Why both rear wheels? Isn't there an open rear diff? The power will still take the path of least resistance, and might leak to one wheel on the rear axle, at least until VSC kicks in.
Any how, VSC can effectively manage both axles, so 2 wheels slipping isn't going to happen. Actually it might for a short period of time, but it would cycle as the brakes kick in to stop wheelspin.
Now hold on a minute -- I stand by my statement that the CR-V cannot possibly drive both wheels on the same axle simultaneosly without some sort of slip. The slip either comes from some sort of traction management system (alternating between wheels -- so not really simultaneous), a differential, actual wheel slippage, or some combination of the three. If both wheels are being driven simultaneously in any other scenario, the vehicle will bind up in turns. That's what I am talking about. There is no way around this fundamental physical issue.
I agree with Juice's earlier statement regarding traction control -- it can clamp down on a spinning wheel to effectively squirt power to the other wheel. That is fine. But without some sort of slip somewhere, in the diff or between the tires and the road, you cannot drive both wheels simultaneously because the system will bind in turns. That is why almost all vehicles only drive a single wheel on each powered axle at any given instant in time. You can't drive both simultaneously and still turn on dry pavement.
You have to lock a diff to drive multiple wheels, and we all know how that works. That is true 4WD. It's for slippery surfaces only.
You expressed your opinion about Subaru vs. Honda (with extreme hyperbole thrown in). I gave my experience.
A well equipt Subaru Legacy is actually LESS than a comparably equipt Honda CRV (sic).Check Edmunds on that price.
Not sure where you (or Edmunds if they are reporting this) get your numbers. The lowest priced Legacy (not even the same class of vehicle as a CR-V) starts at $20,795.
The Forester (which IS in the same class as the CR-V) starts at $21,195. And until they finally do a redesign and give it a wheelbase above 100" I wouldn't even consider it, and certainly not at that price.
If you put the 6 cyl 3L engine and the Eddy Bauer option and all the options you can get a Legacy for $35,000. But Oh, is it 10 times better than ANY CRV (sic)!
I used the Legacy GT spec. B as an example of how high priced a Subaru can get. It has a 2.5L engine. Not sure where you are getting your information.
Also, don't forget, the repair costs for a CRV (sic) are about 3 times what the same repairs are for a Sub.
AFAIK repair costs are dealer specific. Even if a Honda dealer charges more than the neighboring Subaru dealer (not typical as competition drives pricing) for the same repair, it's not going to be 3 times more. You seem to be prone to extreme exaggeration.
Not that either would need much repairing.
Agree with you on this. Both Subaru and Honda produce very reliable vehicles. Subarus just cost a bit more.
Regarding the Legacy, as mentioned it is not the same class of vehicle as the CR-V. Try to stick to apples to apples when doing comparisions.
But following your lead, the lowest priced Legacy is higher priced than the lowest priced CR-V. The Legacy gives you AWD where that model of CR-V would not (but it would have more standard equipment), but all Subarus have standard AWD. And you pay for it.
Has anyone priced the cost of CR-V replacement keys? My local dealer wants $65 for the key with remote and $25 for the valet version. Plus, add $50 to either version to reprogram all keys.
"...in the diff or between the tires and the road, you cannot drive both wheels simultaneously because the system will bind in turns. That is why almost all vehicles only drive a single wheel on each powered axle at any given instant in time. You can't drive both simultaneously and still turn on dry pavement."
How does Subaru handle sending power to the non slipping wheels, without causing a BIND and/or steering problems?
How does it tell the difference between a front tire slipping or just turning faster due to a sharp turn?
Has anyone priced the cost of CR-V replacement keys? My local dealer wants $65 for the key with remote and $25 for the valet version. Plus, add $50 to either version to reprogram all keys.
Just have the dealer cut the key and program it your self.
I need to refine my earlier remarks because I think they could be misleading. I definitely could have stated it better.
With a normal differential, power goes to both wheels on an axle and they are both driven. In a turn however, the differential allows a rotational difference between the wheels to exist while still supplying power. In turns, it can behave like one-wheel drive because one wheel rotates more than the other and this "sets the pace" for the distribution of torque. If there is enough traction, that one wheel does more of the driving for a while. The amount of one-wheel-drive behavior is inversely proportional to the radius of the turn. In the lower limit, where you're just pivoting about the inside wheel, the outside wheel is doing all the work. The other limit is when the turn radius becomes infinite -- ie, the vehicle is going in a straight line -- and both wheels turn the same and power the vehicle equally. (I hope this makes sense!) It varies between 1 and 2 wheel drive all the time -- closer to 1 in tight turns, and closer to 2 when going straight. I have heard the Car-talk guys talk about 1.5 wheel drive and that's what they are getting at through humor.
Unfortunately, this same differential action that allows rotational differences in turns can lead to problems when one wheel loses traction. In those cases, the differential will still supply power to both wheels, but the spinning wheel sets the amount of torque delivered (which is very low because there's no resistance). You would have one spinning wheel with no traction, and one stationary wheel with traction but not enough torque to do anything. Both wheels are still driven the same way, but the differential action is basically letting the slipping wheel set the pace. It would be analogous to the pivot situation I described above, with the spinning wheel akin to the outer wheel. Unfortunately it has no traction so you don't go anywhere. The diff thinks it's in a real tight turn and all the rotation goes to one wheel, which can't use it!
A limited-slip differential will alleviate this problem. It behaves like a traditional differential and allows rotational difference between each wheel for turns. There is a certain amount of "overspeed" of one wheel allowed before it would be considered wheelspin. Small differences are ignored (turning) but larger differences (spinning wheel) cause power to shift to the opposite wheel. This is either done with electronics and ABS or mechanically, with some sort of gear or viscous arrangement.
