are already doing?
Not by choice as I've explained several times in the past. The big 3 after they do close the scheduled plants will still make the japanese look like a pimple on the impact one has on our country. If you've noticed the Japanese have moved their focus to other country's beside the U.S. and I wouldn't be surprised a bit if it takes awhile for a major plant to come to the U.S. after this San Antonio plant gets on-line. Toyota along with Honda seem very focused on the chinese market.
Automakers who want to play in China need to build in China, because of China's import restrictions. The major automakers are forming joint ventures with Chinese entities to jump into the game. I'n not aware of any of them that are exporting their Chinese-built vehicles beyond Asia.
I worked under Toyota's methods of building products and parts at Johnson Controls and yes a monkey could of done my job. It looks and sounds great on paper but that's all it really is. We had lean manufactoring classes, Kaizen, Six-Sigma, the whole ball of wax but at the end of the day it takes people that care about their job and most importantly it takes engineering to make sure the assemblers or makers of the part have a good quality product to make into a part.
Well many of you have said in the past that china has a open and free market. Why should they have "restrictions" and we should keep our market open and free. Doesn't make sense does it ?
at the end of the day it takes people that care about their job and most importantly it takes engineering to make sure the assemblers or makers of the part have a good quality product to make into a part.
Right, and that's why team building produces superior results -- because you are more likely to care if you are part of a team, and because the team members help each other out. That is NOT what is done on a traditional Big 3 assembly line.
Well that method is being applied to more and more domestic plants and I wouldn't be surprised if all the plants go to the team concept after contract in March. The UAW faught against it for all these years because they believed their would be less jobs. I admit it might of been a blunder on the UAW's part but even Ron Getterfinger the UAW president has said he is willing to work with the domestic car company's to make work rules more flexible and has done so at some of the domestic plants already.
Then why on earth should GM and Ford pay UAW workers extra high wages for a job that anybody can do?
Anybody can do the jobs if they have common sense and are allowed ample time to learn how to do the job with OJT time. My father had a helluva a time training his replacement and after 4 months dad said he was adequate at best and admitted to me Delphi was going to have problems a rise and the line will be shut down until they brain storm. The assembly line is brutual work at both at the domestic and transplants however it doesn't require a high degree of intellegence but a high degree of hand-eye cordination and attention to detail.
By the way, GM is selling all the Buicks they can build (in China) in China.
I agree the chinese made buicks appear very nice and I for one wished they would build that Buick Royaum over here because it's a nice RWD car that rivals or exceeds the luxury we have in many of our Cadillacs.
Why not ????.....lemko does bring up a great point....Do they have a obligation to us americans ???
Yes and No. They both are huge international companies with stockholders all over the world including banks, insurance companies and pension funds here in the US. Big companies can't/won't do such stupid things like you and lemko are suggesting. You both are so unaware of how big international companies operate it's scary.
You say some of the weirdest off the wall things when you get on this susbject. You're clueless.
really respect your view. You somehow are a throw back to a different era in your thinking. Many people today in this country look at the short-term and ignore the long-term impact. I know we both are dumb for thinking the way we do
Boyo, you hit the nail on the head with this post. Well done.
You are aware I'm sure from your voluminous reading of the current affairs of the auto industry that Honda is building a plant in Ohio, Toyota is building one in Ontario and is talking to Michigan about building another one there.
It's tough but you'll just have to accept the fact that the detroiters can't get away from the UAW fast enough. Everything the detroiters sell but trucks and SUV's will be made outside the US.
Let these stand as two examples of "zero defects" returning to reality.
>having zero defects, even if the line has to sometimes stop. This is a significant difference in approach, and explains why Toyota does a superior job -- because they catch defects early, and make sure not to repeat them on the rest of the batch.
The discussion about transmission problems must have not heard Toyota's technique of 'not repeating them on the rest of the batch' exists! :confuse:
Well that depends. If the problem is the part itself then no amount of careful assembly will fix that. I think this is another thing that tends to hammer the domestics more than the imports. Anyone can choose a bad part or have lousy engineering. It’s how you handle the problem. How quickly you contain and fix the problem will determine how it will impact your reputation in the eyes of the consumers.
A good example is the Tempo and it’s Freon leak. A design flaw that was never fixed. Year after year returning the car to the dealer to have Freon put in so that the air condition will work is very annoying. If Ford had solved this problem quickly I might look on them a tad better.
