Fuel Economy and Oil Dependency

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Comments

  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    Current gas prices here in U.K. are around the equivalent of $7 per US Gallon, ($9 per Imp Gallon). Of that, approx 70% is various government duty and taxes. We have our own government ripping us off at the pumps, never mind the oil majors.

    On the upside, I do have Exxon-Mobil shares and a TDi motor that runs around 50MPG, (Imp), so not too unhappy. Whenever we visit USA we rent the biggest SUV we can reasonably find just to celebrate how cheap your gas is..................and remind ourselves just how good small European cars really are, by comparison. Sorry, sorry, sorry, couldn't resist. :blush:
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    About 1/3 of our gas price is due to taxes.

    I think alot of people fail to take that into account.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    About 1/3 of our gas price is due to taxes.

    I think alot of people fail to take that into account.


    The federal excise tax on gasoline is only 18.4 cents per gallon. That hasn't changed since 1993. There are also state and local taxes applied but on average in the US we pay around 43 cents per gallon in fuel taxes. Compared to the rest of the world that is extremely cheap. Of course it is less in places like Iran and Venezuela.

    Given that oil is within $3 of its all time high I'm somewhat amazed that gasoline isn't more expensive right now.
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    It depends on the state. A lot of them use a sales tax type percentage. that will signifacantly raise the amount of tax. take the feds for instance. its .18 or so per gallon. If gas is selling for $1, its .18. If its selling for $4, its still .18. Now, if a state has a 10% tax, a $1 gallon of gasonline will cost 1.10, but a $4 gallon of gasoline will cost 4.40. the tax on the same gallon of gas will jump 30 cents.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    As far as I know there aren't any states that impose a 10% sales tax on gasoline because there are no states with a 10% sales tax. Most states apply a per gallon charge. There are some states that have a per gallon charge and an additional sales tax.

    It turns out the 43 cents per gallon national average that I previously posted is outdated. It's now up to 46.9 cents, which is more than 10% but that's not how it's computed.

    fuel taxes by state
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,700
    Thanks for posting the link on taxes state-by-state,tpe.

    That means out of $3.099, 15% of the cost is taxes.

    It also means that I bought gas at $2.253 just before gas went up to $2.633 this afternoon. So that's a 16.9% increase in price today, exclusive of state/federal taxes.

    Prices had drooped over the weekend from $2.999 to 2.75, including taxes, even though no changes had occurred on Wall Street (Markets closed), and the economic situation hadn't changed since it's a Holiday Weekend. So those price decreases didn't occur because of economists at work.

    Why did the prices rise today? Is another hurricane hitting NO?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    It also means that I bought gas at $2.253 just before gas went up to $2.633 this afternoon. So that's a 16.9% increase in price today,

    I think that price volatility is here to stay. Although that does seem pretty extreme. Where I live in Southern Maryland I don't remember ever seeing a one day change any greater than 15 cents.

    So. MD prices are starting to creep up. After hitting a low of $2.54 a couple weeks ago they are now up to 2.63.
  • 1stpik1stpik Member Posts: 495
    The end-user taxes (the ones cited above that WE pay) aren't the only taxes on gasoline. The producers, refiners, transporters and everyone else along the line pay taxes, too. That really means that WE pay those taxes, too, because companies simply pass their taxes on to the consumer in the form of higher prices.

    The government collectively enjoys the highest profit on gasoline of any group in the U.S. When Exxon-Mobil makes a $40 billion profit on its gas, the federal government makes $70 billion on the same gas.

    Think about that the next time you wonder why the price of gas keeps spiraling upward, while our trusty government strictly regulates the retail prices of things like milk. No "free market" excuses for dairy farmers.

    Think about it again when you wonder why our friends in Congress allow owners of 7 mpg Hummers to take $100,000 in accelerated tax depreciation on them, but allow owners of 50 mpg gas-electric hybrid cars only a $2,000 one-time tax credit.

    Think about it yet again when you wonder why Congress hasn't changed the CAFE requirements in more than two decades, and currently proposes to increase them only 20% over the NEXT two decades.

