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Which is better? Diesel or Gas engines

marshall8marshall8 Member Posts: 1
I am looking at a Ford F-250 SD, extended cab,
4x4, with either the 7.3 Power Stroke Diesel or the
V-10. This will be a secondary vehicle used to go
on long trips and for work as well as around town.
Not many heavy loads will be pulled. I currently
live in the South where the winters are not too
cold, however, I plan to moved back up North where
the winter temps. stay below freezing for about 3
months and often dip well below zero at night.
Given the general purpose of this vehicle, which
engine is better? Which engine will give me the
least amount of trouble (i.e. cranks after a long
cold soak both with and without plugging up the
battery)? And how about MPG?
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Comments

  • modvptnlmodvptnl Member Posts: 1,352
    This Topic has been beaten to death but here it goes again!!

    The only advantage a diesel has is at max towing at altitude. That's it. Every other towing scenario the gas will tow with the diesel if not better

    The fuel savings of a diesel are are more then offset by the $4000 initial investment. The oil changes are $20-$30 more for the diesel because of double the oil capacity and more expensive filters. Fuel filters must be changed more often plus I believe diesels have water separators to change(?).

    On a personal note the diesel sound is very annoying even though people will respond it's music to their ears.

    The diesel is very sluggish compared to the higher revving V-10.

    Again a personal opinion but who cares if a diesel lasts a zillion miles? If I put on a 100,000 in ten years it will be a lot. I will agree that if people drive 50,000 miles a year with max loads it begins to make sense to own a diesel.

    The last comment would be to drive 'em. Some people love the characteristics of the diesel and would own them regardless of price. I think they're slow unloaded, noisy, smelly, cost too much initially and are higher to maintain.

    Let the flood gates open......again.
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    modvptnl made it too complicated. For YOUR'RE situation--buy the 10 and don't fret, unless you can really save and get the 5.4 since it doesn't sound like you really need the truck in the first place.
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    YOUR!! Damn---where's my brain?? Too much diesel fumes coming in!! Here they come! The legion of diesel fans are coming..........
  • tmigueltmiguel Member Posts: 33
    My Dodge V-10 5 spd is quiet, uses 12-13 mpg, and responds like an overgrown Viper. In the L.A. (So.Cal.) area, it easyly flows with the traffic. When I test drove the Diesels, it was obvious that they don't flow with the traffic. A good test you can try is getting on to the freeway. Price wise, diesel fuel out here is about $1.70 compared with Arco gas at $1.57. The V-10 startss/stops/etc. just like a V-10. The Dodge V-10 is a significant improvement over the Ford V-10 because its much more powerful (torque) and reaches full torque a 1000 rpm under the Ford. Test drive them if you can. I think the biggest problem is that hardly any dealers have V-10 5 spds on the lot for you to test. Anyhow, test drive the vehicles to see if they suit your particular wants.
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Member Posts: 1,352
    The Dodge V-10 has 15 more pounds of torque(less in California) and the same horsepower as the Ford V-10. With 4.30 gearing the Ford more then keeps up with the Dodge and that was with '99's 275 horse motor.

    Tmiguel, I'm glad you like your truck but with the Crew cab option and 4 wheel discs and better build quality the Ford's it.
  • rrichfrrichf Member Posts: 211
    tmiguel,
    I don't know where you're buying fuel. I just got diesel on Tuesday at $1.55. (Ultramar on Brookhurst near Garden Grove Bl.) Fuel, lately, is about the same as unleaded, and most stations in Huntington Beach area are selling in the $1.65 to $1.69 area.

    modvptnl,
    You missed a few important things. Up north you may want to plug the engine block heater in over night. (About 75 watts.) In traffic, the diesel will get much better mileage IF YOU DRIVE WITH A LIGHT FOOT. If you want to be aggressive and play in traffic, your mileage will differ! The one thing that every one seems to miss when comparing gasoline to diesel is torque. The joy of the torque of the diesel (Low RPM) makes the diesel a much easier vehicle to drive.

