What Will Be a Future Classic?

kyfdx

Speaking of wedge shapes...

In the paper today.. Triumph TR7, good condition, runs (it had to be said), idles rough, $4200 (!!??!!)

Isn't a TR7 collectible? :surprise:

texases

Another case of decimal point mis-location :P

Mr_Shiftright

TR7: Another classic example of "Unloved when new, unloved now". This might be the Jensen-Healey of the 1980s.

oregonboy

Loved: nice, original E30 M3 (crazy asking price)
http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/car/354353487.html

Unloved: sold at a premium to a few misguided early-adopters, now on a buy-here/pay-here lot.
http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/car/355054733.html

james

oregonboy

Rare, but unloved. Destined never to be collectable, but probably a decent summertime cruiser.

Infinity M30 Convertible

Mr_Shiftright

The Crossfire was much too expensive for what you got and I warned them to take it to the gym and trim down that big butt!

fintail

I remember when those came out, I went to take a look, and the bozos wanted like 6K over sticker for it!

mlhm5

I bought a LR Defender 90 and took delivery in Dec '96. I sold it last week for $45K, which is more than I paid for it with all the options.

There is your future classic, a 1996 LR Defender 90.

british_rover

It couldn't have been a 1996 though as they didn't make 1996 Defenders.

They made 110s in 1993.

And they made D90s with manuals in 1994 and 1995.

They skipped 1996 and made only D90 automatics in 1997.

Our master tech knows a guy who bought a D110 new back in 1993 when he worked for Metro West Land Rover as a sales guide. He paid full list which was around 40,000 dollars.

He sold it back to the same dealer a few years later for close to 100,000 dollars.

Mr_Shiftright

Let's see in another ten years what they sell for.

hpmctorque

For Andre and other Mopar fans...

A new book chronicles the history of every engine built by Chrysler Corp. from 1922 through 1998.

The history begins with the six-cylinder engine Walter P. Chrysler developed when he was working for Maxwell Motor Corp. The lightweight, high-compression engine powered the first Chrysler Corp. vehicle, the 1924 Chrysler Six.

"Chrysler Engines, 1922-1998," scheduled to be published in October, includes 446 illustrations of engines and vehicles, section views of engines, specification tables, time lines and stories. Written by retired Chrysler chief engineer Bill Weertman, the book is available from the Society of Automotive Engineers. Order it from www.sae.org; type the book's product code, R-365, into the search engine.

bigblockrulz

I bet you all the retro-looking modern muscle cars, Corette Z06, and Viper will definitely be the future classic cars.

martian

I've only seen TWO of these in my life. The first time, I saw a brand new one, parked outside a blue-collar bar! (It belonged to a local builder). The second one was for sale at a CADILLAC dealer! (owner must have taken a bath on trade-in). As I understand it, M-B was trying to add a "LEXUS" to their line-but (outside of walnut trim) did this marque ffer a filthy-rich buyer? The car is butt-ugly; looks like a Korean knock-off. It has an enormous V-12 engine (and a thirst for high-test to match), but what kind of statement does it make? My guess: "Everybody-look at me! I paid $300K for an overpriced POS-WHY don't yu acknowledge me??
I can't imagine this car being a collectable! :sick:

Mr_Shiftright

It'll probably end up like an 80s era Rolls Royce---virtually worthless (relative to its MSRP I mean).

british_rover

I sat in one that a client of mine owned.

It was the long wheel base 62 I think. It was impressive but not in a good way.

Mr_Shiftright

I think the world is luxuried-out, in the West anyway. Now that $40,000 cars are quite luxurious, in order to top it you have to get really crass and deliver something over the top. It's ironic that the nouveau-riche are now getting tasteful cars and the really rich tasteless ones. Most amusing.

texases

Which is worse, the Maybach or the Rolls?

british_rover

The Maybach is worse IMO.

Mr_Shiftright

I think the Rolls is absolutely hideous; the Maybach is simply boring to look at IMO.

texases

Yes, you'd think the Maybach would be more imposing/impressive than the MB S class, but it's just non-descript. Even worse from Rolls (IMHO) is this-

Mr_Shiftright

Bentley does a better job than both I think:

british_rover

I rode around in an Arnage T last year and that is a fabulous car. I agree it is better then all the other Ulta-Luxury brands.

andre1969

I'd say they're both hideous, but I think the Maybach is worse. The Rolls looks kinda like a Peterbilt front-end got stuck onto an oversized 1980 Seville, but that Maybach just looks like a gussied up Kia Amanti.

