A couple of months ago I read that Daimler-Chrysler (perhaps has early as next week the company will have a different name) is considering discontinuing the Maybach marque, due to disappointing sales. If that should happen, prices on used Maybachs may take a hit. Moral: Don't buy your 57 or 67 just yet.
My guess is that they will bottom out around $60K-80K and hang there for a while, then slowly decline over the years. Kinda like the Mercedes 600s, which are now as low as $25,000 for the higher mileage ones. Ditto old Rolls and Bentleys, unless they are open cars. I could have bought a very clean Corniche coupe with a bad transmission and four flat tires (and no brakes) for $7,000. But $4000 trans, $6000 brakes and $1000 tires, without ever driving the car first, didn't leave any room for profit vs. risk.
I wonder if the Maybach will ever get to the point that they're so cheap that farmers buy them up, cut the back half off, and make flatbed trucks out of them?
...I wouldn't take a Maybach if somebody gave it to me as a gift! The maintenance and insurance costs alone would bankrupt me!
I look into my crystal ball...It's 2014. I see a 2004 Maybach 57 sitting on a BHPH lot in lower Northeast Philadelphia along with a lot of other out-of-warranty luxury cars. Here comes Mr. Poseur! He's 27 years old and he's got his bimbo girlfriend with him! Mr. Poseur just got a promotion to some meaningless entry-level management position at some nameless big box store...
Here comes Mr. Slimeball the salesguy covered in hollow gold chains, wearing dark glasses and a chili-stained Hawaiian shirt. He reeks of imitation Drakkar, sweat, and thousands of departed Dutch Masters cigars...
Mr. Slimeball makes a deal with Mr. Poseur! It's only $200 a week for 520 weeks! Mr. Poseur signs and is happy. Miss Bimbo is impressed! They drive back to their one-bedroom apartment in their circa 1960 complex in some marginal neighborhood and park their new prize next to all the other 10-15 year old Lexi, Benzes, and Bimmers. Their neighbors Guido, Pookie, and Bebe are impressed. Pookie says, "Nice ride, Poseur" as he takes a swig from his 40-ouncer.
It's four months later! Mr. Poseur's Maybach needs brakes! Mr. Poseur's Maybach needs tires! Mr. Poseur's Maybach's tranny is acting funny! Mr. Poseur just ain't makin' enough on his $33K salary. Mr. Poseur can't keep up with his $200 weekly payments, the insurance costs, and maintenance costs! Mr. Poseur should have never traded the 2009 Kia which he was upside-down $5,000 for the Maybach. Mr. Slimeball still wants to be paid. Mr. Slimeball sends Mr. Thug to repo Poseur's ride...
Now it's 2039. I see a very tired, faded, ratty Maybach 57 sitting next to the remains of a 1968 Dart GT on somebody's property in rural Maryland...
"...Now it's 2039. I see a very tired, faded, ratty Maybach 57 sitting next to the remains of a 1968 Dart GT on somebody's property in rural Maryland..."
Long before then the Maybach brand will have joined such once revered names as Deusenberg, Cord, Auburn, Kaiser-Frazer, Crosley, Packard, Studebaker, Nash, Hudson, Willys, Edsel, Oldsmobile, Plymouth, Isotta Fraschini, Austin, Triumph, Rover, and Panhard, just to name a few that come quickly to mind. I doubt that the current resurrected Maybach will see it's 10th anniversary of production, in 2013(?).
...the Saturn Sky and Pontiac Solstice. What will be hurt is the Dodge Challenger as it is not really a two-door hardtop, but just a two-door sedan. Darn beancounters!
Sky and Solstice? Naah, they'll end up regular old 2-seat convertibles like the Boxster or the last MR-2. They don't have any particular hook to draw in future interest.
ending up in sort of the same situation as the '76 Eldorado convertible. Right now people are speculating on them and driving the prices up, but in a few years, I'm sure people are going to be selling them at a huge loss.
I'm sure there will be some market for them, and they'll probably be one of the few cars from 2009 that has some sort of collectability to it. But I think its status will be more on par with something like a '76 Eldorado convertible, rather than a Camaro with the right engine or a '57 Chevy Fuelie.
