Honda Fit

dudleyr

I know people who are looking at both the Fit and Civic.

I think a 50 mpg Fit is doable, but it will eat into hybrid sales to some degree.

Yes the government should reward results of technology not the technology itself. A hybrid Suburban would get the same tax benefit as a Civic or Prius despit still being a guzzler. This is absurd.

georget

Correction on the mileage of the Ford Escape Hybrid. Instead of the 24 MPG it gets 36 MPG city / 31 MPG highway.

George

nippononly

there is a proper sport version of the Fit, with better seats and suspension/tires. Maybe an EX-type Fit, perhaps with a moonroof? I want a 45 mpg car, but I do like moonroofs and good handling! This car is a shoo-in for good handling, what with its Honda engine and shifter and low weight.

It would be cool if they offered an HF again, like the CRXs of old that could easily top 50 mpg in daily driving. This model would have the smaller 1.3L engine, would get over 50 mpg on the highway, and would be stripped to keep weight down. Basic CD radio, manual windows and mirrors, A/C optional.

And what of the talk I heard a while back, that the actual CRX name would be revived? Will that be a 3-door Fit variant, or will it be based on the now-much-larger Civic? Or was that just unsupported rumor?

plekto

I don't think it would eat into Hybrid sales at all. Honda does pretty mediocre as it is in hybrid sales, and 90% of the people who do buy one aren't interested in pure economics. Also, a midsize 50mpg car is totally different than a 50mpg economy car in terms of marketing and who buys it.. No sales lost there, either.

Plus, exactly how *few* Insights are sold every year? You could cut 50% of its sales off and not even be a blip on Honda's bottom line, it sells so few of them.

But, 50mpg, ABS, side airbags, decent interior, and not some Korean or who-knows-where-it's-built piece of junk - for 14K? Get out that hammer, because it's going to be time to put the nails in Hyundai's coffin. That is, IF they offer the smaller engine as an option.

Even if they only offer it as an option and sell 90% 1.5L engines, it's still a huge marketing plus for them, like the Metro did years ago. Few people actually bought the 3 cyl LSI stickshift model compared to the 40mpg ones, but it put Geo firmly on the map at the time. For Honda, it would even hurt Pruis sales, I bet - and last I checked, Toyota and Honda compete against each other. There's little if any cooperation between them.

micweb

You said, in part:

It would be cool if they offered an HF again, like the CRXs of old

Dude, in the past five years Honda could barely sell HFs and HXs - the premium over a DX or LX wasn't worth it to most consumers. I still maintain most people buy hybrids due to the "fad factor." Just like people drove up the prices of Rabbit diesels during the '80s gas crisis.

stickguy

I agree that Honda needs to offer an EX version with a few niceties (alloys, moonroof) if they really want to sell them. Yes, many people want high MPG today, but they aren't all cheap/poor/whatever and require a minimalistic car. I (and many others like me) won't buy a car without a moonroof, even if I decide to downsize to a mini size car like a Fit. heck, most Minis (the real one) come with moonroofs.

How about 3 models? Small engine/stripper for the budget crowd, 1.5l basic (LX grade) for the slightly less frugal crowd, and a 1.5l EX for people like me that like small and fun to drive, but won't give up all our goodies when we downsize.

dudleyr

Of course the HX being the most practical Civic was sold in the least practical body style (2 door coupe).

A 4 door HX would have sold well. I know several people who would have bought one had it been available.

raychuang00

there is a proper sport version of the Fit, with better seats and suspension/tires. Maybe an EX-type Fit, perhaps with a moonroof? I want a 45 mpg car, but I do like moonroofs and good handling! This car is a shoo-in for good handling, what with its Honda engine and shifter and low weight.

I can see two versions of the Honda Fit for the US market, especially if they use the new SOHC i-VTEC engine I mentioned earlier. The 1.3-liter version rated at 95 bhp will be for the economy crowd (overdrive 4th and 5th gears for manual and economy-minded CVT operation) using 175/65R14 tires and the 1.5-liter version rated at 110-115 bhp for the sporting crowd (only 5th gear overdrive for manual and more performance-oriented CVT operation) using 185/55R15 tires.