For instance, my 05 Outback XT uses a limited slip rear diff with a viscous coupling. Under nominal conditions, it behaves like a regular diff. If one wheel slips or loses contact with the ground, it will begin to spin faster. Action within the differential thickens the viscous fluid which then transfers power from the spinning wheel back to the opposite wheel. During this action, both wheels can receive power -- it's like a "soft" locking differential, which locks and unlocks on-demand. In reality, it is transferring the traction from one wheel to the other.
Other Subarus with VDC will use the brakes to clamp down on a spinning wheel, which lets the other wheel set the pace and keep torque up (I believe the CR-V does this too). However, this only makes 50% of the torque to that axle available to the other wheel. The limited slip system I discussed above will use 100% of the torque over both wheels.
Now, back to the original point -- where Subaru would potentially have an advantage over the CR-V is avoiding wheel slip in the first place, because they are nominally driving two axles (front and rear) versus the CR-V's single axle (front). A Subaru would vary between 2 and 4 wheel drive all the time, while the CR-V would vary between 1 and 2 wheel drive all the time, and 2 and 4 wheel drive when there is slippage. Subaru also proactively transfers power fore/aft in certain situations to further avoid wheelspin (as does the SH-AWD in use by Acura). You can see this difference in some of the Subaru sales videos where Outbacks and Foresters climb a hill like it's no big deal, but the CR-V starts slipping the fronts right away and never recovers, even when the rears eventually kick in.
I don't mean this to imply Subaru is generally better than Honda with AWD, because Honda has other systems that are more advanced than what's in the CR-V. The is more a point that the CR-V's system is quite basic compared to the best of what Honda, Subaru, and other manufacturers offer.
I hope that makes sense, and sorry for the long post.
Driver62, Gee, not 3 times more expensive?? I can get a Subaru key at the dealer for $35$. Hmmmm. Isn't $140.00 more than three times as much as $35? Or do you believe in the new "Honda" math?
Driver62, let me end my part of this discussion by stating, I have owned both an CRV and a Subaru Legacy. There is NO comparison at all. The Subaru IS 10 times the car the CRV is. NO matter what the price is, I would take a Subaru over a CRV anyday. Just my thoughts. I have sent 4 kids to college, they all chose my Subaru over my CRV to steal for college. That is why I have had 5 subarus. None have worn out. They just get taken to college by my kids. The CRV had to be sold at 40% below book to get rid of it. AND it was in perfect shape. Out here is the Northwest the Subaru is a Much better choice than the CRV. As price shows. Used Subarus sell for Book or more and the CRV's sell for an average of %40 below book.
I have children and a wife who drive. I don't want to ever find them DEAD, FROZEN to death, because their CRV got stuck in 4" snow. I would rather they get home in a Subaru! Enought said.
I think Craig more or less corrected himself, but just to be clear...
An open diff powers both wheels under normal circumstances. As described in Craig's third post, the power distribution may not be equal while cornering, but there is a big difference between no power and less than full power.
With RT4WD... when power is routed from the front to the rear, the rear still acts like an open diff (powering two wheels).
This is true UNTIL THERE IS SLIPPAGE for one or both of the wheels receiving power from the diff.
Because Craig wrote "at best" his reply is incorrect. He is assuming slippage. That is actually the "at worst" scenario.
Juice also makes this assumption in his reply.
"The power will still take the path of least resistance, and might leak to one wheel on the rear axle, at least until VSC kicks in."
The keyword here is "might". He is describing the same situation. Power MIGHT leak to a single rear wheel IF there is slippage.
The spec.B, again, is a very limited edition Legacy, a special car with some very exclusive equipment and a the price that you would expect from the content.
GPS NAV, 18" alloys with summer high performance tires, a 6 speed manual trans, a Torsen rear diff, VTD AWD, VDC stability control, two-tone heated leather seats, moonroof, 6CD changer, all those things are standard.
You can compare it to a TL A-spec, basically, minus the FWD. It is a very unique car and not in any way comparable to a CR-V, they have nothing at all in common. May as well compare an S2000 to a Tribeca.
I have no idea why Consumer Reports chose to test the least common edition of the least common body style of the least common model in the Legacy/Outback lineup.
2.5i is most common, followed by GT, followed by GT Ltd, spec.B being the rarest. Wagons are far more common than sedans. And Outbacks are far more common than Legacys.
Road & Track took a spec.B to a race tack and it outran a BMW, an Audi, an Infiniti, and everybody else for that matter. Only the slower MazdaSpeed6 cost less. I seriously doubt a CR-V could keep up.
I doubt clarkkent is talking about an immobilizer key (in which case $35 for a regular key sounds too expensive). I have been told the immobilizer key in my Outback is more expensive than normal keys, so it's not something you want to lose. Add the remote built into the key, and I am sure it can get up to $65 easy.
An extra immobilizer key for my Nissan was about $35 (no integrated remote), plus 1/2 hour labor to reprogram the computer, so that sounds about right, not counting the labor. A spare remote was about $15 on eBay--probably much more at the dealer, but on that car you could program the remote without a dealer visit.
$65 plus a programming charge sounds reasonable for an integrated key/remote.
I'm not sure how Honda's maintenance costs are three times Subaru's either. I'd say their reliability is about the same. Some dealers (Honda and Subaru both) try to sell unneeded 15/30/60/90k service packages that are in excess of what the manufacturer recommends. If you stick to the maintenance book, neither Honda nor Subaru should be expensive to service.
I just don't buy that 'reliability' argument anymore...
I've owned several Jeep, Dodge and Chrysler products over several years now and never had any major reliability issues...I view the domestic brands just as reliable as the foreign brands...based on my own experience...although I have to say, I buy all of my vehicles new and take care of them as per maintenance/service requirements, and I don't run them into the ground either...perhaps that makes a difference...
I think the reliability argument was true several years ago for older products but is no longer valid...
BTW, the all new 2008 VW Tiguan (compact SUV) due out next year looks pretty sweet...and has fold flat rear seats and a diesel engine option and a 4WD option....I will definitely keep this one on the list of test drives...
