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2007 Hyundai Accent v 2007 Toyota Yaris Lift

vermonter16vermonter16 Posts: 29
edited May 2014 in Hyundai
Has anyone been comparing these vehicles at all? I have been totally in love with the Yaris....looks especially and gas mileage... But I am drawn to the package of the new Accent which hopefully will be arriving soon. Anybody else considering these vehicles?
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Comments

  • ross14ross14 Posts: 36
    Read messages at "Low End Sedans, Under $16000"( most recent posts). The Accent Hatchbacks, unlike the Yaris, have not made it to dealers. The big question: How low can Hyundai go with the Accent GS, esp. with a rebate.
  • jsamajsama Posts: 2
    I have been waiting for this Accent GS 2007, for such a long time, that I am sick and tired, Eventhough I do not fit well in the Yaris hatchback,Iam 6'4", I am goint to buy this saturday. I fit better in the Fit ( I tried it )but the price is too much for such a small car. These Korean people are over estimating their new "Quality". Can't be like the Japanese. not now anyway. They could keep their car for what I care. Bye Hyundai, you lost a customer!!!. Keep it!!!! :P
  • I've looked around but can't find any at any dealers around the nation with internet searching. I've read the other forum but I haven't seen anybody saying that they've arrived yet. But I have noticed that all the Hyundai dealerships have only between 3,4 or 0 Accents...so I'm guess they are getting ready.

    The one thing that is turning me off from the Yaris is the lack of standard ABS though I would pay extra if I could find one on the lot that had it. I can't wait 5 months for one to come in. I also really would like cruise control..not offerd on the liftback. I love the look of the car but I'm disappointed with the lack of options.
  • reddroverrreddroverr Posts: 509
    Here is an article on the 2006 Accent. What struck me when I sat in an Accent was that the interior closed in around you. The door seemed to intrude on the drivers space. I don't know if the 2007 you are discussing alters this. The article had a nice picture illustrating this in print, but apparently not available in the online version.

    http://www.oregonlive.com/search/index.ssf?/base/automotive/1146252322113740.xml- ?oregonian?dtar&coll=7
  • Interesting. I have never sat in an Accent and probably won't look at them at all until the new hatchbacks arrive. This is supposed to be a commuter car for me. I love the looks of the yaris...but I don't like the fact that none of them are coming in with ABS. I need an economical car for commuting... I think I'm going to have to take a look at the Scion XA as well. I don't really want to spend a heck of a lot over $14,000 for this.
  • tsgeiseltsgeisel Posts: 352
    For those who've been waiting, I stopped by my local Hyundai dealership last night (6/29), and they had an Accent hatchback in the lobby. The salesman told me that all Hyundai dealers received *1* 3-door Accent, probably just as a teaser, rather than to seriously to sell.

    I didn't notice options and such, but *with* dealer markup added, the price was $14k. So a lower price should be easy to negotiate.

    It looked good, too, although not in any ground-breaking way.
  • Was the one you saw an SE or a GS? My local dealership has been getting GS 3 doors fairly regularly (2-5 every week and they sell within days of being there from what I can tell) for about 2-3 weeks now and has been slling them at between 11-13K depending on options but they haven't gotten an SE yet.
  • tsgeiseltsgeisel Posts: 352
    Didn't notice. If I find myself in the area, I may take a look.

    I've already got the Elantra I'm looking for, so I wasn't overly concerned... :-)
  • lucynethellucynethel Posts: 81
    Check the "TRUE" cost of ownwership on each. Besides resale, check the costs of the 60K service for instance. An eyeopener....Mike
  • Where can I find this information? Thanks.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Your question is where can you find information on the SE? Correct?

    Online / Your local dealership

    The SE is differentiated from the regular Accent sedan (obviously), as well as the base 3 door in a few areas. Aside from sport tunning, and upgraded suspensions (to near Tiburon level), the most noticeable area you would find perhaps maybe the larger wheels (largest in the class) - 16" to be exact.
  • boziebozie Posts: 30
    Working on my grandsons 2000 Hyundia Accent-The altinator fuse continues to blow-Removed altinator ,had it checked out -checked fine but will not show a charge going back to the Battery post. The plugin for the altinator fuse completely burened out to the postive side of the battery. Have the two wires connected to a fuse fuse tail clip sufficing for the damage box in the main fuse assembly. Worked fine when driven yesterday for serval miles. Trid to start this morn. Fuse blown over night.Was going to take it too my Mechanic but want kick in starter. Tried jumping but to no avail. Need help ASAP. Harold Gammons(Bozie) PS-The Alternator does not show a charge coming back to the battery when it is running.That's Why trip to my mechanic is necessary.
  • jlemoinejlemoine Posts: 25
    Do you have a shorted cell in the battery??? If the alternator is fine then the short must lie somewhereelse in the wiring or battery
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,941
    My opinion on the pros and cons of these two cars:

