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Comments
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Some of the GM cars still soldier on with 4 speed autos -- no one asked me, but that seems like a joke.
Diesel would immediately improve performance, lower pollution (with the clean diesel now coming on line) and improve mileage by about 20% - 40%. If your gas SUV is getting 15mpg, going to 18mpg would be a good thing, no?
If you manipulate the engine for even more torque, and add a ratio or three to the transmission, a smaller engine could be made to pretty much feel as potent as before but improve mileage by 30% -- taking you to 19.5mpg from 15mpg.
Most folks would never know the difference, except the total cost to drive would decrease.
It'll never get off the ground. :surprise:
So yeah alot of folks recognize the Acura brand as a major player and choice. I don't it's just edmunds, that is promoting the brand but rather it's member/fan base.
Rocky
P.S. "I'll take 2 and see ya in the morning"
Rocky
http://autos.msn.com/advice/article.aspx?contentid=4018922
Rocky
Who thinks of Prius as a midsize car, or of Sonata as a full-size? The little Focus wagon is a midsize wagon? And on it goes.
Also, the VW TDIs always win every category where they are entered, and we don't get them in California, making their win in like FOUR CATEGORIES totally irrelevant here.
Personal peeves only, not particularly faulting the article or anything.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The Smart cars will be the new fuel economy bang-for-the-buck champs if they are ever really imported. Could be my next car! :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
http://www.zapworld.com/cars/smartcar.asp
Lotsa luck in that roller skate. $25,000??!! I don't think so....
http://www.smartusa.com/
To be honest, after going to Africa I have a new found respect for diesels, even small ones. When you live some place where getting from point A to point B is more challenging than flying down some super smooth ribbon of concrete or asphalt diesel makes a lot of sense. After all that is one of the reasons I like the big diesel pickups. Powerstroke, Cummings, Duramax all have pretty good standings in my book.
All of those Nissan and Toyota mini vans with non turbo diesels impressed me with their tuffness during the time I road in them. I realized that for the last few years I have been far to concerned with getting somewhere in a hurry when I need to slow down and smell the roses. Zero to sixty is nice for bragging rights but the day comes when we have to realize you can only challenge the road so many times before you lose and you only need to lose once.
The subject is fuel economy and the most bang for your buck. With than in mind it is hard to beat a diesel even if you are considering a truck or small car. If you live in a small community like I do and are lucky enough to not have to go off of the mountain much maybe even an electric car like the old "Think" would work. The two closest "Towns" to my house are one mile and six miles respectively so getting back and forth from them could be accomplished with an electric car. But for now almost any of the small 4 banger cars will do. The Focus, Civic, Corolla sized cars and even the Camry and Accord sized cars get over 30 mpg and offer all the comfort and features most of us would want. Still, the 3/4/ton diesel pickup with a GVR of over 8500 pounds and room for five adults that still gets over 20 mpg is a lot of bang for the buck.
Simplicity is the key. We have traded simplicity for complexity to attain a tiny improvement in emissions. In the case of hybrids it is SUPER complexity. I think it is going to bite us in the rear end over the long haul. These complex emissions systems will fail and have already failed. The price to repair is outrageous. American ingenuity will come to the rescue and bypass the crap and we will have worse emissions than if we had stayed with the simpler designs used in the late 1980s and early 1990s. The amount of improvement we have gained for the thousands extra in vehicle cost is plain stupid. According to the smog check guy when I took our 1990 Lexus LS400 in for a license check, told me our car ran cleaner than many cars 10 years newer. Some radicals will not be happy until a vehicle that costs $35k will be $25k in safety & emissions equipment.
