Traffic Laws & Enforcement Tactics

stever

Your names are so agreeable for a minute there I thought you were talking to yourself. :shades:

Only inconsiderate driver today was some pickup parked in front of the main door of a little strip mall. But then she moved and I was able to park there.

fintail

Something else that should exist is a "dead" spot for a second or so where the light is red in all directions.

I wonder if lights are also shortened in some places to let less cars through, make people impatient, which encourages them to risk it on a late yellow fly through. Also burns more gas, so the revenuers win twice.

andres3

I'm not against a 1 or 2 second dead spot, but I do believe making the yellow a second or 2 longer does the exact same thing to the exact same effect.

fintail

True. Long yellow with a one second dead spot would be optimal. But the manipulators will then make a short yellow with no dead spot, to increase their revenues and claim there is a "safety" issue (rather than an engineering issue).

On that subject, I have ran (after stopping) several red lights in the past week, lights that are completely out of sequence and just sit there when there is no cross traffic. Why can't these guys get their acts together?

stever

I think it may be helpful to post what the Michigan law is, and I would guess that it's the same in other areas.

"Unless it is dangerous to stop, you must stop when the light turns yellow. The only exception is when you are preparing to make a left turn and you are already within the intersection." (michigan.gov)

Yellow means stop, not floor it to beat the light.

fintail

Maybe safer to guess than to bet :shades: ...Looks like there might be some regional differences

Under “steady yellow indication,” RCW 46.61.055 states: “Vehicle operators facing a steady circular yellow or yellow arrow signal are thereby warned that the related green movement is being terminated or that a red indication will be exhibited immediately thereafter when vehicular traffic shall not enter the intersection.”

Sgt. Freddy Williams of the Washington State Patrol is sympathetic to the question.

“This has been debated for years, and there is no definite answer,” he said. “The RCW indicates that there is no mandate to stop when you see a yellow light; only that when the light turns red vehicular traffic shall not enter the intersection.”

He advises that drivers use common sense. “If you are approaching the intersection, the light turns yellow, and you have time to come to a safe stop prior to entering the intersection, you should stop.”

This is especially true if you’re behind another car going into the intersection.

“If you anticipate the car in front of you accelerating to get through the intersection and they decide to stop, you could be parked in their trunk,” Williams said.

Which is kind of what I do - if the road ahead has cars, proceed with caution. If it is empty, engage warp drive (or if I am in the old car, start slowing). A "safe stop" is also subjective...I am not going to lock em up and do god knows what to my car because some fancy chair warmers protected by a civil service union can't get the lights to match traffic flow.

stever

That's some poorly written stuff there. No wonder there's no definite answer.

andres3

I've studied the CA vehicle codes regarding yellow and red lights pretty extensively, and basically, if your front bumper crosses the limit line before the light turns RED, you are legally in the intersection, and if not, you went through a red light.

Therefore, with the way camera enforcement currently works, your best options are to either slam the accelerator, or slam the brakes when you encounter a yellow, because speeding tickets are far less costly than red light tickets (much lower fine), and if you get rear ended choosing the latter method, at least it's not your fault insurance wise.

I find I don't risk getting red light tickets anymore. I'm either gunning it, or stopping on a dime.

the_big_al

If the light turns yellow and I can safely stop, I do so. Although as I approach each intersection, I make mental notes of the light and watch it. I watch for my "point of no return" and if I reach that point and the light turns yellow, I'm going through the intersection. Sometimes this puts me entering the intersection just as the light turns red. However that is usually when I am traveling about 60 MPH (yes on the hwy with a 55 MPH speed limit, there are stoplight) and so it is much better to go through the intersection than to screech to a halt halfway into the intersection. Bear in mind I also have my eyes open all around me to other traffic, left turners, right turners from the intersecting street and such. Always am I prepared to stop at the intersection, but I plan on making it through.

elias

same lame technique was used on east coast during 1970s & early 1980s, with no positive results, soon was abandoned due to *fuel costs* of having multiple state cop cars required for the "rolling roadblock" , not to mention all the wasted fuel for the traffic stuck behind the "rolling roadblock".
for some reason they didn't want to zigzag or otherwise block the lanes back then.