    Yaris H/B Pros:

    * Low starting price - includes A/C
    * Excellent fuel economy
    * Smooth ride for a small car
    * Excellent predicted reliability based on Toyota's history and specifically the history of its predecessor, the ECHO
    * Better predicted resale value than the Accent (see below)

    Yaris H/B Cons:

    * Side airbags/curtains and ABS are optional and are in limited supply
    * Features that are common standard features in this class such as rear window defroster, 60/40 rear seat, height-adjustable driver's seat, and tachometer are either optional or not available
    * Less passenger room than most competitors
    * Less cargo room (especially with back seat up) than most competitors
    * No side moldings to ward off dings (aftermarket?)
    * No cruise control or sunroof available as factory options (aftermarket?)
    * Center-mounted speedo is too small to be read easily at a glance
    * Crash test scores not very good, based on NHTSA scores for Yaris 4-door w/o side bags (4/4/3/3)

    Accent H/B Pros:

    * Low starting price (GS) - includes six airbags, 8-way driver's seat, 60/40 rear seat, 8-way driver's seat with armrest, tach, sport steering, variable intermittent wipers, and rear spoiler.
    * Standard side airbags/curtains and (in SE) standard ABS with EBD.
    * Good standard feature content in GS (except A/C) and SE (GS features per above plus A/C, power windows/locks/heated mirrors, remote locking with alarm, 6-speaker CD stereo, 4-wheel disc brakes with ABS, sport suspension, 16" alloys with V-rated tires, leather wheel/shift knob, fog lamps, and dual lighted vanity mirrors)
    * Largest interior in its class (EPA rated as a compact)
    * Most powerful engine in its class
    * Clear gauges, mounted in front of driver
    * Very quiet for its class
    * Smooth ride for a small car
    * Factory sunroof is available
    * Very good crash test scores for this class except rear side, based on NHTSA scores for Accent 4-door with standard side airbags/curtains (5/5/4/3)

    Accent H/B Cons:

    * Fuel economy does not match competitors like Yaris and Fit
    * New design, thus no reliability history (previous Accent design was rated a little above average overall by CR from 2000-2004)
    * Predicted resale value as percentage of MSRP is less than the Yaris'; per ALG, the Accent's is 23% and the Yaris' is 32% (however, note that a comparable Accent costs less than a Yaris, so the dollar depreciation could be very close depending on purchase price)
    * Tall throws on stick shift (short-throw kit is available as dealer-installed option)
    * No side moldings to ward off dings (aftermarket?)
    * No cruise control available as a factory option (aftermarket?)

    What did I miss?
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    Summed it up pretty well I think (honestly).

    The Yaris is close in price, better predicted reliability, has a nearly 10% better residual (resale) value, and nearly 10% better gas mileage combined. It is hard, but far from impossible, to find one with side airbags. While on the topic of frills, it also has more cupholders and gloveboxes/cubbies.

    The Accent is slightly less expensive comparably, has a few more frills (but A/C isn't standard), but has Side/Curtain Airbags standard. It also has 3.5% more horsepower. It is more spacious. In the top of the line model it also offers a sport suspension. After driving both, I'd say it is indeed a bit quieter at speed than the Yaris as well.

    Comparing resale of the ECHO to the Accent you can also clearly see the disparity in favor if the ECHO, despite the Accent being sold for "less".

    A quick look at www.autotrader.com can illustrate the flaw in believing a "good" deal will offset residual differences.

    It didn't, at least in the case of the Accent vs. the ECHO.

    T
  • lhansonlhanson Posts: 268
    Fantastic post, better that many I have seen in car publications. Everything anyone would need to make to make the decision on which of these two cars would best suit their respective needs.
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    Agreed :)

    With a little clarification, but generally spot on!

    T
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,941
    I'm not sure how you are predicting reliability for the Accent hatch, since it's a brand-new design. Not even Consumer Reports has taken a shot at predicting reliability for it yet. Maybe they realize that because it's a new design, and the reliability of Hyundais has improved with each new generation, they should wait until they have some data to make a prediction.