The car's handling will actually be quite good, mostly because the placement of the fuel tank just below the floor of the center of the car results in surprisingly low center of gravity, very necessary for decent handling. However, expect Honda to careful redo the suspension tuning for better ride quality on American roads (one of the few complaints about the Fit/Jazz is its somewhat stiff ride, something not desirable for American driving conditions).

mebman

I know that the fit will hurt sales of the Toyota Prius. I have been waiting for the fit to arrive for years since I first saw it in Scot land on vacation. I bought a Prius this year to replace my wife's SUV. But I would have definitely bought a Fit instead of a Prius if I could have. In fact I will probably trade in her Prius for a fit when It becomes available.
The Prius is a bit more refined but it ought to be for over 10k more, and it really doesn't have any more room inside than the Fit/Jazz I saw in Scotland. My 2000 Accord EX will also be replaced with a Fit ASAP.

nippononly

the HX of the last few years was actually cheaper than an EX, even cheaper than an LX, wasn't it? I am talking Civic now. So there wasn't really a "premium" for buyers.

But to confirm, for the HF I was talking about a stripper version with the smaller engine and without most of the appointments. Not only would this reduce price to make it the least expensive member of the line, but it would also reduce weight for added fuel economy.

Mine would be the EX, and it would be so cool if Honda had better seats in this one for fast driving. The COG being so low sounds real good, and 185/60/15 tires on such a small car would be more than enough for good handling. OK, maybe 195/60/15 - it is moderately high-roofed, after all.

I want fun-to-drive with the fuel economy of a Prius, don't mind doing without all the doo-dads and fancy whatchamacallits that are in the Prius. Keyless start, HIDs, NAV? Don't need that garbage. Would like cruise though - hopefully that would be in a Honda car with the EX badge.

kagedude

Example:
In the city (l/100 km): 6,8
Outside the city (l/100 km): 4,7
Combined (l/100 km): 5,5

I would have never identified that as the fuel ratings. Thanks. So what does the 1.5 engine translate to in MPG?

kagedude

Two seperate vehicles - no overlap. Trust me - the person who wants a Fit isn't looking at a Civic, and vice-versa. Honda need not fear loosing sales since the two are so different from each other.

I am actually that person that sees the Fit and the Civic Coupe as the same "fun" car. I'll wait for the Fit before I decide which Honda I like. Have you seen some of the Fit pics from Japan? They look real nice in the "pocket rocket" mode. So obviously, I hope the Fit comes to satisfy both frugal and mini car enthusiasts. Like the Mitsubishi Mirage with the VL (Value Leader) model and the Turbo. Civic with the hatchback SI. Honda can make everyone happy.

tgozdalski1

honda is always conservative with their official specs. all textbelow is copied from fitfreak.net

Stock 1.5L VTEC Jazz does a 16.6sec standing quarter mile.

The Honda official 12 secs to 100km/hr is very conservative with consistent runs of 8.9sec being achieved with the CVT auto. See http://asia.vtec.net/Reviews/JazzVtec/index.html

Some comparisons lifted from Aug 2004 Australian wheels magazine
0-60km/h
Fiesta Ghia (4.5sec)/Barina CD (5.0sec)/Jazz VTi (4.2sec)/Mazda 2 Neo (4.5sec)
0-100km/h
Fiesta Ghia (10.7sec)/Barina CD (11.7sec)/Jazz VTi (9.3sec)/Mazda 2 Neo (10.4sec)
0-400m(1/4 mile)
Fiesta Ghia (17.3sec@128km)/Barina CD (17.8sec@125km)/Jazz VTi (16.6sec@134km)/Mazda 2 Neo (17.2sec@132km)

For a car that uses just 5L/100km on the highway its amazing.

kagedude

Check this link... this is what I think the Sport Fit should be. Remind you of the Civic SI of old?