In this case Toyota if going to have to fix it soon. It has already lost some buyers that way. However from the old what will it take to save GM thread. It seems that for every one person Toyota ticks off, the domestics seem to tick off three.
I think that Toyota's halo is indeed slipping, and that if they don't fix this promptly, their sales are going to suffer for several years.
However, Toyota's problems aren't necessarily going to help GM. Toyota will simply join GM on the "don't buy" list. Mercedes is suffering this fate now. They've had a terrible run of quality problems for several years and it's catching up with them. However, the winner for Mercedes lost sales hasn't been Lincoln or (in most cases) Cadillac.
My uncle had been a Cadillac man for years, and switched over to Mercedes out of frustration. Unfortunately, he got one of the famous E class that had more electrical problems than a drunken Lucas electrician. He dumped it. Did he return to Caddy? No he bought a (wait for it)
Chrysler 300 Hemi instead. (But you all thought I was going to say Lexus, didn't you?)
Yes and No. They both are huge international companies with stockholders all over the world including banks, insurance companies and pension funds here in the US. Big companies can't/won't do such stupid things like you and lemko are suggesting. You both are so unaware of how big international companies operate it's scary.
You say some of the weirdest off the wall things when you get on this susbject. You're clueless.
Have you ever stopped and listened to yourself ???? Anyone can pretend to sound smart. I think this is one of those cases.
Toyota, can give a rat about the international community. They only care about making money and to be #1. I know some of you guys believe the ad campaigns presented by toyota and swallow that garbage hook, line, and sinker.
You are aware I'm sure from your voluminous reading of the current affairs of the auto industry that Honda is building a plant in Ohio, Toyota is building one in Ontario and is talking to Michigan about building another one there.
Yes kd, I'm aware. I do read the detnews "auto-insider" quite often along with other internet sources. Last I new the Engine plant that might go in Benton Harbor, Michigan was at a stand still.
It's tough but you'll just have to accept the fact that the detroiters can't get away from the UAW fast enough. Everything the detroiters sell but trucks and SUV's will be made outside the US.
I disagree because Bill Ford Jr. and Rick Wagoner both have admitted in the Detroit news they would like to build modern plants in the U.S. but will only do so if the UAW loosens up their work rules and allows the workers to work in teams like the Lansing, Cadillac Plant.
Now there is an image builder. Looks like Chrysler is heading towards the final decade. From Neon to Chery, oh great. Are they looking for the tough image of Hemi, Dodge RAM trucks, SUV and mini SUVs with an attitude, bold full sized cars for Chrysler/Dodge, interesting special cars like the PT, or are they now trying to be the low cost leader in cheapo cars from China? Which is is? All of the above? Makes sense for China Chery, it is pretty hard to set up a network of dealerships. Don't see how it helps Chrysler, but I am sure they have a plan. Or should this be in the plural, as in plans? Where is the consistency here?
This is going to lower the bottom for pricing with China entering the market. How will Hyundai react? Will Americans buy the product? Perhaps it turns out to be a brilliant marketing move, and I am but an idiot for not seeing the future.
As for tariffs - I would say as needed, if the company is proven to be dumping just to get market share. At that point, the big two may have to ammunition to get some tariffs in place. Would not to too anxious to enter into tariff wars however. -Loren
You bring up a good point. What benefit does DCX get in helping Chery with their dealership network ? I never heard of DCX buying a percentage of Chery, unless DCX is getting shairs of stock in return ?
What's so amazing to me is it was about a month ago DCX, was mad at the chinese for copying there "Smart" and cloning Chin-E Benz's.
I guess I'm :confuse: about these steps made by DCX ? Perhaps like the old saying goes "there is more than meets the eye" ? :surprise:
As for tariffs - I would say as needed, if the company is proven to be dumping just to get market share. At that point, the big two may have to ammunition to get some tariffs in place. Would not to too anxious to enter into tariff wars however.
The only foreign company that probably could be accused of that is Hykia to the rental fleets. However Toyota did some "dumping" last year according to a article I read earlier this summer. I also wouldn't be surprised some dumping takes place this year by Toyota so they can take the top spot from GM.
Rocky, you are very wrong on this one. For many years, every single line worker on the Buick production line had a colledge degree . . . may still be the case today.