    How many Yaris hatchbacks have you seen at your dealership with a stick, ABS, and side bags/curtains?

    I think you are right about the Yaris having more gloveboxes--doesn't it have one in front of the driver too? As for cupholders, the GS has two and the SE has four. How many does the Yaris hatch have? (The Accent sedan has eight, which is kind of overkill since it can only seat five!)

    A/C is standard on the Accent SE, and optional on the GS. I have read posts in Town Hall from people looking for really basic cars w/o air, so maybe the fact that the GS can be had w/o air is appealing to some. I just wonder how many GS models will actually be shipped w/o air.

    The resale equation is interesting. Let me give an example to show what I mean per my earlier post. Let's say someone could buy either an Accent SE or Yaris. MSRP with destination on the SE is $14,495, invoice is $13,591, Edmunds' TMV in my area is $14,040. A comparably equipped Yaris (as close as they can be anyway) lists for $14,950 including the mandatory (in my area) Cold Weather Package. That is also the Edmunds TMV price.

    Now let's make a reasonable assumption that there will be a rebate on the 2007 Accents in the near future. There has been a $1000 rebate on the 2006 Accent for some time, and as you have pointed out every 2006 Hyundai model has some sort of rebate. So I don't think it's a big leap to think there will be one on the 2007 Accents once the supply of 2006s is gone.

    So the purchase prices for sake of this example are $13,040 (TMV less rebate) for the Accent and $14,950 for the Yaris (TMV, assuming no rebate). After five years according to ALG's estimates, the Accent will be worth 23% of its MSRP and the Yaris will be worth 32%. That's $3334 for the Accent and $4784 for the Yaris. But the Accent actually cost $13,040. So over five years, the Accent buyer lost $9696 in depreciation, and the Yaris buyer lost $10,166. Please check my math on this example, but it looks like the Yaris buyer lost more money in five years than the Accent buyer did.

    So that's an example, and I think a realistic one, as to how a "good deal" can offset residual differences.
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    Alrighty, here we go again lol...

    PREDICTED reliability is based upon manufacturer's history with cars in this segment. If you compare the most recent models (the Accent and the ECHO), the ECHO has a decisive reliability advantage, so saying "predicted" reliability isn't that much of a stretch at all now is it? And FYI, the "old" generation cars are how companies like ALG come up with things like residuals on "new" models too, so using the "old" cars as guides isn't so crazy.

    And while we're on the subject of predicting things, lets look at an old generation Accent compared to an ECHO (the old generation Yaris) in terms of resale value. Go out to www.autotrader.com . You don't even need to do anything but subtraction to see how much more a 5 year old ECHO is worth compared to a 5 year old Accent...

    Even if we go with your example, the less than $500 difference will be made up almost in gas alone (even at 10k per, over five years... and even going so far as to figure it stays at an average over the next 5 years of $3.00 per gallon).

    So is an Accent really less expensive to own??? Doesn't look like it.

    The Yaris hatch has SEVEN drink holders btw... Overkill or not, I use one for a change cup, and one for my Cell phone cradle (the cup holder style) even when I have no drinks at all to carry. It's quite convenient. So much so, I'm thinking of making that feature a "blocker" ;) .

    T

    PS: In terms of power to weight ratio, the "best" in class horsepower Accent offers an advantage of .0002 hp per lb (106/2293 vs. 110/2366). Feel the burn! :P
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,941
    I accept that you define predicted reliability as you stated. I think that it's more reasonable though to measure predicted reliability based on the actual car. So if a car is totally redesigned, as the Accent and Yaris hatches were for 2007, I think that has to be taken into account. Which is what CR does when it reports on predicted reliability for cars. Note that in their 2006 Annual Auto issue, they state for their predicted reliability for the Accent and Yaris simply "New".

    The problem with using the reliability of old designs as a predictor of reliability of new designs is that is doesn't take into account the quality improvements--or slides in quality for that matter--in the new designs. Hyundai is trending up. Toyota has been strong for many years in reliability, but recently their executives and the press have voiced concerns over an increasing number of quality problems in Toyota's new models. Will the Accent continue Hyundai's upward trend in reliability? Will the Yaris continue Toyota's tradition for reliability? I think it's too early to say for sure. If I had to go only on the reliability of the old models, the Accent's record per CR and other sources is acceptable to me. I know that may not be the case with everyone.

