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Which is better? Diesel or Gas engines
I am looking at a Ford F-250 SD, extended cab,
4x4, with either the 7.3 Power Stroke Diesel or the
V-10. This will be a secondary vehicle used to go
on long trips and for work as well as around town.
Not many heavy loads will be pulled. I currently
live in the South where the winters are not too
cold, however, I plan to moved back up North where
the winter temps. stay below freezing for about 3
months and often dip well below zero at night.
Given the general purpose of this vehicle, which
engine is better? Which engine will give me the
least amount of trouble (i.e. cranks after a long
cold soak both with and without plugging up the
battery)? And how about MPG?
4x4, with either the 7.3 Power Stroke Diesel or the
V-10. This will be a secondary vehicle used to go
on long trips and for work as well as around town.
Not many heavy loads will be pulled. I currently
live in the South where the winters are not too
cold, however, I plan to moved back up North where
the winter temps. stay below freezing for about 3
months and often dip well below zero at night.
Given the general purpose of this vehicle, which
engine is better? Which engine will give me the
least amount of trouble (i.e. cranks after a long
cold soak both with and without plugging up the
battery)? And how about MPG?
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Comments
The only advantage a diesel has is at max towing at altitude. That's it. Every other towing scenario the gas will tow with the diesel if not better
The fuel savings of a diesel are are more then offset by the $4000 initial investment. The oil changes are $20-$30 more for the diesel because of double the oil capacity and more expensive filters. Fuel filters must be changed more often plus I believe diesels have water separators to change(?).
On a personal note the diesel sound is very annoying even though people will respond it's music to their ears.
The diesel is very sluggish compared to the higher revving V-10.
Again a personal opinion but who cares if a diesel lasts a zillion miles? If I put on a 100,000 in ten years it will be a lot. I will agree that if people drive 50,000 miles a year with max loads it begins to make sense to own a diesel.
The last comment would be to drive 'em. Some people love the characteristics of the diesel and would own them regardless of price. I think they're slow unloaded, noisy, smelly, cost too much initially and are higher to maintain.
Let the flood gates open......again.
Tmiguel, I'm glad you like your truck but with the Crew cab option and 4 wheel discs and better build quality the Ford's it.
I don't know where you're buying fuel. I just got diesel on Tuesday at $1.55. (Ultramar on Brookhurst near Garden Grove Bl.) Fuel, lately, is about the same as unleaded, and most stations in Huntington Beach area are selling in the $1.65 to $1.69 area.
modvptnl,
You missed a few important things. Up north you may want to plug the engine block heater in over night. (About 75 watts.) In traffic, the diesel will get much better mileage IF YOU DRIVE WITH A LIGHT FOOT. If you want to be aggressive and play in traffic, your mileage will differ! The one thing that every one seems to miss when comparing gasoline to diesel is torque. The joy of the torque of the diesel (Low RPM) makes the diesel a much easier vehicle to drive.
A this point I'm on my third diesel and probably will never buy a gasoline powered vehicle again. I think that if you spend a lot of time on the road in a diesel pick up, you'll really develop an a love affair with the diesel. Some where in the 10-15K mile range you'll be asking yourself what took you so long to buy the diesel.
Rich
What exactly is "easier to drive" I mean the V-10 has something like 90% of its 425 lbs of torque at like 2500 RPM's it's not exactly like you got to slip the clutch to get it rolling. And I've said many times before; even though the diesel has more torque on paper its slow revving nature negates any advantage off the line. Yes I know we don't drag race full size trucks, but where's the advantage of torque if the gas motor is still quicker? Easier to drive for me is smoother, quieter, no stinky diesel gas stations to contend with(I know, diesel smells like perfume to hard core diesel owners) all the things the V-10 offers for at least $4000 less.
First of all if the gas eng. are so good, why are all the big rigs DIESEL!
Second (I learned this from experiance) hook up a 16,000ib trailor to a diesel then hook it up to a 300 + hp. gas, the gas falls on its face. If you dont tow, and don't plan on putting 200,000 miles on a truck, buy the gas, but it you need to buy a real work truck, buy the diesel (not the GM diesel)The cummins or the navistar.