Personally, I do not believe the Chinese/Soviet education system turn out the best entreprenuers in a free market place. However, for staff work, 300,000 engineers each year (as in new graduates of of Master of Engineering and Bachelor of Engineering programs) do represent a significant source of human resources, that either our western capital take advantage of or leave to the old soviet style weapons labs.
The average college graduate in China makes about RMBY20-30k; GM production line jobs pay just about that, or a litle more. So GM can indeed pick and choose.
Why should american workers accept extra LOW wages so that the extra profit goes to Detroit, Tokyo, Berlin, or wherever? Certainly you can't think that those lower costs would equate to lower prices? I am amazed at how hypocritical we can be in America. Whine and cry and piss and moan about not getting an extra $.50/hr in our pay, then turn around and cry because the electrician charged us $40/hr for his/her services. If we want a decent wage, we should expect to pay a decent price for things. Why should the UAW concede things when the CEO's of these companies are making MILLIONS, and getting free perks like free use of the corporate jet for vacations. Even if Toyota's CEO over in Japan doesn't make the money our CEO's make, they still have more cash reserves than the next 5 automakers COMBINED! Why not share some of that with their employees in the form of a pension? Why should they even have to ask? You know why? At the end of the day, it's still a dog eat dog world out there. And while I offer no end all solutions to our problems, there are still 2 ways we can stick up for ourselves: Bargain as a group, or beg as an individual. How would you rather have it?
Okay just a quick follow up as I read more of your post. As far as science and math are concerned, Chinese education system is actually significantly ahead of today's American education system all the way through high school; the emphasis being today. Caculus, at least pre-calculus, used to be a required course in most school districts back in the post-Sputnik 1950's and 60's in the US. Today, a lot of American college graduates get their BA's without ever facing caculus. China more or less copied the British and Soviet math and science curricula from the 50's and 60's, stayed with it. China has a national curriculum (which BTW I'm against for a different reason) that stipulates Caculus in the 11th and 12th grade High School. What's covered in the SAT (as a reflection of general baseline competence at 11th and 12th grade in the US) is fully covered by the end of 7th grade in the Chinese national curriculum. They do hold kids back for not passing curriculum tests.
The American education system is much more diversified. In general, it pulls ahead in the third year of college, when students in specialized fields start to get some of the best education in the world in these fields, especially at graduate school. In contrast, since a national curriculum is impossible at college level and beyond as specialization takes place, the Chinese education system seems to suffer complete paralysis. Their colledge, graduate and post-gradute programs are pathetic both due to lack of funding and as a result of the best students and teachers seeking to build their careers in a more pomising environment. Not a surprising result of "free education" and government sponsorship of jobs instead of a free-market driven skill-honing institutions.
They did. Because the Shanghai GM job offerings at the time (late 1990's) was more than double what the average college graduate could expect in China. The recruiters literally had several college graduates fighting for every single position. Faced with a "meritocratic" society (not necessarily true merit, but the piece of paper showing strict adherence to merit template, i.e. diploma) that China always believed in, the recruiters had to fill all positions with degree holders, lest there be a riot. China had been an "exams" based society for over a thousand years before the 20th century. Education is big there (the relevence of the content is a different story :-)
The average is irrelevent. The top 25% of Chinese population constitute a population of 300 million by itself. The son of a rice farmer can stay behind farming rice or stitching soccer balls for our kids for all I care, it's the sons of college professors that end up getting the jobs at Shanghai GM. Shanghai GM only needs a few thousand workers, to be chosen from a city population of 15 million (18 times that of Detroit), none of whom grew up on a rice farm. It's also a city that has 30+ colleges and universities, turning out over 100,000 college graduates every year. The best part? The average pay of those 100,000+ college graducates is less than what Shanghai GM offers!
I have no idea what kind of education you received, Rocky. I got my first 9 years of education in China. That was enough to place me out of first year of college, at one of the best engineering schools in the US, no less, through AP tests in every math and science subject there was. I spent a year in an American High School in order to take these AP tests, and marked my time by picking up AP credits in Computer Science, American History and English along the way so I don't have to take Freshmen and Sophomore college classes in those either. Was I smarter than the son of a rice farmer in China? I have no idea. The son of a rice farmer never had the opportunity. I always competed against other sons of college professors. The first son of someone who made a living with their hands that I met was the college roommate I had in the US. Coming from upstate New York (of central European descent if you have to know), he never dreamed bigger than learning some technical skills then going back to work for his dad before meeting me. Glad I inspired him to dream bigger, much bigger; he is actually a lot smarter than I am. So don't ever under-esitmate the intelligence of someone unknown just because they don't have the opportunity.