    You are correct that the $500 difference in my example would be made up in gas savings, assuming 10k miles a year or more over five years and $3.00 a gallon gas. If someone drives less than that, as I do, the amount is not made up--although gas prices could go above $3.00. But I have to consider that over those five years, I would be driving a car in the Accent SE that has a lot more of what I look for in a car. It would be worth it to me to pay more than for the Yaris. I realize many will disagree with me on that. For example, if having seven cup holders is a "blocker" requirement for you, then that drops the Accent hatch out of any consideration whatsoever. ;)
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    Actually, believe it or not, I pretty much agree 100%.

    T
  • I couldn't resist commenting... I test drove an automatic yaris liftback in August in NH and fell in love immediately. I'm waiting for a stick shift with power package and praying I get it. I know it was years ago but a friend bought a Hyundai and it was a piece of crap.. I just couldn't consider one, I'll stick with Toyota's or Honda's.. both have been great buys in the past and sooooo reliable!
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    Exactly why "predicted" reliability is so important... everything from perception to residuals are based on what people remember about old ones, not how nice the new ones "might" be.

    Once bitten, twice shy :)

    The Yaris OTOH, is the follow-up to a car that CR gave almost ENTIRELY full red (the best) circles accross the board.

    And I swear, if someone brings up the Toyopet... lol... Anyone find me a COLOR photo of one yet? :P Or know any of the 3 people who owned one and are still alive??? j/k

    T
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,941
    The first Toyota I owned, a Corolla, had three powertrain problems (two of which I had to pay for) and one electrical system problem (also which I had to pay for) in its first 3 years. Plus the trunk leaked during hard rains, or going through an automatic car wash. Guess I would never want to buy another Toyota! Oh wait... I did buy two others. They were very reliable. Also much more refined than my first Corolla. They were very good cars (another Corolla, and a Celica). I'm glad I gave Toyota a second chance.
  • The big thing missed for ME is the "true cost od ownership". Check the price of a 60K service on both...
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,941
    Well, don't keep us in suspense--what are the 60k service costs for both cars?
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    "Guess I would never want to buy another Toyota!"

    And if your problems were in fact in line with the majority of owners, I wouldn't blame you one bit if you didn't.

    But we aren't talking about isolated cases here... we are talking about broad spectrums of ownership. Of which, overwhelmingly, have indicated Toyota to be a superior brand with regards to reliability.

    If things are indeed changing, there isn't enough data to draw any real conclusions to that effect... YET. There may be, in a while, but for now I doubt anyone but a Hyundai owner would care to take up the argument that a Hyundai is as reliable as a Toyota.

    Historically it isn't true, perception-wise it isn't true, and until data conclusively proves so IN THE FUTURE, there isn't much to say for the present either.

    By all accounts, the Yaris is PREDICTED to be a more reliable car. I think history more than supports that opinion...

    T
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,941
    But we aren't talking about isolated cases here...

    Odd... you didn't say that a few posts back when someone mentioned a friend had trouble with a Hyundai years ago.

    As for a Hyundai is as reliable as a Toyota: that has been my experience in owning three Toyotas and two Hyundais. Actually, considering my first Toyota, my Hyundais have been more reliable than Toyota overall. Don't you think people consider their personal experiences with a brand in deciding whether to buy that brand again? I think it's a pretty major consideration.

    If things are indeed changing, there isn't enough data to draw any real conclusions to that effect... YET.

    There is plenty of data to draw conclusions about the reliability of Hyundais improving over the past few years. All you need to do is check out the past few years' of CR's reliability surveys, or JD Power's annual reports on reliability to see the upward trend. Go take a look at the 2006 CR Annual Auto Issue. Hyundais used to be a joke because of their reliability. Take a look at how many brands have overall predicted reliability records better than Hyundai in that CR issue. Not too many.

    Yes, Toyota is one of them. (Although the Yaris is too new to have a reliability record, at least according to the accounts of CR.) That point is not in dispute, although you keep bringing it up as if it were. If someone wants superior--not just acceptable, but superior--predicted reliability in a car above everything else, the Yaris (or maybe the Fit) is the logical choice. If other considerations are as important or more important, then it's not a slam-dunk for the Yaris.
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    Hey now, let's not play the misquote game again... I never said HYUNDAI wasn't improving, now did I??? And I wasn't the one who said my friend had problems... Although I know a few that have (with Hyundais).

