What Will Be a Future Classic?

m1miata

Oh my, there are some interesting designs. Let's see: Cadillac CTS, Chrysler 300C, Audi TT, Porsche Cayman, Subaru WRX, Hummer, Aston Martin DB9, Scion xB. .... OK, I see what ya mean, not too much exciting out there. Sure, to own a BMW or Mercedes say would be a treat, yet not too much stand out cars for style or uniqueness.

Was reading a magazine, while waiting for someone at a drug store, and they listed some cars with potential as collectables. Now the list was funny. They had may old Oldsmobile Starfire and Monza of say 1975 as a desirable car. I owned an 1976 V6 with a stick. The clutch pull was so hard the plate around the cable actually pulled on through the firewall so they had to weld on a plate where the hole is. It rusted around the windows, had little real power, was nearly over-taching to reach 75 MPH -- 85 was like you were waiting to parts to fly out of that thrashing engine, the inside door handle pulled off, as it was but screwed to cardboard or whatever, and I had to sell it for $299 as scrape after say no more than 7 years. Those are to be a classic? I must say, the looks were sporty for its time, and I did have some fun with it -- heck I was younger, and it was all fun! I ordered the car without air = not a good idea for trips to Vegas :shades: What was really funny was the story of the V8 versions of the Monza sagging under the weight, as they were not designed to carry the heavier V8. Some engineering there. No, the Cutlass was the better choice than was the little sporty Starfire.
-Loren

texases

why current cars won't be collectable. First, they're built too well - they won't rust to pieces, so lots will survive. But when they do break down, it'll be the computers and electronics that will go, or if it's the engine, it won't be a simple matter of swapping in a new small block. Also, the current wave of collectors grew up with, lived with, and worked on these cars. I don't see 16-30 year olds doing the same, except for the tuner set. Does that mean those will be the collectables?

If performance and limited numbers help, how about the "V" Cadillacs, the ZO-6 Corvettes, the limited edition Mustangs, the AMG MBs, the M BMWs, the SRT hemi Chryslers?

Mr_Shiftright

I think the problem with that argument is that "limited edition" has become a totally watered down concept, and AMG and M cars are total mainstream factory cars, not hand-crafted in little workshops somewhere, like in "the old days".

So these "special" cars are a bit of a scam---not in the performance they deliver (they are very competent) but in the illusion that they are somehow scarce or rare or made in tiny numbers for the special few. It's not like that. You got a credit card and a few thousand bucks and you can go buy one in a day. We are not talking about special-bodied cars made for the Crown Prince or a 1930s movie star, with huddled shabby masses drooling over it as it drives by.

Having said that, the cars you mentioned will always be a cut above "used cars"....again, it's a question of how "colletible" you think a V Cadillac will be....I'm guessing "curiosity level" for these cars.

Another way to look at it is taking a cold hard look at these "predictions" of future collectibility. Some magazine is saying that a 1975 X "will" become collectible...and yet it's been 32 years and no action yet....c'mon....give it up....

My feeling is that any intimations of collectibillity should be appearing as little as ten years into the car's life (e.g., 94-96 Impala SS)

Are 90s AMGs hot items now? No. Are old M cars hot items? No. Yeah, people do buy them, and you can get a pretty good price for a very clean used one, but still way below MSRP. Is a 90s Porsche C2 collectible? No, not yet.

If anything, only NOW are late 70s and early 80s Porsches finally starting to bring decent money---and still you can score them for $15K--$18K.

C4 Corvettes? Dead
C5's? Just used cars. Ditto 90s Mustangs.

BUT....ZR1 coupes---bingo! Cobra R Mustangs? Bingo!