A funny incident when my wife was teaching high school: after I helped out with some science project at the local school, one of her students asked "Are Asians all so smart?" "No," was my answer "you only got to meet the smart ones." In other words, it's a sampling bias; so long as transportation is expensive, the well travelled ones tend to be the smart ones. Likewise, GM only needs to hire the best in China. The average labor quality of the whole country is irrelevent; only the best available for the price is relevent.
I take it you are of Chinese descent ???? I will tell you this you seem to be very educated. However you and I just often disagree on domestic policy for this country which is fine.
A funny incident when my wife was teaching high school: after I helped out with some science project at the local school, one of her students asked "Are Asians all so smart?" "No," was my answer "you only got to meet the smart ones."
Well many many americans including a couple of my friends really think Asians are the brightest people on Earth. It angers me hearing them say such things.
You know what else? I'd rather have the CEO's make millions on some years and make $1 on others depending on company performance, and get no hearing from the country's President, than have the corporate capitains make relatively small sums on paper but have access to their employees' private parts, control the community through the Yakuza, and control the national government itself through political machination. Why? Because if power is distributed and allocated in units of money, it can be traded and reapportioned based on competence and in increments; Raw political power is neither divisible nor transferrable without violence, and highly prone to monopoly.
A "decent wage" is highly dependent on what it can buy. $10k a year is a stupendous level of income in 1925, when a car cost $250; that's the sort of salary only a high level corporate executive made. $10k a year today can't even pay for a baby sitter. Decent level of income can only be meaningfully measured by what the money can buy. That means, more products need to be available for purchase in the market place at the first place. Labor unions and "protective" tarrifs are both terrible ideas that restrict supply and bring down overall living standards.
Yes, I'm a naturalized American Citizen of Chinese descent. It pains me sometimes to witness my adopted homeland (the US) being pushed into directions that China was infamous for. Market intervention by the government has a 2000 year history in China. The ideas of labor unions, social welfare, price control, tarriffs, and anti-trade policies all have been tried numerous times ever since the time of 8 AD in China (yes, when Jesus Christ was still walking the eath), all inevitably leading to economic catastrophies.
Well many many americans including a couple of my friends really think Asians are the brightest people on Earth. It angers me hearing them say such things.
The bell curves overlap so much that no meaningful line can be drawn along racial lines. What your friends are witnessing is sampling bias. They may want to know that the average Chinese think Americans are a lot smarter than themselves, for the same reason: the travelling population that they come into contact with first-hand tend to be the smarter ones.
BTW, my username "brightness" is a simple word play on the anglicized family name, not a boast at all.
Labor unions and "protective" tarrifs are both terrible ideas that restrict supply and bring down overall living standards.
brightness, you know your full of B.S. saying that labor unions bring down standards of living overall. Labor unions are the only reason why manufacturing wages are still at a reasonable level. Non-union business like yours is forced to pay a reasonable wage or possibly your employees will get fed up and organize. I could perhaps see a argument for tariffs lowering the standard of living for all but even those arguments haven't yet convinced me that it's not a responsible alternative to the un free and unfair market we have in place now. We as a nation are becoming two classes. Rich and Poor. As more and more americans go from the middle class to poor they will get angry and will fight until somebody does something about it. You perhaps already know about these incidents since you have studied history. If Capitalism leads to a two-class system in this country then the majority of poor people will revolt and either communism or socialism as a form of government will come to fruitition. I have history on my side to back me up and the poor will take from the rich. So the greedy capitalist better change there ways or face the consequences.