    What I did say was that there was NO evidence that they have become as reliable as Toyota, so claiming that they've come a long way is still afar cry from being EVEN. They may be getting CLOSER, but they aren't there yet, and that is black and white.

    Look, I get that you are very proud of your Hyundai, and truly, that's cool. Nothing wrong with going off of personal experiences either. It's obvious that by your own habits (driving less than 10k a year), the Hyundai may be a good choice for you. Most people will experience more problems than you simply because MOST people drive thousands more miles per year than you do. That would be true no matter what you drove.

    The Yaris is a better choice with regards to gas-mileage, residual, and predicted reliability.

    T
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,941
    How could I have mis-quoted you when I quoted you verbatim--copied/pasted your exact text? You and everyone else can read as well as I can. But yes, there are games being played here re quotes.

    Maybe you are very proud of your Yaris. I wouldn't say I am or have been very proud of any car I've owned. I'm proud of my children; that's another thing entirely. I have had a positive ownership experience with the two Hyundais I've owned. I enjoy driving my Hyundai today even though it's a dated design--the oldest design of any of Hyundai's current offerings. In many respects it's not near the car the 2007 Accent is.

    Most people will experience more problems than you simply because MOST people drive thousands more miles per year than you do. That would be true no matter what you drove.

    Like the Corolla I owned that had four major problems in less than 3 years?

    About the Scoupe/Excel stuff... since that is off-topic, were you just practicing the lines you use on customers when they say, "Well, we're also looking at the Accent"? Did you look at that CR 2006 Annual Auto issue? Did you notice Hyundai isn't anywhere near worst? Did you notice today's date--October 3, 2006? Not October 3, 1994? The last model year for the Excel was 1994.
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    When you imply that the sentence you quoted was me saying Hyundai had never improved, yes, I think it was CLEARLY a mis-quote.

    Watch, here's a quote of yours:

    "You and everyone else can read as well as I can."

    Wow? Really? Seems like there was more to what you were saying there... but what do I know?

    But on to less trivial things... Yes, we DO poke fun at Hyundai's history. It's off topic a little, but in general, Hyundai/KIA were the laughing stock of the industry. That's a hard thing to shake.

    Indeed it is 2006. Let's have a look at the current CR for a moment and check Hyundai vs. Toyota?

    Yikes.

    ECHO (old-gen Yaris) vs. Accent?

    Yikes.

    If it's changing (Hyundai being as reliable, or even close to for that matter, Toyota), it hasn't happened yet.

    Also realize that AGE/MILEAGE plays a major role in reliability too... If I only drove a Model T 50 miles a year, I may consider it to be reliable. The word MOST (people) has a key importance also, because most people drive 12k to 15k per year (or more), and are exposed to MANY more age related problems than you are (driving less than 10k per).

    T
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,941
    I never said that you said Hyundai never improved. As you what you imply from what I said, I can't help you there.

    ECHO (old-gen Yaris) vs. Accent?

    Yikes.

    If it's changing (Hyundai being as reliable, or even close to for that matter, Toyota), it hasn't happened yet.


    I guess you didn't look at that CR report. It shows the latest reliability rating for the last-generation Accent to be a solid red dot--same as the latest rating for the ECHO. Or maybe you said "Yikes" because you did see that the Accent has drawn even to the ECHO.

    IMO driving 20k miles a year on the highway is easier on a car than driving 10k miles in stop-and-go city traffic, with lots of short trips. Which is what I do much of the time.
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    With regards to my "quote" you said:

    "There is plenty of data to draw conclusions about the reliability of Hyundais improving over the past few years"

    Pretty clear you wanted to make it seem like I had said Hyundai hadn't improved... but whatever...

    I did look at that CR. Do you understand how it works? Consumer Reports publishes all of the data they have available at the time they go to press. I would HOPE that a car with less than two years of data would be reporting all red...

    Do you know when MOST cars start having trouble? I'll give you a hint before you bring up the IQS... it isn't less than 3 years, and it certainly isn't less than 90 days lol...

    My "yikes" was in reference to the significant fall-off nearly EVERY Hyundai has (from red circles to black), once a little long term data is collected. And we aren't talking 1994 here, try looking back 3-5 years or so...

    "yikes". For both Hyundai and the Accent. But not to worry, they're getting better... almost as good as Toyota... do you promise? :P

    Excuse me if I, like the rest of the majority of car buyers, want to see it evidenced first, before we go out and spend so much as a penny on a company that less than 10 years ago, was the laughing stock of the industry.