    A this point I'm on my third diesel and probably will never buy a gasoline powered vehicle again. I think that if you spend a lot of time on the road in a diesel pick up, you'll really develop an a love affair with the diesel. Some where in the 10-15K mile range you'll be asking yourself what took you so long to buy the diesel.

    Rich
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Member Posts: 1,352
    No dispute on the economy issue. But at what price? $4000 buys a lot of regular fuel.

    What exactly is "easier to drive" I mean the V-10 has something like 90% of its 425 lbs of torque at like 2500 RPM's it's not exactly like you got to slip the clutch to get it rolling. And I've said many times before; even though the diesel has more torque on paper its slow revving nature negates any advantage off the line. Yes I know we don't drag race full size trucks, but where's the advantage of torque if the gas motor is still quicker? Easier to drive for me is smoother, quieter, no stinky diesel gas stations to contend with(I know, diesel smells like perfume to hard core diesel owners) all the things the V-10 offers for at least $4000 less.
  • robert1972robert1972 Member Posts: 51
    Somthing to think about,
    First of all if the gas eng. are so good, why are all the big rigs DIESEL!

    Second (I learned this from experiance) hook up a 16,000ib trailor to a diesel then hook it up to a 300 + hp. gas, the gas falls on its face. If you dont tow, and don't plan on putting 200,000 miles on a truck, buy the gas, but it you need to buy a real work truck, buy the diesel (not the GM diesel)The cummins or the navistar.
  • rrichfrrichf Member Posts: 211
    modvptnl,
    Please don't misunderstand. 15-20 years ago it was possible to make an economic case for a diesel in a pick up. Today I think that the economic pay back is a couple hundred thousand miles. My whole point was the sheer joy of those 200K miles! As far as the torque goes..... I don't doubt that you can dump the clutch and go with your v-10. I don't doubt the torque numbers that you're quoting. All I can say is to drive a diesel for that 10K-15K miles. There's just something about the torque that's always there.

    I reread your post and noticed the 2500 RPM comment. In my truck at 2500 RPM I'm cruising at about 85 MPH. Maybe that's it! I'm always in the maximum torque band of the engine. Like I said, I love the diesel. I'm sure that others may not. It is one of those things that are black or white and absolutely no grey area between.

    Rich
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Member Posts: 1,352
    Robert, that big rig comment is silly. Remember I said the comment not you. It's like asking why don't pick ups have 13 speeds and split rear ends. Furthermore if any one tows 16000 lbs with any pick up they're foolish. The top of the line gas and diesels are usually rated the same: around 12000 pounds.

    Rich I'm very happy you enjoy your diesel. That's why I always suggest a test drive, if a diesel drives you nuts in the first few miles it aint getting any better in 15000 miles and vice versa, if you love it instantly; go for it.

    BTW with the exception of the 4.30 rear end the gearing on the Ford is the same. So your 85 would be the same RPM on both gas and diesel with the same trans and rear end. I believe the 6 speed has tighter ratios but aren't the overdrives close? (Around .75 to 1) The main difference is you still have 2000 RPM left with the gas to play with. I test drove 'em all and I thought that empty the diesel was a pig off the line in addition to being noisy. Believe it or not the quickest seat of the pants truck was the 5.4 in a F-150 but I really wanted a Crew cab. No diesel joy here.
  • robert1972robert1972 Member Posts: 51
    sorry but you are wrong about not liking the diesel more as you drive it, when I first bought my dodge I didn't like it at all, it's a 97 and now has over 183,000 miles on it and I love it.

    I guess my point is, if you want a toy truck buy a gas w/ all the hp. but if you want a real WORK truck and use the hell out of it without it being in the shop all the time, buy the diesel.Like I said I know this from experiance.

    And as for being foolish towing 16,000 + ibs with my truck, why would you think that, get in the right truck, and then you know what all of us diesel drivers are talking about your truck may not handle it, but for thoes of us that make a living with our trucks, we know what we are talking about.
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Member Posts: 1,352
    Whatever Robert. Except for the 6 speeds all the drivetrains are the same, including brakes.