The Rolls, while ugly, still imparts an expensive look to it, while the Maybach just looks like it's posing. If this was the 1970's, that Rolls would still be a Rolls, but the Maybach would be a Granada. Versailles at best.

andre1969

Yuck! That Rolls convertible makes me think of an automotive equivalent of Groucho Marx! The way the turn signals form an "eyebrow" over the headlights just looks goofy. Also makes me think of some child's toy, like a Mr. Potato-head or something. It also makes me think of some of those pimpy cars of the late 70's/early 80's that normally would have had hidden headlights, but because neo-classicism was so big at the time, they'd graft a single headlight onto the cover and make it stationary. The Mark VI did this, and I'm sure the setup was available for other cars.

Mr_Shiftright

sigh...more cars for overpaid movie stars to crash and turn into scrap metal for Turkish tea pots

texases

Absolutely! They've combined classy, impressive, good-looking, and great performance. Not to mention, using all that idle capacity on the VW Phaeton line :P

british_rover

The Arnage doesn't use the Phaeton platform though.

The Continental GT and the Flying Spur use the Phaeton Platform.

Mr_Shiftright

I remember when working for Benz, seeing a photo of the son of a wealthy family (I forgot which maniac), strapped upside down, dead drunk in a crashed Mercedes 600 SWB limo with his hair dyed green.

I really do fear for these ostentatious cars.

texases

Right you are - I've not seen an Arnage in Dallas, just several Continentals -

fintail

The Rolls is no beauty queen, but the Maybach is much worse, like a S-class with a Daewoo grille and a pretentious interior. The Rolls wins simply for the name and grille. Maybach died before the war, and has yet to be reborn, this car doesn't count. Few original Maybachs were attractive as well, mainly frumpy cars for government officials.

I agree the Bentley handles any idea of elegance or at least tolerable looks a lot better.

Mr_Shiftright

It's looking dangerously close to a Lincoln Town Car though!

fintail

It has a certain blandness to it. The coupe is better looking.

The Bentley I really mean is the Arnage though. It has a character all its own.

martian

The previous poster nailed it-MAYBACH must have hired the laid-off DAEWOO people! It looks like a LEGANZA on steroids!
Seriously-what was the blurb about 160 MPH cruising all about? I don't doubt the V-12 engine is capable, but driving ANYWHERE in the USA (at anywhere NEAR 160 MPH) will get you an automatic license revocation (and a stretch in jail). What is owning one of these horrors supposed to "project"??

Mr_Shiftright

When you have that much money, cars like Maybach are basically "free" compared to the fortunes amassed. It's like buying a loaf of bread for some people. I don't even think they think about it as a statement anymore. It's just a whim, like a t-shirt you buy at the beach.

fintail

Good taste and extreme wealth are not compatible yet again

british_rover

A client of one of my co-workers who buys two range rovers every two years, one for him and one for his wife, just invited my co-worker to the delivery part for his new jet.

He is getting a Challenger 300 and I don't have a clue how much one coats but it must be in the tens of millions of dollars.

Mr_Shiftright

I'd like one,thank you.

Actually buying one is only part of the problem. Maintenance and operating costs are a real nosebleed. I've seen even very (VERY) wealthy people in Aspen scream like stuck pigs when they get their maintenance bills and calculate yearly costs. It has to be a write-off, you simply can't justify it recreationally. Even when it just sits there in the hanger, the meter is ticking...no...spinning....

british_rover

Yeah this will be his companies new main corporate jet and so is a 100% business expense. He started this software company that basically prints money.

andre1969

I'd like one,thank you.

You may think that you want one, but what you REALLY want is a good friend who has one. Kinda like boats, motorhomes, and swimming pools.

Mr_Shiftright

Even my rich friends gave up their jet-shares and went to an occasional rental. When you can make a multi-millionaire winch with a Bill Due, that's impressive!! Some of these jet-share plans really rip you.

I suppose a Maybach is a small scale example of the same thing, although I think a good used jet is a lot easier to re-sell.

hpmctorque

Maybe the smart way - relatively speaking - to own a Maybach, for those who really want one, but don't want to be eaten alive by the cost of ownership, is to buy a well maintained 4 or 5 year old one for, say, 1/3 of the new car cost, and drive it no more than 5,000 miles/year, to control maintenance costs.

andre1969

Yeah, doing something like that might work. I wonder how fast a Maybach depreciates?

british_rover

Yeah, doing something like that might work. I wonder how fast a Maybach depreciates?

equal to the terminal velocity of a Maybach dropped out of an airplane.

martian

Who in his right mind will buy one of these turkeys, once M-B ceases production? The spare parts will be unobtanium, and the car has no historical roots. Its just a big overpriced status symbol, made to sell to the noveau riche who are clueless. How many Cadillac ALLANTEs do you see today? The market rejected them when they were new. I personally think the old car collectors are starting to die off now-and these oddballs will sit around for a looong time, before they attract buyers.