Where did you read that Buick line workers all had college degrees some years ago. Hard to believe. One would have to ask why would one need a college degree to work a factory line job. And if they took classes in economics, perhaps they knew of the fate of big three after overpaying in wages and benefits going forward. Personally, I would like to have a motivated worker, with knowledge of the job at hand, more so than someone with a master degree in blah, blah, blah. Education is a wonderful thing, yet you can also have as many educated idiots, as those with the skills to handle real life. It is all in the game, and I would say for in their youth, getting a degree is important to play the game. But a degree to put A nut on B bolt is a stretch. -Loren
Comments
This is not propaganda, this is simply a fact. Type "lean production" and "Toyota" into your favorite search engine, and read up about it. Toyota offered the greatest advances to mass production since Cadillac's standardization of parts and Henry Ford's evolution of the assembly line. Give credit where it's due and learn from it, instead of rejecting it just because it wasn't invented here.
Rocky
Rocky
Not by choice as I've explained several times in the past. The big 3 after they do close the scheduled plants will still make the japanese look like a pimple on the impact one has on our country. If you've noticed the Japanese have moved their focus to other country's beside the U.S. and I wouldn't be surprised a bit if it takes awhile for a major plant to come to the U.S. after this San Antonio plant gets on-line. Toyota along with Honda seem very focused on the chinese market.
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Right, and that's why team building produces superior results -- because you are more likely to care if you are part of a team, and because the team members help each other out. That is NOT what is done on a traditional Big 3 assembly line.
By the way, GM is selling all the Buicks they can build (in China) in China.
Ain't one American bolt in 'em.
Rocky
Rocky
Anybody can do the jobs if they have common sense and are allowed ample time to learn how to do the job with OJT time. My father had a helluva a time training his replacement and after 4 months dad said he was adequate at best and admitted to me Delphi was going to have problems a rise and the line will be shut down until they brain storm. The assembly line is brutual work at both at the domestic and transplants however it doesn't require a high degree of intellegence but a high degree of hand-eye cordination and attention to detail.
Rocky
I agree the chinese made buicks appear very nice and I for one wished they would build that Buick Royaum over here because it's a nice RWD car that rivals or exceeds the luxury we have in many of our Cadillacs.
Rocky
Yes and No. They both are huge international companies with stockholders all over the world including banks, insurance companies and pension funds here in the US. Big companies can't/won't do such stupid things like you and lemko are suggesting. You both are so unaware of how big international companies operate it's scary.
You say some of the weirdest off the wall things when you get on this susbject. You're clueless.
Boyo, you hit the nail on the head with this post. Well done.
Helllooo reality check... they use Chinese workers because they are building the vehicles for the Chinese market.
Here is a shock also there are millions of people in China who are smarter and better educated and more capable in a factory than you are.
It's tough but you'll just have to accept the fact that the detroiters can't get away from the UAW fast enough. Everything the detroiters sell but trucks and SUV's will be made outside the US.
htown1, "2007 Toyota Camry Problems & Repairs" #2686, 28 Dec 2006 11:51 am
Let these stand as two examples of "zero defects" returning to reality.
>having zero defects, even if the line has to sometimes stop. This is a significant difference in approach, and explains why Toyota does a superior job -- because they catch defects early, and make sure not to repeat them on the rest of the batch.
The discussion about transmission problems must have not heard Toyota's technique of 'not repeating them on the rest of the batch' exists! :confuse:
Regression to the mean.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
A good example is the Tempo and it’s Freon leak. A design flaw that was never fixed. Year after year returning the car to the dealer to have Freon put in so that the air condition will work is very annoying. If Ford had solved this problem quickly I might look on them a tad better.
In this case Toyota if going to have to fix it soon. It has already lost some buyers that way. However from the old what will it take to save GM thread. It seems that for every one person Toyota ticks off, the domestics seem to tick off three.
However, Toyota's problems aren't necessarily going to help GM. Toyota will simply join GM on the "don't buy" list. Mercedes is suffering this fate now. They've had a terrible run of quality problems for several years and it's catching up with them. However, the winner for Mercedes lost sales hasn't been Lincoln or (in most cases) Cadillac.
My uncle had been a Cadillac man for years, and switched over to Mercedes out of frustration. Unfortunately, he got one of the famous E class that had more electrical problems than a drunken Lucas electrician. He dumped it. Did he return to Caddy? No he bought a (wait for it)
Chrysler 300 Hemi
instead. (But you all thought I was going to say Lexus, didn't you?)
You say some of the weirdest off the wall things when you get on this susbject. You're clueless.
Have you ever stopped and listened to yourself ???? Anyone can pretend to sound smart. I think this is one of those cases.