    Admittedly we're all not big burly working truckin' men, some of us use our truck for daily transportation and recreation. I wish you'd re-read the post I had about a lot of miles and heavy loads the majority of the time. I agree the diesel starts to make sense. I won't put 100,000 miles on a truck in 10 years.

    I'm sorry you can't afford the correct size truck for the job you're doing and I hope I'm never at the bottom of a steep grade when you're behind me towing 16000 lbs.

    Enjoy your truck and don't work to hard.
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    Robert
    What on a gas engine puts it in the shop all the time. diesels have turbos, injectors, and fuel pumps that notoriously don't last much past 100K. I was in the business where the living was made witht he trucks. one company had about 5 ton and a half chevy's and about 15 Superduty (tonand a half) Ford Powerstrokes. Everyone loved the POwerstrokes when they bought them, great power. but they put about 50-60K miles per year on these trucks, and between 80-130K miles, major injector failures, crankshaft sensor probs, and such were leave trucks stranded and costing up to $4000 per truck to cost.

    I see LOTS of fleets around here going with V10s and 454s. Gas engines last just as long. cheaper to buy. cheaper to maintain. hell, no one has distributers anymore, so all thats left to tune up is change plugs and wires.

    and by the way, these trucks are equipped w/tool bodies weighing 10K-14K lbs. Powerstrokes with 5.13 rear ends averaged purchase cost of ~$30K and got 10 mpg. Chevrolet and Ford gas rigs with 4.5 rear ends cost about $25K, and got between 8 and 9 mpg. And pulled just the same.

    if you haven't driven a gas engine of '99 or 2000, you ought to, their torque curve is identical to diesels above 2000 rpms. and all gas engines have different trannies than diesels, so they pretty much stay in the power range at all speeds.

    I've driven both. Diesel is very nice when starting from a dead stop. everywhere else, gas holds it own.

    not to quote you, but, I've worked my trucks and know what i'm talking about.
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Member Posts: 1,352
    Actually Ford V-10's don't have plug wire either.
  • rrichfrrichf Member Posts: 211
    cdean,
    Crankshaft sensor problems are less than $200 done at the dealer. You can tell it is the sensor because the trans shifts rough and late while the tach is jumpy. Not $4000.

    The pump on my '92 was fine, no sign of leaking and no excessive raw diesel smell either at about 139K. To be honest, I have not heard of any real person with pump problems. I know there is a lot of ranting, raving and bashing out there but the only pump failures that I KNOW of is on a Volvo wagon at about 180K and a VW Rabbit at 140K or so.

    I remember joking with my dealer about getting the pump rebuilt at less than under 100K and under warranty. His comment was that they never had to do one. Maybe he was shoveling it, maybe not.

    Rich
  • robert1972robert1972 Member Posts: 51
    We all know about the chev diesel, that is why they are putting the isuzu diesel in it now. As for the ford, it did and probably still has problems, have you found any posted on the cummins? Didn't think so.
    If you know how to take care of the truck, you wont have to replace the inj. pump so often, like I said my cummins has over 183k on it with the original pump.
    As for driving a newer gas eng. my business partner has a 99 dodge v10 ext cab 3500 5sp and 4:10 gears with a paxton supercharger, the truck on the dyno puts out 410 hp and 621 ft.ibs of torque, empty through the 1/4 mile in colorado he could run it and probably be 1/2 way back by the time I make my 1st run, but when we load them up equally and head up the mountians by vail they are almost exactly the same speed pulling the pass, he is getting 4 mpg while I am getting between 8-9 mpg (thats at around 10,000 feet above sea level)REMEMBER his has a supercharger and my truck is stock 215 hp and 440 ft ibs of torque.
    Maybe on flat land where ever you guys live, your gas eng. works great, but where I am and what I use it for the diesel is the only way to go.
    Remember compare the truck equally, load gears, tranny and grade, then I will tell you what I tell my friend " mess with the best-lose like the rest!"
    Nice talking to you all, but need to go and be foolish and haul a 16,000 ib load to Florida with my 183,000 mile cummins.
    R.....
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    Robert
    Taking care of a truck has nothing to do with the fuel pump. I was a diesel mechanic. i've worked on Cummins, Caterpillars, Detroit Diesels, Yanmar, Internationals, etc. The only way you can take care of a fuel pump is to not run gasoline thru it.