I think bumpy is right on this one, lemko, if the fate of early Miatas (say '90, '91) is an indication. The Solstice and Sky may become special interest cars some day, but probably not classics.
The Sky may do better than the Solstice but I don't see any more near-term future for these cars than I do for the Miata. Hard to say what's 40 years down the road, but 40 years is about what it took for an MGB to be worth more than chump change. And the same year Healey is still worth 3X the MGB.
You know, it's hard for a car to overcome humble beginnings unless the public went nuts over it like the Mustang. Solstice is already disappearing from the public's view or interest. Sky is still a good seller. Pontiac name is dirt right now, Saturn's name a bit more appealing. I'd put my money on the Sky to be a second tier "special interest" car in 20 years but never a big buck collectible.
Depends on how they hold up. If they fall apart, they might end up in the Allante'/Fiero camp with a 8 people worldwide that will defend them to the death and nobody else cares enought to argue with them.
The early '90s Mercury Capri was the first American answer to the Miata. Some people claimed it was a better car than the Miata. Where are they now?
Regarding the Aussie Capri, there were high expectations because the styling was (supposedly) based on a very good-looking Ford show car. Didn't turn out that way, unfortunately.
It was the second coming of the Scirocco, unfortunately nobody cared much. At first, it had a cobby supercharged 4 later replaced by the VR6. The Probe GT, Integra GS-R, and the Diamond Star cars all offered a better performance to dollar ratio. I wouldn't mind having one, but they are pretty hard to come by.
be closet classics especially if it's in cherry cond.. Today's hybrid tech will be ancient 20 years from now, therefore a cherry example of the first regular looking sedan with hybrid tech will be hot!
An interesting argument but looking back, did the "first of something" really have a free pass into the Automotive Haul of Fame? Like the first minivan, or first hatchback, or first mass produced passenger sedan with turbo-charging or first mass produced sedan with electronic fuel injection?
Nope. The Saab 900 turbo and VW squareback and MGB-GT are hardly big buck classics. The 23-window VW bus does have some collectibility, however, but I'm not so sure this is due to the "first minivan" status as much as the age of the Hippies.
You could be right, stranger things have happened, but my two cents is that the Camry Hybrid will be as valuable as a Tandy 100 computer is now.
Thanks for the feedback. I'm personally hopeful that is will be a cool piece becuase I'll still have mine 20 years ahead due to how buried I'm in it. haha!
On a similar thread...you know how rich collectors buy old cars and put them in a room and call it a collection. I would do it a little diff, I would buy examples of mainstream cars today, build a underground bunker in the Nev desert and make sure the temp is controlled adn leave em there for a while, drain the fluids of course.
Wouldn't it be cool to have a few late 70's and early 80's honda's and toyota's today, not to mention some cool nissan 210's sweet!!!
It seems to me that, because of their complexity and the cost of repairs, not to mention their commuter car performance characteristics, few hybrid cars are destined to become classics. Three that might make it, however, because of their innovative qualities and pioneer status, are the first generation Prius (1997-2000, although the early model years were not available in the U.S.), the Honda Insight (2000-2006), and the Chevy Volt. These have been mentioned before in this discussion, but I'm sharing my thoughts here on hybrids as future classics.
Honda revealed that it will soon introduce a new slightly-smaller-than-Civic five passenger hybrid, on a unique platform, to compete directly with the Prius. Like the current Prius, I predict the new Insight will be a throw-away car; that it, drive it 12-15 years or 150,000-200,000 miles, whichever comes first, then throw it away when it's used up.
Although there's no strict definition of throw-away car, the term has generally been applied to the lowest cost models that aren't worth the expense of major repairs. Although the current Prius and new generation Insight may arguably last longer than past and current throw-aways, because they're Toyotas and Hondas, they also follow the "use-em-up, throw-them-away" pattern.
Another exception that could eventually become a classic is the (2010?) Honda CR-V. This will be the spiritual successor to the Honda CRX, a very popular model.