Why? Look at the numbers and the stats and the styling and the rarity.

hpmctorque

Shifty, I'm having difficulty reconciling "rarity" with "...people tearing the doors off dealerships, outbidding each other, sleeping in doorways to own one?" (message #239). If a car is extremely desirable it would sell in huge numbers, and, therefore, wouldn't be rare in just 25 or 30 years. It would take 40 or 50 years, or more, such as with the Model T, or the first generation Corvettes, Thunderbirds, '57 Chevy, and early Mustangs, just to cite some examples.

kyfdx

Hmmm.. what about the last air-cooled 911? What was that, '94-'96? Those seem to be really strong..

m1miata

I guess it matters what people are collecting cars for. I would consider the '67 Mustang a collectible, without being a special model of any sort. Sure it may never be top dollar at the famous auction houses, but I really don't care. I think plenty of people collect cars and show them at car shows, not worried about the car being a one of a kind, nor any snob appeal and Hemi bragging rights, etc.
The C4 is a turning point for the Corvette. The C5 a major effort towards refinement of the Vette and pointing it towards world class car. They no longer drive like a truck. The Fox body Mustang, an LX with the V8 was the thing to own for go fast cheap power. If an ugly '57 Chevy Bel-Air hunk of heavy steel is a classic, the lighter weight Fox body era notch back coupe Mustang in LX is one too. Means a lot to Mustang people. Actually, I would not mind buying and holding on the the lat Fox body, the 2004 GT, rather than the replica car thing they have now.

Don't see too many Mavericks out there these days. You know, the inline six ones, which were said to last forever. What about the last 4-4-2 with the two tone paint scheme and hurst shifter? Ya know it was like 180HP V8 in that Cutlass, but seen as power during the darker days for speed in America.
-Loren

m1miata

Love those 911 Porsches..... all of them. Yeah, the last of the air cooled is a classic and a collectible, and a drivers car. What a great design to last for so many years!
-Loren :shades:

Mr_Shiftright

well "rarity" is only one denominator, and by itself means nothing...there are very VERY rare cars that are virtually worthless.

Rabid popularity is another factor, but again, not enough to guarantee collectibility. Nor is age. A 1965 Mustang coupe (commmon, popular)is worth more than a 1915 Model T (common, popular). Why? Because the '65 Mustang is sexy and still in living memory. The Model T is ugly and ancient history.

But of all the factors, popularity when brand new is a good start....but only a start...

Also keep in mind how tastes change in the collector car hobby. At one time, the only cars people "collected" were old V8 Fords...that was the whole hobby...a mini-cult. Big Packards and Cadillacs were junked for scrap...nobody wanted them, except for a few of the special bodied cars.

Really the collector car hobby in America wasn't born until American cars of the late 70s and 80s got so bad and so homely that older cars REALLY started looking good to people. That was the "engine" IMO.

If 70s and 80s cars were somehow made to be as good as late 90s and early 2000s cars we have today, there would have been no collector car hobby of any great depth...just a few flame-keepers, like the old days.

Mr_Shiftright

One reason the 993 is popular (shhhh...keep this to yourself) is that the air-cooled engine is really a much better made, much stronger engine than what they put in the 996. When Porsche goes racing, do they use the new 996 block? Uh-uh....that's right, it's a 993 that they modify and water-cool....

m1miata

Well the current Ford FiveHundred is limited production. Though they weren't trying for the limited sales. :P That was a cheap shot - sorry!

What happened to the 2004 1/2 date for the Mustang 40th Anniversary cars?
The 2004 got the label though technically the first Mustang was the '65. So even if they did not got the 2005 out earlier, it still would be the 40th , would it not? It seems a little odd that the last of the old Fox body cars was used and not the New Stang. Oh well, a replica car is kinda silly anyway. Since the '65 is the listed car model years for the old stang, the new stand is indeed the 40th model. Oh who cares, the Taurus has returned in all its glory.
-Loren

Mr_Shiftright

I think some people who are touting their "rare" cars have to sober up and realize that they are "rare" because nobody wanted them. That's the wrong kind of rare, obviously.

Same with "limited production"---limited by the number of orders the dealers never got to write

texases

Another problem is that the general press (Newsweek, Time, NY Times, etc) has people thinking ALL the collectors with 60's cars are making a million (thanks, BJ), so now people want to know what new car to buy that'll triple in values (answer, none) instead of thinking of it as an interesting, expensive, money down the drain but it's fun hobby...

hpmctorque

Many of the messages on this discussion raise the question of where the classic/collector car business is headed. It seems to me that, between fewer interesting cars that really stand out, and fewer young people today being interested in older cars, due to so many new competing interests, that the classic/collector hobby will be in decline. Maybe it's in for a serious decline in a few years.