    Then, think about where all that tax money is really going the next time you drive over a bridge and it falls into the river.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    So the producer Exxon-Mobil pays a tax or royalty to the government of wherever the oil is pumped, pays corporate income taxes on the profit, the distributors pay tax on their profit, the gas station pays tax on their profit, and then the consumer pays the Avg $0.43/gal on top of that. The government has their hand - "oh only a few %" they say - at every step of a process , at all levels of government. If you want more examples just pull out a utility bill.

    I remember pulling up Exxon's annual report a few months back, and seeing that they payed several times more in royalties and tax, than they made in profit.
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    and typicaly a good majority of their profits are rolled back into exploration and development of new fields. Unless they've changed course, even with the huge profits they've made the last couple years, they haven't been paying out special dividends or anything.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I spent 37 years working in Alaska, of which the last 25 years was in our largest oil field Prudhoe Bay, AK. It was always easy to tell when oil prices were high. The rig count went up and our work load increased. When they are making money they are spending on getting new wells into production. The last 3 years have seen huge amounts spent opening new fields up there. When oil dropped to around $9 it was like a ghost town. None of the players were spending money. Sure we send a lot of money to other countries. Much of it returns as income taxes and spending. A lot of US citizens work in the oil fields in Saudi, Kuwait, Qatar etc. All the media shows is the opulent lifestyle of a few oil rich dictators.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    even with the huge profits they've made the last couple years, they haven't been paying out special dividends or anything.

    I don't think that Exxon/Mobil has increased their dividend but they have been buying back a large amount of their stock. This drives the price of the stock up and benefits the shareholder similar to having received a higher dividend. Actually I believe there are tax advantages to the shareholder for doing it this way. So if given the choice I'd rather my share price go up $1 than receive an extra $1 dividend.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    does the fact that you've worked 37 years in Alaska have anything at all to do with you picking places like Hawaii and California now to live in?

    That's a whole lot of hypothermia out in that snow and ice man!

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I could be happy never seeing another snowflake. I have seen every shape known to man. I will visit my son that is still up there in the Summer only.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    we're boiling in the desert but these wonderful things like air conditioning in our car and in our workplaces and in our houses makes things much more bearable. The rich plant and flower life of the desert is starting to really appeal to me. Tucson is a city that although large is peppered with some very impressive landscaping and not that much gritty litter. The overpass that is built like a desert snake is kinda cool and there are lots of neato paintings and artwork everywhere. Really kind of a nice large desert city. To visit.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "So, is it gouging, or just what the market will bear?"

    Got a Gasoline Jones
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    What I think happened around Katrina was that the insane over-reaction of commodity traders to seemingly everything, something like this: The sun came up today, therefore it will be hotter than it was last night, more A/C will be used in cars, so demand for unleaded will be up, buy, buy, buy! And commodity prices actually rise because of demand for futures contracts rather than actual demand for the underlying commodity.

    Couldn't agree more. I think they are still riding this wave.

    In terms of the article I think it is gouging, since the fuel prices go up when there's a home game, a big weekend like Labor / Memorial Day, or a holiday. But I feel most don't think it's gouging because "it always happens, it's the norm, so just roll with it" and locally we adjust by buying fuel before the price hike. Or if you're the out-of-towner you remember to get fuel before a certain point so you don't get hit with the higher prices.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think it is just what the market will bear. Look at Las Vegas. Hotel rooms triple in price when something is going on there special. Gouging would be what Starbucks did during the 9/11 attack. They sold bottled water for $5 each to rescue people. If gas stations in New Orleans raised the price to people getting out of town before Katrina, that I would consider gouging.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    In a Socialist environment, "gouging" is frowned upon.

    In a Free market economy, "gouging" is the price paid by the consumer of a product, service, or idea when the competitive market screams to take advantage of a situation.

    Shareholders demand their investments price as high as possible enabling profits, which are subsequently taxed, and that taxing is another form of "gouging".