The remote is the issue here. It's more expensive than just a key. You are correct.
If you stick to the maintenance book, neither Honda nor Subaru should be expensive to service. My Accord has a maintenance minder system (that the CR-V, Civic, Odyssey, Pilot, etc... all have also) that tells you when your car needs servicing based on how many revolutions the engine has turned since the last oil change. For me, I have been 5,100 miles since my last oil change, and my oil life monitor shows 40% remaining. I was afraid to go this long the first couple of times, but my new-car ownership jitters are over and I'm going by this minder now. Looks like I'll get about 8,000 miles on this oil. (BTW, the vehicles with the 2.4L in the CR-V BEFORE the minder debuted called for an oil change at 5,000 or 10,000 miles, depending on whether you drive in "severe" or "normal" conditions).
My oil changes cost under $24 (a quickie lube will do it for under $20). Now my dealer offers free maintenance for 3 years/36k miles (which my dad gets to utilize on his new Civic).
What I meant to say was, if you follow what the manufacturer recommends, which in Honda's case is to follow the maintenance minder, and in Subaru's case indicates a service every 7500 miles for normal conditions.
From what I can discern, the maintenance minders out there in the field are calling for services at similar intervals compared to when they just printed a book. Oil change and tire rotation every 5-10,000, VTM fluid every 15k, air filter every 30k, etc... But, I like the idea of having the service intervals automatically determined by the car's actual operating conditions instead of by a book.
Well, if you go by the "book," it appears that the Honda needs oil changes less than the Subie (the same engine is in the CR-V that required 10k mile oil changes for normal conditions on 2006 models).
We have a Acura and a Subaru that I can compare. In 30K miles, the Subaru has gotten four oil+filter changes. The Acura has gotten two oil-only changes (10K, 30K) and one oil+filter change. So, the Acura has been cheaper thus far for the routine stuff (and you can extrapolate that to higher mileage). Although, I do the work myself and the Subaru is a lot easier to work on, so I have probably expended less time on that vehicle. In all other respects, the maintenance is similar between the two vehicles. And in both cases, the dealer will definitely rip you off with their major service packages. What they charge $300-500 for costs $50-60 when I do only the required stuff at home.
...The CRV had to be sold at 40% below book to get rid of it. AND it was in perfect shape. Out here is the Northwest the Subaru is a Much better choice than the CRV. As price shows. Used Subarus sell for Book or more and the CRV's sell for an average of %40 below book.
I have children and a wife who drive. I don't want to ever find them DEAD, FROZEN to death, because their CRV got stuck in 4" snow. I would rather they get home in a Subaru!...
No flame and no disrespect intended.
I'm trying to figure out why you are on a CR-V Forum since you obviously have such a high disregard for them.
With 5 Subarus and no CR-Vs, wouldn't you be better served, happier, on a Subaru forum. Or at least on a CR-V vs Subaru forum :confuse:
I can get a Subaru key at the dealer for $35$. Hmmmm. Isn't $140.00 more than three times as much as $35? Or do you believe in the new "Honda" math?
The best you could do to back up your ridiculous hyperbole related to repair costs is to use the price of a replacement key as an example. LOL.
I don't want to ever find them DEAD, FROZEN to death, because their CRV (sic) got stuck in 4" snow.
The CR-V will NOT get stuck in 4" of snow. Unless it is driven by an incompetent driver, your family does know how to drive, don't they?
Out here is the Northwest the Subaru is a Much better choice than the CRV (sic).
Yes I know the Pacific Northwest is one of the prime markets for Subaru (along with the, shall we say, the Martina Navratilova crowd in New England). I saw a lot of Subarus during my Washington state vacation in September.
Just in case you were not aware, for 30 years one of Honda's main points of entry has been Seattle, and based on my observations during my trip, Honda sells quite a few vehicles in the Northwest.
The CRV (sic) had to be sold at 40% below book to get rid of it. AND it was in perfect shape.
As for your resale value stats, I ain't buying them. Honda consistently is at or near the top for resale value.
So true I live in Eastern Washington State (17 yrs) and grew up in Oregon (35 years). I can tell you that as popular Subaru is in the Northwest the Honda is ahead in both departments of resale and choice. I own both a CRV 06 and a Forester 04 they both have there place but I belive in my own opion they are very different. They both are VERY good choices and if someone wants to bash either they dont have a clue or are very confused.
The CRV (sic) had to be sold at 40% below book to get rid of it. AND it was in perfect shape.
As for your resale value stats, I ain't buying them. Honda consistently is at or near the top for resale value.
I agree! Drive62. I'm not buying them either.
Book value are a summary/average for what something has been selling for, recently. These values are updated at least monthly. In the case of Kelly Blue Book they even ask your zip code to really be accurate for vehicles sales in that area. There are different "Book" values for Trade In, Private Sale, and Dealer sale.
As example: If the "BOOK" is say $10K, a car would have to be in pretty bad condition to only bring $6K (40% under book).
A "Perfect Condition" car is going to sell/bring at near or slightly above book. The junkers or poor condition cars will sell at less than Book.
In the South East the CR-V has about the highest percentage of resale value of any car. This may not necessarily hold true in other areas of the country.
The nearest of the 2-3 Subaru Dealers in Atlanta area is nearly an hour from me. There are 4 of the 10+ Honda dealers within 20 minutes. CR-Vs are everywhere.
This is not to say that Honda is better or Subaru is better. Honda's sell much better here!
Hondas are definitely more prolific than Subarus, which has pluses and minuses for resale value. I have always gotten good resale on both brands. However, I have found that certain Subarus are sought after because they are harder to find -- so if you are a seller, you can make out well. Hondas enjoy a generally stellar reputation as used cars, but I am not aware of the same "sought after" status that some used Subarus get. I think Honda's much higher sales volume and lease deals make more low mileage used Hondas available, so the demand is different.