This wasn't meant to be a rant about added features that are forced on us. Even if the average clean air device does seem to decrease fuel mileage a bit. I agree on the idea of diesel and what smog laws have and will do to keep them out of our hands. Here in California the big problem will be the restriction on Particulents. Even modern european diesels don't meet our standards for that. Low sulphur fuel is cleaner but not as clean as our California grade low sulphur gas. So they will add particulant traps. A good solution except they are items that must be serviced and our smog legal vehicles have a smog system that are service free for something like 100,000 miles.
we give lip service to fuel mileage but no one wants it bad enough to change their lifestyle. In 1989 I used to car pool with a guy that had a VW Rabbit diesel. The little car was slower off the line than a city bus but it got better than 40 MPG. Today, just shy of 20 years later, we are cheering hybrids that cost more than three VW rabbits did new and they are hard pressed to get 40 MPG in real world application. This is not a case of the free market it is a case of the tree huggers looking for the sky to fall. Survey after survey has indicated that the buying public is interested in diesel cars and trucks and even SUVs but CARB just won't hear of it. Yes I am as guilty as anyone by finding a way passed the rules and getting a 3/4 ton because it doesn't have to meet the same standards as my car. But I get a lot better fuel mileage than a 1/2 ton truck with a gas engine. The 1/2 ton GM gets 14-16 in town and 18/21 on the open road. But I have never seen one get that with any load on any trip my friends and i have been on. The Dodge and Ford 1/2 ton aren't any better and even Toyota and Honda are only in this ball park and Nissan is even a bit less. All are smaller lighter trucks and yet with a load or without I get better fuel mileage.
Yes, I agree diesels are not the solution for everyone. Yes diesel still smells as you pump it, and the smell sticks with you. Yes diesels cost more when you buy them but they are proven and for most people they are still running long after their gas counter parts have died.
That is what I think of when I think of bang for the buck.
Today with gas engines, you can have it all - power, low emissions, and good fuel economy, if you don't go overboard on power (or overall weight).
As for diesels, I don't think there is a huge pent-up demand in the US -- they stink, smoke, and clatter (or at least that's what people still believe). Plus who wants to get the messy fuel on their hands when they fill up? Also, people with long memories remember all too well the GM diesel fiasco of the late 70s/early 80s. Plus that early Rabbit was a little tin can of a car that neither of you would personally drive, based on your past posts.
Complexity -- well, there's plenty of that in areas that have nothing to do with safety or emissions. How about nav systems, DVD systems, voice recognition, seats that are power adjustable 14 ways from Sunday, and those danged "one button" controls like iDrive, COMAND, and whatever Audi's system is called?
If they are not more complex why are they so much more expensive. I replaced the Catalytic convertor in our Mazda 626 prior to getting a clean smog check. Cost installed $151. At least two Prius II owners have had catalytic convertors replaced out of warranty cost $1900-$2100. Is this more complex or is Toyota that much more greedy than other automakers?
I agree that much of the complexity is doodads. How can you separate them when the NAV is integral with the operation of the car?
On diesel you are comparing 1970s technology with 2006 technology. Look at the gas cars from that era. I tried to buy a Dasher Diesel wagon in 1978. It was a year waiting list. I ended up with a POC Honda Accord. I should have waited the year. Look at the diesel forum. It is as active as the hybrid forum. Those that have diesels and those that want diesel. I will not buy gas car after owning the Passat TDI. Diesel anything offers more "Bang for Your Buck".
As for diesel, I am gradually coming to like it a little more, but I will not buy one until the NOx and particulate emissions are entirely comparable to gas cars. Which I believe are two issues they will eventually be able to solve, but haven't fully solved yet.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Why did Prius owners have pay for a cat? Wouldn't it still have been under the emissions warranty?
Speaking of exhaust systems, I haven't had to touch mine in any of my last 5 cars, including a 1990 Mercury Sable, 1997, 2004, and 2005 Toyota Camrys, and 1998 Nissan Frontier (although the "check engine light" just went on in the last one). We don't have smog checks, however, in central VA (still too rural).
About diesel cars, I said that's how people still think of them -- 1970s technology. Europeans didn't have the awful GM diesel V8s, so no bad memories there!