    I have NEVER stated the Accent wasn't a nice car, just that the Yaris has much better predicted reliability going for it, in addition to residual (resale value), and gas-mileage. It may be all new, but it uses an awful lot of technology that has been proven darn near bulletproof by Consumer Reports and others.

    The same cannot be said for the Hyundai Accent.

    You are o.k. with that risk based upon your individual past experiences. That's fine. I hope it works out for you.

    Historically, even as recent as the last 5 years, you'd have far less to "risk" if you went with a Yaris.

    T
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,941
    Corporate reliability record - yes. I thought we were agreed on that way back? As for the Yaris' predicted reliability record, I'm not sure I am smarter than CR in making predictions there. One would think the new Yaris would be reliable, but then there have been some interesting glitches on the new Camry, and an upsurge in problems and recalls in general on Toyotas recently, for example:

    http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060805/news_1b5recalls.html

    Trend for Hyundai: up, per CR, JD Power, etc. Trend for Toyota: troubled, per the admission of their own executives.

    Resale value - as a percentage of MSRP, yes. Per my example earlier, I have doubts that it is an advantage in the real world in which Accents sell for considerably less up front than does the Yaris.

    Gas mileage - no one is disputing that the Yaris has the advantage there.

    It may be all new, but it uses an awful lot of technology that has been proven darn near bulletproof by Consumer Reports and others. The same cannot be said for the Hyundai Accent.

    Maybe you need to learn more about the Accent, because that statement is untrue. The new Accent uses a proven engine design. Like on the Yaris, the body is all-new. But it was created using proven computerized assembly techniques that Hyundai has perfected over the past several years--using their own robots. Both cars have a minimum of fancy features, so there is not much to break.

    Do you know when MOST cars start having trouble?

    Actually, with Toyotas it seems many of them are having trouble pretty early--e.g. the transmission problems on the 2007 Camry. Maybe it has to do with the fact (see article above) that 68% of their recalls are due to design problems. If there's a design problem, it should show up pretty early.

    If the Accent were not a reliable car, why would Consumer Reports include the Accent (the prior generation) in its list of recommended used cars, just as it did the ECHO?

    Based on available data, I think you are over-exaggerating the risk associated with buying an Accent vs. a Yaris.
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    "Based on available data, I think you are over-exaggerating the risk associated with buying an Accent vs. a Yaris."

    Please show me where I described it as anything but more risk? Which even you admit... I guess you over-exaggerate too then lol...

    Even your own estimate of resale cuts in the direction of the YARIS for most people. If you drive less than 10k per year, it's STILL within a few dollars (less than a hundred), on a comparably equipped car.

    But we've already decided that for you (cash buyer, drives far less than average, plans on keeping it forever) the Hyundai is probably a pretty good deal.

    What about the AVERAGE driver that may be perusing these forums though? You know, the one who finances, drives 15k a year, and trades every few years?

    The Yaris will cost him/her less, comparably equipped (even by your own scenario).

    I also never said the Accent was a bad car (even the old one), just inferior when compared to the ECHO over time. There are FAR worse choices. I have never disputed that.

    "with Toyotas it seems many of them are having trouble pretty early"

    Really? I guess by "many" you really mean "few", unless you are trying to say Hyundai has MORE than many, seeing as how it finishes behind Toyota in the problems per 100 category in your oft quoted JD Power.

    More than many? Yikes...

    T
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,941
    Please show me where I described it as anything but more risk?

    OK, how about this from a few minutes ago:

    Historically, even as recent as the last 5 years, you'd have far less to "risk" [emphasis mine] if you went with a Yaris.


    Not sure what buying with cash has to do with this. Since the Accent costs less up front than the Yaris, why should taking out a loan be a problem with the Accent, given the Accent's real-world advantage in dollar depreciation over 5 years? Also, "keeping it forever" is an exaggeration I think. After five years, you would likely lose more money on depreciation on a Yaris than an Accent. Unless five years is "forever" for you?

    According to the U.S. Government, the average miles driven per car in 2001 (most recent numbers I could find) was 12,041--up just a few hundred miles since 1994. So is 10,000 miles "far less than average"? I wouldn't say that.