I just don't buy that 'reliability' argument anymore...
I do...and I don't.
I do because the last two rental cars I've had (Chevy, Ford) have had their air bag lights on. I have a Taurus right now, with 8000 miles on it, and the light is on plus the transmission makes clunky shifts. The steering doesn't feel quite right, it's loosey goosey.
My '93 Miata is in the body shop and I can't wait to get it back, I swear it has held up better in 13 years than this Taurus has in 8000 miles.
But I agree that on average the gap has narrowed enough that the difference is small, and so reliability matters much less than it used to.
Ford just announced they are hiring temps to build the Lincoln Town Car because more people resigned than they had expected. You want to buy one of those Town Cars?
Ford just announced they are hiring temps to build the Lincoln Town Car because more people resigned than they had expected. You want to buy one of those Town Cars?
juice - gimme a source. I know that Ford got more buyout requests than they expected but it isn't like they left already.
If Ford hired temps, I don't they called Manpower. I'm sure that since they are still working under UAW rules, they recalled layed off workers temporarily.
Honda (with Acura) recently won the top slot in a study regarding resale. The study found that they retain an average of 56% of their value over a 5 year period. (Others near the top included VW, BMW, Rover, and Porsche. The press release did not list Subaru's placement.)
Honda won three of the top slots by category and also two of the top 10 best cars regardless of category. None of those were the CR-V (The MDX won the only SUV category), so only the above 56% average applies to this discussion. There were no Subaru's on either list.
As another measure of value, Honda (Acura rated separately) won the overall best brand for residuals. Subaru was ranked 3rd.
In the individual category rankings, Honda took the Minivan segment. (The Wrangler took compact SUV.) Despite having a good overall score, Subaru did not land any specific vehicle at the top of a class.
While I can understand regional differences presenting a problem for a specific brand, no one should make blanket statements about resale without considering information like that.
"Ford will hire temporary workers at lower wages to pick up the slack at many plants, but most of those will have never built a transmission or operated a stamping press. The company also plans to transfer workers from former Visteon Corp. parts plants to make up for gaps on its assembly lines, but most of them have never assembled a car or truck."http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061130/AUTO01/611300389/1148- /AUTO01
I don't know where you are but I had a 2001 CRV that booked at 13,800 and I was happy to get 10K. It took 8 weeks to sell it.
I also checked with others who were selling CRV in our local paper. We all started at book and we all ended up 6 to 8 weeks later selling them for 30 t0 40% UNDER book.
You may be in an area where the AWD system doesn't have to be good, and is not ever life saving. Out here it's no joke if you get stuck in snow in a storm because your AWD is not good enough or you don't have enough power to get you home.
All I'm saying is that in my area of the country (Northwest), the Subaru is a much better choice for a real AWD car.
If you live where I do, you ARE betting you life on your AWD system. I always want the best hand I can get. I think Subaru is that.
Used Subarus sell for Book or more and the CRV's sell for an average of %40 below book.
Just trying to keep the BS to a minimum.
Let's practice what we preach, then, shall we?
YOU sold your CR-V for 28% under blue book value. Sorry. That doesn't mean that the "Average" sale price of CR-Vs is "40 % below blue book." Wild accusations are pointless, and don't help a poster's credibility.
I have been driving around in the snow for the past two weeks in our Subaru and CR-V in the city and over MT passes and I have felt very safe in both. If we listen to some of this nonsense we all better sell our cars and trucks and were a helmet while driving. Remember in BOTH AWD systems they wont stop you any faster only a good safe and smart driver and good tires will. .
It's in the eye of the beholder isn't it? You say 28% and I say 38% (rounded to 40%) As I said, I was GLAD to get 10K as I had many offers of 7.5K, 6.5k and 9k, all of which I didn't take. I felt I had better take the 10K. To me it was 3,800 less and I took that from my 10K to get my 38.
It is in the eye of the beholder. But, be that as it may, it is sure not anywhere near book. Most Subaru in this are sell for book or more and you don't have to wait 6 to 8 weeks to sell them. In fact there are 3 guys here in this area that do nothing but go to Calif. and Denver to get lease returned Subarus. They make a good living bringing them back and selling them in front of their houses. (They are dealers and do have dealer licenses, but don't need a lot. I have never seen any of them touch a Honda CRV. I asked one about the CRV and why he didn't ever sell them. He just said the Subarus are so good for this area he just sells them. He did know a guy who brought up a few CRV and had to keept them (in front of the house too long.) No mention of what he got for them.
There are different "Book" values for Trade In, Private Sale, and Dealer sale.
Kelley has different books too, so the prices in the dealer book may be different than the consumer number (and those are asking prices, unlike Edmunds TMV numbers, which are based on real sales).
Another good way to predict value over the years is to look at Edmunds True Cost to Own tool. TCO
As I said, I was GLAD to get 10K as I had many offers of 7.5K, 6.5k and 9k, all of which I didn't take. I felt I had better take the 10K. To me it was 3,800 less and I took that from my 10K to get my 38.
I say there has to be a story behind why your vehicle sold for so much back of book. Was there damage, were there high miles, previous accident? C'mon - fess up.
I don't know where you are but I had a 2001 CRV that booked at 13,800 and I was happy to get 10K. It took 8 weeks to sell it.
I also checked with others who were selling CRV in our local paper. We all started at book and we all ended up 6 to 8 weeks later selling them for 30 t0 40% UNDER book.
You may be in an area where the AWD system doesn't have to be good, and is not ever life saving.
I don't know what "BOOK" you were looking at to try and sell your Car.
As stated earlier, any Book price is the average of sales for that particular vehicle. That also depends on who is selling the vehicle. If you are trying to sell a vehicle for the price a dealer is asking, you probably are going to fall short.