http://www.corrmann.net/images/corrmann_fit2_e_800x600.jpg

edouard

I was delivered a brand new Jazz with 7 speed CVT transmission just 2 weeks ago the car is very nice and amazingly roomy, you just don't feel trapped in that car! The CVT transmission feels really good and is very smooth, the car has a lots of pick up and the 1.4 engine with the 83bhp by no way feels week. You can hardly hear the engine working! The radio CD with 4 speakers is absolutely stunning. The car is full loaded (graphite model) and comes with 185/55R15 tires and alloy wheels. The downside point is that the car is definitely stiff and bumpy and just doesn't have the great suspension and riding of French cars either small or big. The completion is big on this side of the Atlantic and you hardly see any Jazz in Paris ..if any!

vcarreras

at a Honda dealership while passing through Nuevo Laredo, Mexico last weekend. One was silver with sport wheels and the other looked like a metalic green base model. The silver one looked nice. Unfortunately I couldn't stop to look since I had family and we wanted to get back home. Did not see any dealerships in Monterrey while I was there.

FYI..gas prices in Mexico for regular unleaded was about $2.15 a gallon! High test 93 octane was about $2.52. In Laredo, Texas gas ran from $2.45-2.69. Here in Houston it's averaging around $2.75. Gas in Mexico in refined in the U.S. and sent there. Yet our prices are higher!

micweb

How do you like the CVT? Do you run it in the "simulated 7 speed mode" or in true "motor boat" CVT mode. (Called "motorboat" because it goes up to a high rpm and doesn't change as you accelerate.)

edouard

I use the CVT as a regular automatic transmission and I just love it. Using the box in a manual way is fun and the car seems to have even more pick up when it goes up to high rpm, maybe it could be useful driving on mountain roads. Anyways all the various test drive I read mentioned that the auto way was the best and the most efficient way to use it. At this point it's too early to have a proper idea of the gas mileage but the consumption do seem really low.

micweb

If you get up to any of those twisty French mountain roads, be sure to give us a full report!

I've actually heard that CVT MINI's do well in auto-X over here because they stay in their ideal power band without having to pause to throw any shifts.

raychuang00

The downside point is that the car is definitely stiff and bumpy and just doesn't have the great suspension and riding of French cars either small or big.

Well, that's about the only major downside of the Fit/Jazz I've read that everyone agrees on--it's probably due to that torsion-beam rear suspension. Hopefully, when the Fit arrives in the USA Honda reworks the suspension pieces so the car offers better ride quality, really important in the USA given the considerable variance in paved road quality here in the USA.

backy

Don't blame it on the beam suspension. Other cars of this class such as the '06 Rio and Accent have the same kind of rear suspension yet manage to have smooth rides. It's more due to Honda's suspension tuning philosophy--optimize handling even at the expense of a smooth ride. This was evident on the previous-gen Civic and the current Accord also, although the new Civic is better in this regard.

raychuang00

It's more due to Honda's suspension tuning philosophy--optimize handling even at the expense of a smooth ride.

Actually, I thought with the 7th-generation Civic it was the other way around--Honda originally overly-optimized the suspension in favor of ride quality over handling, and Civic buyers complained loudly enough that Honda reworked the suspension starting with the second year of production of the 7th-generation model.

backy

I drove a '02 Civic and it was still a bumpier ride than in other compacts, e.g. Focus, Elantra, Spectra, and Mazda3.

micweb

You said, in part:

Other cars of this class such as the '06 Rio and Accent have the same kind of rear suspension yet manage to have smooth rides.

backy, have you tracked down '06 Rios and Accents to test drive? ;-)

They seem scarcer than hen's teeth, and reviews similarly scarce.

I did own two millenium Golf's with twist beam rear axles, and they were comfy, a Scion xA also with a twist beam was not, on recent Cobalt test drive, the Cobalt (also twist beam) was comfy.

