What Will Be a Future Classic?

michaellno

Um, you guys are missing the most important fact about Jon Voight ....

He's Angelina Jolie's father!

hpmctorque

Interesting! Didn't know that.

hpmctorque

There have been hints in the press recently that Mercedes may shut down the Maybach brand, because it has fallen short of sales targets. Could the Maybach be tomorrow's Duesenberg to collectors?

Mr_Shiftright

Not if the Golden Rule of Collectibles applies:

"Unloved new, unloved old".

I think the Maybach in 20 years will be more like a 70s or 80s Rolls sedan..."bargain" money-pits sold at wholesale prices at auctions to the unsuspecting.

texases

Take a look at Ebay - many Maybachs listed, none sold, most with no bids. No one looks at one at thinks 'I gotta get me one of those!'

fintail

The only Maybach I would want would be a prewar model

hpmctorque

If the implication is that it will take another world war for the current Maybach to become a sought after, high dollar classic, well, let's hope it remains unloved.

"I think the Maybach in 20 years will be more like a 70s or 80s Rolls sedan..." (Shifty)

Another head wind for Maybach is that, while virtually everyone is familiar with the Rolls Royce brand, I'd guess that few people know what a Maybach is. This may even be true among wealthy people. Seems to me that Maybach marketing has failed to promote the brand, because you have to be familiar with something to desire it.

texases

Good point. I remember several years ago (before its failed restyling) that a survey ranked the Lincoln Town Car as the most desired car...

andre1969

at the Philly auto show, and it looked to me like it may have been redesigned. Honestly, I'm not that impressed with it. While it's big and technologically impressive, and has a wonderfully opulent interior, the styling just looks kinda like a big Kia Amanti to me. They're not really putting that much effort into paintjobs anymore, it seems, either. Orange peel on this thing was something fierce. You'd think for that price and the ultra-low production, that they'd buff the paint out and make the finish mirror smooth.

Now true, those harsh auto show lights can sometimes bring out the flaws in anything, but it's still a sad state of affairs when a $200+ car has a lumpier paintjob than a 1972 Valiant (albeit a restored 1972 Valiant)

texases

What say $335,000+ base! All those unsold ones on Ebay were in the $200,000 range - talk about taking a bath. If you want a laugh, go to, say, the MSN auto web site and price one out - $12,000 for "Upgraded genuine wood trim" (wouldn't want any plastic at that price, I guess), $15,000 for "Rear bench seat with manual headrests" (wonder how much the power ones cost), and my favorite is $19,900 for "Emerald Green Leather Interior: Emerald Green Located On Seats, Carpet, Seatbelts, Doors, Dash, Armrest, Gear Shifter and Headliner"

hpmctorque

Seems to me that most the these upgrades should be standard on such a car.

Mr_Shiftright

You're talking to clients to whom $200,000 is nothing. For them, it's like getting the car for free.

fintail

And also, it is old school Mercedes pricing strategy - make everything optional. Most US market mainstream MB don't suffer from this, but in Europe *everything* is still optional...I have even read stories claiming back in the old days MB would even charge for the fluids in the car.

Mr_Shiftright

Porsche is the champion of the "tiered status obstacle" concerning options. They are one of the few companies that can make you look like a cheapskate for buying a "base" car for $80,000.

But these myriad of options don't matter if the car itself doesn't matter to collectors. Yes, you might have the only surviving AMC Gremlin with the pink sun visors AND the tissue dispenser options, but really, who cares except some Gremlo-phile who still won't offer you a penny over $1,200 for your treasure?

I guess the Maybach might end up something like the old Mercedes 600s---they'll drop down to a certain level in price and just stay there forever. Or a Delorean or Avanti is also like that--interesting enough to maintain a certain value, but going nowhere and assigned a back shelf.

lemko

Geeze, that 1972 Plymouth Valiant Scamp we saw had a smoother paint job than either the Maybach or S-Class.

british_rover

God I agree on the Porsche options list. They can be so, so long and just trying to decipher which options do what and then which ones cancel out other things require a Doctorate in engineering.

hpmctorque

"Yes, you might have the only surviving AMC Gremlin with the pink sun visors AND the tissue dispenser options..."