Toyota, can give a rat about the international community. They only care about making money and to be #1. I know some of you guys believe the ad campaigns presented by toyota and swallow that garbage hook, line, and sinker.
Rocky
Time will prove lemko, and I, weren't the dummy's. Some of us look outside our shell
Rocky
Yes kd, I'm aware. I do read the detnews "auto-insider" quite often along with other internet sources.
It's tough but you'll just have to accept the fact that the detroiters can't get away from the UAW fast enough. Everything the detroiters sell but trucks and SUV's will be made outside the US.
I disagree because Bill Ford Jr. and Rick Wagoner both have admitted in the Detroit news they would like to build modern plants in the U.S. but will only do so if the UAW loosens up their work rules and allows the workers to work in teams like the Lansing, Cadillac Plant.
Rocky
Chrysler 300 Hemi
instead. (But you all thought I was going to say Lexus, didn't you?)
So he bought another Mercedes. :P
Rocky
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
>Honda is building a plant in Ohio
Where is Honda building the plant in Ohio?
I thought their last proposed plant is being built near Greenwood, IN.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Yes that is true. Remember seeing it in the detnews ?????
I do.....
Rocky
This is going to lower the bottom for pricing with China entering the market. How will Hyundai react? Will Americans buy the product?
Perhaps it turns out to be a brilliant marketing move, and I am but an idiot for not seeing the future.
As for tariffs - I would say as needed, if the company is proven to be dumping just to get market share. At that point, the big two may have to ammunition to get some tariffs in place. Would not to too anxious to enter into tariff wars however.
-Loren
You bring up a good point. What benefit does DCX get in helping Chery with their dealership network ? I never heard of DCX buying a percentage of Chery, unless DCX is getting shairs of stock in return ?
What's so amazing to me is it was about a month ago DCX, was mad at the chinese for copying there "Smart" and cloning Chin-E Benz's.
I guess I'm :confuse: about these steps made by DCX ? Perhaps like the old saying goes "there is more than meets the eye" ? :surprise:
As for tariffs - I would say as needed, if the company is proven to be dumping just to get market share. At that point, the big two may have to ammunition to get some tariffs in place. Would not to too anxious to enter into tariff wars however.
The only foreign company that probably could be accused of that is Hykia to the rental fleets. However Toyota did some "dumping" last year according to a article I read earlier this summer. I also wouldn't be surprised some dumping takes place this year by Toyota so they can take the top spot from GM.
Rocky
Personally, I do not believe the Chinese/Soviet education system turn out the best entreprenuers in a free market place. However, for staff work, 300,000 engineers each year (as in new graduates of of Master of Engineering and Bachelor of Engineering programs) do represent a significant source of human resources, that either our western capital take advantage of or leave to the old soviet style weapons labs.
The average college graduate in China makes about RMBY20-30k; GM production line jobs pay just about that, or a litle more. So GM can indeed pick and choose.
Thank-you.......... A great post indeed
Rocky
I seriously doubt every Buick production worker had a college degree. I don't know that for a fact but lets just say I'm very skeptical on that one.
Rocky
The American education system is much more diversified. In general, it pulls ahead in the third year of college, when students in specialized fields start to get some of the best education in the world in these fields, especially at graduate school. In contrast, since a national curriculum is impossible at college level and beyond as specialization takes place, the Chinese education system seems to suffer complete paralysis. Their colledge, graduate and post-gradute programs are pathetic both due to lack of funding and as a result of the best students and teachers seeking to build their careers in a more pomising environment. Not a surprising result of "free education" and government sponsorship of jobs instead of a free-market driven skill-honing institutions.
I'm with ya now..........
Rocky
The average is irrelevent. The top 25% of Chinese population constitute a population of 300 million by itself. The son of a rice farmer can stay behind farming rice or stitching soccer balls for our kids for all I care, it's the sons of college professors that end up getting the jobs at Shanghai GM. Shanghai GM only needs a few thousand workers, to be chosen from a city population of 15 million (18 times that of Detroit), none of whom grew up on a rice farm. It's also a city that has 30+ colleges and universities, turning out over 100,000 college graduates every year. The best part? The average pay of those 100,000+ college graducates is less than what Shanghai GM offers!