Why do you consider a gas engine that puts out more CO, CO2 & HC cleaner than a diesel engine that puts out more NoX? I believe they have PM cleaned up as of the ULSD mandate. At least in CA.
I remember one girl that was faced with a $2100 cat convertor bill had 91k miles. She said Toyota would not cover it. At the time I did look up the price of a Camry cat convertor and it was $235. Problem being no aftermarket parts for the Prius. At least at that time.
As for the CO/CO2 vs NOx debate, well you know neither is good. I am not really prioritizing one over the other, but there are some gas engines doing a pretty good job of both. NOx are the primary smog-forming emissions, and I have witnessed enough smog here in California to last a lifetime! In the LA and San Joaquin basins, they still have close to 100 days a year that exceed EPA standards for air quality because of smog, and of course the central valley exceeds the EPA standards almost all the time for particulate matter in the air.
Bottom line: what I want is BOTH: zero smog-forming (PZEV) and particulate emissions with high fuel economy (my next car should make 50 mpg, as my current car makes 40 mpg). Pie in the sky? I sure hope not.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I imagine a big share of that PM is caused by trucks running with little or no emissions devices. CA has screwed that up so bad it will probably devastate the trucking industry. CA trucks have particulate filters and CA diesel is cleaner. The kicker is they tacked on an additional 18 cents of state tax. So most of the truckers coming in and out of the state buy diesel in AZ or NV. They can haul in PU a load and get out on the dirty diesel they bought for 30-50 cents less per gallon. When your talking 3-6 MPG that makes a big difference to your bottom line. And I don't think they are worried about the air you and I breathe.
Then according to CARB the ships coming in at San Pedro are burning diesel that is as much as 3000 PPM sulfur. They sit with engines running out in the harbor waiting their turn to unload all the crap we buy from the Pacific Rim. One ship's exhaust is equal to 12,000 car exhausts. That just gets blown in and sits up against the San Bernardino Mtns.
So for us to worry about a pound more pollution per year between a diesel and PZEV car is ridiculous.
As for the difference in NOx emissions between diesel and gas with present leading-edge technology, I believe the difference annually is measured in tons, not pounds. And of course, gas engines have no particulate emissions.
But as I said before, I am warming up to diesel. As soon as they conquer these problems, I will be right there ready to buy. I think they will do so in five years or less (maybe thinking slightly optimistically here). Unless someone beats them to market with a gas-powered minicar (non-hybrid) designed to actually save gas instead of shoot my butt to 60 mph in 5 seconds or less. Can you say, Smart car? ;-)
The current Fortwo model with 90ish hp (I forget the exact number) pulls 53 mpg combined on the European cycle, and with that little weight, it is still respectable in acceleration (similar to 4-cylinder Camry). I think they could make a decent business case for selling that one in the U.S.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
supposedly Penske has signed a deal to sell the Fortwo. I looked them over in Canada and would not mind having one. I would not consider the gasser at only 53 MPG. They only sell the diesel in Canada, or at least at the dealership I visited. They are selling as fast as they get them. The manager told me he has one customer that hit 90 MPG with his. Cool little cars and you can park in about the space of a Harley.
Take my '04 Honda Civic Hybrid for example. I drive 35,000 miles a year in a highway commute into/out of Atlanta from N. Ga in extremely hilly terrain. The long drive put me into an economy car.
MSRP was $19,500 and the dealers in my area wanted around $23. NO SALE. I got onto the internet and found a place 3 states away which gave me a quote for $18,000. I brought that quote into a nearby dealer and ended up buying for around $18,500 which was around $1,000 more than a similarly loaded Civic EX.
When I bought my hybrid there were 3 on the lot to choose from. I heard on the radio last week people follow new ones to the dealer and buy right off the truck.
(Diesels too!)
I've learned not to be trapped in the notion that a car only gets what it gets with MPG, and found out how much driving habits effect the wallet at the pump.