    So wouldn't someone who buys a car with a loan, drives 12,000 miles a year, and owns the car for at least five years (the length of many loans these days) be pretty "average"? And please explain to me why a Yaris would cost this kind of person less? We've already established the Accent is likely to have an advantage in lower depreciation expenses. The Accent will be under full warranty for all five years and 60,000 miles that this "average" driver will own the car. The finance charges on the Accent will be lower, due to lower up front price. The lower gas costs for the Yaris may offset some, maybe all of these higher costs. But I don't see how you can infer from this that the costs of owning the Yaris will be lower.

    As for the "many" Toyotas having problems, look back at the article I posted earlier. And I think you need to check back with JD Power, because it was Toyota that finished behind Hyundai in their latest report (at least the one I quoted earlier).
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    Again, if you consider that "many" problems, Hyundai has more than the "many" problems Toyota does:

    http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/06/07/jdpower_iqs/

    If you want to make this a discussion about which manufacturer has more awards (even recent ones), let's go... ;) But I have a hunch you already know how it'll end up.

    And didn't you say not too long ago that you drove LESS than 10k per year? I think that's only fair to describe as far less than average, even if you believe the average to be 12k today, that's a full 17% or more (less) (depending on many miles less than 10k you drive).

    I also thought we settled long ago, that on comparably equipped cars, using TMV, that once you factor in AVERAGE gas use, the Yaris is in fact less expensive...

    Now you want to throw in finance charges? Ok, let's look at the difference in finance charges, on a difference of $1000, over 5 years, on an avearage APR (let's say 10%). Is it more or less than $300???

    And you say 5 years is the average length of the LOAN, but do you know how many are actually paid to term? I do. It's less than 50%. That means, the MAJORITY of car loans never have every payment made... hmmm... falls in line with the point people don't, on average, keep cars very long compared to you... now doesn't it?

    IF you calculate in purchase price, depreciation, finance charges, and gas-mileage (no matter how much of a window you look at) the Yaris either beats, or is within a hundred dollars or so, of the Accent.

    The Yaris is, for most people, a better buy $$$-wise than the Accent.

    T

    PS: With regards to my "risk" quote... I don't think that's even the slightest exaggeration, especially when you look at the reliability history of the ECHO compared to the Accent. The Accent may not be "unreliable", but it is indeed, far less reliable than the ECHO. Sorry
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    The JD Power study referred, Hyundai finished ahead of Toyota in the non-luxury nameplate. Backy's right because Yaris is not a Toyota, not Lexus.

    In your point, Comparing Hyundai to Lexus, well, that should be a complement for Hyundai :)
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    Right, and that is the IQS study.

    I am trying to find a good link to the "problems per 100" study, which is more applicable to the statement of Toyota having "many" problems.

    T
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    You're looking for the VDS study. Actually both IQS and VDS are measured in terms of "problems per 100". By the way, VDS studies 3-year-old vehicles, not exactly relevant for this discussion. Let's come back in 2010 to discuss these 07 models :)
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    Cool, did not know that :)

    Just out of curiosity, do you have a link to the current VDS? I can't seem to find one :(

    That way, we can look at how "many" more problems Toyota has than Hyundai, when we look at a slightly wider ownership window than 90 days?

    T
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    The VDS is a reliability study of 2003MY vehicles. Toyota 179; Hyundai 253

    The reason why it's not relevant discussion is because both models are new (well, Yaris, relative), so reliability is still a moot point. Of course, everyone, including Toyota, would tell you the new Hyundai lineup are a lot better than previous models, even back track 3 years (2003) :)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,941
    The other reason that I expect tjw1308 will agree a 3-year period isn't relevant is because he said so earlier:

    Do you know when MOST cars start having trouble? I'll give you a hint before you bring up the IQS... it isn't less than 3 years, and it certainly isn't less than 90 days lol...

    So since most cars don't start having trouble within 3 years, a 3-year reliability study will be of limited value.
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    See, I think it is pertinent seeing as they are BOTH "new" models. All we have to go off of is history, not just a 90 day "honeymoon" (people like new and shiny things haha).

    As discussed before, despite being "new" the Yaris shares a lot mechanically in common with the ECHO. So does the Accent (with the previous-gen). Look at the history of both, and it's easy to PREDICT that the Yaris will be more reliable.

    The other issue is, Backy made the statement that Toyota is having "many" problems.

    3 years ago is too long now? I might even give you that they've come a long way from the days of the Scoupe/Excel (12 years ago), but THREE years is too long??? Come on now :)

    T
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    It's of more relevance than a 90 day study for sure!