    The independent business man who works 60 to 75 hours a week and makes close to twice as much as the 40 hour a week wager, pays a whole lot more income tax and that is "gouging", for why should the entrepreneur be penalized for his ambitious work ethic? :confuse: :mad: :sick:
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    may be a little bit of gouging, though I don't know that I'd call 6 cents gouging. Doesn't seem much different than the stations right at the freeway/interstate exits charging a few cents more because of the convience. In the end, you don't have to buy their gas. drive arround a little bit, and farther from the game, and I'm sure you'll find it cheaper.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,531
    Those who benefit the most can pay the most. Deal with it. You have no choice and no recourse.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You are saying the people that are living on welfare should pay the most? They benefit the most for the least amount expended, from my point of view. How does Bill Gates benefit more than the welfare recipient living in government housing on the banks of the Mississippi, spending his day fishing?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,531
    From your point of view, yes. I will leave it at that.

    This is a gas price thread

    On topic, I still support the magic 8 ball or dartboard determining price trends.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That works in the stock market. Should be good for commodities!
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    on Barbwa-waa-waa's nose. Ouch! Evreybody's prime-time queen of the last 50 years has obtained an owee!

    Owwww, we commodity dorks and traders better use our on-the-job training as power brokers and raise the price of ghastly unfairly now, while Bar-bwaa is hurting from her owee. Up the price 40 cents a gallon while we enjoy the confusion on the faces of the 150 million car drivers who must pay these obscene gas prices. Isn't this fun? We can screw the average Joe driver in to paying 4 times what he should have to pay because we're the only ghastly game in town! It's Mad magazine, dudes! Wayne's World and fun dumm dee dumb. Somebody rope some sanity in to these prices. It's the semi-truck driver's fault, huh? Too many of 'em on the road and they are charging too much to deliver our goods. Put our nation's goods back on the rails where they belong! Act now while you can still enjoy driving your cool car!

    And to think, all it takes is Bar-bwaa-waaa-waaa having a dart hit her right upside her nose! What a wonderful nation we're privileged to live in, car nuts! Crack me another Coca-Cola and pop open your own box of Cheezits, it's NFL football season and the finer sport, NBA basketball is starting very soon. ;)

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    Oil prices went above $78/barrel yesterday, an all-time high. The futures price for unleaded gasoline stayed at $1.98/gallon, about 50 cents below where it was Memorial Day when oil was around $66/barrel. There does seem to be a disconnect recently between the price of oil and the price of gasoline. Right now it is working in our favor.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It could be the fact that we are buying a lot of refined gas from the EU. They have a surplus because they sell a lot less gas cars than we do. At the dawn of the automotive age, gas was a waste product in the refinery process. Probably the major reason that gas engines were developed. It will never be as good as diesel because of the lower energy content. We also buy refined gas from Canada. The OPEC basket price is $73.13 as of yesterday. All oil is not created equal.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,531
    I've noticed that. Oil is high, gas has risen maybe 10 cents in the past 6 weeks. Yet other times, oil will rise a little and gas will rise 30 cents. I don't think we had any real Labor Day spike here.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,700
    We did. And the average area prices in the chart don't show the radical swings for the bottom two quartiles of stations the way it should.

    image

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    If you had the wholesale price receipt charts for the Dayton stations, you would see a similar line.

    They charge retail prices for gasoline based on what they pay for it at the wholesale level.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,700
    > the wholesale price receipt charts for the Dayton stations

    Show me.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    you know that's not possible.

    Gouging is illegal and in most states the fines are very large. None of the stations (and especially the smaller independent shops) wants to risk a few thousand dollars extra profit in light of a huge, multi-thousand dollar fine if caught.

    Seems like everyone in Ohio was colluding this last month:

    image

    OMG !!! They even have INDIANAPOLIS in on the conspiracy:

    image

    See the trend?

    It's because they all buy from the same regional network of wholesalers and the wholesale prices were WHAT THE RETAIL PRICES WERE BASED UPON, like they are every day of the year.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    I don't think that OPEC's basket price includes delivery, which can be around $5/barrel if its heading to the US.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,700
    >See the trend?