EX VS HYBRID
I learned that lesson in my Civic Hybrid and my last 3 tanks are calculated at 73,68 and 71MPG. I wouldn't have learned this valuable lesson in driving an EX.
I admit becoming radical about automotive efficiency and not driving my car "normally", but there isn't a plain-ol EX on the planet anywhere getting tanks +70MPG, and certainly not an automatic transmission and not consistently.
So at least in my own case (And many,many others) the EX's 20's to low-mid 30's MPG vs +70MPG shows the hybrid is more bang for the buck.
With the driving lessons learned raised our Grand Caravan from 16-18 to around 22 with basic, simple, non-radical techniques. That's another big benefit.
Hybrid vs diesel
Diesel automobiles are nice fuel efficient cars. Big leaps and bounds have been made in their improvement but I believe its best application is in a larger vehicle. A few years from now we'll replace the Grand Caravan, hopefully with a new Honda diesel van.
Diesel and hybrid MPG remain about the same for the average driver. There are websites which track and compete between the two average about equal.
With that said hybrid capability in MPG is far greater than diesel autos. I don't know of any unmodified automatic TDI's for example which can reach 70MPG or more and do it consistently.
Yes there are a few hybrid owners who get less than expected but diesel as well. Disgruntled hybrid owners always get the press, just as broken down VW's have. It doesn't reflect the average by any means.
Diesel enthusiasts say hybrids are overly complicated. Toyota might be for the argument of 100% relying on hybrid drive to move.
Honda's Civic Hybrid is entirely different, very close to its sister the EX but with electronics to assist its smaller more fuel efficient engine.
I plan to drive my hybrid for well over 350,000 miles over the 10 years I'll own it.
I have 71,000 miles on it and is time for a new set of tires and a 12V regular car battery and has no reason it won't go the distance. My dealer says my brakes are practically like new.
Funny how diesel enthusiasts rip hybrids, and many hybrid drivers rip diesel. Back and forth how hybrids are overly complicated, diesels smoke. Batteries cost $5,000 every 3 years and most TDI's break down. Diesels won't start in the winter and hybrids aren't highway runners. Never ends.
Bah! Wouldn't it be nice if we could just promote efficient autos in general?
I look forward to my clean burning, fuel efficient diesel van of the future.
I couldn't get anything like the Fortwo. If not for my family of 5, and the micro-car only has 3 star crash rating. When vehicles that small come to mind, more bang for the buck with a Honda Insight hybrid, at least it is capable of over 110MPG.
Yes, we only get the CDI here.
I too wouldn't mind having one - except they are priced about as much as a Civic/Corolla.
The big problem with the gas-sippers here (hybrids excluded) is that their manufacturers treat them as the bottom of the barrel. Strippo cars with crappy hard plastic interiors.
I hope we get at least one gas choice in the States, though.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2005 Passat TDI TCO
Miles driven = 8376
Cost new = $25,689 cash out the door
Alaska license = $35
Diesel bought = $851.42
Insurance = $1206
Oil change = $51
Total cost to own for 13 months = $27,832.42
Sold cash $29,000
Profit = $1,167.58
Or a total profit per mile (PPM) of 13.9 cents.
I could have made more. I am not a greedy man. If I break even after a couple years on the truck that will be OK. Buying and selling cars can be profitable. Look at all the fancy showrooms full of cars and trucks. You have to buy in the right place and sell high where they bring a premium. PT Barnum set the stage for the automotive industry. With his famous saying "There's a Sucker Born Every Minute".
Without the threat of snow, I can imagine it would be a better year-round car in BC than in Toronto.
I personally don't know how they do in snow, but physics tells me blustery winds and icy road conditions, coupled with a very light car with flat side-panels - do not make for awe-inspiring roadholding.
And on the interstate highways - forget it.
How did the car get from Alaska to So Cal where you sold it?
Don't tell me you drove it.