It could be Honda has a stiffer suspension to combat susceptibility to crosswinds. I had an Echo that was terrible in crosswinds until I put on stiffer shocks, which helped a little, but the Scion xA was rock solid - in more ways than one (not peturbed by cross winds, and rattled the fillings in my teeth). Both the Fit and the Echo/xA have similar dimensions in a tall box (narrow and short wheelbase).

bostonjazz

Well, it looks like we're in another one of those periods with no Honda Fit news - whether it's new specs or articles. I will say, the Edumunds posting of some of the cars specs a week or two ago was some nice information - now we all sit and wait for more detail.

Any ideas on what might come next? Perhaps there'll be more to read when the Yaris arrives this fall/winter. Any guesses on when Honda will begin to reveal US market specs? Will it be that auto show (December)?

We're hoping our Oldsmobile makes it through another New England winter, so we can junk it for a Fit in Q1 06.

In the meantime, here is some interesting commentary/opinion, talking about the Jazz (Fit) following Nissan's Versa announcement, that popped up in my scanning on what looks like some environmentalist blog:

http://www.triplepundit.com/pages/hybrids-vs-the-honda-jazz-001503.php

hungarian83

It is good to see enthusiasm for the car (from the article in the link), but they had some information that will not be applicable to the US.

"real-world 60 mpg on the freeway"
Please note that this 60 mpg refers to the 1,2 liter (78 hp) European Jazz using imperial gallons!
The US will not be getting the 1,2L engine. Definitely a 1,5L, and maybe the 1,3L/1,4L, but not the 1,2. Also, the imperial gallon is larger than the american gallon.
These are the fuel specs for the 1245cc (1,2) Jazz
6,8 l/100km in the city (42 mpg - imperial), (35 mpg - american)
4,7 l/100km outside the city (60 mpg - imperial), (50 mpg - american)

Also remember that the US mileage standards are set differently from the European ones, so even when translated into "miles per US gallon", it still isn't the same if you try and compare to a car rated with the US mileage standards.

...And the price of UK£8 800 (US$15 000) for the 1,2 is not exactly miniscule.
Just as an example, the base 1,2 in Hungary is 2,4 million Forint (US$11 500). Even when you add the engine displacement-based registration fee of approximately US$1 000, that is still $12 500, which is already getting expensive for this car, but $15 000 is high.
Of course, it is a Honda (which in Europe means "expensive"), but since automatic transmissions are a rarity in most parts of Europe, this price is only counting for manual transmission. A Jazz with an automatic in Hungary is about US$18 600 after registration.

backy

backy, have you tracked down '06 Rios and Accents to test drive?

Yes, I have driven the '06 Rio LX (posted my review in the Test Drive discussion here at Edmunds.com in fact) and was impressed by its compliant ride, even with way-overinflated tires. The '06 Accent has the same platform, and according to a very detailed review in CanadianDriver, it too has a smooth ride. The Accents don't arrive at U.S. dealers for a few more weeks yet.

plekto

That's why we need both engines. 35/50mpg is a market destroyer if I ever saw one. Chevy is touting that their Avo gets 36mpg or some nonsense, so Honda's adds should show a dissapointed shopped looking at an Aveo and their friend musing to thenselves, a bit surprized, that that's what the Fit gets for city mileage - and that it's bigger inside th an the Aveo.

As for prices, that includes a 20% or so import tax. It's really 11-12K for the Fit, tarrifs and such not factored into the equation.

gonzo99

You are making some good points about relative prices, but let's be realistic... The European prices that you are mentioning include HUGE tariffs to protect local markets AND European VAT (Value Added Taxes). The USA reality is that imported cars have a miniscule tax... (3%???), and MUCH lower registration fees in ALL states.

" A Jazz with an automatic in Hungary is about US$18 600 after registration"... I'm sorry, you are no where near an American car-market reality.

I want a car that embodies spirit, "thrifty-ness", ecology, and pleasure of driving. Honda: you are on the clock.