    Cummins have a very reliable fuel pump, by far more reliable than the old Ford 7.3 and the GM 6.5, both of which usually lasted about 100-150K.

    I agree that for the moutain country, diesel may be a requirement. in Texas, we have some pretty good hills, but the air is thick, and gasolines pull as good as any.

    hope your Dodge has enough room for your pride!
  • robert1972robert1972 Member Posts: 51
    not so much dodge and my pride, but the cummins diesel.
    P.S. I was at the dodge dealer the other day buying my wife a new durango, and happend to read a mag. that the general manager had on his desk, one part I read said that 73% of all new 1 ton and 3/4 ton trucks sold are DIESEL, wounder why that is, when I get back I will go back and see if I can get a copy of that page, I have never seen the mag. before and the manager said that all new car dealers get them, but it is not avail to the public.?
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    thats interesting, i didn't think the percentage would be that high. let us know if you find it.
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    Robert,

    If that percentage is true than what else would you expect from Dodge? Who in the hell buys their gas motors??
    I started my firm with a 78 F-250 with the 351. After @70 trucks and 20 years--only 2 diesels and somehow my gas trucks managed to actually "Work". Hmmmm....I guess I'm lucky, eh?
  • tmigueltmiguel Member Posts: 33
    I forgot to mention one of the significant reasons I chose the V-10 stick (RAM 4x4) over the diesel was based on my motorhome vacation of last year. If you have an interest in trailering where there are mountain roads, such as Wyo/Utah (Flaming Gorge), going down 9-12 % grades (by the miles), is quite an experience with trailering (I was towing a CJ-5). I found it MORE important to have adequate braking going down hill than power going up hill. In 1st gear anything you will get up the hill soner or later, but if you lose your brakes, you will get downhill sooner.

    Therefore I required the engine braking provided by the V-anything and a stick shift.

    You can install a jake brake for $1000 but your diesel engine braking is not in the same class as the manual V-anything stick. Aside from safety, you really don't have to use brakes going down hill, thereby saving brake maintenance costs. Furthermore, for you racing/power types, I wonder who would get down the hill faster and live to play another day, a diesel or V- anything stick. I wonder who gets the best gas milage down hill?

    Another consideration is the power lost (10% torque) between the stick and automatic. I think to have another 40 ft-# of torque to go up and down mountains is significant. Furthermore, the stick is surely going to outlast the automatic.

    Now I realize that sticks make for more work, and if you are willing to drive slow, then the difference between diesel/V-10, or stick vs. auto becomes moot.

    The bottom line is that one man's cup of coffee is another man's tea. The above is only meant to be food for thought.

    I installed a Reese Titan class V receiver to the 2001 long bed. This allows for 12000 # load carrying capability (not distributing load) for my surge brake trailer. My truck ride also benefits by being relatively isolated from the trailer loads. This also saves wear and tear on the trailer.
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Member Posts: 1,352
    So what if it's only rated for 12000#'s go ahead and tow 16000.......Heck, make it 20000. Ratings mean nothing just ask them "working" diesel owning men. LOL!!!
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    LOL! good one.....
  • tmigueltmiguel Member Posts: 33
    To maybe clarify a bit. Prior to the class V load carrying hitch, you were stuck with using either a 5-wheel hitch or load distributing hitch (for over 5000 # trailers. If you have a surge brake system on your trailer (like boat trailers do), you had some basic problems if your trailer rig was over 5000#. If you had an accident, your fault for not using a safe tow system.

    In my case, my trailer is some 6500#, and the introduction of a class V weight carrying hitch makes me legal. This is not an issue between diesel vs. V-10. It would only be of interest to those who prefer to tow with a weight carrying system.

    That the Reese class V has a capacity of 12000+ #
    is interesting, when compared to the 5000# rating that is available by new truck manufacturers. An advantage of a higher rated hitch is that it is stiffer to improve ride performance and it is safer in case of an accident.