if they try it today there will soon be an app for drivers to volunteer to take a speeding ticket by hammering it past the cop - then all the other drivers nearby can again be free to drive at normal 79.9 mph highway speed and the app/pre-registered credit-card will fund the guy $2 who took the ticket for the team.

elias

First time I elected to proceed through red light after stopping was at 2AM in 1982 , no other cars for miles except for one directly behind me... Which followed me through the stale red.... And lit me up 3 miles down the road with a decidely non-stale flashing blue light..
It was a police detective... Not a traffic cop at all..
Thanks to that Police Detective Vermonter, that first time was also the last time, except when the signal was actually malfunctioning/stuck-red (it happens)!
Detention by a detective is a rare honor, even for those at the Platinum Honors rewards level of Highway Frequent Speeders Club (that's PHHFSC pronounced phonetically).

fintail

I hope the more than fairly compensated revenue enforcement officer didn't actually cite you for disobeying the negligently maintained traffic controls.

I "run" stuck reds relatively often, and if I actually get a ticket for it, I'm going to fight it to the point where a class action or similar proceeding is taken against the city for their failure to maintain their infrastructure. The gas and time wasted by broken and out of sync lights has to be mind-boggling. These people need to be reigned in and forced to do some work - they are the public sector equivalents of Enron or Worldcom, deceivers and cheats.

elias

thanks, finny... no citation for that one, just some pointedly invigorating conversation with a Nativermonter police detective, including his actually-funny jabs at Boston Drivers.
(As usual, my attitude during the traffic stop probably was crucial for preventing citation and/or "etcetera".)

fintail

That gives me some faith. I like to think that most officers are reasonable enough to understand that a sane person shouldn't just sit there waiting for an arbitrarily sequenced or broken light to change on a deserted road. But, if the badge has a quota or a runaway ego, all bets are off.

stever

"The National Motorists Association said on Monday it is betting $10,000 that red-light cameras are a bad idea.

The traffic group is urging cities to identify a camera-controlled intersection with numerous violations and apply National Motorists Association traffic-engineering solutions instead. If the methods don't cut violations by at least 50 percent, the city gets the $10,000 to use on traffic safety."

Traffic Group Bets Against Red-Light Cameras (Inside Line)

andres3

I love how the NMA is actively engaged in promoting the ridiculous nature of automated traffic enforcement, and is willing to put their money where their mouth is.

This also highlights how dumb our local gov't officials are when it comes to doing things the right way.

hillmanbilly

I've been stopped for this twice (both times at the same light, strangely enough).

Two different cops. Both let me go both times after I explained it to them. I agree that most cops are pretty reasonable.

fintail

Funny thing, I saw it happen this morning, but I wasn't the first one there. I pull up to a light at 0530, usually deserted intersection, and 2 cars are sitting there. As I got within 2 blocks, one ran the red. Light changed about 30 seconds later, probably after sitting red with no cross traffic for 5 minutes or more. I can't see how any cop could give a ticket for that - and if they did I hope it would result in massive legal action against the city.

andres3

As I haven't heard of any cities collecting on the 10,000 dollars!

fintail

Why would they? The money they (and the cronyist camera owners) get from the scheme is a lot more than that.

andres3

To at least attempt to show that they have some remaining human decency left in their souls?

To redeem themselves.

To show the NMA that they are "right!" Well, at least attempt to prove the NMA wrong.

fintail

Redeem themselves to who? It's not like they can be fired or otherwise touched. They just don't care.

andres3

To the god they choose to believe in of course.

Judgement day was supposed to happen in 2011; didn't you hear?

andres3

a charity of the guilty parties choice!!!!

This would solve the revenue generation scheme and conflict of interest currently spewing from the existing system.

andres3

Donate to the Police OFficer's union and i'll give you the ticket for 14 over..... if not, I'm writing you up for 21 MPH over.

fintail

Sounds no different from FOP stickers on cars, or in WA state, the "Law Enforcement Memorial" license plates.

andres3

Denver City Council gives initial OK to keep photo tickets, despite audit calling for their end

Your tax dollars at work in the name of "safety?" I think not!

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_19669806

michaellno

Denver City Council gives initial OK to keep photo tickets, despite audit calling for their end

Your tax dollars at work in the name of "safety?" I think not!