Let me put it this way. It was never further North than Armstrong VW in Portland Oregon. I also only used BP/ARCO ULSD after the first free tank of diesel. It was licensed where I am a legal resident and have voted since 1970. Funny thing is, the first of dozens of prospective buyers paid my price. And he was from AZ. They are legal to buy there. He just never found a Passat TDI Wagon in AZ. I delivered it to Yuma, AZ for a small fee.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
R&T ran a little blurb in its technical section this month, which may be fluff or may actually mean something, talking about how the EPA is closer to certifying urea injection for diesels to meet the new emissions standards, which would be good news for the 45 states that don't follow CARB.
I was shocked and stunned the other day to read that more than 40% of all car sales nationwide occur in the five CARB states (CA, NY, MA, VT, one other I forget)?? Wow. So diesel still has its work cut out for it, even if it gets EPA approval.
I look forward to production plug-in hybrid models. That might be an alternative to a Smart car for me. TALK ABOUT bang for your fuel economy buck! :-)
(Of course, I would have to give up my desire for a manual transmission if I were to go the plug-in hybrid route. Not sure I could do that)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
There's a snag with plug-in hybrids though. If you constantly charge and discharge a battery, you shorten its life considerably. So whereas a Prius' batteries don't vary much in their level of charge (fairly constant range), any hybrid that allows the batteries to run from low charge to high charge is going to eat up batteries.
I suspect this will negate any gain in operating costs.
You don't get something for nothing in the world of physics I guess.
Problem is, Detroit "brass" thinks the US buyer does not WANT IT.
Technical fixes are available now, and in many cases they are inexpensive.
A landmark 2002 study by the National Academy of Sciences and recent analyses by the Environmental Protection Agency and the U.S. Department of Transportation found 31 easily available technologies for cutting fuel consumption, from easier rolling tires to sleeker, stronger yet lighter bodies to revolutionary new engines.
Most offer 1 percent to 6 percent better fuel economy for less than $200, for example:
-Putting more slope on the rear and lowering vehicles that won't see heavy off-road use. For zero cost, this cuts drag behind and under a vehicle for several percent of extra fuel savings.
-Using low-friction lubricants (average $10) and laser-polished cylinders and heads.
-Turbocharging or forcing air into the engine. By boosting power, a less expensive four-cylinder engine can substitute for a six-cylinder and deliver up to 15percent better fuel economy for the same price.
-Shutting down unneeded cylinders at cruising speeds. Costs $180-200 for 5 percent to 20 percent added fuel economy, or at least 20 more miles for a tank of gas in a sport utility vehicle.
In 2003, transportation experts at the Union of Concerned Scientists redesigned the Ford Explorer using a handful of such technologies and boosted fuel economy 31 percent, to almost 29 miles per gallon, for an added cost of $600. Tinkering more, they squeezed out 36.3 miles per gallon for $2,315.
Would America pay $2300 more for an SUV the size of an Explorer which got 36.3 MPG?
I'm willing to bet my house they WOULD.
LISTEN UP DETROIT !!!!
At home my friend drives an F250 with the Powerstroke diesel. The gross weight of his truck is close to 10,000 lbs., but he's told me he still gets around 21 mpg on the highway.
I recently bought a new F150 SuperCrew (I definitely didn't buy it for efficiency). It weighs 3000 lbs less than my friend's 250 and with the 4.6 liter V-8, I don't get any better mileage than he does. I bought the truck because it works for my family, and I plan on driving it for a good while, but if Ford were to introduce a smaller, lighter diesel engine that would get the F150 to 30 mpg or better on the highway I'd have to give it a look.
Of course it would. Someone posted on another board about a trip they took in Alaska in a diesel powered Ranger Crew Cab 4x4. I believe it was built in Brazil. Anyway, it got 30+ mpg.
But I'm not interested in what has already been proven time and time again. I want to see a FULL-SIZED pickup that delivers 30 mpg or better, and I don't care if it burns gas, diesel, cow chips, whatever.