Considering a Person to Person private sale, which is where you indicate you were, Your "LIKE PERFECT" CR-V should have sold for above Person to person Book value. That Person to Person Book Value is indeed the average. It considers all that model, good and bad, in your area that actually sold.
I can't remember all the PERFECT, LIKE NEW cars I've gone to see that turned out to be much worst than average. :sick:
It doesn't matter what kind of drive a vehicle has or whether it is a life saver. BOOK is BOOK for the particular type of sale for a particular vehicle. If people are not willing to give Book for that vehicle, they must consider it less than average BOOK.
If a CR-V equipped as a Subaru typically sells for less than the Subaru, then the Subaru has better resale. That would reflect in the BOOK! I'm not saying that a CR-V has better % of resale value than a Subaru in your area. I am saying that a Subaru that is "Perfect" will sell at the top of BOOK for that model. So will a CR-V, or even a Caravan.
...In fact there are 3 guys here in this area that do nothing but go to Calif. and Denver to get lease returned Subarus.... They make a good living bringing them back and selling them in front of their houses. ... I asked one about the CRV and why he didn't ever sell them. He just said the Subarus are so good for this area he just sells them. He did know a guy who brought up a few CRV and had to keept them (in front of the house too long.) No mention of what he got for them.
Could be that the CR-V high resale in California made it hard to resell in Your area. And the Subaru lower prices in California made it easier to resale in your area.
You can't look at "BOOK" in one area and expect that to hold true in another.
I don't want to ever find them DEAD, FROZEN to death, because their CRV got stuck in 4" snow. I would rather they get home in a Subaru!..
Well, here in Central New England there are CR-Vs and Subies aplenty and, happily for my family's outlook, the arrival of Spring doesn't coincide with the discovery of the DEAD, FROZEN drivers and passengers of CR-Vs.
You can't get to my house without climbing several steep hills, most of them on curving roads with 4-way stop signs cleverly placed to frustrate the poorly equipped.
I've driven my CR-V up the hills toward home in blizzards in lines made up mostly of AWD Hondas and Subies and Toyotas and, frankly, all the drama I've seen has been provided by the drivers, not the vehicles.
FWIW, if you're looking to sell a CR-V or Subie, you might try Maine. Up there, the Winter vehicle of choice is a 4WD pickup truck with at least two body panels of contrasting color and a dozen empty beer cans in the bed. After that come ancient Hondas and Subies, a representation that shows the ability of both vehicles to handle serious weather and provide long service. Seems to me the choice is mostly personal preference.
Yes you could do that, but it is not just resale value. It is also the reliability and how much in repair costs are you going to have to pay? If you figure those in with the domestics, the Japanese come out on top. That is the premium for a Honda or Toyota. You pay more to get the quality, resale value, and short and long term dependability.
Although, please keep in mind there are still people out there, paying an extra $1,000 or $2,000 will preclude them from buying a car. Some people, the extra $25 a month is a deal breaker...
Now, back in the day, we waited to buy until we could actually afford to buy a car. Cash. Those days are dead and gone forever, except for the lucky 10% of us who can buy whatever.
Yes that is true. In the past that really mattered and I ended up getting a Plymyth...I sure wish I would have saved up for a better down payment, so I didn't end up with that pile.
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Any how, VSC can effectively manage both axles, so 2 wheels slipping isn't going to happen. Actually it might for a short period of time, but it would cycle as the brakes kick in to stop wheelspin.
-juice
I agree with Juice's earlier statement regarding traction control -- it can clamp down on a spinning wheel to effectively squirt power to the other wheel. That is fine. But without some sort of slip somewhere, in the diff or between the tires and the road, you cannot drive both wheels simultaneously because the system will bind in turns. That is why almost all vehicles only drive a single wheel on each powered axle at any given instant in time. You can't drive both simultaneously and still turn on dry pavement.
You have to lock a diff to drive multiple wheels, and we all know how that works. That is true 4WD. It's for slippery surfaces only.
A well equipt Subaru Legacy is actually LESS than a comparably equipt Honda CRV (sic).Check Edmunds on that price.
Not sure where you (or Edmunds if they are reporting this) get your numbers. The lowest priced Legacy (not even the same class of vehicle as a CR-V) starts at $20,795.
The Forester (which IS in the same class as the CR-V) starts at $21,195. And until they finally do a redesign and give it a wheelbase above 100" I wouldn't even consider it, and certainly not at that price.
If you put the 6 cyl 3L engine and the Eddy Bauer option and all the options you can get a Legacy for $35,000. But Oh, is it 10 times better than ANY CRV (sic)!
I used the Legacy GT spec. B as an example of how high priced a Subaru can get. It has a 2.5L engine. Not sure where you are getting your information.
Also, don't forget, the repair costs for a CRV (sic) are about 3 times what the same repairs are for a Sub.
AFAIK repair costs are dealer specific. Even if a Honda dealer charges more than the neighboring Subaru dealer (not typical as competition drives pricing) for the same repair, it's not going to be 3 times more. You seem to be prone to extreme exaggeration.
Not that either would need much repairing.
Agree with you on this. Both Subaru and Honda produce very reliable vehicles. Subarus just cost a bit more.
Regarding the Legacy, as mentioned it is not the same class of vehicle as the CR-V. Try to stick to apples to apples when doing comparisions.
But following your lead, the lowest priced Legacy is higher priced than the lowest priced CR-V. The Legacy gives you AWD where that model of CR-V would not (but it would have more standard equipment), but all Subarus have standard AWD. And you pay for it.
How does Subaru handle sending power to the non slipping wheels, without causing a BIND and/or steering problems?
How does it tell the difference between a front tire slipping or just turning faster due to a sharp turn?
Thanks,
Kip
Just have the dealer cut the key and program it your self.
What a great idea! But how, or where do I get information on how to do it?
The owner's manual has no information on key programming.
Thanks.
IIRC, the dealer has to program the keys using an existing key.