Auto show attendance suggests that people still like cars, but it seems to me that most young people today are interested in new cars, or, when affordability is an issue, 2-10 year old cars, but not old cars. The newest electronic features and gadgetry seem to attract a lot of attention these days. This doesn't augur well for future collectibility. Anyone doubting this only has to check out the collector interest in old computers and similar devices.

While I've never taken a statistical sampling, my observation suggests that a disproportionate proportion of the people attending classic cars shows are over 30, even after factoring in the the age distribution of the population.

I'm sure there will still be classic/collector car hobbyists in North America, Europe, and Japan, going forward, but fewer of them. And while I see the hobby getting smaller in these places, it's possible, even likely, that it could grow quickly in developing countries around the world, in places where owning a car is prestigious and exciting, rather than taken for granted, much as it was in the U.S. until 19??.

texases

Good points - one other possible reason is that young people aren't as likely to be collectors or hobbyists, so maybe as they age they'll develop some interest in it.

Shifty also makes a great point about rarity - the problem today is that manufacturers can't afford to produce truly exceptional limited editions just through the options list, because of all the rules about emissions and safety certification. No 15-car Hemi Cuda type of production is now possible, except for the very expensive Ferrari/Porsche/Ford GT vehicles and the occasional Mustang Cobra.

Mr_Shiftright

That's a good point.

I dont' think it is any coincidence that when American cars were truly unique, immensely dominant, varied in the extreme (i.e., so different one from the other), and highly stylish, there WAS NO collector car hobby. Why go to the past when the present is so wonderful?

So as modern automobiles, or IF modern automobiles, continue their renaissance into gadgetry and whizzo-stuff, it may be that the new "ready to buy" generation with some bucks in their pocket will be perfectly content to satisfy their automotive fantasies with newer stuff.....or they may turn their heads to other forms of technology.

People tend to copy the past if the present is boring...that's what the Romans did with the Greeks at any rate :P

hpmctorque

Excellent points, as usual, Shifty and texases.

m1miata

Ya know, I am 54, and while I do love to see those old classics, the car I am buying today is pretty much perfect. I am buying the Chevy or Ford 1950's or '60's equivalent, the Honda Accord coupe with a V6. It does everything, as in corners well, is safe, very fast (beats my '65 Mustang once owned), has the comfort, 6 CD changer, modern looks I like (some consider boring-their opinion) reliability, value, and such. So I can see how younger people may be only interested in tuning their modern cars. From a practical sense, they are better. I recall the dark decades when performance went way down, so the only way to get something fun to drive was to get something from the age of speed. Nowadays, you have your cake and eat it too! I plan on some day getting into a classic car club or a driving club. At that time, I will buy Mustang or Corvette or whatever.

For now I am driving the equal of yesterday's standard for the American road, made in America, but unfortunately not a domestic make. Seems that the Accord and Camry, at least in California, is the modern day '57 Chevy.

Side note: The other car I considered was the Aura, so GM I found to be making a little bit of a come back.

As far as high tech gizmos, I agree, they are popular indeed. The design element is still important to a degree. Style and fashion, I believe are making a come back. With new developments on clean car technology, like electrics, I guess the power V8 cars, like a Mustang with a Magnaflow exhaust could become nothing more than a curiosity some day, as the cars are started up, much like a steam train, just to hear the sounds. Ah the steam engine and whistle sounds! They will say, ah, the sound of a 5.0 engine really sounded like that??? Wow, cars are but silent now.
-Loren

hpmctorque

True, the Accord V6 can put yesterday's pony and muscle cars to shame, performance wise, but to me the old cars felt faster.

m1miata

Yeah, will always be fun to own a rear wheel drive car, with a V8, or a smaller sports car with RWD. Some day, when I have a garage, and perhaps more money to spend, I will consider something of a classic or future classic.