Please don't dis my car!

texases

Just took a look - unbelievable! How about Leather on Mirror, $475 or Leather on Front and Rear Speakers, $2570, and it goes on and on and on...

andre1969

Leather on Front and Rear Speakers, $2570, and it goes on and on and on...

Good lord, I think $2570 is about my average purchase price for a whole CAR! :surprise: The $20K Intrepid skewed things upward, but there were enough hand-me-downs and castoffs and $500-$2000 cars in there to drag the average back down.

Mr_Shiftright

They are beautifully made and finished cars, though, the Maybachs. But they aren't very interesting, nor particularly distinctive. I mean, when you stumble on an Enzo in the street, your eyes bug out, but a Maybach is just this really nice shiny lump of something or other.

texases

So, 20 years from now, it will be an old, luxurious, complicated, expensive-to-fix, and unknown-but-to-a-few curiousity, as compared to a Rolls, which will be all of the above, except it'll be a Rolls, and Topeka grandmas know what they are! So if a 20-year-old Rolls is worth maybe 1/10 of its original price, then what for a Maybach? 1/20?

Mr_Shiftright

Well you'd have to adjust for inflation. A mercedes 600 sells today for roughly what it sold for in 1970. But $40K in the year 1970 was a hell of a lot of money. Now that theh price of a loaded MINI and a trip to Disneyworld with the family.

british_rover

One of my former co-workers sold a Supercharged Range Rover to a guy with a Maybach 62. He had the driver and everything when he came to pick up the car. I sat in it and it was nice but ehh not my thing. The car was done in a nice dark blue and white two tone color.

texases

My comments on the 20-year-old Rolls being worth 1/10 was based on where 1980s Rolls are selling on Ebay - about $10,000-$20,000 for cars that sold for about $100,000 - $150,000, right? So the MB600 is doing great to retain 100% of original price.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh you're thinking of the Silver Shadows being so dirt cheap---no, they never cost that much. The later 80s Spirits were quite expensive but they bring much more in resale than the wretched Shadows do.

But yeah, the Mercedes 600 did okay...of course, the $40,000 you pay is just the beginning of what you'll pay...that could easily double in a year or two in repairs.

lemko

...I recently saw a 1987 Rolls-Royce on the local Suzuki lot - the one that kind of looks like a pimped-out 1986 Caprice. I wonder how much he got for it in trade toward a new Forenza? The Suzuki dealer was asking something like $19K for it. I can imagine what a money pit that vehicle is going to be. Might as well play Russian roulette with a .45 automatic. Some flashy dummy will snap it up.

fintail

That was likely a Spirit...sounds about market for a decent one. Maintenance exceeds the value of the car quickly.

Mr_Shiftright

Russian roulette is better because sooner or later the game is over.

hpmctorque

Hmmm, I guess a Dodge Spirit would be a better choice than a Rolls Spirit. And instead of a Rolls Silver Cloud, how about a Chrysler cloud car? Cirrus or Stratus, anyone? Too bad you can't get one with right hand drive. Come to think about it, a chauffeur driven right hand drive black Cirrus might be kind of cool. Pass the Gray Poupon, please.

Mr_Shiftright

hahaha...pass the yellow frank mustard, please!

Actually the old Rolls are creeping up in value but not very quickly....more like an inflation adjustment. Perhaps they are tying old Rolls values to the Consumer Price Index?

The one to have is the 50s Bentley Continental coupe, stich shift in black on black. Schweet......

Anyone have a photo? This is a real "classic" Bentley---it's not only of those old Mark VI tubs.

fintail

Hey I like Adenauers. I wouldn't expect one to be fun to drive...but they have to be nice to sit in and even look at.

Here's the Bentley R-type Continental that you refer to. It was a classic from the day it was built.

Mr_Shiftright

These Continentals could move out smartly...they weren't momma's sofa.

hpmctorque

They had a straight six, correct? How much displacement? Did they have dual overhead cams? How much did they cost new?

andre1969

that looked kinda like a beefed-up 1978 Granada with a Kenworth front-end grafted on? Would that be same thing Lemko's referring to, the Spirit?

It's funny though how, even though they're not very attractive, and probably a mere shell of their former prestige, they still manage to impart an expensive look. Kinda like those old 70's and 80's Jag XJ-6 sedans that are soooo seductive but I'm constantly warned to stay away from.