Thank You to All who contribute to this Forum!!

goltgo

Well, here's something to talk about. I don't recall if this has been discussed previously, but does the Fit come in an AWD version somewhere in the world? I assume with a vehicle like this where mileage and low cost are important that we wouldn't see it here in the States even if it did exist elsewhere, but I'd certainly be willing to give up some mpg for the addition of AWD. When a car like this gets such good gas mileage to begin with, an AWD mileage hit would be much easier to take.

edouard

The European prices that you are mentioning include HUGE tariffs to protect local markets AND European VAT (Value Added Taxes). The USA reality is that imported cars have a miniscule tax... (3%???), and MUCH lower registration fees in ALL states.

I would say that in Europe, Japanese and Korean cars are cheaper and more competitive price wise than European cars and they don't get any huge tarif to protect the local market; that said we pay in France for any car purchase 19,6% of VAT (Value Added Taxes).

The retail price in France of the Jazz Graphite CVT (full loaded) with metallic painting (420$) is 17150€ (20550$), the price includes absolutely everything (19,60 VAT...etc..and even some gas)

I got a discount and the check I wrote to the dealer for the CVT Jazz graphite with metallic painting was 15200€ (18200$)
Unfortunately in France the sunroof is not available on the Jazz.

The retail price of the entry level Jazz is 12900€ (15450$), the entry level Jazz in France comes with 1.2L 78bhp engine, manual air conditionning, power window and radio (you cannot get the auto CVT transmission with this engine)

The little Renault Clio, not so little anymore...is priced the same, and the rear windows aren't powered and is less loaded, but with the Renault Clio you have the choice of at least 2 diesel engines and 4 or 5 gas engines and the ride and comfort is just in a different league than the Jazz.

mebman

For the dog lovers among you Honda has an interesting website on the Fit.
http://www.honda.co.jp/dog/honda-car/fit/index.html
It is packed full of information about the Honda Fit, as it relates to carrying your 4 legged best friend!

hungarian83

"HUGE tariffs to protect local markets AND European VAT"

...yes I know.

you are no where near an American car-market reality
I was just trying to make a point about the article saying that the Jazz (in Europe) has a "miniscule price", which is not necessarily true.
In most of Europe, automatic transmissions are considered more of a luxury item, and are priced accordingly, which accounts for the relatively high price of such a car there. I was not implying that this would occur in the US!
I know very well that the Fit in the US will be a thrifty, subcompact designed for commuters, students, entry-level car buyers, and those looking for fuel economy.

...and I am living in Southern California right now, so I am right in the middle of American car-market reality. As I said earlier, I was making a point about the article link in a former post.

beernut

and I am living in Southern California right now, so I am right in the middle of American car-market reality

Speaking of options, does it come with a VOMIT BAG?

hungarian83

Speaking of options, does it come with a VOMIT BAG?/i>

I honestly have no idea what you are getting at, or trying to say...
could you elaborate?

beernut

No.

hungarian83

Will someone please inform me of what I said wrong that would necessitate these responses.

beernut

Calm down h83, its just a little "California's Not the Center of the Universe" humor.

hungarian83

California's Not the Center of the Universe

Believe me, I am one of the people that realizes that.
I just live here...for the time being.

However, anyone can admit that California is an important state for the US automobile market. It has the largest population (in the US) that purchases a large amount of cars. California also has one of the highest proportions of cars from foreign manufacturers in the country. I don't know for sure if statistically it is the highest, but it is way up there. This makes it an important market for companies like Honda.
Also, several companies (including Honda) have used California as a test market for their vehicles with the additude of "if it sells there, we will introduce it to the rest of the country". Honda did this with 4 Western US states (California ended up selling the most) in 1970 with the N600, and Toyota did this with the Scion line, which was just a few years ago.

Anyway...not just to defuse another "state-rivalry" argument on this forum, but I really do know that "California's Not the Center of the Universe"

jonniedee

My local Honda dealer says that the US bound Fit will not be the 5 door - but the"Aria" Fit sedan per his sources - anyone else hear this? :confuse:

backy

You have just ruined my day. :mad:

stickguy

if they only bring over a tiny 4 door style, and not the 5 door wagonette, it will bomb. Just my prediction, but I bet I am not the only one that would immediately eliminate it from any consideration.

davidl340

If they bring over the 4 door and not the 5 door, I will not be happy, and will most likely not buy.