As I live in Colorado, I'm following this with great interest.

What I find amusing is that the local TV stations have done a few stories in the past couple of months that tell the public that if you get a ticket in the mail, you can ignore it as the law stipulates that the infraction must be handed to you by a sworn peace officer.

Glad I don't get up to Denver all that much.

fintail

I wonder what kind of bribes ACS used to get that through. Aaah capitalism!

andres3

Funny the city of Escondido near San Diego seems to only care about profits and losses, and not what the purported reason for the cameras was in the first place.

The whole system is a JOKE!

http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/escondido/escondido-former-deputy-loses-licens- e-because-of-red-light-camera/article_7ce7c445-bb7a-5a16-97b7-d476507afa22.html

ESCONDIDO: Former deputy loses license because of red-light camera error

Read more: http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/escondido/escondido-former-deputy-loses-licens- e-because-of-red-light-camera/article_7ce7c445-bb7a-5a16-97b7-d476507afa22.html#- ixzz1n9mD7RGg

kyfdx

On the plus side, Escondido is home to the Stone Brewing Company

andres3

Just remember to not drink too much of the Stone Brewing Company's offerrings if you are driving in that Martial Law town afterwards.

kyfdx

A trip there definitely requires a DD...

stever

"The New Jersey Department of Transportation has directed 21 of the 25 municipalities that are participating in a pilot program to suspend issuing summonses to motorists on the basis of video evidence provided by cameras placed at intersections.

The suspension order affects 63 of the 85 intersections statewide where red light cameras are operating or have been approved for operation. It affects all locations in 19 participating municipalities and one intersection in each of two other municipalities.

NJDOT, which is administering the five-year pilot program, has ordered that the issuance of new violation summonses be suspended at the 63 intersections because it has come to the attention of the Department that the pilot program legislation specifies a formula to determine the proper duration of the yellow light in a traffic signal that differs from the legally required, nationally accepted formula that NJDOT or municipalities use when installing traffic signals."

NJDOT

KCRam

I think the more interesting thing is, the national standard is tied to speed limits, but the program is tied to vehicle speed. So if the speed limit is 30, the state originally had a 3 second yellow. But if the 85th percentile speed is 40 (10 over the limit), the camera rule would dictate a 4.5 second yellow.

kcram - Pickups/Wagons/Vans+Minivans Host

stickguy

saw that today in the local paper. Curious to know if they find that the yellow was too short, will they have to refund all those fines?

fintail

This is amusing

graphicguy

Some rumbling in OH that the areas that have instituted the "short yellow" and more particularly, the red light cameras, will have to refund all fines collected, in addition to having to pay to have the "yellow lights" returned to normal, and the dismantling of the red light cameras.

That's when the crying will start about not having enough money for law enforcement.

It was the municipalities grand faux pas. I'm all for cutting, or eliminating the city council's pay as a punitive action by their constituency. Red light camera companies should return all fees to their respective counties and cities. Since they'll have no reason to exist, their assets and any investments made should also be forfeited to the municipalities who they sold this crazy scheme to.

stever

They might have to refund the money.

This city in CA had short yellows:

Bay Area City Must Refund Red Light Camera Tickets (Jalopnik)

These were was just plain illegal:

City To Issue Refunds For Red-Light Camera Tickets (CBS-Miami)

This was a broken camera:

More than 3K drivers to get speeding ticket refund (Wbaltv-Baltimore)

fintail

Should be more than refunds - those responsible should be financially destroyed and then get to spend some time behind bars.

aoigoddess

this lady in houston got arrested for trying to warn people of a speed trap, since they had no reason to arrest her, they made one up and locked her up lol...justice...yeah right i read about four cop cars parked under a highway pulling people over as they went through the u-turn, they said they were probably taking turns writing up tickets to meet the quota. for shame.
u-turn trap and woman gets arrested for warning people of a speed trap

stever

Someone in Florida took Seminole County to court for something similar and won.

Florida judge rules flashing lights for speed trap warning is covered under free speech (Autoblog)

fintail

The cop and his overpaid unfireable superiors should also get a nice dose of punitive damages thrown at them for wasting peoples time.

stever

""Maybe we can shame them, and we should look at that, because if Albany is not going to let us do this stuff, we've got to save lives," he said.