Mr_Shiftright

overhead camshafts?!! We are talking Bentley/Rolls Royce here...1930s technology museums....

I think the Continental was a 4.5 liter straight 6 with about 175 HP. Its forte was high speed cruising with no drama...it could do 0-60 in maybe 12-13 seconds and cruise well over 100 mph. Not bad for a 3,700 lb car in the early 1950s....certainly better than anything American at high speeds in 1952 or so. An American car of that era at 115 mph would scare you to death I'd imagine, being virtually uncontrollable and un-brake-able. Of course, you could modify a Hudson or Olds coupe and probably stabilize it pretty well. They did race big domestics in Mexico after all.

fintail

I think this is the one you are thinking of...the Silver Spirit, 1981+

Mr_Shiftright

Oh, look, a Lincoln Continental with $1,200 tail light lenses!

fintail

And $8000 brake overhauls and 25 year old British electrics!

There's just no good reason to go there

Mr_Shiftright

Did I ever tell you my Rolls story. This guy wanted to get rid of his right hand drive Corniche coupe...so I went over to his house...the car hadn't run in 3-4 years....I got it running, sounded pretty good, car was in nice shape all around...but the brake pedal went to the floor. He said "yours for $7,500 bucks".

Well I thought it over, figured out how to do the brakes on the cheap maybe, but the right hand drive was discouraging...I mean, it's pretty weird driving a big car like that and trying to pass people on the left on American freeways...

So I finally said NO. But as a favor, or so I thought, I told this British guy who was actually a Rover mechanic about the car. He bought it to ship back home.

Well, he gets it back to the UK and they are unloading it and the transmission gives up the ghost right there on the dock....won't move.

That could have been ME!!!!

fintail

It would have made a nice lawn ornament, anyway.

hpmctorque

I'll agree that most '50s American cars were too softly sprung to feel safe at 100 mph, not to mention >100, and the brakes were similarly weak. The exceptions that come to mind, regarding the suspensions, but not the brakes, are the Hudsons, the '52-'54 Lincolns (they got too big and soft after that), the Corvette, the '55-'57 T-Bird (with the continental tire kit deleted, of course), and the '57-'59 Mopars. I'll hasten to add that the cars mentioned were hardly paragons of stability, but given the era they were relatively stable. That said, the majority of stock '50s American cars couldn't reach an honest 100 mph. Virtually all speedometers were optimistically calibrated, so people thought their cars could go faster than they could really go. For example, the '49-51 Olds Rocket 88 had 135 horsepower, and had a top speed of about 92 mph, more or less. By the late '50s more cars, including the 88, could hit an honest 100 mph, but some, especially those with the base engines, couldn't.

Besides weak suspensions and brakes, tires weren't designed for 100 mph speeds.

As for the Bently R-Type Continental, did it have disc brakes? What kind of tires did it have? In other words, was it really more stable and safer than the American cars mentioned above, or is there some foreign mystique grade inflation associated with its alleged capabilities?

Mr_Shiftright

The Bentley had I believe big 12"+ drums, possibly finned aluminum. The car also had an adjustable ride control, so it could be stiffened by the driver. At the time of production the car was entered in many competitive events of the British type, like rallies, hillclimbs, etc. The transmissions were 4-speeds.

So it had some sporting characteristics, definitely. Nowadays, people who use the Continentals in "re-creation rallies or races" do some mods, like heavier sway bars, tighter steering boxes and better tires....er....tyres....

But I think for the time, it was pretty competent for a big car...large finned drums and fat sway bars and adjustable suspension were practically unheard of on early 50s American cars.

andre1969

Yep, that's it. Now that I see it in that picture, I can see why my grandparents' 1981 Granada caused such a fuss when it was new. While nobody's going to mistake one for the other, there definitely is a resemblance.

I'll never forget the time my grandparents went to the mall with that car when they first got it. Some thuggy looking high school kids were hanging around and suddenly started pointing at it and hollering excitedly, "LOOK!! It's the NEW GRANADA!!" Seriously. I couldn't make something like that up if I tried.

Actually, I don't think that Rolls is a bad looking car, but it just doesn't have the presence of the older models.