    Although my Ram has a V-10, its Diesel companion has about the same towing ratings. One significant reason that I chose a V-10 with a stick was that I prefer the superior braking control down hills while towing a trailer.

    I also suspect that brakes systems for V-anything sticks last much longer than diesels with exhaust brakes, particularly when having to brake from higher speeds.
  • lariat1lariat1 Member Posts: 461
    how a diesel exhaust brake wears out the brake system. If you bother to check, an exhaust brake ports the exhaust back into the intake allowing the compression of the engine to slow everything down, so the higher the engine compression the faster you slow down. (If you own a cummins it is about 16:1 compression If you own a V-anything it might be 9:1). I have an exhaust brake on my 24v cummins and I can bring it and a 7000# trailer to a stop just like I was unloaded all with the flick of a switch and light braking. And how do you figure you can slow a v-10 with a stick down using gears better than a cummins with a stick? The same principle applies the higher the compression the better the engine braking.
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    lariat
    You're totally wrong. your engine's compression ratio DOES NOT slow you down. Diesels have a totally open intake. so when you left off the gas, the engine is just free wheeling, and there is no real slow down, unless you install a exhaust brake, which is outside of the engine, and again has nothing to do with compression ratios.

    A gas engine has a butterfly valve in the intake. So when you left off of the gas, the butterfly valve closes the intake down to just the idle jets. Now everytime your intake valve opens and pistons go down, they create a vaccuum on the butterfly valve, thus slowing the engine down considerably.

    That is why a gasoline engine has much much more engine braking than a diesel.
  • lariat1lariat1 Member Posts: 461
    I guess all those intake valves just stay open when the piston comes up that way the air charge and fuel can be blown out of the top of the engine. If I remember right the cam shaft turns and opens valves in sequence with the cranck shaft which is connected to the pistons via connecting rod. As the piston is pulled down the intake valves are opened allowing air in the cylinder and at the same time fuel is delivered to the cylinder then as the piston is pushed up the intake valves close and due to the heat of compression (or the spark plug firing for your gas engine) the fuel air mixture explodes creating pressure on the top of the piston driving it down, then as the piston is pushed back up the exhaust valves open and let the exhaust gasses out, basic 4 stroke operation(count em if you like). What gives you your (compression brake) is the second stroke when there is no fuel to burn and the engine compresses air. Oh yes the exhaust brake let enlighten you on them they work by taking the exhaust gasses and sendng them to the intake creating more pressure on the top of the piston therefore increasing the engine braking. If you dont believe me take an engine apart or go ask any engine mechanic.
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    ok buddy boy, i guess you're the genius. oh, I was a diesel mechanic, and have probably rebuilt more engines than you knew existed. i'm also a mechanical engineer and have done engine design and research thru school. but you know best.
  • lariat1lariat1 Member Posts: 461
    What all the valves are for in an engine, but if you think there is a pressure buildup inside the cylinder walls with any valve open we know why you were a diesel mechanic. Maybe I am wrong explain to me the operation of a 4-stroke engine. It just seems to me in order for there to be enough pressure to build up heat to ignite diesel and air intake and exhuast valves must be shut. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    You are correct. the valves shut. thats how an engine works.

    But the energy losses due to compression are minor compared to the power gains of simultaneous ignition stroke, even at idle. That is proven with thermodynamic equations.
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    If it wasn't true, there's no way an engine could run at idle.
  • rrichfrrichf Member Posts: 211
    OK, so how does the "compression" brake work on a big rig?
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Member Posts: 1,352
    Doesn't the fact that the diesel has a much heavier reciprocating mass(flywheel, crank, etc.)have anything to do with the ability to slow down? I know flywheel weight on motorcycles makes a huge difference in lugging ability and engine braking.
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    Rich
    Cliffnotes: big rig exhaust brakes highly restrict the exhaust gases on the "4th" stroke. normal operation, there is zero pressure on piston when exhaust valve opens. with brake on, there is high pressure on piston.