Please don't misunderstand. 15-20 years ago it was possible to make an economic case for a diesel in a pick up. Today I think that the economic pay back is a couple hundred thousand miles. My whole point was the sheer joy of those 200K miles! As far as the torque goes..... I don't doubt that you can dump the clutch and go with your v-10. I don't doubt the torque numbers that you're quoting. All I can say is to drive a diesel for that 10K-15K miles. There's just something about the torque that's always there.
I reread your post and noticed the 2500 RPM comment. In my truck at 2500 RPM I'm cruising at about 85 MPH. Maybe that's it! I'm always in the maximum torque band of the engine. Like I said, I love the diesel. I'm sure that others may not. It is one of those things that are black or white and absolutely no grey area between.
Rich
Rich I'm very happy you enjoy your diesel. That's why I always suggest a test drive, if a diesel drives you nuts in the first few miles it aint getting any better in 15000 miles and vice versa, if you love it instantly; go for it.
BTW with the exception of the 4.30 rear end the gearing on the Ford is the same. So your 85 would be the same RPM on both gas and diesel with the same trans and rear end. I believe the 6 speed has tighter ratios but aren't the overdrives close? (Around .75 to 1) The main difference is you still have 2000 RPM left with the gas to play with. I test drove 'em all and I thought that empty the diesel was a pig off the line in addition to being noisy. Believe it or not the quickest seat of the pants truck was the 5.4 in a F-150 but I really wanted a Crew cab. No diesel joy here.
I guess my point is, if you want a toy truck buy a gas w/ all the hp. but if you want a real WORK truck and use the hell out of it without it being in the shop all the time, buy the diesel.Like I said I know this from experiance.
And as for being foolish towing 16,000 + ibs with my truck, why would you think that, get in the right truck, and then you know what all of us diesel drivers are talking about your truck may not handle it, but for thoes of us that make a living with our trucks, we know what we are talking about.
Admittedly we're all not big burly working truckin' men, some of us use our truck for daily transportation and recreation. I wish you'd re-read the post I had about a lot of miles and heavy loads the majority of the time. I agree the diesel starts to make sense. I won't put 100,000 miles on a truck in 10 years.
I'm sorry you can't afford the correct size truck for the job you're doing and I hope I'm never at the bottom of a steep grade when you're behind me towing 16000 lbs.
Enjoy your truck and don't work to hard.
What on a gas engine puts it in the shop all the time. diesels have turbos, injectors, and fuel pumps that notoriously don't last much past 100K. I was in the business where the living was made witht he trucks. one company had about 5 ton and a half chevy's and about 15 Superduty (tonand a half) Ford Powerstrokes. Everyone loved the POwerstrokes when they bought them, great power. but they put about 50-60K miles per year on these trucks, and between 80-130K miles, major injector failures, crankshaft sensor probs, and such were leave trucks stranded and costing up to $4000 per truck to cost.
I see LOTS of fleets around here going with V10s and 454s. Gas engines last just as long. cheaper to buy. cheaper to maintain. hell, no one has distributers anymore, so all thats left to tune up is change plugs and wires.
and by the way, these trucks are equipped w/tool bodies weighing 10K-14K lbs. Powerstrokes with 5.13 rear ends averaged purchase cost of ~$30K and got 10 mpg. Chevrolet and Ford gas rigs with 4.5 rear ends cost about $25K, and got between 8 and 9 mpg. And pulled just the same.
if you haven't driven a gas engine of '99 or 2000, you ought to, their torque curve is identical to diesels above 2000 rpms. and all gas engines have different trannies than diesels, so they pretty much stay in the power range at all speeds.
I've driven both. Diesel is very nice when starting from a dead stop. everywhere else, gas holds it own.
not to quote you, but, I've worked my trucks and know what i'm talking about.
Crankshaft sensor problems are less than $200 done at the dealer. You can tell it is the sensor because the trans shifts rough and late while the tach is jumpy. Not $4000.
The pump on my '92 was fine, no sign of leaking and no excessive raw diesel smell either at about 139K. To be honest, I have not heard of any real person with pump problems. I know there is a lot of ranting, raving and bashing out there but the only pump failures that I KNOW of is on a Volvo wagon at about 180K and a VW Rabbit at 140K or so.
I remember joking with my dealer about getting the pump rebuilt at less than under 100K and under warranty. His comment was that they never had to do one. Maybe he was shoveling it, maybe not.
Rich
If you know how to take care of the truck, you wont have to replace the inj. pump so often, like I said my cummins has over 183k on it with the original pump.