I didn't think much about the Family Olds Cutlass (1972) at the time the parents owned it, but now I am thinking it would be nice to have again. Well, perhaps not when it could not pass many gas pumps. Nice looking old GM product though. Around the final years for good Body by Fisher style. And what about those really stylish Rivieras, and the original Toronado? If I joined a classic car club, I would say the late 60's and earliest 70's have the look I would crave the most, and would likely buy. Say '68 - '72. Well, I am a sucker though for about every Corvette; even those non-performance later 70's, as the Sting Ray look is so cool. Can they make a hood any longer??? I suppose they ride like a truck, and rattle like a babies rattle though -- oh what the heck! Always like Malibu, Camaro, Mustangs, and those AMX and 'Cudas -- an my o' my the Challenger was a beauty. Now they are gonna make a replicar. Mixed feelings about these replicar years. Would rather see new efforts, like the Solstice (only in coupe), than a replicar. Do people really like the interior on those Mustangs now -- why? But then again, love my new Accord. I could love a real deal Mustang, but not so sure about the replicar era. For all its shortcomings, the old Fox body era car, on up to 2004 seemed like the real deal. Not trying to be the past, but for an occasional fake scoop and trim, which was all in fun. Wasn't an " oh look a '65 interior, and a '68 and '69 interior, kinda computer manipulated into 21st Century look thing.
It's probably just me though, as it seems to be the biggest, or only big thing for Ford, and yes, truly the best driving Mustang ever. Can not knock the performance side of the equation - it works! And some may say, looks cool and all that good stuff. Oh that's right, it looks sick. Sick is good and not ill, I take it. Can't keep up with this bad is good and sick is great, and good grief, and at a loss for words! :confuse:
-Loren

boomchek

I know what you mean about the 72 Cutlass. I saw an ad in one of my old Motor Trends for a 72 Cutlass International Salon, and for some reasons I'm attracted to it.

In terms of collecting cars, for me the looks matter more than performance, as I would collect more for me than for reslae values.

Some oddballs that come to mind that I like that are not collectibles (or won't be for that matter):

Ford Contour SE or SVT
Ford Mustang 5.0 LX or GT (90-92
Mazda RX7 mid 90s

Mr_Shiftright

The RX-7 might be, if it were the twin turbo. Don't think the others will be though.

m1miata

That Contour just never did sell well. Neat sized and not bad looking. Sort of reminded me of a coupe I once owned, the Opel Manta Rallye. Still one of the sharpest looking smaller cars to date, IMHO. The car had little in the way of HP, but handled the corners well, and had pretty good steering feel to it. I had the light yellow, with black hood and stripes.

As for the Mustang, I suppose the older 5.0 or the last 2004 GT would be something I could see buying, if I was joining a Mustang club. Though a car which may ever be an expensive classic, they do represent the Pony cars well. The 5.0 just sounds so good, and they had the classic long hood, and short rear deck ( I agree 90-92 would be good ) or even say an '85 GT. A 2004 GT would have the handling and better overall performance however, and still the same era or should I say last of era Fox body.

Any RX-7 is interesting, other than the ones which looked like the Porsche 924. The first year to me is a classic and a collector car. It has looks and one of a kind power unit, with a nice body wrapped around the interesting motor. It sold for an amazingly low price for such advanced technology. Yeah not a great amount of raw power and gas mileage was not world class, but what the heck, what an amazing bit of history.

Why don't we see more Datsun 510, 240Z, RZ-7, Corona's and such in car shows? Is there some reluctance to enter shows where American iron and hot rods take center stage? Are they not welcomed? Hardly ever see those Ford Cortinas, and Mercury Capris. Ya know, I thought those 914 Porsches were pretty cool. Had no idea how bloody slow they were. I suppose the Porsche engined 6 was OK for HP though. How about Opel GTs? Where have all "the rest" cars gone we see little of in car shows. I mean to say, strange cars appear, like little known Fiats, yet other which were actually spotted on the roads of America have seemingly disappeared. My oh my, is the AMX a really rare find now? Even the Javelin seems to be gone. What I thought to be rare, when I was young, the Avanti, seem to be everywhere, as in every show. -Loren

boomchek

The Avanti is sort of a rarity, I only see them at car shows as well.

However I never liked their styling, sort of an oddball looking car.

Mr_Shiftright

The Mazda RX-7 twin turbo is an awesome car....blindingly fast, even by today's standards, and a great handling car. The TT is a true sports car in every respect and will give fits to most very expensive, very fast 2007 model cars. You could spank most "hot" turbos, most Mustangs, most Porsches and you are not so far from Corvette territory, perhaps .5 to 1.0 seconds.