I would suspect some of them will become "curiosities" and be "collected" but I can't see them as classics, because they don't have any of the *major* characteristics of a full-blooded classic, these "major" ones being beauty, rarity and power and dominance in their class.
They do however, have some of the minor characteristics of classics, which, standing alone, aren't enough, but worth mentioning as well: popularity upon introduction and interesting engineering.
One could argue that beauty, rarity and power and performance will not be required for future classics, but you know, I rather doubt that, especially since there are still beautiful, low production and powerful cars being made right now.
So I'd say, odds-wise, it's not going to happen. The hybrids are ugly, albeit interesting, and there are far too many of them.
Maybe if all but ten of them disappear in the future, then that would help. But almost 200,000 Priuses aren't going away anytime soon.
Sounds funny, but I do know such a person, and he fits the stereotype now forming in your head. :P
I think museums should collect them, however, at least the more interesting ones. I think the Henry Ford Museum should have a Prius, definitely. And a Volt, if it ever actually happens.
Another exception that could eventually become a classic is the (2010?) Honda CR-V. This will be the spiritual successor to the Honda CRX, a very popular model.
You mean the Honda CR-Z right? The CR-V is the SUV.
The first ever Hybrid apparently is the 1917 Woods Dual Power, and it's sitting in the Petersen Automotive Museum unrestored in it's original form and condition:
Sorry about the blurry photos. Many parts of that museum have low light.
As a car that's often cited as what was wrong with GM, I predict that this crossover, or whatever it was, will one day find a niche among collectors. It'll appear at shows with other oddities with a following, such as the Pacer, the Fiero and those plastic bodies GM minivans with the vacuum cleaner-like front ends.
I know its difficult to imagine that these GM vehicles will ever have a following, but I believe they will, if only a limited one. Actually, the Fiero already qualifies as a collector car with a limited following.
None of the models mentioned above is a classic, of course, but this discussion seems to have evolved to include special interest vehicles.
You mean as a kind of homely orphan curiosity? Perhaps. One never knows. The problem with that "destiny" is that even when "collectible" they are not even close to being worth a restoration, so that the only ones you'll see are original survivors that don't need restoration.
And the thought of someone having stashed away an Aztek seems rather bizarre.
But perhaps it would become a bottom-tier collectible because 99% of them were disposed of.
If you have the last example of something, that kind of makes it collectible by default.
At the risk of being flamed and ridiculed, I'll add that the later Azteks (the '02s and '03s?), without the cladding on the sides, were significantly less offensive to the eye than the earlier ones, at least in my eyes. That change was ordered by Bob Lutz. Now that did nothing for whatever mechanical shortcomings the Aztek may have had, but it could be argued that removing the cladding transformed the Aztek from being ugly to just being quirky.
The Aztek did have an unusual redeeming attribute, in that it could be optioned for camping.
I think the biggest problem is that the 3.4 V-6 engine the Aztek used had a plastic intake manifold that tended to crack, and would let the oil and antifreeze mix. If you caught it in time, I don't think the fix was too catastrophic, but if you went too long you could destroy the engine. For the most part though, I think they tended to fail around 80,000 miles and beyond. Out of warranty, of course.
Well maybe the "Camping Aztek" would be unusual enough to get noticed some years from now, but the regular Aztek, cladding or not, is really just a nothing used car, with no history, no glory, no accomplishments and very few friends. I don't see much hope for it. It's just a minivan-like thing after all, when all is said and done.
Of course, after 40 years, large American station wagons became collectible---but again, only after 99% of them were destroyed.
I think most Aztek owners will be dead before their cars become collectible--but with current medical gains in longevity, I could be wrong :P
On the subject of loser cars ultimately having some fame later on down the road, how long did it take before the Edsel started to become desireable? And nowadays, how would an Edsel's value compare to an equivalent Mercury or Ford?
Well the Edsel is a classic case of "bad publicity is better than no publicity at all" ringing quite true.
However, if you look *closely* at Edsel values, you'll see that only the rarest models with the best options are really worth anything. A banged up old Edsel 4-door sedan is worth no more than any old Ford or Mercury of the same vintage.