I have no idea what kind of education you received, Rocky. I got my first 9 years of education in China. That was enough to place me out of first year of college, at one of the best engineering schools in the US, no less, through AP tests in every math and science subject there was. I spent a year in an American High School in order to take these AP tests, and marked my time by picking up AP credits in Computer Science, American History and English along the way so I don't have to take Freshmen and Sophomore college classes in those either. Was I smarter than the son of a rice farmer in China? I have no idea. The son of a rice farmer never had the opportunity. I always competed against other sons of college professors. The first son of someone who made a living with their hands that I met was the college roommate I had in the US. Coming from upstate New York (of central European descent if you have to know), he never dreamed bigger than learning some technical skills then going back to work for his dad before meeting me. Glad I inspired him to dream bigger, much bigger; he is actually a lot smarter than I am. So don't ever under-esitmate the intelligence of someone unknown just because they don't have the opportunity.
A funny incident when my wife was teaching high school: after I helped out with some science project at the local school, one of her students asked "Are Asians all so smart?" "No," was my answer "you only got to meet the smart ones." In other words, it's a sampling bias; so long as transportation is expensive, the well travelled ones tend to be the smart ones. Likewise, GM only needs to hire the best in China. The average labor quality of the whole country is irrelevent; only the best available for the price is relevent.
I take it you are of Chinese descent ???? I will tell you this you seem to be very educated. However you and I just often disagree on domestic policy for this country which is fine.
A funny incident when my wife was teaching high school: after I helped out with some science project at the local school, one of her students asked "Are Asians all so smart?" "No," was my answer "you only got to meet the smart ones."
Well many many americans including a couple of my friends really think Asians are the brightest people on Earth. It angers me hearing them say such things.
Rocky
You know what else? I'd rather have the CEO's make millions on some years and make $1 on others depending on company performance, and get no hearing from the country's President, than have the corporate capitains make relatively small sums on paper but have access to their employees' private parts, control the community through the Yakuza, and control the national government itself through political machination. Why? Because if power is distributed and allocated in units of money, it can be traded and reapportioned based on competence and in increments; Raw political power is neither divisible nor transferrable without violence, and highly prone to monopoly.
A "decent wage" is highly dependent on what it can buy. $10k a year is a stupendous level of income in 1925, when a car cost $250; that's the sort of salary only a high level corporate executive made. $10k a year today can't even pay for a baby sitter. Decent level of income can only be meaningfully measured by what the money can buy. That means, more products need to be available for purchase in the market place at the first place. Labor unions and "protective" tarrifs are both terrible ideas that restrict supply and bring down overall living standards.
Yes, I'm a naturalized American Citizen of Chinese descent. It pains me sometimes to witness my adopted homeland (the US) being pushed into directions that China was infamous for. Market intervention by the government has a 2000 year history in China. The ideas of labor unions, social welfare, price control, tarriffs, and anti-trade policies all have been tried numerous times ever since the time of 8 AD in China (yes, when Jesus Christ was still walking the eath), all inevitably leading to economic catastrophies.
Well many many americans including a couple of my friends really think Asians are the brightest people on Earth. It angers me hearing them say such things.
The bell curves overlap so much that no meaningful line can be drawn along racial lines. What your friends are witnessing is sampling bias. They may want to know that the average Chinese think Americans are a lot smarter than themselves, for the same reason: the travelling population that they come into contact with first-hand tend to be the smarter ones.
BTW, my username "brightness" is a simple word play on the anglicized family name, not a boast at all.
brightness, you know your full of B.S. saying that labor unions bring down standards of living overall. Labor unions are the only reason why manufacturing wages are still at a reasonable level. Non-union business like yours is forced to pay a reasonable wage or possibly your employees will get fed up and organize. I could perhaps see a argument for tariffs lowering the standard of living for all but even those arguments haven't yet convinced me that it's not a responsible alternative to the un free and unfair market we have in place now. We as a nation are becoming two classes. Rich and Poor. As more and more americans go from the middle class to poor they will get angry and will fight until somebody does something about it. You perhaps already know about these incidents since you have studied history. If Capitalism leads to a two-class system in this country then the majority of poor people will revolt and either communism or socialism as a form of government will come to fruitition. I have history on my side to back me up and the poor will take from the rich. So the greedy capitalist better change there ways or face the consequences.
Rocky
-Loren
It took me a very long time.
Rocky
Rocky