I have to admit too, that I liked the style of the '81-82 Granada and Cougar. I just wish they had better engines. Most of them just had 200-straight sixes that put out maybe 88 hp. The 2.3 OHC Pinto 4-cyl was also available, and a rarely ordered option was a 4.2/258 V-8 that had about 112 hp. If Ford would've offered the 302, it would've been a much better car. Oh, and maybe some slightly meatier wheels and tires. I think that's one thing the Rolls did right...fairly large wheels and tires, and mounted fairly far outboard on the car, giving it a stable stance.

andre1969

I dunno about finned drums, but think 12" drums were pretty common, at least on larger domestics. My '57 DeSoto has 12" drums all around, and I think the '55-56 models did as well. Walter P. Chrysler always put a strong emphasis on good brakes, but by 1957 he was long gone, so I'd imagine that mantra was tossed out the window.

Were sway bars common on 50's cars? My DeSoto has a sway bar up front, but neither of my Darts had 'em. But then my '79 R-bodies did.

andre1969

would something like a 1953 DeSoto Firedome have been? My Granddad had one that he bought in 1978 and started to fix up, but when I got close to driving age and had my eye on it, he sold it. His rationale was that he didn't want me driving around in something that old because he knew I'd bring it back to him to fix every time something broke. But I ended up bringing Mom's old Malibu to him every time it broke, so that plan may have backfired on him!

I think I remember an old test of a 1953 Firedome convertible with the semi-automatic tranny, and it did 0-60 in something like 17 seconds. Supposedly though, the old flathead six took something like 21 seconds, so the V-8 was quite a jump. I imagine the semi-automatic sapped a lot of power, though? Would a true automatic, like the Powerflite, have made it quicker? Would that car have been able to break 100 mph? The 276.1 Hemi had 160 hp that year, but in net hp that's really only like 120 or so, and I'm sure that '53 weighed close to two tons.

I also remember a CR test of a 1955 Fireflite with the 200 hp 291-4bbl Hemi, and it did 0-60 in around 13 seconds. By '56 I think they were down to about 11, and I've seen a test of a '57 Firedome convertible, which had a 270 hp 341-2bbl, which was down to 9.8 seconds.

None of these times are particularly spectacular today, but I think it's incredible that in the space of just a few years, they cut 0-60 times down from 20+ seconds to under 10.

I've seen claims floating around that the '58 Fireflite with a 361-4bbl and 305 hp (optional in the Firedome) could do 0-60 in 7.7 seconds, but I think that's a bit optimistic. Or perhaps, with the right gearing? I guess if you put a quick enough ratio in there it would get up to 60 pretty quick, but would give it a really embarrassing top speed.

hpmctorque

"Would that car have been able to break 100 mph?"

My guess is that the '53 DeSoto Firedome would have been good for something over 100, with the semi-automatic.

I don't think PowerFlyte would have made it quicker on the top end. In terms of acceleration, it might have been close to a wash between the two transmissions, as the two additional gears of the semi-automatic would have been offset by the slow gear changes between 1st and 2nd (the low range gears, with the lever in the up position), and 3rd and 4th (high, or normal, drive range, with the lever in the lower position). The transmission could be speed shifted between 2nd and 3rd by moving the lever from the up to the down position. Skillful manipulation of the clutch and accelerator could produce a quick 0-25 or so launch, but the driver had no control over the quickness of the 1st to 2nd and 3rd to 4th shifts, just the speeds at which they occured. Sorry if it's confusing, but that's the way it was.

Mr_Shiftright

Probably in theoretical gearing these old cars could break 100,(on paper, doing the math) but in reality those old V8 engines ran out of air pretty fast...they didn't breathe very well or rev very well (heavy parts)....but that was solvable...port and polish, roller cams, open air cleaners, better intakes and carbs, headers, all that stuff you saw in the 50s.

lehahimik

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hpmctorque

Of course, we all know that Stalin was an authority on cars, and about the world class engineering and build quality that went into Stalin era cars.

hpmctorque

"Probably in theoretical gearing these old cars could break 100,(on paper, doing the math) but in reality those old V8 engines ran out of air pretty fast..."

True, they had a difficult time achieving high rpms, but I believe a stock hemi Firedome could eke out 100 mph, although not much over that.