The Aztek is basically one model of car and even with different options, they don't vary very much one from the other. If you could have ordered a supercharged Aztek with full-length sunroof and special paint and suspension, well that's different.
An Edsel could be had as a convertible with larger engine options as well, and a bewildering array of other optional equipment.
Comments
So few change hands that he might not know.
I look into my crystal ball...It's 2014. I see a 2004 Maybach 57 sitting on a BHPH lot in lower Northeast Philadelphia along with a lot of other out-of-warranty luxury cars. Here comes Mr. Poseur! He's 27 years old and he's got his bimbo girlfriend with him! Mr. Poseur just got a promotion to some meaningless entry-level management position at some nameless big box store...
Here comes Mr. Slimeball the salesguy covered in hollow gold chains, wearing dark glasses and a chili-stained Hawaiian shirt. He reeks of imitation Drakkar, sweat, and thousands of departed Dutch Masters cigars...
Mr. Slimeball makes a deal with Mr. Poseur! It's only $200 a week for 520 weeks! Mr. Poseur signs and is happy. Miss Bimbo is impressed! They drive back to their one-bedroom apartment in their circa 1960 complex in some marginal neighborhood and park their new prize next to all the other 10-15 year old Lexi, Benzes, and Bimmers. Their neighbors Guido, Pookie, and Bebe are impressed. Pookie says, "Nice ride, Poseur" as he takes a swig from his 40-ouncer.
It's four months later! Mr. Poseur's Maybach needs brakes! Mr. Poseur's Maybach needs tires! Mr. Poseur's Maybach's tranny is acting funny! Mr. Poseur just ain't makin' enough on his $33K salary. Mr. Poseur can't keep up with his $200 weekly payments, the insurance costs, and maintenance costs! Mr. Poseur should have never traded the 2009 Kia which he was upside-down $5,000 for the Maybach. Mr. Slimeball still wants to be paid. Mr. Slimeball sends Mr. Thug to repo Poseur's ride...
Now it's 2039. I see a very tired, faded, ratty Maybach 57 sitting next to the remains of a 1968 Dart GT on somebody's property in rural Maryland...
:shades:
Lemko, please. I would NEVER disgrace my yard or my '68 Dart in that manner! :P
One can go into marginal areas even here and see sickly W140 S-class and downtrodden late 90s 7ers.
Long before then the Maybach brand will have joined such once revered names as Deusenberg, Cord, Auburn, Kaiser-Frazer, Crosley, Packard, Studebaker, Nash, Hudson, Willys, Edsel, Oldsmobile, Plymouth, Isotta Fraschini, Austin, Triumph, Rover, and Panhard, just to name a few that come quickly to mind. I doubt that the current resurrected Maybach will see it's 10th anniversary of production, in 2013(?).
I'm sure there will be some market for them, and they'll probably be one of the few cars from 2009 that has some sort of collectability to it. But I think its status will be more on par with something like a '76 Eldorado convertible, rather than a Camaro with the right engine or a '57 Chevy Fuelie.
You know, it's hard for a car to overcome humble beginnings unless the public went nuts over it like the Mustang. Solstice is already disappearing from the public's view or interest. Sky is still a good seller. Pontiac name is dirt right now, Saturn's name a bit more appealing. I'd put my money on the Sky to be a second tier "special interest" car in 20 years but never a big buck collectible.
The early '90s Mercury Capri was the first American answer to the Miata. Some people claimed it was a better car than the Miata. Where are they now?
Nope. The Saab 900 turbo and VW squareback and MGB-GT are hardly big buck classics. The 23-window VW bus does have some collectibility, however, but I'm not so sure this is due to the "first minivan" status as much as the age of the Hippies.
You could be right, stranger things have happened, but my two cents is that the Camry Hybrid will be as valuable as a Tandy 100 computer is now.
On a similar thread...you know how rich collectors buy old cars and put them in a room and call it a collection. I would do it a little diff, I would buy examples of mainstream cars today, build a underground bunker in the Nev desert and make sure the temp is controlled adn leave em there for a while, drain the fluids of course.