With a normal differential, power goes to both wheels on an axle and they are both driven. In a turn however, the differential allows a rotational difference between the wheels to exist while still supplying power. In turns, it can behave like one-wheel drive because one wheel rotates more than the other and this "sets the pace" for the distribution of torque. If there is enough traction, that one wheel does more of the driving for a while. The amount of one-wheel-drive behavior is inversely proportional to the radius of the turn. In the lower limit, where you're just pivoting about the inside wheel, the outside wheel is doing all the work. The other limit is when the turn radius becomes infinite -- ie, the vehicle is going in a straight line -- and both wheels turn the same and power the vehicle equally. (I hope this makes sense!) It varies between 1 and 2 wheel drive all the time -- closer to 1 in tight turns, and closer to 2 when going straight. I have heard the Car-talk guys talk about 1.5 wheel drive and that's what they are getting at through humor.
Unfortunately, this same differential action that allows rotational differences in turns can lead to problems when one wheel loses traction. In those cases, the differential will still supply power to both wheels, but the spinning wheel sets the amount of torque delivered (which is very low because there's no resistance). You would have one spinning wheel with no traction, and one stationary wheel with traction but not enough torque to do anything. Both wheels are still driven the same way, but the differential action is basically letting the slipping wheel set the pace. It would be analogous to the pivot situation I described above, with the spinning wheel akin to the outer wheel. Unfortunately it has no traction so you don't go anywhere. The diff thinks it's in a real tight turn and all the rotation goes to one wheel, which can't use it!
A limited-slip differential will alleviate this problem. It behaves like a traditional differential and allows rotational difference between each wheel for turns. There is a certain amount of "overspeed" of one wheel allowed before it would be considered wheelspin. Small differences are ignored (turning) but larger differences (spinning wheel) cause power to shift to the opposite wheel. This is either done with electronics and ABS or mechanically, with some sort of gear or viscous arrangement.
For instance, my 05 Outback XT uses a limited slip rear diff with a viscous coupling. Under nominal conditions, it behaves like a regular diff. If one wheel slips or loses contact with the ground, it will begin to spin faster. Action within the differential thickens the viscous fluid which then transfers power from the spinning wheel back to the opposite wheel. During this action, both wheels can receive power -- it's like a "soft" locking differential, which locks and unlocks on-demand. In reality, it is transferring the traction from one wheel to the other.
Other Subarus with VDC will use the brakes to clamp down on a spinning wheel, which lets the other wheel set the pace and keep torque up (I believe the CR-V does this too). However, this only makes 50% of the torque to that axle available to the other wheel. The limited slip system I discussed above will use 100% of the torque over both wheels.
Now, back to the original point -- where Subaru would potentially have an advantage over the CR-V is avoiding wheel slip in the first place, because they are nominally driving two axles (front and rear) versus the CR-V's single axle (front). A Subaru would vary between 2 and 4 wheel drive all the time, while the CR-V would vary between 1 and 2 wheel drive all the time, and 2 and 4 wheel drive when there is slippage. Subaru also proactively transfers power fore/aft in certain situations to further avoid wheelspin (as does the SH-AWD in use by Acura). You can see this difference in some of the Subaru sales videos where Outbacks and Foresters climb a hill like it's no big deal, but the CR-V starts slipping the fronts right away and never recovers, even when the rears eventually kick in.
I don't mean this to imply Subaru is generally better than Honda with AWD, because Honda has other systems that are more advanced than what's in the CR-V. The is more a point that the CR-V's system is quite basic compared to the best of what Honda, Subaru, and other manufacturers offer.
I hope that makes sense, and sorry for the long post.
Driver62, let me end my part of this discussion by stating, I have owned both an CRV and a Subaru Legacy. There is NO comparison at all. The Subaru IS 10 times the car the CRV is. NO matter what the price is, I would take a Subaru over a CRV anyday. Just my thoughts. I have sent 4 kids to college, they all chose my Subaru over my CRV to steal for college. That is why I have had 5 subarus. None have worn out. They just get taken to college by my kids. The CRV had to be sold at 40% below book to get rid of it. AND it was in perfect shape. Out here is the Northwest the Subaru is a Much better choice than the CRV. As price shows. Used Subarus sell for Book or more and the CRV's sell for an average of %40 below book.
I have children and a wife who drive. I don't want to ever find them DEAD, FROZEN to death, because their CRV got stuck in 4" snow. I would rather they get home in a Subaru! Enought said.
An open diff powers both wheels under normal circumstances. As described in Craig's third post, the power distribution may not be equal while cornering, but there is a big difference between no power and less than full power.
With RT4WD... when power is routed from the front to the rear, the rear still acts like an open diff (powering two wheels).
This is true UNTIL THERE IS SLIPPAGE for one or both of the wheels receiving power from the diff.
Because Craig wrote "at best" his reply is incorrect. He is assuming slippage. That is actually the "at worst" scenario.
Juice also makes this assumption in his reply.
"The power will still take the path of least resistance, and might leak to one wheel on the rear axle, at least until VSC kicks in."
The keyword here is "might". He is describing the same situation. Power MIGHT leak to a single rear wheel IF there is slippage.
Do the 07 CR-Vs have any type of "BRAKE" related traction control for each wheel?
Kip
At least until Hondabro2000 shows up.
The spec.B, again, is a very limited edition Legacy, a special car with some very exclusive equipment and a the price that you would expect from the content.
GPS NAV, 18" alloys with summer high performance tires, a 6 speed manual trans, a Torsen rear diff, VTD AWD, VDC stability control, two-tone heated leather seats, moonroof, 6CD changer, all those things are standard.
You can compare it to a TL A-spec, basically, minus the FWD. It is a very unique car and not in any way comparable to a CR-V, they have nothing at all in common. May as well compare an S2000 to a Tribeca.