Mr_Shiftright

Depends how cheap they get...you'd think no one in his right mind would buy an 80s era Rolls Royce but once they fell to around $12,000, there were plenty of buyers who couldn't afford a new hub cap for one ($400 each) much less to fix them or keep them running. Ditto old Jaguar XJ6s (now down to around $1,500) and old Benz 560SELs, now down to $4,000 or so.

andre1969

I can almost see the rationale with a used Rolls, Benz, or Jag, because people have grown up with those things being considered status symbols all their lives, so when the purchase price becomes within reach, they grab for it, not necessarily thinking through the ramifications of maintenance and repairs. Heck, I even find myself seduced by some of those old Jags and Benzes...especially those big W126 models like Fintail had, and those big hardtops.

I guess I just don't see that happening with the Maybach. First, it just doesn't have the name value/heritage thing going for it. People haven't lusted after them all their lives. Plus, I just don't see the styling as all that exciting, exotic, or even handsome, and I doubt the car could ever lure anybody in on styling alone.

In a similar fashion, I guess it's why people go for stuff like used Cadillacs, Lincolns, etc, because it's a way to go ritzy and hedonistic for not a lot of money. I'm just glad that with the type of "luxury" cars I go for, when something does break, I can usually find a replacement part off a Dart or Plymouth copcar or something!

hpmctorque

"...you'd think no one in his right mind would buy an 80s era Rolls Royce but once they fell to around $12,000, there were plenty of buyers..."

True enough, the supply and demand curve crosses at a certain price on virtually every car on the planet. To cite an exaggerated example, maybe you wouldn't be tempted at $50,000, because at that price point there are many alternatives that might be more appealing. But at $5,000 many would be tempted to buy one that's in decent condition, even if it was to drive it for a few days and then flip it for a profit.

I happen to agree with the negatives you listed for the Maybach, Andre, but would you buy one for $5,000, or swap an '04, the year the Maybach was introduced, for your Intrepid or Silverado?

Incidentally, I couldn't find the appraisal value for the Maybach. It's NA on Edmunds, and the Maybach isn't listed in the online KBB that I checked. Does anyone know the value of an '04 57 Sedan, in outstanding or good condition, with, say 30,000 miles? Ebay Motors has an '06 57 with 5,300 miles listed for $249,999, and an '04 with 22,837 for $100,000. That's too wide a range to determine what the real market value is, but regardless, it'll be many years before they fall into my price range. Fortunately, I don't lust for one.

andre1969

I happen to agree with the negatives you listed for the Maybach, Andre, but would you buy one for $5,000, or swap an '04, the year the Maybach was introduced, for your Intrepid or Silverado?

Nah, hate to say it, but I think I'd have to pass on a Maybach, even if they were devalued down to $5K, or to the point that I could swap my aging Intrepid or rag-tag Silverado for one. About the only way I could see myself ending up with one might be the same way I ended up with my Grandma's '85 LeSabre a few years back. My Grandmother lost her license and signed the car over to me. My uncle and I both used it for awhile as a spare car. But then I bought my Intrepid, and then my '79 5th Ave, and my uncle bought an '03 Corolla to supplement his truck. Then, my Mom talked about selling me her pickup real cheap, and the brakes went out on the LeSabre, so we got rid of it.

The pickup is more useful to me than a Maybach would be, so it just wouldn't make sense to me. And I'm sure fuel economy and maintenance would kill its perceived value to me, compared to the Intrepid.

Now if it was something that I was really attracted to, that might be a different story. For instance, I've liked the '67 Catalina, '76 LeMans, and '79 New Yorker ever since I was a little kid. And I fell in love with the '57 DeSoto the first time I saw a picture of one. And none of those are exactly practical cars. But a Maybach just doesn't do it for me. So I guess for me, there just has to be heritage. And I don't mean heritage in an historic sense, necessarily, but heritage in my frame of reference. As in, those were cars that have been in my mind for a long time, and for whatever reason, they've inspired some wanting, or lust in my mind.

I guess I'm just lucky that I have fairly cheap tastes, or I'd be bankrupt by now!

Oh, I tried looking for a used Maybach at www.autobytel.com. I did a nationwide search for the 57 model, but it didn't return any results at all, and I was too lazy to look up any of the others.

fintail

A W126 isn't bad compared to a Jag or RR, if it has been maintained. I have a thing for them too, a handsome timeless design. I don't think I have driven a higher quality car...although my fintail is pretty well finished too.

texases

Check out the 'completed items', you'll see a few 2004s that got bid up to about $140,000, 'reserve not met', of course - the owners refuse to accept what the Ebay market is telling them.