But alas, the engine is prone to detonation and if driven hard, will not last that long.

Pretty car, too, especially black on black IMO. Prettiest Japanese car ever made IMO and still looks good today, 14 years later.

All this for a measly $15,000 bucks. Best bargain out there if you ask me, in terms of bang for the buck.

m1miata

Your so right! The current RX-8 is different looking, but not the beauty of the one before the rather odd change in style. Bring back the RX-7 look, it really was awesome. Someone brings one to the Cayucos Car Show every year -- not sure about this year though, but I may have just missed seeing him.
-Loren

Mr_Shiftright

It's a pretty car for a 1993 model I think. Not dated at all.

Here's a brand new Porsche Cayman for comparison...14 years newer:

oregonboy

The only dated design element on the Gen III RX-7 is the hidden headlights. Now headlights are a major design feature... too much so in some cases.

I can recall reading that the sheet metal on the Gen IIIs was so thin and/or soft that they could be dented if you leaned up against them.

I know they are not collectable, but I've always liked the look of the Gen II convertible. This one has been on craigslist for months, could it be priced just a tad bit too high?

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/car/281409038.html

But I would really rather own this (also probably never more that a 3rd tier)

http://home.san.rr.com/mab/m3/m3.htm

james

oregonboy

Oh, and here's a Gen III for Mr. S:

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/car/281227046.html

Mr_Shiftright

Nice color, low miles, I like it!

Yep that's true...hidden headlights are a bit passe

m1miata

Love those hidden lights. Too bad they disappeared, or should I say, no longer disappeared on the new Corvette. Had them on my Stealth. Ah, the Dodge Stealth was a beauty. Own a new Accord now, and I think that is plenty enough bling to the headlamps. Some day the headlamps and tailights on the Altima will wrap so far around they will touch in the middle of the car. :surprise:
-Loren

andre1969

to be a feature that gave a car a futuristic look. At least, until one of them stops working and you have a '79 T-bird that looks like it's winking at you, or worse, some sleek model with pop-up lights, with one forever stuck in the up position.

I don't really care for this current trend of oversized headlight clusters on cars. IMO, the bigger the headlights, the smaller it makes the car look. Plus, with bigger clusters you end up with a smaller grille, and that just throws off the whole proportioning, IMO. I don't really like the style of the '07 Camry, but the one feature I do like, is that they shrunk the headlights to what I feel is a more appropriate size for the front of the car.

boomchek

I don't really like the style of the '07 Camry, but the one feature I do like, is that they shrunk the headlights to what I feel is a more appropriate size for the front of the car.

100% agreed. The lightsa of the previous Camry were a bit too big. Even worse were the lights on the Lexus ES330.

texases

This is my big gripe w/Toyota. As you might guess, I have a '96 ES300, and have been disappointed by each subsequent restyle. For a time the ES looked better than the Camry, then the last version had the (OK) Camry better than the goggle-eyed ES. As for the current ES/Camry, I can't find a good line on either one of them (but yes, at least the headlights aren't terrible).

andre1969

As you might guess, I have a '96 ES300, and have been disappointed by each subsequent restyle.

I've been picked on for admitting this, but I always thought the two generations (93-97 and 98-01?) of ES300 were beautiful cars. Part of it was the pillared hardtop look that made their style extra smooth, but I just thought they had a clean, classy look to them. The lines and proportions were perfect on the car.

I thought they really messed up with the ES330, though. It just looked fat and ungainly to me. And the way the headlights were peeled back, it made me think of those glasses old ladies sometimes wear. I think they call them "Dame Edna" glasses? Or perhaps an aging movie star that has seen a few too many facelifts.

I kinda like the new ES350, though.

texases

Good to hear I'm not a nut for liking my ES. I've been looking to replace it, but haven't found it yet. And yes, the following generation was good, but for some reason I find the headlights less distinctive. I saw a new Caddy STS yesterday, and it has the same headlight treatment as my ES, just vertical. Guess I'll run it till it drops...

fintail

The worst lights are on the Camry/Solara coupe...the weird stretched head and taillights that remind me of a woman with a few too many facelifts.