I love my truck. It can comfortably haul my family, it carries what I need, it rides and drives better than any truck I've ever owned, insurance is reasonable, I could go on and on. The only complaint I have is that the fuel mileage is not that great - o.k. it's actually awful :sick: . And so far, the EPA estimates on the window sticker have been pretty accurate. I'm getting 14-15 in town and 18-19 on the highway. The best I've gotten was 21.1 on the interstate. In real dollars, if the truck averaged 30 mpg I'd save a minimum of $1200 per year which would be more than enough to pay for my tag and insurance each year.
The sad reality is, however, that by the time such a vehicle hits our shores, I'll probably have paid off my truck or be close enough to paying it off that I won't be able to save enough on fuel to justify making the payments. :mad:
NiCd batteries get torn up on a constant charge state. If allowed to fully discharge the metal is completely dissolved and uniformly distributed and then replates uniformly when recharged. If cycled there develop places where the metal becomes thin and then plates elsewhere. If there is enough buildup it can bridge between the plates and short them out. So NiCds, at least, require occasional full discharge (but no more or the plates start to go.)
This factor is what gives NiCds the unwarranted repututation of memory - it's just the materials in the cell are not evenly distributed due to short discharge-recharge cycles. Also, it's expensive to make a good electrochemical cell and so most manufacturers of cheap goods use cheap batteries, which die easily.
Li-Ion chemistries don't seem so prone to this, but will fail after about 2 years no matter what the usage.
I would assume the cost of batteries over time could be offset somewhat by the simplicity of the system. That is...no starter, no alternator, simplified transmission (one gear at 65 in this model).
Downside is 240 volts is enough to fry someone. Could be potentially dangerous in accidents and at other times.
"It goes from zero to 60 miles an hour in four seconds, “wicked fast,” said the company’s chairman, Martin Eberhard. Because it is an electric, the driver does not have to shift into second gear until the car hits 65, he said."
"In contrast to the EV-1, the Roadster is supposed to go about 250 miles on a single charge. It uses lithium-ion batteries, the kind most commonly found in laptops, and carries about three times the energy the EV-1 did, although the battery pack weighs only about 900 pounds; the original EV-1 battery pack weighed more than 1,100 pounds."
"The car comes with a kit that connects to a 240-volt circuit and charges the batteries from dead to fully charged in three and a half hours. It can also be charged on a normal 110-volt household outlet, but that takes longer. "
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/19/business/19electric.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
The Prius and other Toyota hybrids are about 600 volts. Supposedly they are rendered safe in an accident? Fire departments have special training to handle hybrid crashes.
Adjusting Estimates
In the early 1980s, an EPA study found that drivers were typically achieving lower fuel economy than predicted by EPA laboratory tests. As a result, EPA required the laboratory-derived city and highway MPG estimates posted on the labels of new vehicles to be adjusted downward by 10% for city estimates and by 22% for highway estimates to better reflect the MPG real-world drivers could expect from 1985 forward.
Fuel Economy Test Schedule Characteristics
City - Low speeds in stop-and-go urban traffic
Simulated Distance 11 miles
Time 31 minutes
Average Speed 20 mph
Top Speed 56 mph
Stops 23
Idling 18 % of the time
Engine Temp at Startup Cold
Lab Temperature 68 - 86 degrees F
Vehicle Air conditioning Off
Highway - Free-flow traffic at highway speeds
Simulated Distance 10 miles
Time 12.5 minutes
Average Speed 48 mph
Top Speed 60 mph
Stops None
Idling None
Engine Temp at Startup Warm
Lab Temperature 68 - 86 degrees F
Vehicle Air conditioning Off
So you can see, people, these tests are NOT reflective of "real world in 2006" driving.
And the 23 stops and 18% time idling is why the hybrids get such high City numbers.
It will be VERY INTERESTING to see what changes they make for the 2008 test revisions.