Wouldn't it be cool to have a few late 70's and early 80's honda's and toyota's today, not to mention some cool nissan 210's sweet!!!
I wouldn't mind having a brand spankin' new Datsun 510 coupe or Mazda RX-3 coupe to drive around.
Honda revealed that it will soon introduce a new slightly-smaller-than-Civic five passenger hybrid, on a unique platform, to compete directly with the Prius. Like the current Prius, I predict the new Insight will be a throw-away car; that it, drive it 12-15 years or 150,000-200,000 miles, whichever comes first, then throw it away when it's used up.
Although there's no strict definition of throw-away car, the term has generally been applied to the lowest cost models that aren't worth the expense of major repairs. Although the current Prius and new generation Insight may arguably last longer than past and current throw-aways, because they're Toyotas and Hondas, they also follow the "use-em-up, throw-them-away" pattern.
Another exception that could eventually become a classic is the (2010?) Honda
CR-V. This will be the spiritual successor to the Honda CRX, a very popular model.
They do however, have some of the minor characteristics of classics, which, standing alone, aren't enough, but worth mentioning as well: popularity upon introduction and interesting engineering.
One could argue that beauty, rarity and power and performance will not be required for future classics, but you know, I rather doubt that, especially since there are still beautiful, low production and powerful cars being made right now.
So I'd say, odds-wise, it's not going to happen. The hybrids are ugly, albeit interesting, and there are far too many of them.
Maybe if all but ten of them disappear in the future, then that would help. But almost 200,000 Priuses aren't going away anytime soon.
Sounds funny, but I do know such a person, and he fits the stereotype now forming in your head. :P
I think museums should collect them, however, at least the more interesting ones. I think the Henry Ford Museum should have a Prius, definitely. And a Volt, if it ever actually happens.
CR-V. This will be the spiritual successor to the Honda CRX, a very popular model.
You mean the Honda CR-Z right? The CR-V is the SUV.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Sorry about the blurry photos. Many parts of that museum have low light.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
More:
The Woods Dual Power
Doesn't sound like it would be all that much fun to drive, however.
Not sure though if those wheels had low reisitance tires though :P
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
The Lohner-Porsche hybrid was about 15 years older, but I don't recall if that one was ever actually completed as a hybrid.
I know its difficult to imagine that these GM vehicles will ever have a following, but I believe they will, if only a limited one. Actually, the Fiero already qualifies as a collector car with a limited following.
None of the models mentioned above is a classic, of course, but this discussion seems to have evolved to include special interest vehicles.
And the thought of someone having stashed away an Aztek seems rather bizarre.
But perhaps it would become a bottom-tier collectible because 99% of them were disposed of.
If you have the last example of something, that kind of makes it collectible by default.
Not a GLORIOUS future, to be sure.
At the risk of being flamed and ridiculed, I'll add that the later Azteks (the '02s and '03s?), without the cladding on the sides, were significantly less offensive to the eye than the earlier ones, at least in my eyes. That change was ordered by Bob Lutz. Now that did nothing for whatever mechanical shortcomings the Aztek may have had, but it could be argued that removing the cladding transformed the Aztek from being ugly to just being quirky.
The Aztek did have an unusual redeeming attribute, in that it could be optioned for camping.
Unless they stashed it because they were ridiculed for buying it in the first place :surprise:
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Other than ugly were there other problems with the Aztek?
WVK
Other than that I don't think they were too bad.
Of course, after 40 years, large American station wagons became collectible---but again, only after 99% of them were destroyed.
I think most Aztek owners will be dead before their cars become collectible--but with current medical gains in longevity, I could be wrong :P
However, if you look *closely* at Edsel values, you'll see that only the rarest models with the best options are really worth anything. A banged up old Edsel 4-door sedan is worth no more than any old Ford or Mercury of the same vintage.
The Aztek is basically one model of car and even with different options, they don't vary very much one from the other. If you could have ordered a supercharged Aztek with full-length sunroof and special paint and suspension, well that's different.
An Edsel could be had as a convertible with larger engine options as well, and a bewildering array of other optional equipment.