    Modv
    Yes, that is another point I forgot to mention. because the compression ratio is so high in diesels, the flywheel and engine inertia is design much higher. That way, in between powerstrokes the engine has enough inertia to do the compression stroke with engine momentum. Otherwise, the engine would lug, or run very very badly.
  • laramiesltlaramieslt Member Posts: 10
    If you are talking about a one lunger diesel. If you have taken so many engines apart I am sure you have noticed that the crankshaft is offset at each connecting rod I may be wrong but isnt that so when a cylinder is on its power stroke it is driving one or more of the other cylinders through its exahust stroke? If inertia was driving the engine when you accelerate the engine and let off real quick it would take a long time for the engine to coast down.
    How can you say the energy losses due to compression are minimal when that is one of the driving forces of engine operation? If you are an engineer you know that energy in equals energy out (First law of thermodynamics) Your compression ratio is derived from your bore and stroke in the engine. basically this means that at bottom of stroke there is a full charge of air in the cylinder and at top dead center that air charge is compressed. For example if you have a compression ratio of 10:1 the air is "squeezed" to 1/10 of its original volume from this you can see that the higher the compression ratio, the more energy it will take to compress the air giving you better engine breaking and going back to my previous post (different computer different name) typically a gas engine has a ratio of 9:1 and a diesel 16:1.
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    OK smartass, look up in Mark's Handbook for Mechanical Engineers the combustion engine section, and you'll see a whole section devoted to flywheel design, detailing inertial effects of a flywheel in all applications. or go to your local university, if its worth a dern, and check out a book on engine design. 6,8,10, 12, 16 cylinders. there is always a time lag between powerstrokes and a powerstroke does NOT have a uniform torque, it adds a very herky jerky torque to the motor. The best balanced V-20 would hardly run without a flywheel.

    An engine does not take a long time to run down because even though the inertia is enough to carry the engine thru the next powerstroke, powerlosses due to fluid bearings are much larger. As i said and explain further, compression losses aren't that much.

    As far as compression ratios, you didn't 'hear' what i was saying before.

    Answer the question. How does an engine run at idle? answer that and you prove my point.

    whether you're coasting downhill at 40, or sitting in the parking lot, IDLE THROTTLE condition exists.

    Net energy=combustion energy-internal losses.

    At IDLE THROTTLE, net energy better be positive, or your engine doesn't run. which means, compression does not create a negative overall power summation.

    Compression ratio has nothing to do with engine braking. otherwise your engine would never run.

    understand? Quote your expert mechanics all you want. I hope they don't do big work for you.

    Gas engine has better engine braking than diesel. I am not explaining this anymore, at least not with your attitude.
  • lariat1lariat1 Member Posts: 461
    I am not saying that compression creates a negative net power what I am saying is that when there is no fuel being put in a cylinder and the engine is coasting down (or at least trying to) due to the fact that the crankshaft is connected to the drivetrain your largest energy loss is the compression cycle, the power stroke which the largest source of energy is taken away with no fuel.
    I do have to apologize for being rude though I guess I got a little caught up in the whole topic and got on the offensive.
    I will agree that the energy gained upon ignition is much greater than the energy loss due to compression but when the engine is not getting fuel or a very small amount (such as when coasting downhill in gear) your energy gains are next to nothing and the net energy of the engine is negative, what keeps the engine "running" is the momentum of the vehicle transmitted through the drivetrain. Like you said if the compression used up more energy than the combustion then the engine would not run.
    With any luck from now on we can understand eachother.
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    compression work is same at coast down as it is at idle. Fuel is same as coast down as it is at idle. If compression ratio is slowing you down on coast down, it would slow you down and kill at idle.
  • markbuckmarkbuck Member Posts: 1,021
    40 yr old ME, races off road motorcycles, tows travel trailers all over the west, owned two diesels, does most of own vehicle work, lives at 7,000' in N Az.

    Buy the gas! I put 40,000 miles on an Isuzu diesel before the crankshaft broke (Factory Recall two years later). Put 175,000 miles on a '89 F350 7.3L, lots of glow plug, injector pump and no start problems usually while in the boonies. Nice truck when it was new and when it started easily, learned to dread the winters.....