    It's because they all buy from the same regional network of wholesalers and the wholesale prices were WHAT THE RETAIL PRICES WERE BASED UPON, like they are every day of the year.
    *************

    Yup. That's what I was talking about. The manipulation of the gas price. Notice Pittsburg is along the same pipeline along with Chicago and I'd assume St. Louis. I'm sure you have all the data about the pipelines and wholesalers so you can explain why these metro areas DON'T have the wide swings in gas price.
    image

    >you know that's not possible.

    Gouging is illegal and in most states the fines are very large. None of the stations (and especially the smaller independent shops) wants to risk a few thousand dollars extra profit in light of a huge, multi-thousand dollar fine if caught. :P

    >Seems like everyone in Ohio was colluding this last month:

    And seems like St. Louis, Chicago, Pittsburg aren't colluding. Hehe. :blush:

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    I guess I'm somewhat confused. If we (Chi-town, and Illinois in general) are along the same pipeline if you will, why are we tracing consistently 30 ~ 50 cents higher than Pitt & STL? And with the articles I've read about the $80/barrel oil and the Toledo facility shutting down in segments for 8-weeks of maintenance (also to switch over to vinter blend), what the cuff is a person to do, to believe?

    Not pulling the"c"-card, but I still say something is rotten, because as many pointed out, the excuses, er I mean "reasoning", behind these high prices constantly change, darn near daily now. You don't know what to believe.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    You don't know what to believe.

    Well if the price of oil is the underlying factor that drives gasoline prices then you can expect to start paying more for gas. Oil prices have hit a historic high.

    I'm sure this will be a point of resentment but the fact that I only use about 400 gallons of gasoline a year I'm not all that concerned about whether the price is $2/gallon or $5/gallon. However I do find the dynamics of the current market to be fascinating. It will be interesting to see what happens in the next few months.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I used about 300 gallons on my Outback in '06 and used 350 gallons on the minivan. If gas popped to $5, I'd be out of pocket over $1,000 a year in gas, figuring gas around $2.80 currently.

    A thousand here and a thousand there, and pretty soon you're talking about real money (link).
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,700
    You're welcome to check Daytongasprices.com and note the variation between a northern region with many stations at $2.55 as an average price while higher stations are $2.95 ($.40) and $2.89 ($.34) higher. Then they all will bump up to $2.99 or $2.95 by Thursday afternoon. If they don't bump up as high over this weekend for the Thursday paychex fillups, they will almost all rise on Tuesday.

    Please tell me this predicatable pattern is "market forces" and "economics" of supply and demand. The fuel is sitting in tanks currently along Brandt Pike and other areas. Same fuel.

    As for pricing in other areas, I assume there are differences in taxes and I recall Chicago has an area gas tax of its own.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    Oil is at a historic high and the gas prices in York, PA are still $2.65 to $2.69. Gas futures were at $1.95 a couple of days ago. OPEC agreed to increase oil production yet oil keeps climbing higher. It seems the investors are trying their best to push oil higher. Fascinating is not the word I would use to describe the current market.
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    Where I used to work we had the Wednesday ~ Thursday blip for the upcoming weekend, then prices settle down Sunday to Tuesday ~ Wednesday.

    I try to check and keep up with the variations but it's just frustrating when the "reasoning" flies fancy free.

    Yes, we have "special" taxes for everything. I'm just waiting for the Mayor Daley "move the graves from St. Johns cemetery so I can expand O'Hare airport" tax.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    The fuel is sitting in tanks currently along Brandt Pike and other areas. Same fuel.

    You could pose the same question regarding when the prices go down, it's the same fuel, how could it get cheaper? The answer is that gas stations charge based upon replacement cost, which is constantly changing.
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    Keep in mind though, those oil tradders can loose millions of dollars as easily as they can make millions. Its all speculation. They're betting on the price down the road. As I mentioned before, the thing thats keeps the comodities markets honest is the fact that the product has to change hands. when that future contract comes due, they either have to take delivery of the oil, or sold their contract to somebody. they can't back out or change their mind. If for example exxon doesn't need the oil bad enough, they won't pay 80 a barrel for it. If demand has slacked, and they're inventories are in faily good shape, they'll buy as little as they have to untill the price comes down. and the people who own the contracts have to drop the price, as they have no where to put the oil. Its the exact same thing that pushed oil so low in the 90's. there just wasn't anybody willing to buy it untill the price went lower, and lower, and lower; till if finnally bottom'd out at $9 a barrel.