Toyota and styling...not a good track record there.

texases

Yep - it seems they got started down this weird headlight path with the 1999 (2000?) Celica. Maybe that's one reason it's gone...and that's why it won't be a future classic (just to get back on track

Mr_Shiftright

Toyota seems to have a knack for designing unoffensive, critic-free blandness...I guess you could say Scion "kicked up its heels" but er...not in a good way....and Prius is...well....it has an excuse....but all in all every Toyota on the planet seems to just disappear into pleasant obscurity. They are extremely conservative in their styling, which is why, I guess, so many people still buy white bread?

One thing "classics" are not is ordinary in their design.

I guess you could say the MR2 was different than most....

texases

Sad, really - at one point you could pick between a turbo Supra, a high-output Celica, and the MR2. Now, what, the Scion Tc?

m1miata

1993 Celica was a fine, and very smooth flowing design. Love the front on those. The last Supra was very good looking, as well as, very fast sports car. Pretty much a classic.
-Loren

m1miata

Perhaps those new headlamps are today's chrome bumpers, emblems, fins, bullet noses, and grill works. They are the new accents and trendy workings. Like the fins era, they may be getting over-done to the highest degree! Ya know, I just got an Accord, and kinda like the headlamps. Maybe it adds a bit of glitter where needed, without being too - too much. Also noted are chrome bans, which are a good thing. For some time, it seems like bland was getting to be the common element of all new cars. At least we know have some reemergence of a once chromed world of cars. That said, I too was guilty of cursing all that chrome and strips of glitter on cars of a Buick -America, once foreign and domestic sporty cars had but rubber bumpers, no chrome, and well a more Euro look. Now, in looking back, I am kinda wanting for just a little chrome, or accents here or there. Well maybe. I don't long for bench seats however. Perhaps I do though for a classic car. Recall the days when two drivers were seen in many cars? Now that is a classic. :shades:
-Loren

Mr_Shiftright

Okay, I called up a '93 photo and stared at it....it's not happening for me.

It's not BAD at all...as you say, smooth harmonious, decent performance, but not very exciting or interesting. An empty beach is smooth and harmonious :shades: Maybe they covet them more in Japan, but here in the USA if you look at Celica book values it's pretty bad. It's the Supra coupe that's holding up the Toyota "classic" reputation. So, 14 years later and you can buy them for $1,500?---this Celica is going nowhere IMO. Not the car's fault...it's just lost in a sea of look-alike Japanese coupes, and the buying public seems to have reacted to this.

I don't think there is yet a mass production Japanese car on the planet that is going to be a top-tier "classic"....maybe maybe someday the Supra turbo coupe.....but there are a few second-tier cars with a limited audience.

Ironically one of the most valuable Japanese old car right now that was in mass production is the Land Cruiser FJ40!!

andre1969

was the style that ran from around 1986-89. It had a clean, chiseled, sleek look to it that I think is pleasing. The next generation (1990-93?) isn't bad, but I just don't care for the more rounded, curvy look as much. And then I think they totally lost it when they went for that look with the separate round quad headlights that made it look like a bad movie monster from the 70's or, at best, "The Outer Limits".

With Supras, I think my favorite style is the 1987-91. It's clean, sleek, and a bit chiseled, but not near as boxy as the earlier models. But not as over-the-top as the final Supra, which I find to be a bit buffoon-ish.

kyfdx

I liked the '77 liftback version of the Celica.. lusted after it, but couldn't afford it, considering I was making $2.30/hr.. :surprise:

My favorite Supra was the '83-'85 version..

I think that is all related to how old you are when they come out..

texases

Yes, black '83-'85 in particular - for some reason that "Darth Vader" look worked on it.

boomchek

I liked the looks of that chiseled Supra as well. Very wedgy but well done.

texases

And in black:

texases

Looking at the photos reminded me - this preference only applies to the P (performance) model. The L model didn't have the fender flares or spoiler/sunshade, and the narrower wheels didn't look good. Kind of like the difference between a 924 and a 944.

fintail

I liked those a lot when I was a kid...I still think they look decent

hpmctorque

I don't know if anyone has mentioned the all electric powered Tesla Roadster, to be introduced later this year, but this sports car should be a candidate. Check back in 2032 to see if I'm correct.