I have no idea why Consumer Reports chose to test the least common edition of the least common body style of the least common model in the Legacy/Outback lineup.
2.5i is most common, followed by GT, followed by GT Ltd, spec.B being the rarest. Wagons are far more common than sedans. And Outbacks are far more common than Legacys.
Road & Track took a spec.B to a race tack and it outran a BMW, an Audi, an Infiniti, and everybody else for that matter. Only the slower MazdaSpeed6 cost less. I seriously doubt a CR-V could keep up.
-juice
Is this an immobilizer key with a built-in remote like Honda's, and does that include programming the car to recognize the new key?
Replace the Subaru's key-fob (remote-entry) and key, and tell me how much they want for it.
$65 plus a programming charge sounds reasonable for an integrated key/remote.
I'm not sure how Honda's maintenance costs are three times Subaru's either. I'd say their reliability is about the same. Some dealers (Honda and Subaru both) try to sell unneeded 15/30/60/90k service packages that are in excess of what the manufacturer recommends. If you stick to the maintenance book, neither Honda nor Subaru should be expensive to service.
I've owned several Jeep, Dodge and Chrysler products over several years now and never had any major reliability issues...I view the domestic brands just as reliable as the foreign brands...based on my own experience...although I have to say, I buy all of my vehicles new and take care of them as per maintenance/service requirements, and I don't run them into the ground either...perhaps that makes a difference...
I think the reliability argument was true several years ago for older products but is no longer valid...
BTW, the all new 2008 VW Tiguan (compact SUV) due out next year looks pretty sweet...and has fold flat rear seats and a diesel engine option and a 4WD option....I will definitely keep this one on the list of test drives...
If you stick to the maintenance book, neither Honda nor Subaru should be expensive to service. My Accord has a maintenance minder system (that the CR-V, Civic, Odyssey, Pilot, etc... all have also) that tells you when your car needs servicing based on how many revolutions the engine has turned since the last oil change. For me, I have been 5,100 miles since my last oil change, and my oil life monitor shows 40% remaining. I was afraid to go this long the first couple of times, but my new-car ownership jitters are over and I'm going by this minder now. Looks like I'll get about 8,000 miles on this oil. (BTW, the vehicles with the 2.4L in the CR-V BEFORE the minder debuted called for an oil change at 5,000 or 10,000 miles, depending on whether you drive in "severe" or "normal" conditions).
My oil changes cost under $24 (a quickie lube will do it for under $20). Now my dealer offers free maintenance for 3 years/36k miles (which my dad gets to utilize on his new Civic).
What I meant to say was, if you follow what the manufacturer recommends, which in Honda's case is to follow the maintenance minder, and in Subaru's case indicates a service every 7500 miles for normal conditions.
From what I can discern, the maintenance minders out there in the field are calling for services at similar intervals compared to when they just printed a book. Oil change and tire rotation every 5-10,000, VTM fluid every 15k, air filter every 30k, etc... But, I like the idea of having the service intervals automatically determined by the car's actual operating conditions instead of by a book.
I have children and a wife who drive. I don't want to ever find them DEAD, FROZEN to death, because their CRV got stuck in 4" snow. I would rather they get home in a Subaru!...
No flame and no disrespect intended.
I'm trying to figure out why you are on a CR-V Forum since you obviously have such a high disregard for them.
With 5 Subarus and no CR-Vs, wouldn't you be better served, happier, on a Subaru forum. Or at least on a CR-V vs Subaru forum :confuse:
Thanks,
Kip
The best you could do to back up your ridiculous hyperbole related to repair costs is to use the price of a replacement key as an example. LOL.
I don't want to ever find them DEAD, FROZEN to death, because their CRV (sic) got stuck in 4" snow.
The CR-V will NOT get stuck in 4" of snow. Unless it is driven by an incompetent driver, your family does know how to drive, don't they?
Out here is the Northwest the Subaru is a Much better choice than the CRV (sic).
Yes I know the Pacific Northwest is one of the prime markets for Subaru (along with the, shall we say, the Martina Navratilova crowd in New England). I saw a lot of Subarus during my Washington state vacation in September.
Just in case you were not aware, for 30 years one of Honda's main points of entry has been Seattle, and based on my observations during my trip, Honda sells quite a few vehicles in the Northwest.
The CRV (sic) had to be sold at 40% below book to get rid of it. AND it was in perfect shape.
As for your resale value stats, I ain't buying them. Honda consistently is at or near the top for resale value.
MNF
As for your resale value stats, I ain't buying them. Honda consistently is at or near the top for resale value.
I agree! Drive62. I'm not buying them either.
Book value are a summary/average for what something has been selling for, recently. These values are updated at least monthly. In the case of Kelly Blue Book they even ask your zip code to really be accurate for vehicles sales in that area. There are different "Book" values for Trade In, Private Sale, and Dealer sale.
As example: If the "BOOK" is say $10K, a car would have to be in pretty bad condition to only bring $6K (40% under book).
A "Perfect Condition" car is going to sell/bring at near or slightly above book. The junkers or poor condition cars will sell at less than Book.
In the South East the CR-V has about the highest percentage of resale value of any car. This may not necessarily hold true in other areas of the country.
The nearest of the 2-3 Subaru Dealers in Atlanta area is nearly an hour from me. There are 4 of the 10+ Honda dealers within 20 minutes. CR-Vs are everywhere.
This is not to say that Honda is better or Subaru is better. Honda's sell much better here!
Kip
I do...and I don't.
I do because the last two rental cars I've had (Chevy, Ford) have had their air bag lights on. I have a Taurus right now, with 8000 miles on it, and the light is on plus the transmission makes clunky shifts. The steering doesn't feel quite right, it's loosey goosey.
My '93 Miata is in the body shop and I can't wait to get it back, I swear it has held up better in 13 years than this Taurus has in 8000 miles.