There is a blurb about the fit here under the heading "China Quality Lags, Says Fukui":
http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Car_Shows/Tokyo_Auto_Show/2005_Tokyo_Motor_Show_- Part_VII.S291.A9491.html

txptc

It would definately be a huge disappointment if Honda brought only the 4 door style Fit to the US. I don't understand why they would do that. Their US vehicle lineup is really missing a small hatchback. Who wants another small ugly 4 door sedan similar to the Toyota Echo?

raychuang00

I think given the success of the Scion xA and xB, Honda will likely offer the Fit five-door hatchback first. You're forgetting that Honda gets the Fit Aria sedan for the Japanese market from its Thailand assembly line, and that assembly line has been totally swamped trying to keep up with demand for the four-door sedan Fit derivative from all of Southeast Asia.

Besides, from that leaked picture someone took at a convention for USA Honda dealers from about a month ago, they showed a five-door hatchback there, not the Fit Aria sedan.

plekto

Just take a breath. Dealers are by and large morons with no real information. At least not compared to those of us online. It's the Japanese 1.5L Fit. It only deviates from the Japanese version in the DOT approved lights, and a few extremely minor(and hidden) things, like emissions controls and so on.

The only unknown is whether they will offer the 1.2/1.3L engine as a ultra-commuter/delivery car. Why would they possibly screw it up? The 5 door Fit is the #1 selling Honda in all of Japan. It sells more than the Civic, even. Okay, it IS the new "Civic" after the redesign of the Civic into basically an Accord. The 2006 model is huge.

edouard

My local Honda dealer says that the US bound Fit will not be the 5 door
I saw a 5 doors hatchback Fit/Jazz in White Rock/Vancouver last summer in Canada, same model as the one sold in Europe.

raychuang00

The only unknown is whether they will offer the 1.2/1.3L engine as a ultra-commuter/delivery car.

Sadly, I don't think Honda will offer the Fit in the USA with the L13A i-DSI engine, mostly because the heavier weight of the US-market car (due to extra safety equipment installed and the larger front and rear bumpers) might cancel out any potential fuel savings from the L13A engine (due to the fact the engine has to work harder for decent acceleration). The L15A i-DSI engine (the same engine found on the Fit Aria sedan) might make it, though, because the engine won't have to be worked so hard for decent acceleration.

The big unknown is whether we'll see a derivative of the new SOHC i-VTEC engine used on the 2006 Civic Hybrid on the US-market Fit, though.

edouard

the heavier weight of the US-market car (due to extra safety equipment installed and the larger front and rear bumpers)

I can't see any difference in the bumpers size between the cars sold in Europe and the ones sold in US; IMO Honda, Toyota, VW, Audi, Mercedes, BMW, Volvo have exactly the same bumpers in US and in Europe.
The only difference I can see is that you rarely see those cars with gas engine in France as people mostly order them with diesel engine.

What do you mean by the extra safety equipment?

hungarian83

"What do you mean by the extra safety equipment?"

Honda US has made a pledge that all of their vehicles (excluding specialty vehicles: Insight, S2000) will have ABS, front-side airbags, and side curtain airbags by the end of 2006. While the Jazz has many excellent safety features, it still does not have the side curtain airbags.
However, you are right regarding the bumpers IMO. The European Accord is sold as the Acura TSX in the US, and I just compared pictures of the two and the bumpers appear identical. In fact, the only exterior differences between the US and European versions of many models I have seen are the side-marker lights, and color of the rear turn signals (for certain countries). Even the CR-V has the same bumper even though the license plate on the European version is located in a different place.

This may be different for the Jazz/Fit being that it is a smaller car, but the Euro/NCAP is just as stringent (if not more so in certain areas) than the US test, so I don't really understand why the safety options should be any different.