As for driving a newer gas eng. my business partner has a 99 dodge v10 ext cab 3500 5sp and 4:10 gears with a paxton supercharger, the truck on the dyno puts out 410 hp and 621 ft.ibs of torque, empty through the 1/4 mile in colorado he could run it and probably be 1/2 way back by the time I make my 1st run, but when we load them up equally and head up the mountians by vail they are almost exactly the same speed pulling the pass, he is getting 4 mpg while I am getting between 8-9 mpg (thats at around 10,000 feet above sea level)REMEMBER his has a supercharger and my truck is stock 215 hp and 440 ft ibs of torque.
Maybe on flat land where ever you guys live, your gas eng. works great, but where I am and what I use it for the diesel is the only way to go.
Remember compare the truck equally, load gears, tranny and grade, then I will tell you what I tell my friend " mess with the best-lose like the rest!"
Nice talking to you all, but need to go and be foolish and haul a 16,000 ib load to Florida with my 183,000 mile cummins.
R.....
Taking care of a truck has nothing to do with the fuel pump. I was a diesel mechanic. i've worked on Cummins, Caterpillars, Detroit Diesels, Yanmar, Internationals, etc. The only way you can take care of a fuel pump is to not run gasoline thru it.
Cummins have a very reliable fuel pump, by far more reliable than the old Ford 7.3 and the GM 6.5, both of which usually lasted about 100-150K.
I agree that for the moutain country, diesel may be a requirement. in Texas, we have some pretty good hills, but the air is thick, and gasolines pull as good as any.
hope your Dodge has enough room for your pride!
P.S. I was at the dodge dealer the other day buying my wife a new durango, and happend to read a mag. that the general manager had on his desk, one part I read said that 73% of all new 1 ton and 3/4 ton trucks sold are DIESEL, wounder why that is, when I get back I will go back and see if I can get a copy of that page, I have never seen the mag. before and the manager said that all new car dealers get them, but it is not avail to the public.?
If that percentage is true than what else would you expect from Dodge? Who in the hell buys their gas motors??
I started my firm with a 78 F-250 with the 351. After @70 trucks and 20 years--only 2 diesels and somehow my gas trucks managed to actually "Work". Hmmmm....I guess I'm lucky, eh?
Therefore I required the engine braking provided by the V-anything and a stick shift.
You can install a jake brake for $1000 but your diesel engine braking is not in the same class as the manual V-anything stick. Aside from safety, you really don't have to use brakes going down hill, thereby saving brake maintenance costs. Furthermore, for you racing/power types, I wonder who would get down the hill faster and live to play another day, a diesel or V- anything stick. I wonder who gets the best gas milage down hill?
Another consideration is the power lost (10% torque) between the stick and automatic. I think to have another 40 ft-# of torque to go up and down mountains is significant. Furthermore, the stick is surely going to outlast the automatic.
Now I realize that sticks make for more work, and if you are willing to drive slow, then the difference between diesel/V-10, or stick vs. auto becomes moot.
The bottom line is that one man's cup of coffee is another man's tea. The above is only meant to be food for thought.
I installed a Reese Titan class V receiver to the 2001 long bed. This allows for 12000 # load carrying capability (not distributing load) for my surge brake trailer. My truck ride also benefits by being relatively isolated from the trailer loads. This also saves wear and tear on the trailer.
In my case, my trailer is some 6500#, and the introduction of a class V weight carrying hitch makes me legal. This is not an issue between diesel vs. V-10. It would only be of interest to those who prefer to tow with a weight carrying system.
That the Reese class V has a capacity of 12000+ #
is interesting, when compared to the 5000# rating that is available by new truck manufacturers. An advantage of a higher rated hitch is that it is stiffer to improve ride performance and it is safer in case of an accident.
Although my Ram has a V-10, its Diesel companion has about the same towing ratings. One significant reason that I chose a V-10 with a stick was that I prefer the superior braking control down hills while towing a trailer.
I also suspect that brakes systems for V-anything sticks last much longer than diesels with exhaust brakes, particularly when having to brake from higher speeds.
You're totally wrong. your engine's compression ratio DOES NOT slow you down. Diesels have a totally open intake. so when you left off the gas, the engine is just free wheeling, and there is no real slow down, unless you install a exhaust brake, which is outside of the engine, and again has nothing to do with compression ratios.