But I agree that on average the gap has narrowed enough that the difference is small, and so reliability matters much less than it used to.
Ford just announced they are hiring temps to build the Lincoln Town Car because more people resigned than they had expected. You want to buy one of those Town Cars?
-juice
juice - gimme a source. I know that Ford got more buyout requests than they expected but it isn't like they left already.
If Ford hired temps, I don't they called Manpower. I'm sure that since they are still working under UAW rules, they recalled layed off workers temporarily.
Honda won three of the top slots by category and also two of the top 10 best cars regardless of category. None of those were the CR-V (The MDX won the only SUV category), so only the above 56% average applies to this discussion. There were no Subaru's on either list.
As another measure of value, Honda (Acura rated separately) won the overall best brand for residuals. Subaru was ranked 3rd.
In the individual category rankings, Honda took the Minivan segment. (The Wrangler took compact SUV.) Despite having a good overall score, Subaru did not land any specific vehicle at the top of a class.
While I can understand regional differences presenting a problem for a specific brand, no one should make blanket statements about resale without considering information like that.
Not clear where all the temps are coming from.
I also checked with others who were selling CRV in our local paper. We all started at book and we all ended up 6 to 8 weeks later selling them for 30 t0 40% UNDER book.
You may be in an area where the AWD system doesn't have to be good, and is not ever life saving. Out here it's no joke if you get stuck in snow in a storm because your AWD is not good enough or you don't have enough power to get you home.
All I'm saying is that in my area of the country (Northwest), the Subaru is a much better choice for a real AWD car.
If you live where I do, you ARE betting you life on your AWD system. I always want the best hand I can get. I think Subaru is that.
Just trying to keep the BS to a minimum.
Let's practice what we preach, then, shall we?
YOU sold your CR-V for 28% under blue book value. Sorry. That doesn't mean that the "Average" sale price of CR-Vs is "40 % below blue book." Wild accusations are pointless, and don't help a poster's credibility.
MNF
It is in the eye of the beholder. But, be that as it may, it is sure not anywhere near book. Most Subaru in this are sell for book or more and you don't have to wait 6 to 8 weeks to sell them. In fact there are 3 guys here in this area that do nothing but go to Calif. and Denver to get lease returned Subarus. They make a good living bringing them back and selling them in front of their houses. (They are dealers and do have dealer licenses, but don't need a lot. I have never seen any of them touch a Honda CRV. I asked one about the CRV and why he didn't ever sell them. He just said the Subarus are so good for this area he just sells them. He did know a guy who brought up a few CRV and had to keept them (in front of the house too long.) No mention of what he got for them.
Kelley has different books too, so the prices in the dealer book may be different than the consumer number (and those are asking prices, unlike Edmunds TMV numbers, which are based on real sales).
Another good way to predict value over the years is to look at Edmunds True Cost to Own tool. TCO
I say there has to be a story behind why your vehicle sold for so much back of book. Was there damage, were there high miles, previous accident? C'mon - fess up.
I also checked with others who were selling CRV in our local paper. We all started at book and we all ended up 6 to 8 weeks later selling them for 30 t0 40% UNDER book.
You may be in an area where the AWD system doesn't have to be good, and is not ever life saving.
I don't know what "BOOK" you were looking at to try and sell your Car.
As stated earlier, any Book price is the average of sales for that particular vehicle. That also depends on who is selling the vehicle. If you are trying to sell a vehicle for the price a dealer is asking, you probably are going to fall short.
Considering a Person to Person private sale, which is where you indicate you were, Your "LIKE PERFECT" CR-V should have sold for above Person to person Book value. That Person to Person Book Value is indeed the average. It considers all that model, good and bad, in your area that actually sold.
I can't remember all the PERFECT, LIKE NEW cars I've gone to see that turned out to be much worst than average. :sick:
It doesn't matter what kind of drive a vehicle has or whether it is a life saver. BOOK is BOOK for the particular type of sale for a particular vehicle. If people are not willing to give Book for that vehicle, they must consider it less than average BOOK.
If a CR-V equipped as a Subaru typically sells for less than the Subaru, then the Subaru has better resale. That would reflect in the BOOK! I'm not saying that a CR-V has better % of resale value than a Subaru in your area. I am saying that a Subaru that is "Perfect" will sell at the top of BOOK for that model. So will a CR-V, or even a Caravan.
Kip
Could be that the CR-V high resale in California made it hard to resell in Your area. And the Subaru lower prices in California made it easier to resale in your area.
You can't look at "BOOK" in one area and expect that to hold true in another.
Kip
Well, here in Central New England there are CR-Vs and Subies aplenty and, happily for my family's outlook, the arrival of Spring doesn't coincide with the discovery of the DEAD, FROZEN drivers and passengers of CR-Vs.
You can't get to my house without climbing several steep hills, most of them on curving roads with 4-way stop signs cleverly placed to frustrate the poorly equipped.
I've driven my CR-V up the hills toward home in blizzards in lines made up mostly of AWD Hondas and Subies and Toyotas and, frankly, all the drama I've seen has been provided by the drivers, not the vehicles.
FWIW, if you're looking to sell a CR-V or Subie, you might try Maine. Up there, the Winter vehicle of choice is a 4WD pickup truck with at least two body panels of contrasting color and a dozen empty beer cans in the bed. After that come ancient Hondas and Subies, a representation that shows the ability of both vehicles to handle serious weather and provide long service. Seems to me the choice is mostly personal preference.
...so it ends up being a shell game...
...pay more upfront and get more $ later or pay less upfront and get less $ later....
Yes, I know! Merely being a smartass. :P
Although, please keep in mind there are still people out there, paying an extra $1,000 or $2,000 will preclude them from buying a car. Some people, the extra $25 a month is a deal breaker...
Now, back in the day, we waited to buy until we could actually afford to buy a car. Cash. Those days are dead and gone forever, except for the lucky 10% of us who can buy whatever.