Mayor Bloomberg, speaking on a radio show on June 22, suggested that if the city's law enforcement officials couldn't ticket violators for speeding, the cameras could serve as a way to humiliate violators by enabling the city to post their pictures in public places."

Public Shaming May Be Next Tactic Against Speeders in Big Apple (Inside Line)

surrfurtom

When there is police abuse or false arrest, it is always the city and taxpayers that are sued. It should be the police pension fund that is required to pay the settlement, and not have it replenished. That would put an end to these often ridiculous actions by those entrusted to protect, serve and defend those who pay their wages.

oldfarmer50

I share this guy's frustration.

Partially hidden by curve on St. John's lane, a speed camera van looks for law-breakers in Ellicott City. (Photo for The Baltimore Sun by Doug Kapustin / June 27, 2012)
Related

Ellicott City man arrested for vandalizing speed camera van

Map: Speed camera locations in Baltimore City
5 instances of speed camera vandalism in Balto. Co. in 2 years
Balto. Co. adding five speed cameras

Howard speed cameras caught more than 6,000 in first 4 months
Topics
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Maps
Manor Woods Elementary School, 11575 Frederick Rd, Ellicott City, MD 21042, USA

By Erin Cox, The Baltimore Sun
9:36 p.m. EDT, June 27, 2012

When the 50-year-old driver handed over his slingshot, he admitted to pelting the speed camera van with glass marbles.

By the time Bruce L. May of Ellicott City was arrested and in Howard County police custody Tuesday night, police said, he had revealed he had taken it personally when he was issued two tickets in the past six weeks after being captured by speed cameras.

The incident near a Howard County elementary school is just the latest in a spate of Baltimore-area vandalism against speed cameras. During the past year, vans carrying the cameras and stationary cameras positioned around the region have been targeted with rocks, spray paint and hammers.

"Like" The Sun's Howard County Desk Facebook page

Last summer, in a highly publicized incident, a man wielding a hammer and a shotgun smashed the windshield of a speed enforcement van on the Baltimore-Washington Parkway near the airport. That assailant remains at large, Maryland State Police spokesman Gregory M. Shipley said Wednesday.

And the reaction to the cameras isn't confined to Maryland. A District of Columbia scofflaw this spring marked disguised camera locations with a bright orange X.  In 2008, Arizona's Department of Public Safety dispatched an investigator to determine who had blocked camera lenses with Silly String and Post-It notes, according to news reports.

As the cameras spread throughout the Baltimore area — there are roughly 100 across the region doling out $40 tickets — vandals have exacted their own form of justice against them.

Motorists gripe most about hard-to-see speed cameras tucked near schools, said Ragina C. Averella of AAA Mid-Atlantic.

"In most cases, they're frustrated with what they view as a game of 'gotcha,'" she said.

But officials say those feelings of frustration are no justification for vandalism.

"It's not OK for people to voice their opposition through violence," Howard County Police Chief William McMahon said. "That's not what democracy is about. ... This is violence, and there's people inside many of those vans."

People tend not to object to cameras in work zones, but many drivers find those near schools poorly marked and suspect they are set up to generate money for jurisdictions rather to ensure public safety, Averella said.

The cameras have spread since a 2009 state law allowed local jurisdictions to install them.

Howard County has collected $482,040 in fines and issued more than 15,000 citations since launching its program a little more than six months ago, Howard County Police Department spokeswoman Sherry Llewellyn said. Llewellyn said the money covers the cost of the program.

Anne Arundel County is the largest suburban jurisdiction without speed cameras, in part because constituents there disliked them.

"I think most of the citizens I've talked to in the county resent the 'Big Brother' policy that the camera represents," County Executive John R. Leopold said.

While denouncing the vandalism, Leopold added that he also decided not to use the speed cameras because he thought they were a bad way to raise money and that a face-to-face interaction with a police officer was a more effective deterrent to speeders.

Even people who can keep their temper under control find speed-camera tickets infuriating, said George Anderson, executive director of the California-based American Association of Anger Management Providers.