A gas engine has a butterfly valve in the intake. So when you left off of the gas, the butterfly valve closes the intake down to just the idle jets. Now everytime your intake valve opens and pistons go down, they create a vaccuum on the butterfly valve, thus slowing the engine down considerably.
That is why a gasoline engine has much much more engine braking than a diesel.
But the energy losses due to compression are minor compared to the power gains of simultaneous ignition stroke, even at idle. That is proven with thermodynamic equations.
Cliffnotes: big rig exhaust brakes highly restrict the exhaust gases on the "4th" stroke. normal operation, there is zero pressure on piston when exhaust valve opens. with brake on, there is high pressure on piston.
Modv
Yes, that is another point I forgot to mention. because the compression ratio is so high in diesels, the flywheel and engine inertia is design much higher. That way, in between powerstrokes the engine has enough inertia to do the compression stroke with engine momentum. Otherwise, the engine would lug, or run very very badly.
How can you say the energy losses due to compression are minimal when that is one of the driving forces of engine operation? If you are an engineer you know that energy in equals energy out (First law of thermodynamics) Your compression ratio is derived from your bore and stroke in the engine. basically this means that at bottom of stroke there is a full charge of air in the cylinder and at top dead center that air charge is compressed. For example if you have a compression ratio of 10:1 the air is "squeezed" to 1/10 of its original volume from this you can see that the higher the compression ratio, the more energy it will take to compress the air giving you better engine breaking and going back to my previous post (different computer different name) typically a gas engine has a ratio of 9:1 and a diesel 16:1.
An engine does not take a long time to run down because even though the inertia is enough to carry the engine thru the next powerstroke, powerlosses due to fluid bearings are much larger. As i said and explain further, compression losses aren't that much.
As far as compression ratios, you didn't 'hear' what i was saying before.
Answer the question. How does an engine run at idle? answer that and you prove my point.
whether you're coasting downhill at 40, or sitting in the parking lot, IDLE THROTTLE condition exists.
Net energy=combustion energy-internal losses.
At IDLE THROTTLE, net energy better be positive, or your engine doesn't run. which means, compression does not create a negative overall power summation.
Compression ratio has nothing to do with engine braking. otherwise your engine would never run.
understand? Quote your expert mechanics all you want. I hope they don't do big work for you.
Gas engine has better engine braking than diesel. I am not explaining this anymore, at least not with your attitude.
I do have to apologize for being rude though I guess I got a little caught up in the whole topic and got on the offensive.
I will agree that the energy gained upon ignition is much greater than the energy loss due to compression but when the engine is not getting fuel or a very small amount (such as when coasting downhill in gear) your energy gains are next to nothing and the net energy of the engine is negative, what keeps the engine "running" is the momentum of the vehicle transmitted through the drivetrain. Like you said if the compression used up more energy than the combustion then the engine would not run.
With any luck from now on we can understand eachother.
Buy the gas! I put 40,000 miles on an Isuzu diesel before the crankshaft broke (Factory Recall two years later). Put 175,000 miles on a '89 F350 7.3L, lots of glow plug, injector pump and no start problems usually while in the boonies. Nice truck when it was new and when it started easily, learned to dread the winters.....
I currently tow with a 4.8L 1/2 ton silverado, engine works great! Truck is too light for towing with scooters in the bed. I have a 2001 6.0L 325hp Silverado CC LB on order.
I think the market will be flooded with the used sick Powerstrokes in a couple of years.
Best friend has the V10 Ford - great truck.
If you have to have a diesel, buy the Cummins!
Diesels don't slow down worth a damn unless you plug up the exhaust (engine brake) 'cuz they don't have throttle plates in the intake.....
That's what i've been trying to explain for a while.
Sounds like a awesome truck you got coming! why no 8.1??
If I coulda got the 8.1L with a taller rear end and the 6-speed would maybe consider that way, but it's only avail in 4.10 with the LimSlip/Locker plus I kinda like the new "ground up" designed 6.0L AL head as compared to the same ol' 454 bored and stroked with a new head. Ya I know the 454 has a good rep....
Sounds like the right truck for you. Can't believe you can't get 3.73 with 8.1. Only with an automatic?
My little bit of reading says the 8.1 has the same basic bottom end as the 454. Do you know different?