    I currently tow with a 4.8L 1/2 ton silverado, engine works great! Truck is too light for towing with scooters in the bed. I have a 2001 6.0L 325hp Silverado CC LB on order.

    I think the market will be flooded with the used sick Powerstrokes in a couple of years.

    Best friend has the V10 Ford - great truck.

    If you have to have a diesel, buy the Cummins!

    Diesels don't slow down worth a damn unless you plug up the exhaust (engine brake) 'cuz they don't have throttle plates in the intake.....
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    Markbuck,
    That's what i've been trying to explain for a while.

    Sounds like a awesome truck you got coming! why no 8.1??
  • markbuckmarkbuck Member Posts: 1,021
    But my travel trailer weighs 5,000 lbs most of the time (GVWR 7,000) and usually have about 1,000 lbs of stuff in the bed so the 6.0L with 4.10 rear end is just fine (probably 9,500 lb trailer rating when they announce).

    If I coulda got the 8.1L with a taller rear end and the 6-speed would maybe consider that way, but it's only avail in 4.10 with the LimSlip/Locker plus I kinda like the new "ground up" designed 6.0L AL head as compared to the same ol' 454 bored and stroked with a new head. Ya I know the 454 has a good rep....
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    ehh, i don't think the 8.1 shares much of ANYTHINg with the 454. Nobody says anything bad about the 6.0, and next year it gets better, so oughtta be good.

    Sounds like the right truck for you. Can't believe you can't get 3.73 with 8.1. Only with an automatic?
  • markbuckmarkbuck Member Posts: 1,021
    Might be able to get the 3.73 if you don't go locker/lim slip on rear end.

    My little bit of reading says the 8.1 has the same basic bottom end as the 454. Do you know different?
  • roger350roger350 Member Posts: 157
    What I have read says the 8.1 is a stroked 454 with new heads and intake/injection. They went to the symmetrical ports/runners, equal length I believe. The kicker is I believe they left the valve angles identical to the 454, and as I understand it, the extreme push rod angles were the worst part about the 454 top end. I guess the only other thing I have heard about the 454 was about oil leaks, and of course gas mileage. Don't really know if they leaked more than the small blocks though? If they would offer the cylinder cutout feature for highway mileage that Truck Trends rote about, I would get the 8.1 in a heartbeat!
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    i thought it was new engine from ground up. i could be wrong. i read about it months ago, and frankly can't remember now the details. i thought the bottom end was different from 454. top end is no doubt very different. nonetheless, i think its going to be the top dog when it comes out.
  • laramiesltlaramieslt Member Posts: 10
    I thought that the 8.1 was an updated version of the 502, I guess not although the 502 would make one hell of a truck engine I think, I have a 502 in my boat and it has about 360hp and burns 13 gal/hr @ 3300 rpm, and for a boat engine with a jet drive that is really good. Either way I agree with you both Ford and Dodge better do something to keep up with that monster V-8 seeing that a 6.0l can almost keep up with their V-10's.
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    Isn't the 502 a stroked 454?
  • laramiesltlaramieslt Member Posts: 10
    I believe it is that is why I guess the new engine is not a 502. Supposedly the only problem with the 502 over the 454 is that the engine isn't as strong....but I have never heard of a 502 failing and there is no comparison to the 454.
  • roger350roger350 Member Posts: 157
    I just looked on gmpowertrain.com, the 8.1 is a stroked 454. The top end is new. It said nothing about the valve/push rod angles I spoke about before. That information was in an article in Truck Trends, maybe two issues ago? They said the valve/push rod angles were retained from the 454. I did not look up the 502, but it may a stroked and bored 454? 8.1L comes out to 495 in^3, hell, the way these guys round off things, they might even be the same engine? But gmpowertrain.com was clear about the 8.1, a stroked 454, (identical bore as 454). Have a great weekend.
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Member Posts: 1,352
    Where did you get your 454 vs 502 info? My understanding is the 502 is stronger than the 454 for one main reason: the siamesed cylinders. There is no water jackets between a 502's cylinders making it a more rigid block.
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