"One, it's the element of surprise," said Anderson, who chuckled at May's slingshot retaliation. "Two, it's a feeling — a perception — that they're out to get you."

Police said May's alleged attack outside an Ellicott City elementary school — the marbles that were used left a quarter-sized dent and caused roughly $500 worth of damage — marked the third violent vandalism of speed enforcement vehicles in Howard County this month. In June, a technician was hit by a rock tossed through a speed camera van window, officials said.

The Howard assaults follow a torching of a Catonsville speed camera in April, the fifth camera vandalism in Baltimore County in the past two years. Vandals have uprooted equipment, smashed protective plexiglass coverings and spray-painted cameras.

In January, a Baltimore speed camera near Bolton Hill went up in flames on a Friday morning.

Speed camera vendor Affiliated Computer Services, which provides speed cameras for Baltimore City and Howard and Baltimore counties, would not comment on how often their equipment is vandalized.

"We don't discuss the safety and security measures of our apparatus," company spokesman Chris Gilligan said, declining to elaborate on how a van might be protected from marbles.

According to charging documents, May twice unleashed marbles from the window of his minivan as he cruised past the speed camera vehicle. The driver of the speed van, which had been parked outside Manor Woods Elementary School, followed May's minivan and honked until May pulled over.

A Howard County police officer arrived to arrest May, who was charged with second-degree assault, destruction of property and reckless endangerment. He was released on $3,000 bond.

May could not be reached for comment, but the officer wrote in documents that "May stated he was sorry and said he was stupid for shooting at the van."

ecox@baltsun.com

fintail

I could go for that. There is no non-executive line of work with less responsibility or accountability.

For the NYC shaming idea, Bloomburg should parade that up and down the financial district, shame the FIRE industry leaders who are virtually wholly responsible for the mess we are in today. NYC has a lot more problems than speeders...from my last visit there, there's only so much speeding you can do anyway.

For the slingshot revenue camera shooter, his only mistake was not wearing a mask and hiding his car. "Reckless endangerment" charge? Now that's trumped up BS by a revenue enforcement department deathly afraid of being exposed as a sham.

berri

OK, time to get LarsB back in here to fire things up!!!

larsb

My stance is a broken record, so I don't think it adds much to the conversation:

"If you are not a speeder, speed cameras are as insignificant in your life as knowing what 1 of the billions of Chinese people had for breakfast this morning."

"As insignificant as the temperature at 8:00 A.M. on 12/12/1412."

I hate speeding. I dislike speeders. Anything that can take them off their high horse and make them realize the speed limits ( whether or not they AGREE with that speed, or regardless of how much of a HURRY they are in, or regardless of how much money they have to afford tickets and higher insurance rates ) are there for EVERYONE to obey.

Not just people who agree with the limits.

Everyone. That means YOU, sir, and YOU TOO, madam(e).

elias

LarsB, please keep your posted-limit-following-self in the right lane where you belong, and the road will be safer and more efficient for everyone out there, including you. Thanks for your consideration!

Sometimes you'll see me over there in the right lane too, just barely above the limit, and never tailgating you. But if you try the 55 mph in the middle lane, get ready for a nonstop parade of thousands of drivers passing you at 79.9 mph *on your right and left at the same time*.

I see it every day - if you drive 55 mph in the middle or left lane, the other drivers will TOOL on you, making the road less safe for everyone, until you obey the civil vehicle rules and drive in the rightmost available lane.

If you try "posted limit" in the middle lane, there might be one driver who appears directly on your right in the right lane where you actually belong, matching your speed for endless miles so that you are stuck in the middle and cannot exit or move right, with tailgators way up close and personal to you, and left-lane traffic passing you at 99 mph.
I've seen it happen. I've had a *car* try to prevent me from exiting the highway thusly (he failed, and ended up taking a surprise exit himself).

Once during 1980s on NY thruway upstate at 2AM, 2 lanes, 3 semis did same thing to me, boxed me in for about an hour, preventing me from exiting the highway or doing anything else to get away from them. I had a CB and listened to their amusement and asked them to stop. They ignored me. (There's little doubt I deserved it for trying to pass them too aggressively, just like you surely deserve what you get for whatever misguided road-enforcer antics you try, LarsB!)