    And keep in mind, exxon owns very little of the oil it pumps out of the ground. most countries have nationalized their oil industries and simply pay exxon and other to develop the fields.
  • sandman46sandman46 Member Posts: 1,798
    Gas prices per barrel were at $79.10 at Fridays close but think I read that OPEC will up their capacity by 500,000 barrels /day very soon so hopefully this will drive the price down a bit. Funny but I thought I had also heard that supplies around the world were at normal levels and not below as some had said earlier. CNBC is a great station to watch as they keep a close eye on this situation.
    This whole situation seems to be a bit confusing as the price at the pumps seem to rise very quickly as the world situations change yet the gasoline in the ground and it's pricing is based on oil at the lower price/barrel of weeks beforehand. Just seems like the price should go up only when the more expensive oil has finally gotten to the tanks and not to be reflected in what's already in them from an earlier date and price position.
    A big reason why I think eventually the U S will have to get more involved in the Middle East to keep the world economy stable and the flow of petrol coming at a steady stream. We cannot sit on the sidelines why some crazy fanatics try to sabotage the world economy. Just a personal opinion though based on nothing except gut feeling. We will have a strong, if not stronger presence in the Middle East for many years to come. The world economy depends on this U S presence!

    The Sandman :mad:
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    anoather thing to keep in mind is that winter is commming. heating oil is primarily whats driving up oil prices. inventories are low, and heating oil futures are up almost 15%, and probly are matching the rise in crude........if not exceding it. thats why gasoline futures are just a hair over 1% up.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,700
    A radio talk jock used the excuse for gas pricing variability (must have gotten it in the daily fax of possible talk show topics) that the station has to charge what it will cost to have new fuel replace what was in the tank. In that case the first underground tank fill should have been free then if they're always charging based on what it will cost for the next delivery.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I asked a Costco manager one time why their gas was higher priced than ARCO. Costco prides itself on being the lowest price in any given area. His response, unlike most gas stations, Costco bases the price on what is in their tanks rather than current market price. So they will stay lower when prices go up and stay higher when prices fall. Though they seem to fill almost every day.
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    That could be true, but it does depend on a few things. If the oil comapany owns the station, they're just going to use regional pricing. if the station is independantly owned, but leases the pumps, they'll likewise have to charge what the oil comapany tells them too. If they own the station and pumps, then they can charge whatever they want. However, they have to charge enough to be able to pay their next fuel bill, which could be in excess of 80k. so yes, the small independant guy will have to raise his price to cover the next delivery.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    when you're out of it or you get reimbursed for it, that's for sure. My wife and I have a house we sold(the deal closes tomorrow)in South Dakota. We get most of last month's rent back from a renter that is already renting the house and we get a refund for the heating oil left in the oil tank downstairs. The renter had to pay to have the tank filled.

    IIRC heating oil was more per gallon than car fuel and it holds a couple hundred gallons. It does provide a nice full bodied warmth in South Dakota's cold bitter winters, though.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    Let's say I'm a station owner and buy my gas on Tuesday at a price that requires me to sell it at $2.70/gallon in order to make a reasonable profit. Now on Wednesday the station across the street is able to buy his gasoline for 10 cents per gallon cheaper and prices it at $2.60/gallon. What am I supposed to do? The gas in my tanks didn't get any cheaper yet I'm not going to sell it if the competitor across the street is offering it at 10 cents less. So I've got to suck it up and reduce my price by 10 cents. It only makes sense that I should be able to apply this rational when prices are rising. It's interesting that the whiners only question price increases. Price decreases don't need to follow any logical pattern.
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