    And since you want to ring the IQS like the Liberty Bell, funny how that "honeymoon" wears off in less than 3 years now isn't it?

    :P

    T
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,941
    If you want to make this a discussion about which manufacturer has more awards (even recent ones), let's go...

    Why would we want to do that? Besides being off-topic, it would highlight the fact that Toyota offers many more models than Hyundai as well as outsells them worldwide by, what was it, 20:1? ;)

    But if you want to bring up awards for the Yaris or Accent hatchbacks, I think that would be pertinent. For example, there was the recent award by cars.com re the Accent being the value champ over the Fit and Yaris. If I find any others I'll let you know.

    My miles driven over the years has varied but is overall around 10k a year +/-. If you consider that "far less" than 12k, we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

    I also thought we settled long ago, that on comparably equipped cars, using TMV, that once you factor in AVERAGE gas use, the Yaris is in fact less expensive...


    I don't recall settling that. I do recall agreeing that the gas savings could offset the Accent's depreciation (dollar) advantage, depending on gas prices and miles driven. But one thing I forgot about is finance charges--you pointed out that the average buyer finances their cars, and the Accent costs less up front comparably equipped, so there's that factor to consider also. (And recall the difference in purchase price was greater than $1000.) As well as when you look at a 5 year, 12k miles/year horizon, you have two more years of full warranty coverage on the Accent than on the Yaris, so repair expenses should be less on average (not everyone's Yaris will break in years 4-5, but some will).

    As for loans not being paid to term, how much of that is due to the car being sold vs. the loan being paid off early? On the car loans I've made over the years, I paid only one out to full term--the rest I paid off early (and not because I sold the car).

    IF you calculate in purchase price, depreciation, finance charges, and gas-mileage (no matter how much of a window you look at) the Yaris either beats, or is within a hundred dollars or so, of the Accent.


    Not sure how you figure that. The Accent holds the advantage in purchase price, depreciation (in dollars), finance charges. Can the gas savings offset that? Let's see with an example based on an "average" driver who drives the U.S. average 12k miles a year for five years, assuming $3 a gallon:

    Accent MT: 33.5 mpg, $5373 in gas costs.

    Yaris MT: 37 mpg, $4864 in gas costs.

    So the Yaris saves about $500 in gas over five years. Does that outweigh both the depreciation dollar savings and finance charge savings and repair cost savings over five years?

    As for "far more risk", you are entitled to your opinion, which I disagree with. At least you admit now that you actually said it. ;)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,941
    Hey, you forgot who posted the link to the story on the IQS to tout how Toyota beat Hyundai... or not. :)
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    Let's have a look:

    "So the purchase prices for sake of this example are $13,040 (TMV less rebate) for the Accent and $14,950 for the Yaris (TMV, assuming no rebate). After five years according to ALG's estimates, the Accent will be worth 23% of its MSRP and the Yaris will be worth 32%. That's $3334 for the Accent and $4784 for the Yaris. But the Accent actually cost $13,040. So over five years, the Accent buyer lost $9696 in depreciation, and the Yaris buyer lost $10,166. Please check my math on this example, but it looks like the Yaris buyer lost more money in five years than the Accent buyer did."

    After pointing out the gas-savings the Yaris provides, you say:

    "You are correct [my emphasis] that the $500 difference in my example would be made up in gas savings, assuming 10k miles a year or more over five years and $3.00 a gallon gas"

    Hmmm... sounds like you were convinced...

    And now you do drive an average of 10k per? Seems just a while ago it was "less"... oh well, guess it just depends on your position in the argument.

    Actually, very few car loans are paid off early (and not traded in on something else). Just another minority you find yourself in (but at least it's a good one :) ).

    As for the risk, it's not just MY opinion.

    If you ask any reasonable NON-Hyundai/Toyota owner which vehicle (Toyota or Hyundai) they believe to be the riskier to own, you know as well as I do how lopsided it would be.

    "Far" riskier I say? Well, even if we ONLY go back 3 years... it looks to be that way doesn't it???

    T
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    "Hey, you forgot who posted the link to the story on the IQS to tout how Toyota beat Hyundai... or not."

    I did :)

    So is it valid or not? Because if it is, it opens up a whole can of worms with regards to Hyundai's recent history now doesn't it? Especially with Toyota having so "many" problems ;)

    T
This discussion has been closed.